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No good pilgrims ???????????????????

Javier

Active Member
#1
WHAT A PITY....................
Many many pilgrims from Germany en el Camino and......................
BAD OPINION IN FORUMS IN SPANISH, ON THE BEHAVIOR OF SOME GERMANS PILGRIMS.-

Buen Camino


 
#2
Hello Javier,
Hablo un poco de español. I speak little spanish. ;-)
What are those forums you mentioned? I would like to read about the Camino in spanish.
 

Javier

Active Member
#3
Re:In www.caminosantiago.com (español)

Copio algún ejemplo.-
Enviado por: PACOPAMPLONA
Fecha: 10 de May de 2008, 15:55


Llevo unos días sin entrar porque estoy en la via de la Plata, ahora en el Camino Sanabrés. ya he llegado a Orense capital y solamente entro para comentar un detalle.
He visto un camino de la Plata cambiado, se han apropiado los alemanes de él. Diré en que sentido y debido a que tenido dos roces y hoy a la mañana ha sido el segundo.
El otro día en Lubián (Zamora) a las 6 a.m. un alemán de 69 años que va con su esposa enciende la luz del dormitorio colectivo mientras varias personas más se encuenran durmiendo, comento que porque enciende la luz y me señala con los dedos de la mano que son las 6 de la mañana, cojo y apago la luz haciendole ver que hay mas personas durmiendo. Me voy al baño y cuando regreso la luz ha vuelto a ser encendida, la vuelvo a apagar meintasr yo me preparo con mi linterna para no molestar y me voy sobre las 7 de la mañan al amanecer.
esta noche bueno mejor hoy en Xunqueira de Ambia un grupo de 6 alemanes 4 mujeres y dos hombres me despiertan a las 6 de la mañana al encender las luces /(todas) me bajo de la litera y la apago, me vuelvo a meter en la litera y vuelven a encender la luz, me vuelvo a bajar y la apago ido en perfecto castellano que ya esta bien de encender la luz mientras haya gente durmiendo (en voz alta) me vuelvo a meter y al poco vuelven a dar la luz. Me vuelvo a bajar muy cabreado y la apago, un aleman se pone delante mia y me señala que son las 6 con los dedos y con los puños que vaya afuera. Me quedo delante de la luz y no vuelve a encenrse hasta que se van. he llegado a Orense y lo primero que he hecho ha sido decir al del Albergue que les diga a los alemanes que la luz mientras haya gente durmiendo no se encienda. asi lo ha hecho y un francés se ha tenido que enfrentar con los alemanes en apaoyo mio.
Co esto quiero decir que el camino de la plata veo que los alemanse loe stan tomando como algo solamente suyo. No se si sera que en sus guías dicen que a las 6 de la mañana se pueden encneder las lcues sin importar quien duerma o no.
Creo que por el bien de los caminos hay que hacer ver en tod momento que en elc amino no manda nadie sino solamente el respeto que hay que tenr hacia los demás.
Porque un ciclista qu ahce 100 o mas km al dia y sale a las 8 de la mañan debe levantarse a las 6? porque una guía de alemanes diga que las 6 es buena hora para caminar?
 

Javier

Active Member
#4
Re: Another opinion.-

Mi opinión es bastante semejante a la expuesta aquí.
Acabo de regresar y durante los 11 días que he estado en el francés, ha sido como estar en Alemania. Había momentos en los que me sentía ridículo deseandoles buen camino por las miradas y el silencio con que me respondían. Puedo entender que no comprendan el idioma o que les resulte extraño que una persona en bici, al rebasarles, les diga algo que ellos pueden entender como un "aparta del camino, c...!!! Pero eso de encender las luces cuando les apetece, como que no. En Belorado a mi me ocurrió lo mismo que comentabais antes, pero a las seis menos cuarto. Pensé que era por una urgencia pero al ver como dos tipos se pertrechaban a sus anchas, haciendo ruido y arrastrando sillas, sin ningún tipo de respeto, mientras dieciocho o veinte personas más dormíamos,como que no!!! Me levanté y con evidentes gestos de malestar apagué la luz. La volvieron a encender y la volví a apagar, esta vez diciendo que la luz se apaga por c...!!! A veces hay que ponerse ya serio por que si no no se donde vamos a llegar. Sinceramente, creo que consentimos demasiado.
A propósito, este tipo de turismo va a ir en aumento y ya de hecho, del año pasado a este se ha notado muchísimo el incremento. Creo que se debería de hacer algo para controlarlo por que no es plan. Ahora surirá el debate de quien es peregrino y quen no y quien tiene derecho a los albergues y quién no. Además he visto cierta preferencia hacia ellos frente a otros españoles que llegaban verdaderamente andados y sudados. Eso no se puede consentir. Ojo, que también habrá gente como es debido, no todos son iguales eh??? Eso no lo pongo enduda pero expongo lo que he visto.
 

sillydoll

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2002 CF: 2004 from Paris: 2006 VF: 2007 CF: 2009 Aragones, Ingles, Finisterre: 2011 X 2 on CF: 2013 'Caracoles': 2014 CF and Ingles 'Caracoles":2015 Logrono-Burgos (Hospitalero San Anton): 2016 La Douay to Aosta/San Gimignano to Rome:
#5
Every now and then the Forums have posts by some pilgrims complaining about the behaviour of other pilgrims.
Last week (on Santiagobis) some American peregrinos were complaining about how rude and unfriendly French pilgrims are. How can someone say that 'all' French pilgrims are rude because one was rude to them? I met wonderful pilgrims from France, one who became my 'sister' and taught me to sing the Ultreya! song.
Last year I heard a French pilgrim say, "There are too many foreigners on the camino!" (I think he meant the English and the Germans.)
Some people complain about the Germans - others complain about 'rude and rowdy" Spanish pilgrims.
It only takes one rude or arogant person to give his/her entire country a bad name. (Like the German couple here who switched lights on at 6am. Not all Germans would do that.)
Perhaps this is a lesson for all of us. Remember that you are a guest in a foreign land. Set a good example for your country; be polite, tolerant, non judgemental, grateful for what you recieve and helpful to other pilgrims.
And, for heavens sake, don't lump all people of one nationality just because one or two rude, arrogant idiot pilgrims upset you.
How can these people even suggest having some kind of 'control' to limit the numbers of pilgrims from one particular country?
 

kubapigora

Active Member
#6
sillydoll said:
Remember that you are a guest in a foreign land. Set a good example for your country; be polite, tolerant, non judgemental, grateful for what you recieve and helpful to other pilgrims.
That just says everything. Remember to judge yourself first, before saying or doing anything what could upset others. Good attitude will pay off in the future and you know it!
 

Minkey

Active Member
#7
There are a lot of Germans on the Camino nowadays, although I've only known a handful of English people each time I've done it. The secret is to treat people as you'd like to be treated yourself.

I'm still friends with people from all over the world from my Camino experiences. Some Spanish, French, Belgian, Dutch, some Americans. I certainly don't subscribe to this idea that it's a Spanish thing and only a Spanish thing. St. James may well be the Patron Saint of Spain, but does that mean that others shouldn't be allowed the opportunity to walk the PILGRIM route? Surely the maps that show the route starting from all over Europe only serve to remind us that it's a pilgrim route, not a Spanish route. Yes, it's in Spain and people should be respectful of that, but I still don't think xenophobia has a place in what is essentially a religious act. I think sometimes people seem to forget what it's all about... Which is sad.

I myself have been guilty of intolerance, be it from noisy bag rustlers etc... But I think it's important to try and isolate the worst offenders as individuals, perhaps moan for a little bit and then move on.

Anyway... That's just my slant on things.
Buen Camino :arrow:
 
#8
This is one of the reasons why, in my opinion, the albergues just to be opened later. To avoid pilgrims to wake up so early.

Javier, preciosa foto. Que maravilla.

Buen Camino,

Javier Martin
Madrid, Spain.
 

Minkey

Active Member
#9
I think I have to agree with you on that one. It's such a shame for people to immediately cast dispersions on others, though sometimes it's kinda inevitable.

I hope we can all still be friends!
 
Camino(s) past & future
Many, various, and continuing.
#10
As for switching on lights and leaving at god-awful hours... you can take this up with the hospitalero the night before, if you have one on-site.

Personally, when I am hospitalera and I have the facility, I have been known to kill the lights in the dormitory at the electrical switch-box at bedtime, a trick I learned from the Good Sisters in Santo Domingo de la Calzada. (there are usually safety lights for emergencies.) That way, the rude people cannot turn on the lights and disturb everyone else.

I also have a real issue with "night-runners," the early risers who crash around before fleeing the place while it´s still dark, and generally make nuisances of themselves to their fellow pilgrims and just about everyone else in the district. (because they can´t see the waymarkers in the dark, they tend to get lost, too. And wake the neighborhood shouting directions at one another. But I guess it´s all worth it if you can get that donativo bed and repeat the whole process the next night!)

Again, when I am the hospitalera I warn the arriving pilgrims that the doors are locked at a specific time, and UN-locked at a specific time, a reasonable time... say 7 a.m. If they insist on leaving earlier, I insist they find someplace else to sleep. Unreasonable? Maybe. But I need to sleep, too.
 
#11
[*a reasonable time... say 7 a.m. If they insist on leaving earlier, I insist they find someplace else to sleep. Unreasonable?]
no, you are not unreasonable! This is one of the most practical solution to one of the many annoying aspect of communal living. As there is a set time for lights out made known to those wishing to use the albergue there should also be a set time for lights to go on and to unlock doors. Take it or leave it, you are the hospitalero.
Kwaheri
 

Minkey

Active Member
#12
Hmm... well I walked in the dark and I did it for a good reason. I made sure I was packed the night before so all I had to do was pack my sleeping bag (normally in a hallway) slap my trousers on and tie my boots. I usually head over there in August, so it gets hot. Very hot, by about midday.

By walking in the dark, you're reducing the time you spend in the heat.

PS. Wouldn't rules and restrictions and other bureaucratic regimes make the Camino a bit more... well... Tame?
 

alipilgrim

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2005), Frances (2007), Madrid/Frances (2011), 1/2 VdP (2012),
#13
I fully agree that the early risers are the bane of the Camino but just had a thought: if the doors are locked at night and people must stay inside until it is unlocked by the hospitelero, what if there's a fire? How would pilgrims get out in an emergency?
 
#14
Minkey said:
By walking in the dark, you're reducing the time you spend in the heat.

PS. Wouldn't rules and restrictions and other bureaucratic regimes make the Camino a bit more... well... Tame?
They would! And if you ask people, that have walked all the way from other countries (I know couple of them)- they will tell you, that it's the best way to get up very early and get rest in about a midday (when the heat is unbearable). They walk sometimes for months, and sleep in the tents, so they don't need to rush themselves to the next albergue (as there isn't any)- but they stiil get up at 5 in the morning! I have to say, that all those rules and restrictions you are talking about, will turn camino into some kind of long-distance fun walk and steal another chunk of freedom from every one of us PILGRIMS (not tourists!).
 
Camino(s) past & future
Many, various, and continuing.
#15
Yeah, it´s more tame. Sometimes you have to do that with people who act like animals.

The Camino Frances has been VERY "tame" for a very long time, and it´s getting even more so with every passing day... rules or no. And when you offer something for practically free to everybody and his sister, you´re going to attract an awful lot of awfulness. I think it´s up to pilgrims to police themselves and one another a bit more. Maybe the hospitalero shouldn´t have to be the only one to curb peoples´ thoughtlessness?

Seriously, though... There are still a hundred GOOD pilgrims for every one or two self-absorbed jerks.
 
#16
I think it´s up to pilgrims to police themselves and one another a bit more
Reb,

I have seen the pleading to be a good citizen on the camino from you and Sil, we shall see after the peak travel times over the next three months how good or how bad the situation is, and whether it has "tipped" into anarchy, and how the situation can be remedied. The hospitalero must maintain full control of the albergue, how this is done depends on the circumstances and jerks should be jerked off.
Kwaheri
 

Arn

Moderator
Staff member
#17
Minky wrote:I'm still friends with people from all over the world from my Camino experiences. Some Spanish, French, Belgian, Dutch, some Americans.
I resisted writing a negative comment, but this thread wakened a thought that I think is valid.

I met many folks on my Camino...as a peregrino that was injured, I met many folks of ALL nationalities that helped me , encouraged me and celebrated with me when I stood in the Cathedral Plaza at Santiago. Often they were Germans..at the same time, the most ignorant of the "protocols" of the Camino were the Germans. They drank hard, turned on the lights at all hours (evening and morning), talked on cell phones at all hours and basically made life difficult. On wash racks, they moved others items aside or threw on the ground, in the mornings, they took bread, cheese, jam and juice before others could get to table..stuffed it in their packs and took off...even though some of us had already paid for breakfast..all we got was water.

My Mom is German..I understand the mentality, but that doesn't remove the stigma that I felt. I wish it were otherwise.

Arn
 
#18
Arn said:
I wish it were otherwise
Me too.
And it's not only because of my nationality;)
But, like we have said many times- there's one black sheep in every herd. It just seems like german ones tend to have more than one. Please, remember why you are there- and that those people are suppose to be there and annoy you! It the way HE wants us to go.

Buen camino (Francees)!
Kuba.
 

Arn

Moderator
Staff member
#19
Kuba wrote:It the way HE wants us to go.
I quite agree...but He didn't have to listen to the businessman try to run his company from the Camino..we did! I left my phone just so I could experience the Camino...there were times I wanted to speak to those at home...to gather their encouragement and warmth when I needed it most...but to have to hear about the price of good labor or easy conversion of money market funds was a bit.

I drew my line at the wholesale "theft" of food in the morning that went into packs while the rest of us had water only Leaves a bad taste in one's mouth!!

I am humbled at the Camino and draw strength from the total experience. Please God give me the strength to overcome this minor "blip" on the screen.

Arn
 
Camino(s) past & future
Many, various, and continuing.
#20
There seems to be a lot of negativity in the air these days, in general.

We have hosted several GOOD pilgirms in the past few days -- dutch, german, korean, english, australian, and spanish. And with just about everyone began discussing his journey with descriptions of horrors lived and horrible people experienced. This is something new, and I think it´s a symptom of the overcrowding. It´s a matter of scale: there´s a percentage of idiots in every crowd. A few people = a few idiots. A crowd of people = a crowd of idiots. If a few idiots can make a great big group of people angry and bitter and crabby, I can see how this negativity can reach critical mass and contaminate otherwise nice folks into the angry, bitter, me-first selfishness.

It made me wonder, this morning in our Plaza Mayor. It is Blessed Sacrament Sunday, and we had a little procession around the church. The priest blessed the village from the door of a house in the plaza that was done-up in an arch of roses and wildflowers over a makeshift altar. It was really lovely, and several passing pilgrims stopped to watch and shoot pictures.

A pilgrim stopped me to ask what the ritual was about, and the parishioners went into the church for the final blessing. I started to explain to her. And we both watched while about six of the pilgrims happily began pulling flowers out of the floral arch and assembling bouquets and daisy-chains, as if it was all a private tourist show put on just for them. One even took one of the votive candles off the little altar and put it in his pack!

I stopped them, in no uncertain terms. They were insulted and dismayed at my behavior... one even called me a Bad Christian! I told them they´d best get on the road before everyone came out of church and saw what they´d done. And so they went. One called me an "English bitch" on his way out!

I don´t know where these people came from. I hope they don´t come back.
I wonder, if I had not been there, if any of their fellow pilgrims would have told these people to stop this outrageous behavior? Would you?
 

sillydoll

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2002 CF: 2004 from Paris: 2006 VF: 2007 CF: 2009 Aragones, Ingles, Finisterre: 2011 X 2 on CF: 2013 'Caracoles': 2014 CF and Ingles 'Caracoles":2015 Logrono-Burgos (Hospitalero San Anton): 2016 La Douay to Aosta/San Gimignano to Rome:
#21
I think we were so lucky last year - we didn't meet any horrible pilgrims, nearly all were happy, friendly, cheerful, well behaved. Even our hippie friends from Belgium were harmless, although they did try their luck to stay up late and sleep in late.
We didn't have to rush to get to the albergues and when we arrived we didn't have to queue for beds. We had a number of memorable evenings at some of the most basic albergues. The wonderful hospitality of the owner/hospitaleros and camraderie with other pilgrims was amazing.
There were a few ignorant people around. One guy was taking photographs inside the cathedral in Leon - even though there were "No Camera" signs everywhere. He even took photographs of these signs! And, in Santo Domingo de Silos, a man tried to surreptitiously video the chanting. One of the monks saw his camera, left the group and pointed to him from the stage, shaking his head and his finger at him.
I read a blog the other day where a pilgrim wrote about the hospitalero being very rude to them, not wanting them to stay at the albergue because they had caught the bus there! Perhaps these pilgrims are just ignorant rather than obnoxious?
I know that if I had seen them I would have done the same as you Reb.
 

Arn

Moderator
Staff member
#23
One of The best experiences and worst I had was in the albergue at Cazanova with a group from Bavaria. They were obviously a church group with young folks and several older than me. In their group was a Priest and they made me very welcome. In the evening they held a full Mass, which I took part in and the entire atmosphere was uplifting. They even had a Cantor who played a small hand trumpet that was fantastic. Later that evening, well past 2300, three adults camped out under the open window and talked till nearly 0030, the older gentleman smoked a pipe that billowed into the dorm and the lady had the most obnoxious cackle. Several days later, I met another German who mentioned this group and singled out three people in the group that were totally self absorbed right down to the cackling frau. Now...all that said, this is just one observation...in my entire Camino, which I am still on I might add. I met many, many more peregrinos of all nationalities that were just fantastic, giving and interested to be part of the pilgrimage.

As I go over My Camino, I am struck by the total effort ALL peregrinos make to draw as much strength from each other and help when needed.

This is a POSITIVE life changing event for me. God Bless you all!

Arn
 

falcon269

no commercial interests
Camino(s) past & future
yes
#24
Re: No good pilgrims ?

The Camino is a test on tolerance. A pilgrim should try to pass it!

I found it important to distinguish when my irritation was from other pilgrims doing something in a way that I would not do it, and true rudeness. Early risers who prepacked, used flashlights, and tried to move silently at 5 a.m. were just doing something I prefer not to do, and doing it as unobtrusively as possible. The pilgrim who got up early and turned on the albergue lights was rude. I did not feel out of line to ask that the light be turned off, though only one time in three did the rude person turn out the light! Had the light been turned on at 7 a.m., then it would have been inappropriate for me to complain; I may not have been ready to arise, but the hour was appropriate for arising. My preference should not control the rest of the pilgrims.

The key for me was to avoid expectations of appropriate behavior. I tried to treat others as I would like to be treated, but did not expect the same in return. Naturally, 99% of the time, others treated me as they wanted to be treated, and everyone was happy, but I was able to avoid irritation at the other 1% (who weren't usually German, by the way).
 
#26
Hallo all

I am not sure if the irritations generated are during the peak periods and only on the last 100-150 kms. The first time we did the camino was in October , from Ocebreiro to Santiago almost all the time, we met very few people , except in Portomarin, it was full. But we never had any issues with anybody. The second time was from Leon to Santiago and we ejoyed the camino upto Santiago , Portomarin was full and indeed the next time, we decided not to rest in Portomarin but either before or after.
I have read on other forums about the loutish behaviour of germans, but we met a great number of tehm and they were quite polite and friendly and i met a wonderful lady from Germany who even invited us to her home.

Regards
Bharat
 
#27
Java! Patience hombre! Even if you thought they were annoying, it is not acceptable to talk about it so explicitly in here (or anywhere to be honest). Besides, the unkindness you mentioned is not relative to one specific nationality. It is a very individual thing.
 
#28
I was just reeading through some old posts, and found thihs one... felt like giving my point of view.

When walking the camino, I find it to be a "test of one self" - in tolerance, in acceptance, in understanding and much more...

Does this mean we should tolerate, accept and try to understand those who are ignorant to others?

We have different levels of tolerance, accept and understanding... What is ok for one is not ok for another...

On all three of my Caminos I have prepacked my backpack in the evening before going to sleep. I was only an early riser on my first camino as I didn't know any better and was following the crowd... but always leaving quietly as others were still sleeping... last time I also prepacked as I didn't know what time I would want to leave in the morning... some mornings I left early as I couldn't sleep any longer... some morning all others weree long gone when I got up... I found this so called "bed-race" does not exist in September so why rush...??

As for the tolerance, acceptance and understanding, my was put to a test several times during all of them... lights that were turned on and off during the whole night... people who were talking louldly to one and another 5am... because they were ready to leave... people who were complaining loudly bacause there was no toilet paper in the alberque... because there were no hot water... because the hospitalero/a did not meet there wishes (as would they stay in a Hotel)... and people who would still ask for more when what they got was already for free... how much do we accept, tolerate, and understand...

I loved it.... really loved it, when I in 2005 stayed in the Alberque in Castrojerizt were Resti (the bearded hospitalero were setting the rules....) - 3 Spanish pilgrims came in when he was signing me into the book... they asked if they could have a look inside before the decided wheter they wanted to stay or not... Resti got up, and shouted at them... "This is a pilgrims alberque... not a Hotel... this is also for free... so if you want to stay, you get in line and take what you get or you leave.... " - He returned to me smiling saying "now where were we" hesigned me in told me about the RULES... you will be woken up at 7am... and you cannot leave before 7am... I looked at him saying "sounds good" - I love it when some albergues makes rules there takes EVERYBODY in to consideration... if 7am is too late for you? you can always find a new place...

Tolerance, accept and understanding also goes for all nationalities... The camino is walked by people from all over the world... we all have different cultures... different backgrounds... different behaviours... different opinons and ideas of how things should be... this does not mean when walking the camino in another country that we all should change all that... So why dont we just try to tolerate that, accept that and atleast try to understand that we are not all the same... and keep in my when you see something in others that you do not like... it is usually (not always but usually) a reflection of your self... so before you point your fingers at others... take a good look at your self... - As Michael Jackson sing... "If you want to change the world - start with your self..." What are you giving to others on the camino...?

I do know that in my diaries I complain about others getting up early... flashing the lights... being noisy... but once I am on the Camino walking... it is all forgotten. Why hold on to it?

"A pilgrim does not demand, a pilgrim is grateful...
He leaves what he can, and takes only that which he needs....
If you conform with the bare essentials, then what you don't really need seems a luxury...
If you keep stopping, then your progress is slow ..
and if you go quickly, you miss what is best ...
The sun will tell you the time to get up, light your way, so enjoy his company....
A good pilgrim is he who listens and hears the stones talk...
A roof to sleep under, a puddle to wash in, bread to eat, a wine to drink
and a Camino to walk.... If you get blisters ... bless them ....
and perhaps you won't get anything worse..."
 

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