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Napoleon route now

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Is the Napoleon route from St. Jean to Rocenvalles open now?
 
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After 1 April, the Pilgrim Office, #39 Rue de la Citadell, provides up to date conditions and forecasts. It is possible to encounter snow through the end of May.

Several years ago, after a spate of very serious rescues of unprepared and under-trained pilgrims on the mountain, local authorities imposed a blanket seasonal closing until 1 April. I do not recall what the starting date for the closure is.

All pilgrims should check in there to receive their first sello, and a current status briefing on the Napoleon Pass and onward...
 
After 1 April, the Pilgrim Office, #39 Rue de la Citadell, provides up to date conditions and forecasts. It is possible to encounter snow through the end of May.

Several years ago, after a spate of very serious rescues of unprepared and under-trained pilgrims on the mountain, local authorities imposed a blanket seasonal closing until 1 April. I do not recall what the starting date for the closure is.

All pilgrims should check in there to receive their first sello, and a current status briefing on the Napoleon Pass and onward...
I'm pretty sure the closure begins 1 November each year.
 
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
April 26, 2005 walked on about 3 feet of packed snow at the pass.
May 28, 2013 (memory???) pass was closed. Several small groups in trouble from ignoring the warnings.
Please follow t2andreo advice to check in SJPdP and FOLLOW THEIR RECOMMENDATION.
 
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Thank to all for usefull information. Crossed the route on April 6 in 2014. Will start on March 27 this year, but not in the footsteps of Napoleon.
The Valcarlos route is not a consolation prize... It is a beautiful walk up the valley with some stunning mountain trails. Plus it is easy to break into two stages by staying in Valcarlos if you choose. Enjoy!
 
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I have heard that, too and it makes sense. One would not march an army up a higher route when a lower one is available.


The Napoleonic war 1808/1814 in Iberia which is known as the Peninsular War had an impact on the Camino Frances near Roncesvalles and Pamplona.
Although Napoleon Bonaparte himself never was on this route the French troops were successful at the Battle of Roncesvalles 25 July 1813 against the British. Read more here of this event in the Peninsular war and check out the map of the battle.

Roncesvalles, Uppper Canada or Ontario, was named after the battle of Roncesvalles.
Colonel Walter O'Hara, who fought with the British in the battle, would after emigrating to Upper Canada mid-century name Roncesvalles Avenue in Toronto after the battle. The present neighborhood of Roncesvalles in turn gained its name from the street.
 
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I have heard that, too and it makes sense. One would not march an army up a higher route when a lower one is available.
It's actually the other way round. Until a new road was built in the Valcarlos valley around 1880, the higher route was the only one where coaches could travel and artillery (canons) could be transported during the time of Napoleon because sections of the old Valcarlos road were too steep for them. The higher road was in fact called Camino de la artillería o de Napoleón.

Napoleon's army used it while he himself travelled by coach to Spain, though neither on the lower road nor the higher road from SJPP but much further to the west. I think there's a map of his journey somewhere in a thread on this forum. So no walking in his footsteps ...
 
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The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
Until a new road was built in the Valcarlos valley around 1880, the higher route was the only one where coaches could travel and artillery (canons) could be transported during the time of Napoleon because sections of the old Valcarlos road were too steep for them.
"Steep sided valleys aren't great places to march armies during times of war" should have said Roland.
 
Thank to all for usefull information. Crossed the route on April 6 in 2014. Will start on March 27 this year, but not in the footsteps of Napoleon.

As Felipe said , take the advice given
Your pocket will be emptied of euros for the lack of respect.
 
The Valcarlos route is not a consolation prize... It is a beautiful walk up the valley with some stunning mountain trails. Plus it is easy to break into two stages by staying in Valcarlos if you choose. Enjoy!
Totally agree! I love the Valcarlos route for the same reasons you mention!
 
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The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
April 26, 2005 walked on about 3 feet of packed snow at the pass.
May 28, 2013 (memory???) pass was closed. Several small groups in trouble from ignoring the warnings.
Please follow t2andreo advice to check in SJPdP and FOLLOW THEIR RECOMMENDATION.
Remember well these days,in 2013, on the Camino Norte. Terrible weather for a couple of weeks, rain , wind and low temperature. Read reports from the Pyrenees about snow and wind.
 
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The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
If it is closed then one cannot stay at Orisson?
You can stay at Refuge Orisson during all of their season. Their season lasts from early April until middle to late October.

To clear up some common misunderstandings or misinterpretations:

There is a section of the Route Napoleon where it is against Spanish law to walk during all of the months of November, December, January, February, and March. There are heavy fines in place in relation to this law. It's the same every year. There is no way around it. From 1 November until 31 March you need to walk via Valcarlos.​

Refuge Orisson opens in early April and closes in late October. Their opening times are a commercial decision and depend on the weather and the conditions on the whole trail of the Route Napoleon. Hence opening day in April and closing day in October varies from year to year.​

There is no official closing and opening of the Route Napoleon during April-October. However, the weather can be such that it is not advised, or even life- and limb-threatening dangerous for you, to go. You need to seek advice.​

As a courtesy, the staff at Refuge Orisson may drive you back to SJPP if you stayed at Orisson for the night and the weather on the morning of your departure is very bad.

Distance between Orisson and SJPP: about 8 km.
Distance between Orisson and Spanish territory where Spanish law applies: about 10 km.
Orisson is in France.

Buen camino!
 
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To clear up some common misunderstandings or misinterpretations:

There is a section of the Route Napoleon where it is against Spanish law to walk during all of the months of November, December, January, February, and March. There are heavy fines in place in relation to this law. It's the same every year. There is no way around it. From 1 November until 31 March you need to walk via Valcarlos.
Thanks for this post @Kathar1na but let me add to the above what you usually do but forgot this time. Not only will you be fined but if the Burgette firefighters are sent to rescue you there will be high costs to pay.
 
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As we are approaching the end of March and the start of the "pilgrim season" that lasts from April to October, I felt it is important to point out that the Route Napoleon is not a trail in a National Park. There are no National Park authorities, no Camino authorities, no Pyrenees authorities that declare the trail open or closed on a specific day during April to October when weather or trail conditions may be bad or dangerous. Some forum messages here and there suggest this but it is not so.
 
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Closed until April 1st, weather dependent after that. In April 2016 it was closed still on April 8th at my start. We walked via the Valcarlos route and enjoyed it very much. We still walked in ankle deep snow the last 2 hours into Roncesvalles even on this route.
Personally I think many pilgrims are way too hung up on the Napoleon route. It is one day out of 33. Don't let whether you walk the Napoleon route define your Camino. There are many more equally awesome days to be had the Francis route.
I will probably start my next full walk of the Francis in the future in the fall to lessen the chance of weather being an issue. Depending on the spring weather, the Napoleon on any given day in the spring may or may not be open well into mid May and possibly beyond that. Truly the luck of the draw.
 
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Wihat is it people don’t understand??? IT IS NOT SAFE to walk in the Winter.
No-one ever thought of closing the road until some idiot walkers who didn’t know ( and didn’t listen) still thought it was ok to walk, whatever the locals said. DOH.
Hence lots of expensive and risky rescue operations.
Really annoys me. So unnecessary.
Rant over.
Deep breath :)
 
Wihat is it people don’t understand??? IT IS NOT SAFE to walk in the Winter.
[...]
Really annoys me. So unnecessary.
Rant over.
Deep breath :)
@domigee, are you sure you posted this into the appropriate thread? In this thread, I just see people who talk calmly about what they know and what they experienced in the way of weather in late April and May - not exactly winter months ...

The OP's question was a genuine one. He said thank you "to all for useful information. Crossed the route on April 6 in 2014. Will start on March 27 this year, but not in the footsteps of Napoleon". And that people react to the initial question without reading subsequent answers and the same is said over and over again ought to be nothing new to long-term members of this forum. It doesn't faze me anymore. 🙃
 
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As we are approaching the end of March and the start of the "pilgrim season" that lasts from April to October, I felt it is important to point out that the Route Napoleon is not a trail in a National Park. There are no National Park authorities, no Camino authorities, no Pyrenees authorities that declare the trail open or closed on a specific day during April to October when weather or trail conditions may be bad or dangerous. Some forum messages here and there suggest this but it is not so.
But didn't you suggest that there is some kind of authority in your previous post??
There is a section of the Route Napoleon where it is against Spanish law to walk during all of the months of November, December, January, February, and March. There are heavy fines in place in relation to this law. It's the same every year. There is no way around it. From 1 November until 31 March you need to walk via Valcarlos.
 
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
@trecile, I must not have expressed myself clearly.

Edited to add:
1 November to 31 March: Closure
1 April to 31 October: No closure. Seek advice. Follow advice.
 
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Transport luggage-passengers.
From airports to SJPP
Luggage from SJPP to Roncevalles
The Napoleonic war 1808/1814 in Iberia which is known as the Peninsular War had an impact on the Camino Frances near Roncesvalles and Pamplona.
Although Napoleon Bonaparte himself never was on this route the French troops were successful at the Battle of Roncesvalles 25 July 1813 against the British. Read more here of this event in the Peninsular war and check out the map of the battle.

Roncesvalles, Uppper Canada or Ontario, was named after the battle of Roncesvalles.
Colonel Walter O'Hara, who fought with the British in the battle, would after emigrating to Upper Canada mid-century name Roncesvalles Avenue in Toronto after the battle. The present neighborhood of Roncesvalles in turn gained its name from the street.
However, pronunciation varies depending on country, sadly.
 
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Yes, I understand that, but is Orisson on the way to the alternate route, or must one soldier on all the way to Roncesvalles should the Napoleon route be closed. I have a reservation at Orisson 14 April.
My guess is that in all probability, law of averages wise, the Napoleon route will be open on 14 April. In the event it is not you will either have to take the Valcarlos route, or just not walk that day and wait for better weather.
If you walk the Valcarlos you can either stop and stay in the albergue or other accommodation in Valcarlos (about 10 km from Saint Jean I think) or you can walk all the way to Roncesvalles.
 
Yes, I understand that, but is Orisson on the way to the alternate route, or must one soldier on all the way to Roncesvalles should the Napoleon route be closed. I have a reservation at Orisson 14 April.

Orrison is on the Napoleon route. The trail split to Napoleon route or to Valcarlos route occurs before you leave SJPDP.

Go to your reserved bed on April 14. IF weather prevents you continuing on that route the next day, you and all the others staying there will talk with the hospitalero and sort a plan. Don't worry about it until it happens.
 
is Orisson on the way to the alternate route
As others have said, no. The split is at the bottom of the hill as you're leaving SJPP.

I think many pilgrims are way too hung up on the Napoleon route.
Amen. And (also as others have said), the Valcarlos is actually the older route. It's not the the 'alternate route' except in modern Hollywood-driven mythology - nor is it a consolation prize for those who can't walk the 'real' way, but a glorious walk in its own right.
 
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Yes, I understand that, but is Orisson on the way to the alternate route, or must one soldier on all the way to Roncesvalles should the Napoleon route be closed. I have a reservation at Orisson 14 April.
Orisson is 7kms into the route that may be closed. If so, you'll have to take the Valcarlos route, which is lovely in its own way. You can break up the walk to Roncesvalles by stopping in Valcarlos on that route. If the Napoleon route is open, your night in Orisson is on that route. Just check with the pilgrim office in SJPDP.
 
nor is it a consolation prize for those who can't walk the 'real' way, but a glorious walk in its own right.

Firstly ......Wonderful accommodation , wonderful choice of restaurants , wonderful small Basque village in the hills
Secondly..... if weather permitting a beautiful [ not to easy] walk on the forrest floor the next day to Burguette.
 
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Yes, I understand that, but is Orisson on the way to the alternate route, or must one soldier on all the way to Roncesvalles should the Napoleon route be closed. I have a reservation at Orisson 14 April.
ORISSON is at 10 km from SJPP on Napoleon Route but 14 April Orisson will be open. When you arrive you have to go to the pilgrims office the volunteers will give you all advices you need
 
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The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
FYI I walked Valcarlos route yesterday.
1. There's snow on the mountain top overhead. We had lovely weather on the lower path.
2. As to, 'consolation prize': SJPdP to Valcarlos is lovely easy walk. It fooled me. Valcarlos to Roncesvalles is no easy walk, especially the last 5k, which is solidly and relentlessly uphill. Really hard for a gentleman of a certain age! 🤠
Taking an easy, resting day today. No apology.
 
Valcarlos to Roncesvalles is no easy walk, especially the last 5k, which is solidly and relentlessly uphill
Both routes have a stretch of 3 km with an average slope of 15%. The Napoleon has it earlier, in the first part before Orisson, and the Valcarlos route has it in the second part.
 
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I have heard that, too and it makes sense. One would not march an army up a higher route when a lower one is available.
That depends on which 'sense' we are talking about. Perhaps in a 'normal' (if you will) sense - sure.
However, 'military' sense is quite different and in so many ways it plays off the 'normal' sense which says - NAH...SURELY they won't DO this, because..... and that is how we surprise our enemies...doing exactly the opposite of what is 'normal'
 
That depends on which 'sense' we are talking about. Perhaps in a 'normal' (if you will) sense - sure.
However, 'military' sense is quite different and in so many ways it plays off the 'normal' sense which says - NAH...SURELY they won't DO this, because..... and that is how we surprise our enemies...doing exactly the opposite of what is 'normal'
Well I thought that if one were moving large numbers of soldiers and equipment whilst under non-combat conditions, or in a no threat area it would make sense to take the low road, but these troops and equipment was doing so under combat. So it makes total sense to take the high road/high ground. I did not realize that at first until I read the historical record of the campaign in that area that was attached to another post on here.
 
From With Wellington in the Pyrenees, being an account of the operations between the allied army and the French from July 25 to August 2, 1813, by Brigadier-General F. C. Beatson, published London 1914:

[This] point was in 1813 known as the col or puerto de Ibaneta. At that date the [in 1914] existing road through the Val Carlos had not been made. From St. Jean Pied de Port to Pamplona the line of communication [ascended] almost due south from the town of St. Jean Pied de Port to the plateau of Orisson, the road, known locally as the chemin d'artillerie, ran along towards the crest of the heights by the col de Bentarte and the Altobiscar to the col de Ibaneta, and from there descended by Roncevaux to the upland land surrounding the village of Burguete.​
What is described as chemin d'artillerie is exactly what we know today as Route Napoleon with the variant "not going down through the forest".
Besides the chemin d'artillerie, two other tracks led from St. Jean over the port. One by the Adarca peak [...] The other led up through the Val Carlos. Both were steep, and bad going, especially the latter, which was little used.
 
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The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
History is great, but don't we need two SEPARATE threads here???
 
History is great, but don't we need two SEPARATE threads here???
When the main question has been answered [Question: Is the Napoleon route from St. Jean to Roncesvalles open now? - Answer: No.], we are allowed some leeway by the PTB. 🤓
 
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Bernard Cornwall's stories of soldier Sharpe traipsing about, serving in Wellington's army in various parts of Spain and Portugal are great fun, if you like that kind of thing.
 
Moderator note: The breadth and depth of knowledge available from members of this forum is a joy to behold. The OP's question was indeed answered quickly. Explanation was then provided to expand on the initial response. And then we got into the real joy of it....

Mods are sensitive to the difference between a thread going off-track and a thread that remains firmly on track in an ever changing landscape :)

ps: la chemin d'artillerie aka Route Napoleon is closed, it is not open for the walking, ferme, interdit, shut. Just in case anyone had got confused by history. Of course, if you are 5ft 2ins of megalomaniac with a significant army and associated baggage train feel free to give it a go. Just bear in mind that the authorities in Navarre may impose a significant fine and costs should you require rescuing ;)
 
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
Well I thought that if one were moving large numbers of soldiers and equipment whilst under non-combat conditions, or in a no threat area it would make sense to take the low road, but these troops and equipment was doing so under combat. So it makes total sense to take the high road/high ground. I did not realize that at first until I read the historical record of the campaign in that area that was attached to another post on here.
And he is obviously not first to do so. Think of Hannibal crossing the Alps in218 AD and Suvorov doing the same in 1799. Napoleon himself will cross the Alps in 1800 so technically crossing the Pyrenees 13 years later is a 'piece of cake' (I know i am pushing it here :))
I am sure that if we dig into history we will find many examples. The flanking maneuver at Thermopylae and Khyber Pass come to my mind OTOH😂
 
Bernard Cornwall's stories of soldier Sharpe traipsing about, serving in Wellington's army in various parts of Spain and Portugal are great fun, if you like that kind of thing.

🎶 Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
King George commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.
🎶
 
Colonel Walter O'Hara, who fought with the British in the battle, would after emigrating to Upper Canada mid-century name Roncesvalles Avenue in Toronto after the battle. The present neighborhood of Roncesvalles in turn gained its name from the street.
I used to work at the Toronto Public Library branch on Roncesvalles Avenue. It was a Carnegie library, built with a grant from the Carnegie Corporation.
 
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I used to work at the Toronto Public Library branch on Roncesvalles Avenue. It was a Carnegie library, built with a grant from the Carnegie Corporation.
And *nobody* in Toronto knows how to pronounce it properly. :D
For those not familiar with T.O> -- locals call it "Ronces-Vales" or, sometimes "Ronces valley". :/
Seulement pour m'amuser et ennuyer les autres la, je préfère qualifier le quartier de "Roncevaux", comme une propre Canadienne bilingue.
 
And *nobody* in Toronto knows how to pronounce it properly. :D
For those not familiar with T.O> -- locals call it "Ronces-Vales" or, sometimes "Ronces valley". :/
Seulement pour m'amuser et ennuyer les autres la, je préfère qualifier le quartier de "Roncevaux", comme une propre Canadienne bilingue.
True. I don't believe I ever heard anyone pronounce it "Ronthesvayes" as it should be. But then again, most people in Toronto don't know how to pronounce "Spadina", either. 😆
 
True. I don't believe I ever heard anyone pronounce it "Ronthesvayes" as it should be. But then again, most people in Toronto don't know how to pronounce "Spadina", either. 😆
Nor "Regina"...
 
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But then again, most people in Toronto don't know how to pronounce "Spadina", either.
Heck, some people in Toronto don't even prounce Toronto corectly. My mother was from there and said something like 'T'rona.' 🤣

What's proper and correct is cotextual. So when in Rome, say Roncesvalles as the Romans do. You will be more easily undertood that way.
 
I think that lots of people don't want to pronounce it property because of what it rhymes with. 😉
But in Latin, it does not rhyme with what you are thinking of.
Heck, some people in Toronto don't even prounce Toronto corectly. My mother was from there and said something like 'T'rona.' 🤣

What's proper and correct is cotextual. So when in Rome, say Roncesvalles as the Romans do. You will be more easily undertood that way.
Can't do it. I can't stand to be thought of as a person who fails to enunciate. I honeslty prefer to be thought an elitist snob. I was taught that well enunciated speech could be given away but never stolen from me. I make a point of not mangling my students' names as well... and often get chosen as the orator for convocation as a result. My students say my speech is intimidating, especially for a woman... but also seek to learn how to do what I do.
Where I live now I am observing a vowel shift something to the effect of the following:
"milk" (short 'i') has become "melk" (short 'e'); all the "ing" endings are pronounced "een", and "text" has become "taxt". Makes my skin crawl. Everyone sounds slightly drunk and stupid, and I work very hard to teach them -- along with content competency -- not to undermine their professionalism with sloppy speech.
 
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Where I live now I am observing a vowel shift
How do you think English became English?
Or any other language for that matter.
Any language is a fluid thing, subject to fashion, trends, and change. Unstoppable. So good luck, Faye. It's a losing battle in a lost war.

(What bugs me is how the ends of sentences are all becoming questions even if they're not. But change happens, and we may as well get over ourselves.)
 
How do you think English became English?
Or any other language for that matter.
Any language is a fluid thing, subject to fashion, trends, and change. Unstoppable. So good luck, Faye. It's a losing battle in a lost war.

(What bugs me is how the ends of sentences are all becoming questions even if they're not. But change happens, and we may as well get over ourselves.)
Well aware of the perpetual shift, and of the “great vowel shift”… But I refuse to concede my own speech habits. There remain stratifications in speech and I won’t tumble down the route of ”up-talk” and abbreviated endings, that sound both nasal and vapid to my ear. I admit to being in the minority in my views. It does not bother me to be so.
 
How do you think English became English?
Or any other language for that matter.
Any language is a fluid thing, subject to fashion, trends, and change. Unstoppable. So good luck, Faye. It's a losing battle in a lost war.

(What bugs me is how the ends of sentences are all becoming questions even if they're not. But change happens, and we may as well get over ourselves.)
I would give a fulsome response to this, about how we have to accept the changing nature of language, but accepting the changing semantics of the word "fulsome" hurts too much.
 
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
I believe that names of people and places should be pronounced the way that the owner of the name and the residents of the place prefer to pronounce them.
For example the state of Nevada should be pronounced Ne-VAH-duh, because it's a Spanish word, but the residents of the state say Ne-VAD-uh

 
Well aware of the perpetual shift, and of the “great vowel shift”… But I refuse to concede my own speech habits
Of course not. Your speech us what it is.
And so is everyone else's, as language moves on.
What is correct is subjective.

Speaking in line with local usage of place names is a matter of a pragmatism and respect for local customs. It's better to use the pronunciation people of a particular place use, even if it grates on our ear, for whatever subjective reason.
 
Pragmatism and respect for local customs means it's better to use the pronunciation people of that place use, even if it grates on our ear, for whatever subjective reason.
There's a county in Northern California called Del Norte county, but the locals insist on leaving the E off the end and say Del Nort. Fortunately, I've never had occasion to visit there. 😄
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
Heck, some people in Toronto don't even prounce Toronto corectly. My mother was from there and said something like 'T'rona.' 🤣
Awww, your mum must have some (broad) Aussie in her!!
 
The Valcarlos route is not a consolation prize... It is a beautiful walk up the valley with some stunning mountain trails. Plus it is easy to break into two stages by staying in Valcarlos if you choose. Enjoy!
Agree walked it in 2018 and having walked both enjoyed it more.
 
Wihat is it people don’t understand??? IT IS NOT SAFE to walk in the Winter.
No-one ever thought of closing the road until some idiot walkers who didn’t know ( and didn’t listen) still thought it was ok to walk, whatever the locals said. DOH.
Hence lots of expensive and risky rescue operations.
Really annoys me. So unnecessary.
Rant over.
Deep breath :)
in 2018 after reaching Ronc. a lady walked in bragging how she had come over the Napoleon route and being also an Australian I was so not happy and asked why. I gave her an ear full how stupid and not caring about those that had to go out and rescue fools like her. That afternoon it started to snow heavily and a few days later 5 had to be rescued........They are walkers/hikers but noway are they pilgrims as they only think about themselves.
 
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Agree walked it in 2018 and having walked both enjoyed it more.
There is also the joy of the path less travelled. It's never going to be the ant trail the Napoleon route is, so if you want peace and quiet, this is the way for you.

Awww, your mum must have some (broad) Aussie in her!!
Not a speck. Ontario born and bred, 4 or 5 generations back. But life is short. Why say 'To-ron-to' when you can say 'T'rona'? 🙃
 
So when in Rome, say Roncesvalles as the Romans do. You will be more easily undertood that way.

Can't do it. I can't stand to be thought of as a person who fails to enunciate. I honeslty prefer to be thought an elitist snob.

Nor "Regina"...

But in Latin, it does not rhyme with what you are thinking of.
Do you pronounce "Regina" (referring to the city) like the hoi polloi in Canada, or do you say it in correct Latin? o_O
 
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And *nobody* in Toronto knows how to pronounce it properly. :D
For those not familiar with T.O> -- locals call it "Ronces-Vales" or, sometimes "Ronces valley". :/
Seulement pour m'amuser et ennuyer les autres la, je préfère qualifier le quartier de "Roncevaux", comme une propre Canadienne bilingue.
Since the title of this thread has "Napoleon" in it, a relevant question: Roncesvalles and Waterloo are both place names in Canada; the latter is also known for its university.
  • Roncesvalles is named after a location in Spain where a battle of the Napoleonic wars took place in 1813.

  • Waterloo is named after a location in Belgium where a battle of the Napoleonic wars took place in 1815.
When speaking English in Canada, if the proper pronunciation of Roncesvalles must be the one used by Spanish-speaking Spaniards, is the proper pronunciation of Waterloo the one used by French-speaking Belgians? Like watɛʁlo or optionally like ˈʋaːtərloː but certainly not like wɔːtə(r)ˈluː. (Click on links to listen).

If not, why, in Canada, would one place name of a Canadian geographical location have to be treated as an exonym and the other as an endonym? I'm really curious to understand this reasoning.
 
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Of course not. Your speech us what it is.
And so is everyone else's, as language moves on.
What is correct is subjective.

Speaking in line with local usage of place names is a matter of a pragmatism and respect for local customs. It's better to use the pronunciation people of a particular place use, even if it grates on our ear, for whatever subjective reason.
I suppose as we go forward the utopian view might be that in the end the world will have one shared tongue… but the downside will surely be that origins and history and specificity are evacuated. What is *the point* of naming a child “Genevieve” only to call her “Jenny-veeve” (and that kid hates the sound of her name so much that she just uses “Jen”)? That one sticks out because I did roll-call in one my first-ever classes and Genevieve had never heard her name pronounced in French. She said she would use her full name if people would say it as I had.

I am reminded here of Plato’s Cave allegory… in which we might all have to agree upon stumbling into he cave that the warm light on the wall is the reflection of the sun, and not of a fire. Who is in the cave at any given time? Unclear… But if all things are true as defined only by the local, we could be in real trouble…

My first name is similarly mangled in English… hard and ugly. But it is a French name… that sounds lovely in any regional version. It is ubiquitous and ugly in English and I don’t use it, but English is the local custom. My francophone step-sister does not like the sound of other parts of my middle name (I have a 5-barrel name; it’s ridiculous) because she finds it too brutal. She uses my first name to address me, and it sounds soft and gentle.

…. Getting this back on track…. What of the matter of the Basque names for the towns we walk through? we do not generally refer to the “Luzaide” route… but to be honest, I want to know what “Luzaide” means… what it refers to… Same for all the little towns (and this year I will see so many more as I walk on the north coast). One of my favourite things about my first walk was the very “front and central” graffiti directed as pilgrims/walkers to tell us that we were not in Spain…. I was just so *jolted* out of my assumptions…

And I despair because I am much too old to learn a new language, Basque, that has no point of reference for entry for me.

It is funny though… that we name neither road from St Jean to Roncesvalles for those who live there, but only for legions that passed through?
 
Since the title of this thread has "Napoleon" in it, a relevant question: Roncesvalles and Waterloo are both place names in Canada; the latter is also known for its university.
  • Roncesvalles is named after a location in Spain where a battle of the Napoleonic wars took place in 1813.

  • Waterloo is named after a location in Belgium where a battle of the Napoleonic wars took place in 1815.
When speaking English in Canada, if the proper pronunciation of Roncesvalles must be the one used by Spanish-speaking Spaniards, is the proper pronunciation of Waterloo the one used by French-speaking Belgians? Like watɛʁlo or optionally like ˈʋaːtərloː but certainly not like wɔːtə(r)ˈluː. (Click on links to listen).

If not, why, in Canada, would one place name of a Canadian geographical location have to be treated as an exonym and the other as an endonym? I'm really curious to understand this reasoning.
I am constantly raising these points exactly as you note them, but not in the service of saying that the locals who dominate now should be allowed to trash a language. Language and power and domination, colonialism… we stray into politics I fear. But I do think that “Weber” street (Waterloo) should be pronounced as we do for the socio-political theorist, Max Weber, and not as “Weeburr” nor, even worse: Webber”.
My Indigenous neighbours all over will remind is that none of these transplanted names is correct.
 
we do not generally refer to the “Luzaide” route… but to be honest, I want to know what “Luzaide” means… what it refers to…
The Euskadi Wikipedia page for Luzaide says (Google translation):
The Basque name, Luzaide , means "long way", luza ("long") and ide ( way = "way"). According to Basque philologist Jean-Baptiste Orpustan , the place refers to the long journey that shepherds from Lower Navarre had to make with their flocks when crossing the valley, before establishing a stable population center in the valley.
 
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if all things are true as defined only by the local, we could be in real trouble
We're not talking about absolute reality here, Faye, just pronunciation. Why make it more complicated than it needs to be? Refer to local places with local pronunciation or names and we'll be understood - and appreciated.

And I despair because I am much too old to learn a new language, Basque, that has no point of reference for entry for me
In the Pais Vasco, people like it if you ask about the Basque place name - and use it. Fortunately, there is no need to learn Basque (or Catalan, Galician, whatever) to call a place by its local name.
 
We're not talking about absolute reality here, Faye, just pronunciation. Why make it more complicated than it needs to be? Refer to local places with local pronunciation or names and we'll be understood - and appreciated.
Well, I guess I think that there is such a thing as ignorant disregard for the history....
I also agree with Bourdieu that cultures mutate and build as they lay their own tracks while travelling on them. Sometimes toward something better than what they have been, and partly because as he said in Esquisse D'une Théorie de la Pratique, (parsing here) -- 100% of the people do not follow 100% of the rules 100% of the time, and so things change. Sometimes the change is toward something worse, and everyday life becomes a world of disregard.

Some things are flat out ugly to my ear. Ronces-vales, Roncey-valley, Ronces-ville... it hurts my head. It literally speaks to a very poor education of our public on its own matters...

"Webber" for the surname of Max Weber... by my own colleagues... drives me *around the bend*.

I am peculiar. I know it. I also insist on eating in a dining room and holding a proper conversation and not mowing down in front of the TV. I loathe "open plan" homes that defy one's ability to locate a quiet corner in which to read, and make every action of the child open to surveillance. Homes full of chaos and anxiety... But my students who grew up in such settings have *zero idea* of how to sit at a seminar table and hold a discussion.

I see it as all of a piece. And I have *zero chill* about it.
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
In the Pais Vasco, people like it if you ask about the Basque place name - and use it. Fortunately, there is no need to learn Basque (or Catalan, Galician, whatever) to call a place by its local name.
I aim to try to ask such things on this trip. On my first go in the region I was *so shy* that I could not manage even to be seen in the crowded bars, and I would have starved had 2 older men not taken my money and delivered back to me whatever they came away with from the crowded bars. Fortunately, I am not picky.
Unfortunately, in real life I am extremely extremely introverted and loath the idea that I might disturb a busy bar-keeper with my request -- even for that pinxto.
 
Well, I guess I think that there is such a thing as ignorant disregard for the history....
What does "ignorant disregard for the history" have to do with pronouncing a place name as locals do? I'm simply suggesting we be pragmatic. And courteous.

100% of the people do not follow 100% of the rules 100%
see it as all of a piece. And I have *zero chill* about it.
You do realize that rules are arbitrary human inventions? It's a losing battle, so I genuinely feel for you. It sounds like suffering.

in real life I am extremely extremely introverted and loath the idea that I might disturb a busy bar-keeper with my request -- even for that pinxto.
The joy of being a transient far from home is that no-one will see us again. ;)
 
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What does "ignorant disregard for the history" have to do with pronouncing a place name as locals do? I'm simply suggesting we be pragmatic. And courteous.



You do realize that rules are arbitrary human inventions? It's a losing battle, so I genuinely feel for you. It sounds like suffering.


The joy of being a transient far from home is that no-one will see us again. ;)
I abhor chaos. Pronouncing a name in a grossly distorted manner just because the locals have decide to do so is a capitulation to majority-rule even if it is a stupid majority. "T'rana" is not anything close to the Huron word "Tkoronto", 4 syllables, a quasi-digraph, and the emphasis on the final long "O". "T'rana" communicates, "I don't care whose land I am on".... "Ronces-vales" (or whatever weird variant) communicates an ignorance about the history of the glorification of old-world battles and land-grabs... is proabably part-and-parcel of the disregard of Canada for all things to do with Spain (because the "founding nations" of England and France made it so).
And I'm finding it very difficult to talk about language without it being "political".
On the point of suffering?
Given that I am sandwiched between an Asperger parent and an Asperger child, it's unlikley that I was skipped over and I am reminded of the t-shirt: "I don't suffer from Asperger's; I suffer from Idiots." [Here I refer not to our exchange, but to the aggravation of dealing daily with people who assert that their dominance in a place is an inherent right, including a right to ignorance.]
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
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