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No more Botafumeiro 19.30 Friday mass

ivar

Administrator
Staff member
#1
When will the botafumeiro swing? Is one of the most asked questions by pilgrims in Santiago. The last few years, pilgrims have been assured that the friday afternoon mass (19.30/7.30pm) it will swing for sure. The reason for this is that the association of hotels and restaurants in Santiago has paid the Cathedral for this. Until now. It seems that they are not able to afford this, and the Cathedral is not swinging unless they get paid.

So, if there is no change to this... we are back to "no one really knows" when the botafumeiro will swing. It will most likely swing many times per week during the busy season, but nothing is scheduled and publicized.

http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...ernes/idEdicion-2017-01-08/idNoticia-1035326/

http://www.catedraldesantiago.es/en/node/482

:mad:
Ivar
 

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MichaelB10398

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Le Puy to Santiago de Compostela, Lourdes to SdC, SJPP to SdC
#5
In the 186 days from May to October last year the Botafumeiro was used 243 times! The cancellation of the Friday show is not a tragedy!
I agree that it is not a tragedy, but it is unfortunate that we have lost an event that was consistent, that could be relied upon, for new pilgrims and for those pilgrims wanting to see it again. I am curious what the cost was for the generous hotel/restaurant association up to this point? Maybe there are other ways of paying for it. Does anyone know?
 

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MichaelB10398

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Le Puy to Santiago de Compostela, Lourdes to SdC, SJPP to SdC
#7
Camino(s) past & future
C/F: 2013, 2014
C/M: 2016
C/P: 2015, 2017
C/I: 2018
Voluntario: 2014 to 2018
#8
I have worked in the Pilgrim Office for two consecutive summers. I can tell you than as of 2016 the, per use price was up to €400. One day, I accidentally saw that number on a reservation form lying atop a desk. Uh-oh, I am busted!

At that moment, I recall thinking that it was cheap considering the huge value it provides to the assembled congregation at the Mass and the commercial enterprises in the city. It is also reasonable when one considers all the effort that goes into using the botafumeiro each time it "flies."

In this regard, I suspect the €250 price quoted by Wikipedia is either out of date, or perhaps a "volume discount" price given to a "volume" customer like the hotel and commercial group who had funded it previously. A scan of the references and bibliography at the end of the quoted Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botafumeiro) suggests the last edit was in 2008. So, the price could certainly have increased over eight or nine years.

Just as an FYI, the tiraboleiros who pull the ropes are lay persons who must be paid per incident. They are not monks, seminarians, or priests who might have done this for free in past centuries.

Also, each and every time the botafumeiro is used, it must be thoroughly cleaned and prepared for the next "flight." Actually, it is quite a lot of work.

As with other issues in Spain, I am certain there is more to this than meets the eye.

I hope this helps.

Post-Posting EDIT:

I just read the el Correo Gallego article in English. Thank you Google Translate! Anyway, the article states that three commercial organizations in Santiago de Compostela EACH paid €4,000 to fund the Botafumeiro for the season. That would be a total of €12,000.

It may sound like a large sum. However, if you use the €400 per use figure I mentioned earlier and divide it into the 12k total, the result is exactly 30 uses of the Botafumeiro.

I suggest that corresponds to the full tourist "season" of Fridays, running from April through the end of October. I counted the Fridays and came up with 30. In 2017, I suspect you may have to discount and back out the first two-weeks of April as being during Lent and Good Friday. but you get the general idea.

Thus, I suspect the agreement was not for 52 weeks, but for the 30-week (ish) tourist season...

The only way the average per use approached €250 is if the agreement were for the full 52-week year, LESS the handful of solemn days on which flying the botafumeiro might not be appropriate, like Good Friday, for example. But, I stand by the original €400 mentioned in my post.

I hope this helps further...
 
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Camino(s) past & future
Several and counting...
#9
I have been to SdC to finish 5 caminos IIRC. And I have never failed to witness the botafumeiro in action, a total I would say of 8 times. (I have been to pilgrim Masses more than once per visit.) Having seen it once, it is not on any checklist of essentials for me - just a pleasant diversion. But I know people do like to see it, and I noted a couple of times that the Friday evening Mass had a bigger turnout than the midday Mass on the same day, possibly because of the 'certainty'. It is a shame not to have the certainty (although I'm not sure how relevant as presumably most (of all) pilgrims are not there on a Friday anyway). For those who are willing to go to Mass more than once, there seems to me a good chance of seeing it. But I am not saying I think people should go to Mass more than once if they don't want to! :)
I remember one year 'racing' with my nephew from Arzua to get to the midday Mass, because it was Ascension Thursday, and there seemed to be a general belief that the botafumeiro would be in use on a solemnity (that is an important Church feast). But the feast day had been transferred (as is common) to the Sunday, and there was no botafumeiro! Ironically, although the Church feast had been moved, the 'secular' feast had not and there was a four day fiesta in town, with a lot of live music around the Cathedral.
 
#10
The cathedral has always maintained that they will not publish the times when the Botafumeiro will be used because they want people to go to church simply to worship not to see the Botafumeiro. A few years ago the then boss of the Pilgrims Office used to post the times and dates when the Botafumeiro would be used on the noticeboard. However the cathedral ordered that this be discontinued.
 
Camino(s) past & future
CF SJPdP to SdC
(May 2015)
CF Sarria to SdC
(May 2016)
CF SJPDP-SdC
(Apr/May 2018)
VdlP (2020)
#11
I can understand the Cathedral not wanting to turn the Pilgrim mass into a Circus Sideshow. It can feel a bit like that at times with the hundreds of cameras in action, with what seems like Pilgrims dotted amongst coach loads of tourists. (looks about 50/50?)

But as first time pilgrims in particular, we all hope to see the Botafumeiro in use. On my first Camino (2015) I tried to make sure I arrived (early June) at Santiago on a Friday, but couldn't get there till Saturday. I saw it swing once (at the first one) in 4 Masses. So there is an interesting point, was Friday a rush on accommodation because of the previous certainty of seeing it swing?

This year walking with my wife I made sure we arrived on a Friday (early June), catching the noon Mass. It was likely to be her only Camino and she was naturally keen to see the Botafumeiro swing. We attended 3 Masses and saw it swing 3 times !

Perhaps tour groups are paying for it more frequently now and that could be why the Hotel Association stopped?
 
#12
In the press reports the Hotel Association say they have no money. I don't really know but I suspect there is some political brinkmanship going on - the Friday Botafumeiro which was only introduced a few years ago is a great tourist attraction therefore I suspect the hoteliers and the cathedral want the regional government department of tourism to put up the cash. Watch this space!
 

ivar

Administrator
Staff member
#13
In the press reports the Hotel Association say they have no money. I don't really know but I suspect there is some political brinkmanship going on - the Friday Botafumeiro which was only introduced a few years ago is a great tourist attraction therefore I suspect the hoteliers and the cathedral want the regional government department of tourism to put up the cash. Watch this space!
I think so too... so the last word had not yet been said on this I think
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances: September - October 2016
Porto > Santiago - April 2018
#14
When I was there October 5 - 11 I went to several Masses and it was done each time. It was my first Camino and I was surprised based upon my 4 years of reading about the pilgrimage. It still was thrilling to see the men coming out to make it happen.

There are a few other things about money and the church that make me scratch my head. The other one is the coin operated LED candles. Somehow it is just not the same as a silent time before a wick being lit and seeing that light and the tiny puff of smoke going forth in sync with one's prayer. Ah, progress....

Peace, as is promised ....
 
Camino(s) past & future
23 May (2016)
#15
In the 186 days from May to October last year the Botafumeiro was used 243 times! The cancellation of the Friday show is not a tragedy!
Johnnie, the botafumiero is a religious experience, it isn't a show, or production, or any other entertainment analogy.
And for those pilgrims who are truly religious pilgrims, and have designed their pilgrimage to end on a day when the botafumiero is used during mass, it may not be a "tragedy" but it is a bit of a heartbreak.

In all due respect, have mercy on the pilgrims, and resist the urge to denigrate.
 

Stivandrer

Perambulating & Curious
Camino(s) past & future
I´ve got Camino plans until 2042,
- or till I fall flat on my face, whichever comes first !!
#16
@ivar,
I saw someone post the original Spanish notice about the possible cancellation of Friday Botufumeiro services due to the cost of it, as it is privately funded when the Botu swings on this day.

I was thinking if there could be a crowdfunding angle to this as I have enjoyed the gift of some locals paying for my celebration at entering Santiago. And in gratitude I would naturally be willing to drop some cash locally for others to have the same thrilling experience.
It still sticks to my mind, on my retina as a communal way of celebrating life and togetherness ...

And would you consider setting up a service in this forum for us to funnel some funds into this effort !??
 
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Bradypus

Antediluvian
Camino(s) past & future
Too many and too often!
#17
In all due respect, have mercy on the pilgrims, and resist the urge to denigrate.
I'm sure that @JohnnieWalker can speak for himself. I'd just like to say that there are probably very few contributors to this forum who have given as much to Santiago pilgrims in recent years and who continue to do as much to sustain and promote their positive experience. I read nothing derogatory or dismissive in John's words: no more than the gentlest trace of humour.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Mar 2010, May/Jun 2016, Sep 2011, 2012, Apr 2014, St Olav's Way 2018
#18
Johnnie, the botafumiero is a religious experience, it isn't a show, or production, or any other entertainment analogy.
I'm sorry Jennifer, but if you cannot see that the Catholic liturgy is designed and conducted as stage performance, you have blinkers on. Without denigrating the religious experience in any way, the mass is educational story-telling performance at its very best. It is undertaken by well rehearsed individuals, often in wonderfully elaborate and intricate costumes and performed on stages ranging from the plain to extraordinarily elaborate. The mass is broadly themed, but with an episodic nature as the church celebrates the cycle of religious seasons and its saints. And while the religious climax of a mass in the cathedral at Santiago might not be the swinging of the botafumeiro, it is certainly a dramatic culmination that leaves the congregation in awe.
 

Kanga

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Francés x 5, Le Puy x 2, Arles, Tours, Norte, Madrid, Via de la Plata.
#19
Often the tour groups are denigrated by "real pilgrims" (not by me - I've met some lovely, very genuine pilgrims who arrived by coach) but we can all be grateful that they so often pay for the botafumeiro to swing.
 

ivar

Administrator
Staff member
#20
@ivar,
I saw someone post the original Spanish notice about the possible cancellation of Friday Botufumeiro services due to the cost of it, as it is privately funded when the Botu swings on this day.

I was thinking if there could be a crowdfunding angle to this as I have enjoyed the gift of some locals paying for my celebration at entering Santiago. And in gratitude I would naturally be willing to drop some cash locally for others to have the same thrilling experience.
It still sticks to my mind, on my retina as a communal way of celebrating life and togetherness ...

And would you consider setting up a service in this forum for us to funnel some funds into this effort !??
I may look into this...
 
#22
I must be a terribly perverse creature as I lean towards the cathedral's take on this. I go to mass every day when in Santiago but at the end of my first Camino when I heard that a group of pilgrims had paid for the botafumeiro, I decided to set off for Finisterre instead of attending. As Doug has pointed out, the mass itself is performance but it never fails to move me - perhaps because, as a non-Catholic, I don't know what's going on most of the time so the best I can do is soak up the atmosphere.

Even though I know that the botafumeiro has been paid for every time I've seen it, I like the randomness of it and don't want to know when it is going to be swung. The disappointment felt when it is not in evidence says more about our expectations. Surely that's something for us to work out individually rather than expect the cathedral to change its habits to meet our expectations.

Would your pilgrimage be any the less life-changing if you didn't see the botafumeiro at the end of it?
 

Kanga

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Francés x 5, Le Puy x 2, Arles, Tours, Norte, Madrid, Via de la Plata.
#25
I like the fact that in this day and age it is something real, not a product of electronics, that catches people by surprise and strikes them with awe. That communal intake of breath from the congregation, as it swings high overhead...Definitely worth sitting in the transepts to get the full effect.
 

Bradypus

Antediluvian
Camino(s) past & future
Too many and too often!
#26
Heck, it was in the movie.
Oh dear! Yet another gold standard to let us know what a real camino is all about. Paulo Coelho, Shirley MacLaine, John Brierley, and now especially for the Whatsapp generation it's Emilio ***** Estevez! It's very late at night here and I'm just about to head off for bed. If I wasn't at least 90% sure that Paul had his tongue firmly in his cheek as he typed I might never summon up the will to get out of it again......:)
 

MCFearnley

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Ponferrada to Santiago (September 2016)
#27
I reached Santiago on a Saturday and went to the noon mass on the Sunday. I had no idea if the botafumeiro was to swing or not. I went to the mass for the mass, even if I am Anglican. However, it was a nice surprise that it did. I respected the no camera requirement for the duration of the mass, but I pulled out my camera and filmed for a minute. The mass had ended at that point and felt no qualms filming then. It happened, it was cool, but I had no expectations regarding it. I had not seen The Way before going. Watched it after and thought meh, nice story, but it does not give any sense of the Camino as I experienced it - way too neatly packaged in 2 hours and something minutes.
 
A

Anemone del Camino

Guest
#28
I respected the no camera requirement for the duration of the mass, but I pulled out my camera and filmed for a minute. The mass had ended at that point and felt no qualms filming then.
Does the Botafumeiro really swing after mass has ended? My memory may be off, bit I think mass keeps going after the swing. No?
 

ShellsG

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (Sept/Oct. 2015)
#31
I like the fact that in this day and age it is something real, not a product of electronics, that catches people by surprise and strikes them with awe. That communal intake of breath from the congregation, as it swings high overhead...Definitely worth sitting in the transepts to get the full effect.
But it doesn't catch you by surprise, its planned and the majority of the people at the mass I attended were there, imho, not for the mass but for the "show" and that is the word I will use. People were pushing and shoving, they were being horridly disrespectful of the poor ushers who were trying to keep order, there were elderly towns people being pushed to the outer most corners by the throngs of people. There were so many arms holding up cameras that you couldn't see a thing even if you wanted. It made me sad that this was what the event was. One lady refused to share an entire pew as she had spread herself across it with her legs and purse "saving it for friends" who arrived well after the mass had started. She was awful to an elderly lady who wished to sit .. I got up from the concrete block I was sitting on and offered my place which she gratefully accepted. It left a very poor taste in my mouth and I know that on this next camino I have no desire to see such the show again.
 

Older Guy

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Francis -May 2016 by bike---Loved it
#32
I must say that I am moved by the observations of those that have commented. Far too many people don't treat the Cathedral as a religious house with Holy relics. I understand the church wanting people to come and pray. I also understand how moving the singing combined with the dance of the botafumeiro.

I also understand that while tourism along the Camino is up, in many places in Europe tourism is down. Spain is still recovering economically, so people and the Church may be trying to be fugal.

As one person asked, "Would your pilgrimage be any the less life-changing if you didn't see the botafumeiro at the end of it?" No, my Camino would not have been less life changing. Was confessing in the Cathedral, hugging the statue of St. James, attending Mass three times and seeing the botafumeiro swinging and flying twice moving? Yes. I hope some accommodation can be worked out.
 
Camino(s) past & future
C/F: 2013, 2014
C/M: 2016
C/P: 2015, 2017
C/I: 2018
Voluntario: 2014 to 2018
#33
Several points of clarification (if we have a Catholic priest or deacon in the thread (or Johnnie Walker), please correct me if I misstated something):

1. The Botafumeiro flies at the end of the Mass, after the celebrant (priest) has administered the final blessing to the assembled congregation and announced; "the Mass is ended...go in peace" or something similar. The hymn accompanying the "flying" of the Botafumeiro is used as the exit hymn.

2. The conventional order of a Catholic Mass would almost always have the use of any incenser (thurible), including the Botafumeiro, at the beginning of the liturgy (Mass). This is commonly seen in Catholic Mass and some "high" Anglican services, where the celebrant uses the incenser to bless and sanctify the altar before beginning the liturgy of the Mass, or in the case of a funeral the coffin or urn of the deceased, and at a wedding, the bride and groom. It may also be used at other points within the process of the liturgy.

3. During most the millennia, and more, that the Camino de Santiago has been in and out of vogue, the Botafumeiro would have been used BEFORE the Mass. Many of you, in your reading and research, already know that the Botafumeiro was used, in part to carry the prayers of the assembled faithful upward to Heaven on the "holy" smoke. You also came to learn that the fragrance of the Frankincense used was partially intended to overcome or mask the accumulated odor of the unwashed hoards of assembled people. Daily bathing and common use of soap were largely unknown and not-practiced a thousand years ago.

4. Years ago, the Archbishop decided to move the use of the Botafumeiro to the exact point the Mass officially ends, which is just after the celebrant delivers the final blessing to close the liturgy (Mass). I do not know the exact sequence of events, but one supposes it was a fairly contemporary decision, made in response to the behavior of both pilgrims and tourists having cameras.

Discussion: Were the use of the Botafumeiro restored to it's traditional and liturgically correct position vis-a-vis the Order of the Liturgy (Mass), there would be no end to the distraction and interruptions caused by the "tourists." Similarly, the sanctity of the Mass would be totally disturbed and "derailed" by this spectacle. Those of you who has witnessed the "flying" of the Botafumeiro can well imagine how difficult it would be to restore order and continue with the solemn liturgy.

So, the Mass is the whole point. Using the Botafumeiro is a historical side-note to the liturgy. It is unfortunate that it has become a circus-like event. But that is the nature of our contemporary society. The Archbishop and Cathedral staff should be commended for maintaining the degree of decorum as they do.

I hope this helps the dialog.
 
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#34
Having made it to Santiago more then a couple of times over the years, I love seeing the "event" at the end of the mass. It is not the reason I walk, just a sort of Camino bonus.
The real Camino gold, is the time for reflection and meditation. Like packing my rucksack before walking, I have to remember that sometimes less is really more!
If however the motive is for more bums on seats and bed nights in Santiago then then spiritual journey a Camino can be, swing away! I can't believe that the commercial community in Santiago can't afford this, every time I visit there are new hostels and hotels.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Several and counting...
#35
Several points of clarification (if we have a Catholic priest or deacon in the thread (or Johnnie Walker), please correct me if I misstated something):
Does the Botafumeiro really swing after mass has ended? My memory may be off, bit I think mass keeps going after the swing. No?
A Catholic priest speaks:
@t2andreo is correct.
The thurible, which is the metal container swung on chains, whihc contains glowing charcoal, on to which (frank)incense is put to make scented smoke, is used liturgically at a High Mass (historically) or at a Mass on a solemnity, (although a priest may choose to use it at any Mass).
In such a Mass, it is used during the entrance procession, at the beginning of the Mass to incencse the altar, at the Gospel, to incense the book, at the offertory to incense the offerings, and then the celebrant, and then "the people". It is then used at the time of elevation, (part of the consecration), the central part of the liturgy. Thereafter it is usually removed completely and not used again during the Mass.
The last half dozen times when I have seen the botafumeiro in use in SdC I am quite definite that it was used after the Mass was finished. Each time I was concelebrating Mass at the altar and on four separate occasions was asked to take part by adding a spoonful of incense to the bowl before it started swinging. I am past getting excited by this but my nephew who had walked with me thought it was uber uber cool!!
My hazy recollection of Pentecost Sunday (a major solemnity) about 8 years ago in SdC was that the botafumeiro was used at the beginning of Mass, but I would not swear to that in a court of law.
The thurible and incense are used also during a funeral Mass, but only after the Mass has finished, during the "final commendation" as a sign of reverence, along with Holy Water, to the body in its coffin.
The thurible and incense are used during Benediction, a devotion where the Eucharistic host is exposed for veneration by the faithful, but without Mass taking place.
It is also used at solemn Vespers (monastic style evening prayer).
Technically then, the botafumeiro is not used liturgically during the Mass in SdC, (not that I think this is a big issue).
In the "olden days" (just slightly before my time) before the reform of the liturgy following Vatican II in the 1960s there were many rules and regulations, in a book called Fortescue and O'Connell, which listed in considerable detail how and when a thurible should be used, and how many "clicks" different prelates would receive.
A single quote will give you the flavour:
"The double swing ('ductus duplex') is made by raising the thurible to the level of the face, then swinging it out towards the object or person to be incensed, repeating this outward swing, and then lowering the thurible."
You can doubtless infer the existence of a ductus simplex.
Twice recently I was interested to see the use of thurible and incense in a procession at Canterbury Cathedral (Anglican).
Technical note. The metal container which swings and releases smoke is a thurible. The person who carries and swings it is called a thurifer. The incense before use is kept in a container which is called a boat.
 
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ShellsG

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (Sept/Oct. 2015)
#36
Having made it to Santiago more then a couple of times over the years, I love seeing the "event" at the end of the mass. It is not the reason I walk, just a sort of Camino bonus.
The real Camino gold, is the time for reflection and meditation. Like packing my rucksack before walking, I have to remember that sometimes less is really more!
If however the motive is for more bums on seats and bed nights in Santiago then then spiritual journey a Camino can be, swing away! I can't believe that the commercial community in Santiago can't afford this, every time I visit there are new hostels and hotels.
And for me, and speaking only for me, if I had attended a mass and the the butafumeiro was used just as a happen-chance I would have been thrilled and yes, it would have been an amazing Camino bonus. It would have created, again for me only, a less circus like atmosphere and would have been much more spiritual for me. Part of the issue for me was all the chatter that occurred all the way through the mass because people were not there for the mass, they were there for yes, the final event. It was terribly disrespectful of the clergy, of the towns folk who attend as their regular mass and for any one else who was there to listen to the mass or engage their spiritual side in the mass. I really do not mean any offence with my uses of words like "event" or "show" but to me that is what it was.

My Camino was not predicated on whether I could/would see the butafumerio and was certainly not the reason I embarked on this journey.
 

Bradypus

Antediluvian
Camino(s) past & future
Too many and too often!
#38
Twice recently I was interested to see the use of thurible and incense in a procession at Canterbury Cathedral (Anglican).
Reminded me of the story of an Orthodox priest meeting an Anglican priest for the first time. Understandably he had trouble working out quite what that meant:
"So you're a sort of Catholic then?"
"No...not exactly....not quite."
"Do you use incense at Mattins?"
"No."
"Well that proves it. You must be a Catholic."

Fortescue and O'Connell sounds like a gripping read. There is a remarkable Victorian Anglo-Catholic guide to ceremonial which I find one of the most ludicrous and yet entertaining pieces of prose ever written: Ritual Notes. I keep a copy on hand for when I run out of Tom Sharpe or PG Wodehouse to re-read. Some kind person even digitized it and posted it online. The frontispiece is a diagram showing exactly how to cense an altar:
http://anglicanhistory.org/liturgy/ritual_notes_1894/

PS. @andy.d and I once had to improvise a thurible to fill Iona Abbey with incense before an evening service. Used a baked bean tin and copper wire. Not very successful so I sent him off to borrow one from the nearby Anglican retreat house :)
 
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Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2016)
#39
Or, if you are lucky, and you arrive in SdC on a Feast Day, as we did last June 2016 (St John), surely the Botafumeiro would be used? Coincidentally though, it was a Friday...
 
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Camino(s) past & future
May 2016, Sarria to Santiago.
#40
I had quite a spiritual sense during the Mass (and - without wanting to do a "Shirley Maclaine" on you all - I seemed to connect spontaneously with my ancestors who were Portuguese and may have lived in Galicia) and I was delighted when I realised that the Botafumeiro was being prepared - it was a weekday holy day, but I hadn't realised that at the time.
However I found the "photo desperation behaviour" around me to be a disconcerting end to a lovely Mass, and, dare I say it..... the swinging of the thurible I found to be rather disappointing, because it seemed so small from where I was sitting (compared to seeing it close up in "The Way"!) Having said that, I might have freaked out if I was sitting right under its path!
I guess what I'm saying is..... expectations and assumptions in life can sometimes lead to disappointment, yet my excitement then disappointment about my Botafumeiro experience made no lasting impression on my wonderful Camino pilgrimage.
If politicking or thrift or whatever other dynamics are in play can be overcome so that the Botafumeiro is swung regularly then well and good, if it adds to people's positive experience.
 

Stivandrer

Perambulating & Curious
Camino(s) past & future
I´ve got Camino plans until 2042,
- or till I fall flat on my face, whichever comes first !!
#41
I found the best seat by sitting on one of the stairs leading out to/from the crossarms of ther cathedral. This way the Botafumeiro was coming right at me and leaning back I could see the giant leap up into the air. Every one around me was quiet and thoughtful and people who I met along the way, we were exchanging glances with each other. I find it rewarding to have reached a goal of my life, all alone by myself, but in the company of others, in itself a beautiful contradiction.... I am glad to have seen this spectacle that has such important content. Maybe this is the only Botafumeiro flying I will ever need, and I might not need to crowd a place that somebody else might want, when their first moment comes.........
 
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Camino(s) past & future
April (2015) SJPdP to SdC; Porto to SdC April (2016)
#42
Apologies for having highlighted this many times before. but for those who have posted in this thread and many earlier related threads, of their feelings of anti-climax when attending the Mass in Santiago Cathedral, please, please, try to attend one of the smaller masses held in the side chapels of the cathedral before leaving the city. These services are variously in German, English and other languages, so for those of us who might not be able to understand Spanishof the larger Mass, it is a good way of engaging with the significance of the liturgy. These are intimate gatherings even though the small chapels are packed to the doors. I am an Anglican not a Catholic, but felt welcomed on completion of the two Caminos when I have attended the English Mass. No botofumeiro, so no spectacle, no cameras or I-pads hoisted aloft, just pilgrims weary, emotionally open to one another and thanking God for a safe journey, the gifts of life, the strength and health that made walking possible, the fellowship of those we met on the Way as well as those back home, and offering prayers for others in pain or in need of consolation. You can't make a movie out of such experiences. Oh, and yes it was wonderful to witness the swinging of the botofumeiro at the end of my second Camino, but marred by the scrum to get the best shots.
This is probably unfeasible but how about the cathedral authorities requiring all those attending with cameras to pay a fee for being able to use their equipment within the building. If properly overseen it should easily cover the cost of the spectacle.
 

Bradypus

Antediluvian
Camino(s) past & future
Too many and too often!
#43
@SEB I very much agree with what you say about the smaller, more intimate services in the cathedral. In 2015 I walked to Rome in midsummer and arrived at St Peter's shortly before noon. I couldn't bear to enter the scrum in and around the basilica there and then - especially as on a previous tourist visit I had found it a surprisingly hollow experience for such a magnificent and historic building. So I found a room nearby and returned in early morning just as the doors opened. Completely different atmosphere: masses being said for small groups, or by a priest alone at an altar. People moving quietly, reverently and purposefully. Down in the crypt just myself and a nun standing in silence at Peter's tomb. What struck me then was that the basilica is not so much one monolithic building but an enclosure protecting many more intimate spaces. I think that is true of many great churches, Santiago included.

Must disagree on charging a camera fee though. I am always uneasy when churches start levying fees for visits and related matters: though I think that charging for attached museums is perfectly reasonable. Frankly I'd rather see a complete ban on photography during services which is rigorously enforced - even if it means seriously embarrassing the offenders.
 
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A

Anemone del Camino

Guest
#44
...by the way I saw in the paper today that there will be a meeting in the "next few days" between the local government and the restaurant/ hotel association about this. I bet that this will work itself out somehow...
I don't it. The thing flies so often. I just pop my head in a few minutes before mass and if the cord is down it means the show will be on. If not, just pop back in a few minutes before the next mass. With so many masses a day, unless you are arriving to Santiago to head out to the airport just after having hugged the statue and visited the crypt, you will see the flying botafumeiro.

Bit it's a whole lot of money at play for the Church who has a whole lot of € to spend to keep the cathedral in tip top shape, which it deserves to be.
 

amorfati1

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2014_Caminho Portuguese (Lisboa to Santiago_4 weeks in May)
#46
In the 186 days from May to October last year the Botafumeiro was used 243 times! The cancellation of the Friday show is not a tragedy!
pardon moi - ich bin perplexed: a "Show"? It's a church , a cathedral, a place of worship.
Aren't shows scheduled in the theatre / a circus / a zoo ?
is it called a show because it's paid for? curious -
And thanks for the update for sure!
 
A

Anemone del Camino

Guest
#47
pardon moi - ich bin perplexed: a "Show"? It's a church , a cathedral, a place of worship.
Aren't shows scheduled in the theatre / a circus / a zoo ?
I think that is exactly the point. By scheduling based on received income it is for many now seen as a show. And many of those many, I'm sure, would prefer the cathedral be treated,and act, as the place of worship it is.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 2012
England C2C 2015
Via Francigena 2016
Le Puy 2018
#48
A Catholic priest speaks...
The thurible, which is the metal container swung on chains, whihc contains glowing charcoal, on to which (frank)incense is put to make scented smoke, is used liturgically at a High Mass (historically) or at a Mass on a solemnity...
Thanks so much for providing this information. I didn't like the iPhones filming but really enjoyed this part of the mass. After mass, we wandered to a jewelry store adjacent to the cathedral. Inside, one of the men who swung the thurible was chatting with the owner. They asked if we had been to the mass and sure enough, we recognized the man (he's also in "The Way"). He invited us to join him for a walk down the street, where he showed us a smaller, similar censer in a shop window. He was quite honored and proud to be part of this ancient ritual and it was a privilege to spend a bit of time learning about it from one of the community members.

I came home and researched a bit, given my Protestant ignorance of the service. Biblicalarcheology.org has several articles on the magis' gifts of gold (representing kingship), frankincense (priestly role) and myrrh (foretelling the death/embalming).

frankincense.jpg
Frankincense, image courtesy of biblicalarcheology.org.

Some other tidbits jumped out in the literature. One of my favorites is that Katherine of Aragon, daughter of Spanish King Ferdinand/Queen Isabella and future wife of Henry VIII, went to mass in Santiago de Compostela on the way to meet her future husband. The thurible swung so high that it flew out the window into the plaza outside the cathedral. Another claims that frankincense and myrrh were used in the Middle East in Jesus' time as an insect repellant. Perhaps that is an answer to the current bedbug issue?

Would love to hear more on this fascinating topic...
 
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N

nathanael

Guest
#49
When will the botafumeiro swing? Is one of the most asked questions by pilgrims in Santiago. The last few years, pilgrims have been assured that the friday afternoon mass (19.30/7.30pm) it will swing for sure. The reason for this is that the association of hotels and restaurants in Santiago has paid the Cathedral for this. Until now. It seems that they are not able to afford this, and the Cathedral is not swinging unless they get paid.

So, if there is no change to this... we are back to "no one really knows" when the botafumeiro will swing. It will most likely swing many times per week during the busy season, but nothing is scheduled and publicized.

http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...ernes/idEdicion-2017-01-08/idNoticia-1035326/

http://www.catedraldesantiago.es/en/node/482

:mad:
Ivar
Ivar, greetings a New Year filled with many blessings. On the Swinging of the censer, never have been a believer of it although saw it once but was wondering if it was important or just a matter of theatrics. Nevertheless if it does something for others well so be it. Cannot though understand why hotels and restaurants not willing to pay for it? After all the pilgrims are bringing good revenues to Santiago. Nevertheless my humble feelings.
 
Camino(s) past & future
April (2015) SJPdP to SdC; Porto to SdC April (2016)
#50
@SEB I very much agree with what you say about the smaller, more intimate services in the cathedral. In 2015 I walked to Rome in midsummer and arrived at St Peter's shortly before noon. I couldn't bear to enter the scrum in and around the basilica there and then - especially as on a previous tourist visit I had found it a surprisingly hollow experience for such a magnificent and historic building. So I found a room nearby and returned in early morning just as the doors opened. Completely different atmosphere: masses being said for small groups, or by a priest alone at an altar. People moving quietly, reverently and purposefully. Down in the crypt just myself and a nun standing in silence at Peter's tomb. What struck me then was that the basilica is not so much one monolithic building but an enclosure protecting many more intimate spaces. I think that is true of many great churches, Santiago included.

Must disagree on charging a camera fee though. I am always uneasy when churches start levying fees for visits and related matters: though I think that charging for attached museums is perfectly reasonable. Frankly I'd rather see a complete ban on photography during services which is rigorously enforced - even if it means seriously embarrassing the offenders.
Absolutely. I would grab those people by the ear and drag them out the door. And those wandering around. No. Simply no.QUOTE]

Thank you Bradypus and Anemone del Camino for your comments and for correcting my suggestion. You are quite right, a ban would be preferable but, as some people attending the Mass exhibit total disrespect for the faith of others by taking photographs even during the blessing and the giving of the sacrament I doubt that there would ever be sufficient security staff to eject rude sightseers who prefer the securing of the 'object' (the photograph) to being involved in the actual experience. If it was just their loss I would not bother but the scrum to secure the best camera vantage point diminishes the sacred atmosphere that should be an integral part of the Mass.
Thank you again to Johnny Walker for all that he does to ensure the continuation of the English Mass in the side chapel.
 

Tia Valeria

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Pt Norte/Pmtvo 2010
C. Inglés 2011
C. Primitivo '12
Norte-C. de la Reina '13
C. do Mar-C. Inglés '15
#52
My hazy recollection of Pentecost Sunday (a major solemnity) about 8 years ago in SdC was that the botafumeiro was used at the beginning of Mass, but I would not swear to that in a court of law.
Yes, we were there on that occasion in 2009. The Botofumeiro was used early in the Mass before the procession with the statue of St James. This procession and the Archbishop passed up the side aisle and down the centre aisle to the high Altar to begin Mass. We noted the respect shown as there was no flashes. Also there were fewer pilgrims back then, and a number of local ladies made up the congregation numbers.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Several and counting...
#53
Yes, we were there on that occasion in 2009. The Botofumeiro was used early in the Mass before the procession with the statue of St James. This procession and the Archbishop passed up the side aisle and down the centre aisle to the high Altar to begin Mass. We noted the respect shown as there was no flashes. Also there were fewer pilgrims back then, and a number of local ladies made up the congregation numbers.
Thanks so much for confirming that, @Tia Valeria - that was my first time in Santiago, definitely 2009 - May 31. I have slightly more grasp on my memory than I thought! ;)
 
Camino(s) past & future
Several and counting...
#54
Fortescue and O'Connell sounds like a gripping read. There is a remarkable Victorian Anglo-Catholic guide to ceremonial which I find one of the most ludicrous and yet entertaining pieces of prose ever written: Ritual Notes. I keep a copy on hand for when I run out of Tom Sharpe or PG Wodehouse to re-read. Some kind person even digitized it and posted it online. The frontispiece is a diagram showing exactly how to cense an altar:
http://anglicanhistory.org/liturgy/ritual_notes_1894/
Yes the two books are definitely from the same stable! And equally amusing. Thanks for the link. I don't think F&O'C is online. It keeps getting republished.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Several and counting...
#55
Reminded me of the story of an Orthodox priest meeting an Anglican priest for the first time. Understandably he had trouble working out quite what that meant:
"So you're a sort of Catholic then?"
"No...not exactly....not quite."
"Do you use incense at Mattins?"
"No."
"Well that proves it. You must be a Catholic."
Still laughing at this. :)
If anyone wants an absolute master class in the physical practicalities of being a thurifer, I can recommend nothing better than attending orthodox vespers.
 

Tia Valeria

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Pt Norte/Pmtvo 2010
C. Inglés 2011
C. Primitivo '12
Norte-C. de la Reina '13
C. do Mar-C. Inglés '15
#56
Thanks so much for confirming that, @Tia Valeria - that was my first time in Santiago, definitely 2009 - May 31. I have slightly more grasp on my memory than I thought! ;)
A wonderful service (2009). We also were privileged to see the Botofumeiro in 2011 and 2012. The final time in Santiago we chose to attend the English Mass as we felt that was right for us that year. It has always been the Mass itself that was most important, the Botofumeiro was an added gift.

PS:- Using the thurible. If you need to practise - borrow a ladies handbag with a long strap. ;)
 
Camino(s) past & future
C/F: 2013, 2014
C/M: 2016
C/P: 2015, 2017
C/I: 2018
Voluntario: 2014 to 2018
#57
...by the way I saw in the paper today that there will be a meeting in the "next few days" between the local government and the restaurant/ hotel association about this. I bet that this will work itself out somehow...
In Santiago, there is ALWAYS more to a story like this than meets the eye at first...;)

The American politician and long-time Speaker of the House of Representatives, Thomas P. "Tip" O'Neill is famous for coining the phrase "...all politics is local..." Over the decades, and especially during my three decades of government service, I have constantly found this to be true. Ultimately , all political issues, often rooted in economic concerns, are indeed locally-based.

Never were truer words spoken when referring to political, and economic issues in Santiago de Compostela...

Stay tuned folks...
 

Bradypus

Antediluvian
Camino(s) past & future
Too many and too often!
#58
PS:- Using the thurible. If you need to practise - borrow a ladies handbag with a long strap. ;)
A friend of mine who will remain nameless was thurifer in his local Anglican church. Just moments before a Sunday mass began he was in the sacristy fanning the hot charcoal before adding the incense. In doing so he burned his finger and let out one very short, loud and particularly efficacious expletive. Unfortunately seconds later he had to emerge from the sacristy and attempt to process with all due solemnity up the aisle while the congregation fell about with very poorly suppressed laughter :)
 
#60
With thanks to Sillydol for posting this elsewhere.

It looks as if a benefactor from Murcia will save the day :

MUCHISIMAS GRACIAS Leonardo Nortes!!

Doctor Leonardo Nortes, a pediatric urologist from Murcia with Galician origins, was "very upset" this Sunday when he learned that the Cathedral of Santiago was without the Botafumeiro function on Friday afternoon.
"I was disappointed when I found out. I am in love with Santiago, to the point that my wife and I spend our first night of the honeymoon in the Hostal de los Reyes Católicos, " He married in Portomarín and every time he comes to his wife's house he tries to visit Santiago and enjoy the exclusive censer.
"I am willing to pay the function of every Friday of the year with the benefits of my company in Galicia," he says. And, in addition to his profession as a doctor, Dr. Nortes is also president of the company Sistemas de Prevención Vial S.L. This is a project that started a few years ago when "a friend of mine lost his life on the Alicante motorway while trying to put the triangles on the road. It was wound up by another tourism."

http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...licia/idEdicion-2017-01-11/idNoticia-1035843/
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances x5, Portuguese VdlP12, Sanabres, Aragones, Norte,Salvador,Primitivo, VdlP 17,Madrid18
#61
Thanks so much for confirming that, @Tia Valeria - that was my first time in Santiago, definitely 2009 - May 31. I have slightly more grasp on my memory than I thought! ;)
Yes,I was there also and on my first camino in 2007 I'm sure it was swung earlier in the mass but can't swear to that.
 

M&A

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Portuguese Oct. 2015
#63
When will the botafumeiro swing? Is one of the most asked questions by pilgrims in Santiago. The last few years, pilgrims have been assured that the friday afternoon mass (19.30/7.30pm) it will swing for sure. The reason for this is that the association of hotels and restaurants in Santiago has paid the Cathedral for this. Until now. It seems that they are not able to afford this, and the Cathedral is not swinging unless they get paid.

So, if there is no change to this... we are back to "no one really knows" when the botafumeiro will swing. It will most likely swing many times per week during the busy season, but nothing is scheduled and publicized.

http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...ernes/idEdicion-2017-01-08/idNoticia-1035326/

http://www.catedraldesantiago.es/en/node/482

:mad:
Ivar
 

M&A

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Portuguese Oct. 2015
#64
The swinging of the botafumeiro at the Friday mass at 19.30 is the highlight of the Camino for many pilgrims. It is a great pity to discontinue this. As this mass has the largest attendance I'm sure if pilgrims wanted to contribute a small amount each, this would easily cover the cost of swinging the butafumeiro and facilitate this great tradition to continue.
 

Mark McCarthy

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF 2014 2015
Lourdes 2 SdC 2016
Sarria 2 SdC April&Oct 2016 & (April 2018)
Camino Baztan June 2017
#65
The latest quote for swinging the Botafumeiro is €450. The Friday night swinging was €12000 for 51 weeks of the year worked out at €235 per swinging. It does seem somewhat expensive even at €235 per swinging.
 

Ernesto.IT

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018
#66
When will the botafumeiro swing? Is one of the most asked questions by pilgrims in Santiago. The last few years, pilgrims have been assured that the friday afternoon mass (19.30/7.30pm) it will swing for sure. The reason for this is that the association of hotels and restaurants in Santiago has paid the Cathedral for this. Until now. It seems that they are not able to afford this, and the Cathedral is not swinging unless they get paid.

So, if there is no change to this... we are back to "no one really knows" when the botafumeiro will swing. It will most likely swing many times per week during the busy season, but nothing is scheduled and publicized.

http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...ernes/idEdicion-2017-01-08/idNoticia-1035326/

http://www.catedraldesantiago.es/en/node/482

:mad:
Then we got to make sure to have a good shower before we go to that particular mass!!!!!
Ivar.
 
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Felipe

Veteran Member
#67
The botafumeiro is not only a ritual practice and a tourist attractive. It is also a sign of proud and regional identity for Gallego people.
A popular cafe near my home was called (it closed, sadly) "The Botafumeiro" and sported a really big picture of the "tiraboleiros". I used to go to enjoy a capuccino and my piece of "torta de Santiago", and talk about Galicia with the owner.
 
Camino(s) past & future
(May 2017)
#68
I'm sorry Jennifer, but if you cannot see that the Catholic liturgy is designed and conducted as stage performance, you have blinkers on. Without denigrating the religious experience in any way, the mass is educational story-telling performance at its very best. It is undertaken by well rehearsed individuals, often in wonderfully elaborate and intricate costumes and performed on stages ranging from the plain to extraordinarily elaborate. The mass is broadly themed, but with an episodic nature as the church celebrates the cycle of religious seasons and its saints. And while the religious climax of a mass in the cathedral at Santiago might not be the swinging of the botafumeiro, it is certainly a dramatic culmination that leaves the congregation in awe.
Yes, the liturgy of the mass is a theatrical construct in three acts, as any theater major can attest. And one of the great things about the liturgy is the ability to follow it, regardless of the language, because the ordinary is consistent in every church. Only the propers change (and if you've been attending mass for 20-plus years, you can follow the propers in another language by knowing a few key words to clue you in to the Liturgy of the Word). But the dramatic culmination is the transubstantiation, which is constant in the simplest of daily masses to the grandest cathedral pageant. As a first time pilgrim, I want to see the botafumerio, had made my plans to get there for the Friday evening mass, and will be disappointed if I don't see it. But if it doesn't work out, that will be part of my Camino. The transubstantiation will still happen, and Christ will be present.
 
Camino(s) past & future
April 2017 or Sept 2017
#69
But it doesn't catch you by surprise, its planned and the majority of the people at the mass I attended were there, imho, not for the mass but for the "show" and that is the word I will use. People were pushing and shoving, they were being horridly disrespectful of the poor ushers who were trying to keep order, there were elderly towns people being pushed to the outer most corners by the throngs of people. There were so many arms holding up cameras that you couldn't see a thing even if you wanted. It made me sad that this was what the event was. One lady refused to share an entire pew as she had spread herself across it with her legs and purse "saving it for friends" who arrived well after the mass had started. She was awful to an elderly lady who wished to sit .. I got up from the concrete block I was sitting on and offered my place which she gratefully accepted. It left a very poor taste in my mouth and I know that on this next camino I have no desire to see such the show again.
I noticed the same thing when I was there. People saving whole pews and then what looked like elderly citizens trying to find places in their own church. I was ashamed to be an American and seeing other Americans acting so unAnerican. The worse part was the tour groups being led by the person with a flag thru the cathedral while the Mass was happening. Very rude
 

MTtoCamino

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Francis SJPdP to Finnestere April(2014)
#70
When will the botafumeiro swing? Is one of the most asked questions by pilgrims in Santiago. The last few years, pilgrims have been assured that the friday afternoon mass (19.30/7.30pm) it will swing for sure. The reason for this is that the association of hotels and restaurants in Santiago has paid the Cathedral for this. Until now. It seems that they are not able to afford this, and the Cathedral is not swinging unless they get paid.

So, if there is no change to this... we are back to "no one really knows" when the botafumeiro will swing. It will most likely swing many times per week during the busy season, but nothing is scheduled and publicized.

http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...ernes/idEdicion-2017-01-08/idNoticia-1035326/

http://www.catedraldesantiago.es/en/node/482

:mad:
Ivar
Ivar
I am very surprised that the church & community has not found a better way to collect on this. Since you live & work in Santiago & have a very good oversight of the entire process, how hard would it be to figure out the yearly cost & simply pass that cost to those purchasing a "Credential del Peregringo" as most who walk for religious, spiritual, or none of that will still visit the the Cathederal. In another post you show 267 thousand walked the Camino Francis. Or was that combined? I have not read it yet. In any case how difficult would that be to organize?
 
A

Anemone del Camino

Guest
#71
...
figure out the yearly cost & simply pass that cost to those purchasing a "Credential del Peregringo" as most who walk for religious, spiritual, or none of that will still visit the the Cathederal. In another post you show 267 thousand walked the Camino Francis.
The credencial is just another way to get revenue for the Cathedral, as are the botofumeiro swings? One could argue Friday evening's 7 centimos per 267k walkers asking for a Compostela is already included in the price of the Credencial. :rolleyes: And I don't think increasing the price of the Credencial would be seen with a kind eye as it could be argued that it would increase the financial burden on "real" pilgrims with trully limited finances to walk the Camino.

And after all, the Cathedral has secured the funds, now it can think of another way to involve the locals.

A lot of money is needed to keep this beautiful and meaningful building standing, there is no doubt. Swings outisde of services, for a 5-10€ fee, with limited number of attendees to ensure better camera shots. This would also decrease the number of "pretend church goers" making for better behaviour during the sacred ritual of mass?
 

MTtoCamino

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Francis SJPdP to Finnestere April(2014)
#72
The credencial is just another way to get revenue for the Cathedral, as are the botofumeiro swings? One could argue Friday evening's 7 centimos per 267k walkers asking for a Compostela is already included in the price of the Credencial. :rolleyes: And I don't think increasing the price of the Credencial would be seen with a kind eye as it could be argued that it would increase the financial burden on "real" pilgrims with trully limited finances to walk the Camino.

And after all, the Cathedral has secured the funds, now it can think of another way to involve the locals.

A lot of money is needed to keep this beautiful and meaningful building standing, there is no doubt. Swings outisde of services, for a 5-10€ fee, with limited number of attendees to ensure better camera shots. This would also decrease the number of "pretend church goers" making for better behaviour during the sacred ritual of mass?
I simply think that relying on outside business to pay for something that a specific population of humans arrive to see it would be more effective to have them share the burden more effectively. As far as pretend church goers is concerned who can judge that? The church has open doors for a reason. I do agree more respect is needed but unless we are willing to be the nun or priest walking around during mass with a wooden ruler disrespectful behavior will continue. :)
Keith
 
A

Anemone del Camino

Guest
#73
...
but unless we are willing to be the nun or priest walking around during mass with a wooden ruler disrespectful behavior will continue. :)
I would volunteer to walk around mass with a wooden rulwr, if I didn't have to become a nun, or a priest for that matter. ;)

Some volunteer in albergues, others to hand out Compostelas, and why not now at mass with a ruler? :D
 
Camino(s) past & future
2013, 2014, 2015 (2016)
#76
There may have been the final blessing still to go, but essentially it was over.
It usually goes just before the final blessing at the end of the mass. However, the first time I saw it was on All Saints Day, November 1, It "flew" before the mass began and after a lengthy procession of clergy and statue in and out of the cathedral. The nice thing about the before Mass arrangement was that approximately half the people immediately left after the "swing," leaving the place open for a traditional mass.
 

Flem

"The old man"
Camino(s) past & future
2015 Frances
2016 Finisterre-Muxia, Portogues
2017 del Norte, Ingles
(2018 Via de la Plata)
#77
When will the botafumeiro swing? Is one of the most asked questions by pilgrims in Santiago. The last few years, pilgrims have been assured that the friday afternoon mass (19.30/7.30pm) it will swing for sure. The reason for this is that the association of hotels and restaurants in Santiago has paid the Cathedral for this. Until now. It seems that they are not able to afford this, and the Cathedral is not swinging unless they get paid.

So, if there is no change to this... we are back to "no one really knows" when the botafumeiro will swing. It will most likely swing many times per week during the busy season, but nothing is scheduled and publicized.

http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...ernes/idEdicion-2017-01-08/idNoticia-1035326/

http://www.catedraldesantiago.es/en/node/482

:mad:
Ivar
Sad that money now is a issue there also.
But how about Pilgrimsmass friday 1200???
 

Ernesto.IT

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018
#78
My original reply to this news was that from now on for that particular mass and for that particular motive, peregrinos they have to make sure to have a good shower before hand as apparently the original reason for it, was to cover peregrinos smell, and it was not intended to be offensive as I'm one of them, and I do not understand why was deleted.
 

wayfarer

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
SJPP-Santiago-Finistera-Muxia. April/May 2012
Sarria-Santiago Sept. 2013
SJPP - Almost Orrison April 2014
#79
@Ernesto.IT, your post was not deleted, it is post #67 above. You did not use the reply procedure properly and your post is embedded in the "quoted" text. You can edit it if you want your post to be seen.
PS. I have edited it for you as it can be tricky to do.
 

Felipe

Veteran Member
#80
I don't want to start a discussion about the role of Catholic church in Spain, but it is worthwhile noting that there is a kind of institutional "crowdfunding" established by law to support its activities. That is, taxpayers can tick boxes in their declarations for the Catholic church and/or NGOs, so a 0,7% of their taxes is given to the beneficiaries. In rough terms, a third of taxpayers do that, and it amounts to around 159 millions euros yearly.
http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2015/08/04/55c09aeb22601dc7018b4576.html
So, Masses and rituals are, I suppose, a kind of "public service".
The Church allocates these resources as it finds convenient. I have heard that a similar arrangement exists in Germany, for all established churches. Or maybe is it only in Bavaria? I am not sure.
 
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Stivandrer

Perambulating & Curious
Camino(s) past & future
I´ve got Camino plans until 2042,
- or till I fall flat on my face, whichever comes first !!
#81
I don't want to start a discussion about the role of Catholic church in Spain, but it is worthwhile noting that there is a kind of institutional "crowdfunding" established by law to support its activities. That is, taxpayers can tick boxes in their declarations for the Catholic church and/or NGOs, so a 0,7% of their taxes is given to the beneficiaries. In rough terms, a third of taxpayers do that, and it amounts to around 159 millions euros yearly.
http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2015/08/04/55c09aeb22601dc7018b4576.html
So, Masses and rituals are, I suppose, a kind of "public service".
The Church allocates these resources as it finds convenient. I have heard that a similar arrangement exists in Germany, for all established churches. Or maybe is it only in Bavaria? I am not sure.
@Felipe, thank you for posting, I did not know that....
Still, if the pressure and the need for further funding persists, I would still be willing to let go of some euros to further a steady activity in this matter....
 
Camino(s) past & future
Walking Camino Frances in April 2016. T'was awesome. Plan to do more.
#82
In the 186 days from May to October last year the Botafumeiro was used 243 times! The cancellation of the Friday show is not a tragedy!
You are correct in calling it a "show". Just lucky God still chooses to bless the pilgrims anyway. Gaz.
 
#84
The Cathedral disagrees, and I do as well. ;)
It is amazing in the English language what a difference a few letters make...I meant to write the Friday night showing of the Botafumeiro. But the debate has been fun. And I'm not sure the Cathedral does disagree with the sentiments. As has been rehearsed elsewhere on this and other threads when the Botafumeiro is being used for liturgical purposes it is used at the beginning of the Mass. This is on high days and holy days. Some years ago the Cathedral decided to offer it for hire so that people could see it and also so they could earn some money. However they decided that in this case it would be shown at the very end of the Mass often after the Mass has ended - for the reason if it came earlier many people would leave after it and not stay for the rest of the Mass.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances, 2015
#85
However they decided that in this case it would be shown at the very end of the Mass often after the Mass has ended - for the reason if it came earlier many people would leave after it and not stay for the rest of the Mass.
During the Mass I was wondering when they would use the Botafumeiro and then I realized "Ah, they must be saving it for dessert."
 
Camino(s) past & future
CF: (2001, 2002, 2004, 2014). Hospitalera: 2002, Ponferrada. 2004, Rabanal del Camino.
#86
Another camino blessing on today two years out from last camino. I did not know about swinger on camino number one 2001, and was blessed to see it. Camino 2014, same thing.
 
Camino(s) past & future
May 2017
#87
I read the article about a doctor saying that he would pay for it but the cathedral website still says it's not happening. I guess the verdict is still out...
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances, 2015
#88
For those who want to see an unusual look at the swinging of the botafumeiro (not at a mass) go to this place on
youtube.com/watch?v=blK3IF51B0M#t=36m30s

Sorry but you have to do a cut-and-paste to circumvent a linking problem.
 

McFloozy

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
planning ahead for a 2017 walk.
#89
If you look at marly camino schedule, it always swings when their group comes to the pilgrim mass. That could be useful info if you're in Santiago on those days.
 

Older Guy

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Francis -May 2016 by bike---Loved it
#90
Thank you that is most helpful. I looked up their website and it does include the following in their pricey tours.


Guided Caminos Include:
  • ✓Private Van Support & Luggage transfer
  • ✓Carefully selected en suite accommodation
  • ✓All breakfasts, drinks and snacks
  • ✓English-speaking guide assistance
  • ✓Mobile phones with a Spanish line
  • ✓Informational program and route map
  • ✓Pilgrim's kit
  • ✓GUARANTEED BOTAFUMEIRO ritual (censer swing) at the Pilgrim's mass in the Cathedral (Does not apply for the Camino Lebaniego)
  • ✓Photos of your Camino
  • ✓Travel insurance for the entire tour
  • ✓Value Added Tax (VAT)
  • ✓Farewell dinner and surprise
 
Camino(s) past & future
English (Summer 2016)
Portuguese (Fall 2017)
#91
Thank you for this post because I so badly wanted to join in one of those smaller chapel masses. I was alone, and just finished my English Way Pilgrimage last summer, when I saw the chapels full, I thought they were full of people on tours and I couldn't just walk in and sit down. I was so hungry for a Mass in English. It was not until I left the Cathedral that someone told me that they hold Mass in various languages for anyone who wants to attend. But I was so out of sync after my walk that I guess I didn't pay attention to the signs that say "English Mass 11:30" which would have made me realize it was open. I will definitely attend when I am there this Fall!
 

talia

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
camino fr 2017
via dlpt 2018
#92
dose any one found the clear answer for that ? i start walking the portuges way on monday and i will b happy to arrive santiago for the mass when they r swinging the botafumiero.
iff any one has a new information it will help.
tankx tali
 

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