Need help packing for two seasons

[sabbott]

Greetings, all. I'm planning my first walk for this spring, and the forum has been a great help, as well as my new evening entertainment! I haven't been able to find this exact question in an existing thread, sorry if I missed it. I'm leaving from SJPdP on April 18th, and have two months to get to Finisterre. That means I'm starting in spring, and ending in mid-June summer, which is making my packing challenging.

I understand that the key here is layers, and think I've figured out my lower body: leggings, lightweight trail pants, rain pants. For the top layers, I'll have 2 technical tee shirts, a lightweight long sleeve merino base layer, and a vented rain jacket. I'm having trouble deciding on a mid-layer for warmth.

My choices are: a lighter weight fleece hoodie (about 8 oz.), or a heavier (about one lb.) wind resistant fleece hoodie, or my lightweight hoodless down jacket.

I'm wondering if the down jacket will be overkill, after the first two weeks of April weather? Or if I go with the heavier hoodie, will I be carrying that extra pound of fleece in my pack for most of May and half of June? But maybe I'll freeze for 2 months in the lighter hoodie...

If someone who has actually walked during spring and early summer could help me make a decision here, that would be much appreciated! I feel rather silly ruminating on and on about an article of clothing--but then again, I will be outdoors for two months, enjoying the changing weather....

One other question--can anyone recommend a very warm, lightweight mitten? My hands get numb and turn white (ghoulish, I know) when it's even a little chilly, and I'll need to layer mittens over liner gloves.
Thanks!

 

[domigee]

Hello Sabbott,
Your layers for the lower body seem to me just right. I would take the light fleece as a middle layer.
I have never walked the camino in the spring but encountered every type of weather on another pilgrimage. My top layers consisted of : light camisole, t-shirt, merino jumper, light fleece, very light windbreak jacket and poncho. Your rain jacket will replace my last 2. I also needed a buff but you have a hoodie...
I found it covered all eventualities.
Sorry can't help with the mittens, I eventually bought a pair of cheap woolly gloves from a market when it got too cold but no doubt someone else will help there.
Most important: if you can, try walking with your selected gear in cold weather/rain to make sure you are warm enough... We all differ. Also I would bring 3 changes of socks as they can take a while to dry in bad weather.
Buen camino!

 

[Kitsambler]

Yes, the lightweight fleece is what you want. I nearly froze in Germany in late May until I picked one up locally. And you'll need it. Once it warms up so you no longer need it even at night, you can post it ahead to Santiago.

 

[newfydog]

Montbell makes a down jacket which weighs less than a t-shirt. The vest is even lighter. It also makes a great pillow. Except for mid summer, we always bring them.

Don't under estimate how cold you can get when wet and tired.

http://www.montbell.us/

 

[J F Gregory]

We are training in wet cold weather here in Washington. I use a smart wool base layer, regular shirt and light fleece under a Frog Tog jacket (lightweight rain jacket). The layers are enough to keep me warm 35-45 degree wet weather.

 

[t2andreo]

You WILL very likely experience significant rain during this time period, especially in Galicia. Also, on a rainy day, at elevation, the rain comes down as snow. I usually leave form St. Jean Pied de Port in the last week of April, after Easter. In two years, I hit snow at Cruz de Ferro in mid-May. In 2014, there was a white-out at O'Cebreiro and Alto de Paio.

As others have stated, layering is the key to comfort and safety. Multiple, lighter weight under-layers are better than one thick, heavy outer layer. Also, bring spare socks to change into dry socks. You add or remove outer layers as needed.

Also, I find that micro fiber, runner's gloves and a microfiber skull cap are also good. They are lightweight, dry fast, and insulate when wet. I buy mine in a discount store like Target. Some people use Buffs. I love my buff, but on a frigid rainy day, microfiber does a better job, at least for me.

I use my Buff for hot, sunny days, to attenuate sweat, as a face cloth, and as an emergency compression bandage for wounds. I fell on my head (nothing hurt but my pride) in 2014, and bled something awful. Head wounds are like that. But a package of facial tissues held in place with the buff made an effective field dressing, holding direct pressure on the wound until the bleeding stopped.

As you plan you layering system remember that wet and warm is not necessarily a bad thing. However wet and cold is very bad, and can lead to hypothermia. I typically find that most of the "sweat" under my poncho is perspiration. As long as I am warm, it does not concern me. That is why you need to plan to have dry clothes at the end of a day to change into.

Drying your wet clothes can be problematic, especially when you get continuous rainy days. Over the years, I have become quite creative with stringing expedite clothes lines in hostals and albergues.

Nothing is worse than not having dry clothes to start the day's walking, especially if the temperature outside is in the 30's (F) and rainy. To try to allow for this, I always have three under-layer sets. One on, one just washed and drying, and a third that was washed and dried the previous day.

I also make use of polite ladies along the way that charge a nominal amount to do laundry, including drying (secondora). Always ask if there is the possibility to wash clothes (Si puede lavar mi ropa?). Offer to share a dryer with another pilgrim if they are also hand-washing clothes. Most people in Spain do not use clothes dryers as electricity is very expensive. They rely instead on clothes lines. This usually does not work if it rains continuously.

I hope this helps.

 

[sabbott]

Thanks so much for this advice, everybody! @t2andreo, thanks for all of your tips. I will look into micro fiber. I do have a buff, love it. Good to know it's useful as a compression bandage! Here in Vermont I have plenty of cold, wet days to experiment with these layering suggestions.

 

[GettingThere]

Layering is definitely your answer, as others have said. Weather can be so variable at that time of year. I walked this year from mid-April to early June (Roncesvalles-Santiago), and the weather was glorious! We had barely an hour of rain the whole time (good for pilgrims, not so good for farmers of course) - I think we were particularly lucky because there was a lot of rain in some parts of Northern Spain at the time, just not right where we were. It was also very warm most of the time. I had very light merino t-shirts which was really all I wore for most of the trip (well, I mean with trousers as well of course!). I had a light merino fleece which I wore on cooler mornings and for the first few days when it was cool but not cold. It would have been easy to layer up more if I'd needed to - I also had a long-sleeved light merino top (I live close to an Icebreaker outlet store - what can i say?!) which I hardly used but could have layered on. A fleece which is not too close-fitting is a good idea so you can layer when you need to. I had a Ferrino Trekker rain coat which covers me and my pack - I wore it a couple of times when we had light rain for a short time (next time I'll look for something different as this quickly made me very hot and sweaty, as others have mentioned on other threads about rain gear). I took wool gloves which I think I wore for about half an hour on my first day and then not again, a wool beanie hat which I didn't wear at all, and a sun hat with floppy brim which I wore a lot - very important as the sun is really strong and your neck and face are vulnerable.

Buen camino!

 

[sabbott]

Thank you, @GettingThere, that's very helpful information. I think on my next experimental expedition (in 45 degree weather, as there's no snow and it's quite warm here in Vermont so far) I'll try layering a technical teeshirt, lightweight merino long sleeve shirt, lightweight fleece, and rain jacket, with a buff on my head. That may be the final verdict, and then I can stop thinking so much about clothes!

I am very much liking my Aspire rain jacket http://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/womens-aspire-jacket-32699.html. It has big zippable vents, and the fabric feels more like a regular jacket than a raincoat.

 

[LisaAnn]

Montbell makes a down jacket which weighs less than a t-shirt. The vest is even lighter. It also makes a great pillow. Except for mid summer, we always bring them.

Don't under estimate how cold you can get when wet and tired.

http://www.montbell.us/

The absolute best piece of outdoor clothing I own is my Montbell ultralight down jacket. It may weigh 6 oz and compresses to fit in a medium pocket. I've had is for close to 10 years and it's been everywhere and gets packed for all but the warmest climates - I get cold easily.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I often leave in April and come home in June.
I just layer my clothes.
I never take a jacket, except for a windbreaker.
I personally would not take the down jacket.
You'll end up carrying it because after you walk a kilometer, you'll heat up and peel it off.

 

[Camino Ky]

I would choose the light weight fleece hoodie. Your layering looks good. I am traveling the same route early April until mid May and found your question and responses useful as well Thanks.

 

[Seabird]

Always helpful to read such specific information, even after all the posts I've perused. I have a similar layering system with an Arc'teryx fleece (211g). One of my last decisions is whether to also bring a Patagonia Nanopuff (347g), which folds into a small pocket. I'm trying to remember not to bring it "just in case." I'll be doing my "test" hikes after the holidays and see how my system works. And then 'll see what the weather trends look like just before leaving home April 11.

 

[newfydog]

I personally would not take the down jacket.
You'll end up carrying it because after you walk a kilometer, you'll heat up and peel it off.

The Montbell I'm talking about is definitely a jacket, not a parka. Hardy ever wear them walking. Have worn them all through dinner more times than I can count.

My wife wore her Montbell down vest to dinner one night and took it off when she finally got warm. The next evening, when she realized it was left behind, she just sat down and cried. We replaced the vest with the ultralight jacket (179 grams), and it is absolutely her favorite piece of gear.

 

[Seabird]

Have worn them all through dinner more times than I can count.

This is one reason I have kept my nanopuff on my list. The thought I having something warm and comfy at night is mighty appealing.

 

[mcopeland]

I understand that the key here is layers, and think I've figured out my lower body: leggings, lightweight trail pants, rain pants. For the top layers, I'll have 2 technical tee shirts, a lightweight long sleeve merino base layer, and a vented rain jacket. I'm having trouble deciding on a mid-layer for warmth.

My choices are: a lighter weight fleece hoodie (about 8 oz.), or a heavier (about one lb.) wind resistant fleece hoodie, or my lightweight hoodless down jacket.

Hi Sabbott. We have the same timeline - arriving around the 18th-20th through mid-June. Thanks for asking one of the questions I had. We have already gotten Icebreaker merino tees (1 long, 1 short sleeve) and thought that was the base layer. What is a technical tee shirt? We have Marmot rain jackets and pants. I was thinking that with a light weight fleece layer or down jacket the rain jacket would be enough.
Mary

 

[sabbott]

Hi Sabbott. We have the same timeline - arriving around the 18th-20th through mid-June. Thanks for asking one of the questions I had. We have already gotten Icebreaker merino tees (1 long, 1 short sleeve) and thought that was the base layer. What is a technical tee shirt? We have Marmot rain jackets and pants. I was thinking that with a light weight fleece layer or down jacket the rain jacket would be enough.

Hi, Mary. Are you leaving from SJPdP and walking the Napoleon route?

I bought a "technical" tee shirt on the recommendation of my long distance hiker son. Runners use them too. The ones I have are made out of polyester/spandex, are very lightweight, dry fast, and wick moisture from your body. I got mine from Patagonia on sale, REI and most other outdoor companies make them too.

The very light down jacket I have is tempting to take, but I just wore it on a walk layered with a tee-shirt, merino crew and a light fleece, and I was overheated (42 degrees temp.) and I tend to run toward chilly. Opinions on the forum are divided (as usual, which is why it's so entertaining!) but I'm thinking now that just a light fleece over a merino long sleeve base layer and under a raincoat will be enough, even for the first few days in the Pyrenees. Unless it's snowing....

 

[newfydog]

The very light down jacket I have is tempting to take, but I just wore it on a walk layered with a tee-shirt, merino crew and a light fleece, and I was overheated (42 degrees temp.)QUOTE]

Don't wear it walking. Activity and your pack will keep you plenty warm walking. Walk all day, then take a cold(ish) shower, then eat dinner on a bench in a 55 degree room. Or stop for a picnic under a bridge on a cool misty day. That's where you'll want it.

 

[sabbott]

Lots of helpful and differing opinions here on the lightweight down jacket question! Now I must put everything that's an essential into my pack, weigh it, and see if I have room for the 8 ounces or so that will keep me cozy on those chilly days when I'm not staying warm walking. Trying to figure out how to select gear for two, possibly three seasons, and keep my pack under 15 lbs, is turning out to be a fun (as well as time-consuming and rather expensive) puzzle....

 

[C clearly]

Trying to figure out how to select gear for two, possibly three

Don't think "seasons." Think weather and the range of conditions you might get.

 

[Seabird]

Lots of helpful and differing opinions here on the lightweight down jacket question! Now I must put everything that's an essential into my pack, weigh it, and see if I have room for the 8 ounces or so that will keep me cozy on those chilly days when I'm not staying warm walking. Trying to figure out how to select gear for two, possibly three seasons, and keep my pack under 15 lbs, is turning out to be a fun (as well as time-consuming and rather expensive) puzzle....

14 - 15 pounds is my target too, so let me know how you do!

 

[sabbott]

14 - 15 pounds is my target too, so let me know how you do!

I'll be happy to post my packing list for comments here, Seabird. Just need to decide on a few more items.

 

[Devon Mike]

I walked the Camino Frances in May/June last year with a pack weight of 9.5 kgs including water. I found the weather a lot warmer than in the UK at that time so when I walked again this year in May/June I took less clothes, no sleeping bag just a silk liner and also used a smaller pack. This all brought my pack weight down to 5.5 kgs including water.

It worked well so will be the same packing list for next year. I have attached my packing list for reference...

Mike

 

[sabbott]

Thanks for sharing your packing list, Mike. Good guidance there on keeping pack weight down. My sleeping quilt weighs only 19.79 ounces (561 grams) so I'm going to bring it. Just impossible to predict if 2016 is going to be as warm as you experienced, sounds like the last two years were above temperature average.

Did you find you needed the poncho in addition to waterproof trousers and jacket, and the rain cover for your pack (and liner)? Did you use the gaiters? Cheers, Susan

 

[koilife]

Did you find you needed the poncho in addition to waterproof trousers and jacket, and the rain cover for your pack (and liner)? Did you use the gaiters? Cheers, Susan

I would suggest that being wet in and of itself is largely irrelevant except for purposes of comfort. As noted in other posts above, the real concern is wind chill when wet, which can occur rapidly and lead to hypothermia. THAT can happen even if it isn't raining and you are only dealing with perspiration. This is why a base layer that wicks, but doesn't chill when moist, is so critical, the best IMO being quality merino or merino-blend tee-shirt, underwear, socks, stocking cap, and liner gloves. A good merino base layer coupled with a lightweight (4-5 oz) wind jacket (highly breathable and water resistant, but not waterproof) is the basic combination to handle most three-season moisture situations. In that case, either an umbrella or quality poncho is valuable for keeping the worst of the rain off.

To your specific question, if using a quality poncho, then waterproof trousers and jacket are overkill. Alternately, if using waterproof trousers and jacket, then a poncho is overkill. In either case, you'll still get wet from perspiration, and possibly spray/splash if using a poncho. Frankly, I don't think there's need for trousers at all, if you're using basic tech fabric backpacking pants. Even if wet and windy, your primary heat loss isn't from the legs, its from the core. But, if you're a person who "runs cold" then a pair of lightweight wind pants during windy/wet conditions is probably sufficient.

If using a proper liner (or separate waterproof sacks for your gear), then no rain cover is actually required. Your pack might get waterlogged, but your contents will stay dry. The risk is that your liner and/or your waterproof sacks take a puncture after weeks of use and abuse. A pack cover doesn't completely protect against water, as it typically only covers the outside and moisture can still come in between your back and the back of the pack. However, it will minimize most moisture intrusion, and your liner/sacks, even if compromised, will be sufficient. If using a poncho, you won't need the cover.

It seems to me that the primary use of gaitors is keeping splashed mud out of your shoes/boots. If using waterproofed boots/shoes, your perspiration will overwhelm their ability to breath, and if using non-waterproofed shoes/boots, then you'll get wet through the shoe anyways. There are religious wars fought over this topic elsewhere on the forum; the critical issue is to find what works for you under a wide variety of conditions PRIOR to your pilgrimage.

There is no perfect system, and there will always be trade-offs. As for me, I only use a merino base, backpacking shirt and pants, wind jacket, highly breathable non-waterproofed hiking shoes, an umbrella, rain cover, and waterproof storage bags. I don't use either waterproof clothing of any sort or a poncho. I've found that this gear combination (FOR ME) provides the best combination of safety, weight, and comfort for the widest range of conditions. I walked with this system in ten cold and soggy days ranging from drizzle to outright rain and almost never breaking 40 F with only mild discomfort. Others on the forum will swear by completely different approaches. The key remains that you are comfortable and knowledgeable with your chosen gear combination.

 

[sabbott]

Thank you, @koilife, for your useful report on your gear. The search for the perfect packing list is entertaining, but also (I'm telling myself) not worth too much obsessing over, as long as pack weight stays low. What with our merino bases, waterproof layers, and ultralight gear, we're all lucky to be starting with a high level of comfort and safety in our equipment. Anything after that is just fine-tuning and individual choice, as you say.

 

[Devon Mike]

Thanks for sharing your packing list, Mike. Good guidance there on keeping pack weight down. My sleeping quilt weighs only 19.79 ounces (561 grams) so I'm going to bring it. Just impossible to predict if 2016 is going to be as warm as you experienced, sounds like the last two years were above temperature average.

Did you find you needed the poncho in addition to waterproof trousers and jacket, and the rain cover for your pack (and liner)? Did you use the gaiters? Cheers, Susan

Hi Susan,

I did not take a waterproof jacket but used a poncho because it allows the air to circulate underneath so I didn't get very sweaty. In the 49 days I walked I only had one and a half days of rain when I needed the waterproof overtrousers and poncho, and the short gaiters which stop rain running into the tops of my boots.

Another thing I like about using the poncho is that it keeps all the pack straps dry. If the weather gets colder, the overtrousers are also a good second layer to keep my lower half warm.

If you intend taking your lightweight sleeping quilt I am sure you have already decided the extra half a kilo will earn its keep.

Buen Camino,
Mike