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No more changing of clocks in EU - perhaps for the last time in 2021

Kathar1na

Member
Year of past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
Update on 26 October 2019:

Time to update this message. We are changing our clocks again in the EU during this coming night from 26 October to 27 October. Nobody knows if this will ever end because nobody can make up their minds about what we want and what's the most convenient, the most sensible and the most practical, apparently.

Background info: Upon popular request, the European Commission had proposed that we stop changing from summertime (aka daylight saving time) to wintertime and back again, and that every EU country adopts the timezone they like best and stick to it. Current planning says that 31 October 2021 is the earliest date for a possibly last changing of the clocks in the EU.

I have no idea what Spain is planning to do. Anyone?
 
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dfunghi

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Future (2019) Portuguese.
I will be (if all goes according to plan) walking when the Spring Fwd happens in 2019. I figure I would be walking based on daylight conditions more so than clock conditions anyway. But.... if I keep finding myself looking for a meal or checking in to accommodations during siesta or too late for a bed I may have to use the clock and not the sun. I have been in Europe in the Fall and experienced that loss of an hour and it did create some havoc on closures of shops / banks.

FWIW here in USoA not all 50 states take part in the exercise. Arizona and Hawaii abstain. Seems life goes on just fine in those two states.
 
Year of past OR future Camino
2012
It will be a shame if it does all change, to ECT or whatever. I quite like that the same flight, to Madrid, can take three and a half hours one way and one and a half the other. My brain enjoys trying to correlate bus & train timetables to UK flight times that switch to Spanish landing times. I have noticed that however 'long' the flight is those skinflints at BA still only issue one measly gin & tonic for the entire flight....
 

jsalt

Jill
Year of past OR future Camino
Portugués, Francés, LePuy, Rota Vicentina, Norte, Madrid, C2C, Salvador, Primitivo, Aragonés, Inglés
One winter in the UK, when I was growing up, we walked to school in the dark – an experiment by the UK government to do away with “daylight saving”. If my memory serves me correctly, the idea was abandoned because there were too many traffic accidents. Next winter we were back to “normal”.
Jill
 
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AZgirl

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Frances 2012 , via de la Plata 2014
Madrid/frances Sept/Oct 2017
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I will be (if all goes according to plan) walking when the Spring Fwd happens in 2019. I figure I would be walking based on daylight conditions more so than clock conditions anyway. But.... if I keep finding myself looking for a meal or checking in to accommodations during siesta or too late for a bed I may have to use the clock and not the sun. I have been in Europe in the Fall and experienced that loss of an hour and it did create some havoc on closures of shops / banks.

FWIW here in USoA not all 50 states take part in the exercise. Arizona and Hawaii abstain. Seems life goes on just fine in those two states.
I live in AZ and it's mostly fine. Except I live super close to the new Mexico state line and our community is on both sides., so half the year it's e.g. " party starts at 7 AZ time, " it's easy for confusion. And the sun comes up super early in the summer,official sunrise can be as early as 520 am, but you can see way before that.
 

lissie45

Active Member
Year of past OR future Camino
Planning to walk CF 2020 - once my partner recovers from cardiac surgery
Isn't Spain in the wrong timezone anyways - all year around. I just checked on time and date - and even mid summer dawn is not until nearly 7am and its not dark to 10pm a glance at a map suggests it should be on GMT not GMT+1 Is that what the referendum is about - or just daylight saving
 

jungleboy

Spirit of the Camino (Nick)
Year of past OR future Camino
Francés 2017
Primitivo 2018
Madrid 2019
Kumano Kodo 2019
Português 2020
Isn't Spain in the wrong timezone anyways - all year around.

Yes, Spain is in the 'wrong' timezone. Santiago de Compostela, for example, is further west than most of Portugal but is one hour 'east' (i.e. ahead) of Portugal in time. Similarly, Madrid is further west than London but one hour 'east' in time. But it suits the Spanish culture and way of life for it to be that way - that is, wake up late and stay up late.
 

lissie45

Active Member
Year of past OR future Camino
Planning to walk CF 2020 - once my partner recovers from cardiac surgery
When in Spain, I can easily adapt to having dinner at 8:30 at the earliest (albergues catering for pilgrims but mainly for other travellers) or at 9 or even later (restaurants) etc. What feels strange to me, is the late sunrise, for example the sun rises currently around 7:30 along the Camino Frances (middle part). I don't like getting up before sunrise and won't walk in the dark as a rule ... no criticism, just how it feels to me.

So do people walk in the dark? I thought from the chat here people get up very early if it’s not light until 730?
 
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LTfit

Veteran Member
Yes, Spain is in the 'wrong' timezone. Santiago de Compostela, for example, is further west than most of Portugal but is one hour 'east' (i.e. ahead) of Portugal in time. Similarly, Madrid is further west than London but one hour 'east' in time. But it suits the Spanish culture and way of life for it to be that way - that is, wake up late and stay up late.

Or the Spanish learned to adapt when the time zone was changed by Franco in 1940 from Greenwich Mean Time to Central European Time in a show of allegiance to Hitler's Germany. Some believe that this time zone shift is responsible for Spain's unusual daily schedule.

There has been much discussion about changing the time zone back to GMT which would bring mainland Spain into the same time zone as Spain's Canary Islands and Portugal but no reforms have yet been made.
 

tpmchugh

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
2018
Isn't Spain in the wrong timezone anyways - all year around. I just checked on time and date - and even mid summer dawn is not until nearly 7am and its not dark to 10pm a glance at a map suggests it should be on GMT not GMT+1 Is that what the referendum is about - or just daylight saving
Dont know if this is true but I recall reading somewhere that Franco changed it so that Spain was on the same time as Berlin. Some Spaniards referred to it as 'Hitler Time'. I could be wrong but there is a vague memory about this
 

Marbe2

Active member
Year of past OR future Camino
2015-2019 walked all or more than half of CF 7 times... CP recently cancelled by Covid 19!
I think the answer should be left to the Spanish people. We adjust!
 

Marbe2

Active member
Year of past OR future Camino
2015-2019 walked all or more than half of CF 7 times... CP recently cancelled by Covid 19!
Just to clarify again: The consultation and survey that is the initial topic of the thread was addressed to all 500 million EU citizens since it concerns all of them - and I'm one of them :). See EU gets record response on 'summertime' consultation .

Sorry:)but you posted this question on an international website?!
Yes, I did see your post....but I still think it should be left up to the local people of Spain and various member countries to determine whether they EACH want it. In the states each state decides. What I wonder is whether Spain should continue to be on Central European time and might it be better off in GMT? Good luck with your survey.
 

SabineP

Camino = Gratitude + Compassion.
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some and then more. see my signature.
It's not my survey. I posted after I read a last minute call for participation in our newspapers and felt it was relevant here.

Or, I felt it was at least as relevant as these forum posts about sales at REI and Aldi somewhere on this globe. :cool:

I answered the survey a while ago...We will see if it will make any difference... :cool:
 
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LTfit

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long trails

Active Member
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Frances 2012
Seriously this should not even be up for debate. Madrid is further west than London yet it's one hour ahead. Ridiculous that in mid summer it's still light at 11pm at this latitiude!

Franco changed the clocks to align with Berlin. About time Spain woke up (a little earlier) and change the clock back to be on UTC.
 
Year of past OR future Camino
cycled from Pamplona Sep 2015;Frances, walked from St Jean May/June 2017. Plans to walk Porto 2020
Yes, Spain but also France, Belgium, Luxemburg and The Netherlands are in the wrong timezone, they should be in WET (Western European Time) but they are in CET (Central European Time). ...

Apparently, a number of EU states have officially asked for a review, among them Finland and Lithuania - so at the opposite end to Spain. When I grew up, the clocks were never changed and I've resented the procedure ever since. :cool:

Around here, we have daylight saving time since 1980 or so.

Hola @Kathar1na . From my dim distant history of time I was given to understand that "local time" in France is based on the Meridian of Longitude that runs through Paris. A sort of French Mean Time (opposing Greenwich). How the rest of Europe followed I don't know. As for "eastern Europe" if its good enough for Greece to be one hour ahead Finland & Lithuania could "move" also.
Spanish "local sun time"I have experienced - leaving Rabanal at 8.25 with the sun still not up; or getting on the 9.25 train from Santiago to Madrid and watching the sun rise. As I said elsewhere "those crazy Spaniards".
 
Year of past OR future Camino
cycled from Pamplona Sep 2015;Frances, walked from St Jean May/June 2017. Plans to walk Porto 2020
I don’t quite understand this remark. The clocks in Greece, Finland and Lithuania show the same time all year round, in summer as in winter. This is about the change to and from summertime (elsewhere known as daylight saving time) which takes place in March and October in every EU country and to which many people object, at least from Helsinki to Berlin and Brussels - don’t really know about the people in Paris and Madrid.
.

I beg to differ - I was in Greece in Oct 2009 and on the last Sunday in Oct the clocks went from Summer Time back to Standard time. I know because my transport to the ferry was an hour early, the driver had not reset his clocks, so we had and extra hour wait to board the ferry back to Athens. Cheers
 
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notion900

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>
Daylight saving time is meant to better deploy the shorter hours of daylight in the winter for the working hours. Therefore it matters more the further north you go in Europe, and not so much in southern Europe.
 
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Frances(2006) Portugues(2013)
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Katharina, My experience of reading your excellent contributions in the forum leads me to expect you to be sound, informed, and correct. I am sorry for your present discomfiture. Whichever way it falls, I hope you sleep well when the hour changes/ should have changed soon!
 

Telboyo

Active Member
Year of past OR future Camino
I intend to leave the UK the day Before Brexit and walkMarch -April 2019 Camino Frances
One winter in the UK, when I was growing up, we walked to school in the dark – an experiment by the UK government to do away with “daylight saving”. If my memory serves me correctly, the idea was abandoned because there were too many traffic accidents. Next winter we were back to “normal”.
Jill
That was back in the seventies when the majority of the people worked 9 to 5, today people works all hours of the day. Even as a kid I could.not understand why moving the clock by an hour would change the length of the day.
I tend to wake with the sun so the clocks don't matter that much to me.
 
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biarritzdon

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I love the debate about body clock versus the state imposed clock. Spain has done a great job adjusting since the advent of Franco time. Coffee is gerenally served well past 9h and the main meal of the day is a colossal feast around 14h. What's wrong with that?
 

Kathar1na

Member
Year of past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
I have no idea what Spain is planning to do. Anyone?
From El Pais of yesterday: Speaking on Friday at a press conference, Spain’s Education Minister Isabel Celaá said that “no changes” would be made to the current system. According to Celaá, [an] expert commission, tasked with reviewing a time zone change, was unable to reach any “conclusive resolution” due to the “large impact” the measure would have on cultural and economic sectors.

As things stand at the moment at EU level, the Spanish government must come to a decision between now and next year and say in which time zone they want to stay permanently (without changing clocks twice a year from then onwards), and then no-one can blame it on Franco and Berlin anymore. 😉
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Year of past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
Six months later and nothing has changed yet.

According to this article in the Spanish press:

Spain must decide before the beginning of April 2020 whether it prefers to remain in winter time or summer time from the year 2021 onwards, when the European Commission intends to end the changing of the clocks [that takes place every six months], following the wish expressed by 80% of citizens in a survey conducted in 2018 [= 80% of those who took part in a consultation open to every EU citizen and every organisation in the EU].

In view of this result, the European Commission proposed to put an end to this practice and proposed that the last clock change should take place in March 2019. However, a lack of consensus between the EU countries and a lack of impact assessments caused the EU to delay the possible end of the clock change until 2021. Every country can adopt their own fixed time system from 2021 onwards.
A dilemma arises in Spain: while the majority of the population - 65% according to a survey carried out by the Centro de Investigaciones Sociológicas (CIS) last November - prefers summer time, many technical assessments conclude that the most rational thing would be for Spain to keep winter time all year round.

I'm taking bets what will happen first: The end of the seasonal clock change in the EU, as it's properly called, or Brexit.
 

henrythedog

Loved and fed by David
Year of past OR future Camino
Frances 2017, 2018, 2019, Ingles 2018, (Madrid 2019 partial - retired hurt!) (more planned)
Six months later and nothing has changed yet.

According to this article in the Spanish press:

Spain must decide before the beginning of April 2020 whether it prefers to remain in winter time or summer time from the year 2021 onwards, when the European Commission intends to end the changing of the clocks [that takes place every six months], following the wish expressed by 80% of citizens in a survey conducted in 2018 [= 80% of those who took part in a consultation open to every EU citizen and every organisation in the EU].

In view of this result, the European Commission proposed to put an end to this practice and proposed that the last clock change should take place in March 2019. However, a lack of consensus between the EU countries and a lack of impact assessments caused the EU to delay the possible end of the clock change until 2021. Every country can adopt their own fixed time system from 2021 onwards.
A dilemma arises in Spain: while the majority of the population - 65% according to a survey carried out by the Centro de Investigaciones Sociológicas (CIS) last November - prefers summer time, many technical assessments conclude that the most rational thing would be for Spain to keep winter time all year round.

I'm taking bets what will happen first: The end of the seasonal clock change in the EU, as it's properly called, or Brexit.
Well, I’m a Brit and one of the 48% so doing my best to find the current situation surreal. I have, however, just applied for and received my replacement E111 European reciprocal health services card. It has a five-year life. I live in hope that it will remain valid for that time and that the daylight saving debate will carry on likewise.

It does seem to make sense that midday is when the sun is overhead. As I’m retired I can get up and go to bed pretty much when I like - I do appreciate that it’s not so simple for everyone.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
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A dilemma arises in Spain: while the majority of the population - 65% according to a survey carried out by the Centro de Investigaciones Sociológicas (CIS) last November - prefers summer time, many technical assessments conclude that the most rational thing would be for Spain to keep winter time all year round.

More rational certainly -- given that Spain's original time zone was one hour earlier than even that !! (same as Portugal's current time zone)

The French population has voted for the same mistake, probably not realising that it would mean winter sunrises as late as 9:42 AM, and so actual daylight not starting til 10:30 or something.

If Spain kept that same time zone, sunrise in Santiago would sometimes be as late as 10 AM, actual daylight starting even later than that.

I'm taking bets what will happen first: The end of the seasonal clock change in the EU, as it's properly called, or Brexit.

heh

As for the UK, if it leaves the EU first, it won't be bound by these rules changes, and apparently it will keep on with the clock changes.

They really are turning something that should have been dead simple -- abolish the summer daylight savings clock changes -- into a complete mess.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Year of past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
The French population has voted for the same mistake, probably not realising that it would mean winter sunrises as late as 9:42 AM, and so actual daylight not starting til 10:30 or something.
At first, I didn't understand what you are saying but in the meantime I'v learnt that there was a public online consultation in France this year where 2 million French citizens participated: more than 80% want to see an end to the constant changing of the clocks and among these, nearly 60% prefer to keep summertime (what's known as daylight saving time elsewhere).

Ah, the will of the people ... I wouldn't dare to assume that people were not well informed beforehand, didn't think it through and didn't know what they voted for. 🤭
 

mmmmartin

Active Member
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As for the UK, if it leaves the EU first, it won't be bound by these rules changes, and apparently it will keep on with the clock changes.
That word "if" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence.
And these are advisory: the EU wouldn't interfere in national sovereignty. (In spite of what we're told.......)
 

markgrubb

Member
Year of past OR future Camino
Camino Frances 2016
Camino Del Norte 2017
Camino Mozarabe (Almeria) 2019
Camino Portuguese 2019
One winter in the UK, when I was growing up, we walked to school in the dark – an experiment by the UK government to do away with “daylight saving”. If my memory serves me correctly, the idea was abandoned because there were too many traffic accidents. Next winter we were back to “normal”.
Jill
The conclusion was exactly the opposite. Fewer accidents so there is a strong argument for moving the uk clocks forward an hour summer and winter
 
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mmmmartin

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Agreed, I think there were fewer accidents because it was darker in the mornings when people weren't as tired (so there were fewer accidents) as they are in the afternoon (more tired so more accidents) . The problem was that those injured in accidents were identifiable while the greater number of those not injured were, of course, not identifiable. Changing the clocks is a silly idea.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Year of past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
Update on 26 October 2019: Background info: Upon popular request, the European Commission had proposed that we stop changing from summertime (aka daylight saving time) to wintertime and back again, and that every EU country adopts the timezone they like best and stick to it. Current planning says that 31 October 2021 is the earliest date for a possibly last changing of the clocks in the EU.

Update on 28 March 2021:

Originally, when the proposal was first made, it was intended that March 2021 would bring the last mandatory time change for us. It wasn't meant to be. It was too optimistic. We changed the clock this spring weekend of 2021, we are going to change them again at the end of October later this year and we will perhaps still doing so for many years to come. Too many different opinions among the 27 EU governments, they cannot find common ground, no matter what kind of system they could adopt, and it's not a priority for them.

Here's the view from Ireland for a change (the article was the first one to turn up in Google News): Clock stops on EU plan to scrap daylight savings time - Contentious move to abolish mandatory seasonal clock changes ‘not top priority now’. Daylight hours / organising one's day during daylight hours is a topic in particular in connection with Galicia, due to its location in the far west of mainland Spain.
 

Marbe2

Active member
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2015-2019 walked all or more than half of CF 7 times... CP recently cancelled by Covid 19!
Well it certainly would have made it less confusing for travelers from other continents....
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
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We changed the clock this spring weekend of 2021, we are going to change them again at the end of October later this year
I've read elsewhere that whilst this is officially the case, there is still a chance that the EU may decide that this was indeed the final time.

Also that the implementation of the decision has delayed, but not reversed.
 
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Oh well, roll on the double daylight saving debate.
You do have to be of a certain age to remember this!
Seemingly, statistically proven to save the lives of Scottish schoolchildren who walked to school. In the modern era, of course, they are transported to school in Chelsea tractors with more lights than a prison exercise yard.
The farmers as has been stated base their lives around the sunrise anyway, the rest of us have electric lighting powered by the wind 😁 or so the adverts would have us believe.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Year of past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
US changes twice a year as well. Periodically the same discussion is made.
There was a public (online as well as offline) consultation about this. 4,6 million people from the EU countries gave their opinion on seasonal clock changes and 84% of them were in favour of abolishing these bi-annual clock changes.

Although I participated (I'm one of the 84%), I can't remember a thing. I don't know whether it was enough to say yes or no or give a more nuanced opinion. And I don't care. I'm against it full-stop. It was introduced during my life-time and I want to see it abolished during my life-time. 😄

4 or 5 million participants out of a total of 450 million (total EU population) isn't a lot but this participation rate was huge. Never seen before interest by the public. It topped the previous records: half a million had participated in the public's consultation on Birds and Habitat (protection of the environment) legislation and a mere 300,000 on the modernisation of the Common Agriculture Policy.
 
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Year of past OR future Camino
CF : stages 2008, 2017, 2018 ; completed.
Oh well, roll on the double daylight saving debate.
You do have to be of a certain age to remember this!
Seemingly, statistically proven to save the lives of Scottish schoolchildren who walked to school. In the modern era, of course, they are transported to school in Chelsea tractors with more lights than a prison exercise yard.
The farmers as has been stated base their lives around the sunrise anyway, the rest of us have electric lighting powered by the wind 😁 or so the adverts would have us believe.

You would need to be older than you suspect to remember "double daylight saving time"...

British Double Summer Time was essentially from 1941 - 45 (plus summer of 1947) with GMT+2 hours in summer and GMT+1 hour in winter.

British Standard Time is the experiment which many of us recall ; GMT+1 all year round between March 1968 and October 1971.

The road accident statistics showed an increase of fatalities/serious injuries in the mornings but a much greater reduction in the evenings i.e. a net benefit. As far as I am aware, this result applied to the whole of the UK. Some doubt has been cast on the part played by the time difference in reduction of casualties as stricter drink/drive legislation ( the "breathalyser") was introduced at about the same time.

Edited for clarity at 2339 (BST!) on 30 March 2021.
 
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