Search 62305 Camino Questions

A donation to the forum removes ads for you, and supports Ivar in his work running it


Advertisement

'Nobody owes you anything' Really?

Time of past OR future Camino
.
It’s neither simple nor a truth.

People owe us – and we in return owe them – behaviour that is free from such negatives as intimidation, denigration and discrimination. And ideally should include a willingness to respect each other and a commitment not to rush to judge or stereotype others. Plus much more besides that sits in a grey fringe area outside of prosecutable law.

Some here have described the ideal pilgrim role as a self-effacing, zen-like, neutral vessel that accepts and receives all that Camino sees fit to place upon it. This is not unlike suggesting the person is incarcerated in the penal system where they have and deserve no rights or voice, and must submit completely to whatever - just or unjust – impositions are made upon them. Hmmm.

We all owe many things to each other. What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
How to Successfully Prepare for Your Camino
This book's focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared.
Camino Way Markers
Original Camino Way markers made in bronze. Two models, one from Castilla & Leon and the other from Galicia.

Don Camillo

Active Member
Time of past OR future Camino
Frances 04-16
Norte/Primitivo 09-16
VdlP/ Sanabres 02/3-17
Levante 09/17,
Ruta de la Lana 09/18
Interesting although I missed the original post. My Camino's have always been solitary. I am spiritual in some respects but not religious in any formal sense. In earlier years the concept of right thought right action appealed. Actions not done for reward or praise or because you want to get something back but simply because they were the "right thing" to do. Easy to write but harder to live up to.
I endeavoured to follow the Way adhering to this approach. Sure there was an element of "tourism" in there (how can there not be ) but also an open willingness to take in the experience at its face value.
Maybe now I have learnt as much as I could from walking Camino.Maybe now it is the time to put those lessons to good effect. I always thought that walking a Camino, any Camino, gave back one of two things or both. You either realised that you were always the person you thought you were or you moved on from that and "developed" in whatever way from the experience.
A credit card and money in the bank certainly facilitate travel and thus experience. You are correct that the Camino should not be reduced to a transaction. But whilst money does not buy happiness it can certainly solve a lot of problems. Given that as a base layer you make of life, of Camino, what you will.
Don.
 

Turga

Camino tortuga
Time of past OR future Camino
Pondering 2023
But whilst money does not buy happiness it can certainly solve a lot of problems.

In an interview many years ago, the British actor Joan Collins, in response to a question from a journalist about whether money could buy happiness, responded: “Young man, if you believe money can’t buy just anything, you are shopping in the wrong places” ;)
 

Jagdev D.

Active Member
Time of past OR future Camino
April 2022
It’s neither simple nor a truth.

People owe us – and we in return owe them – behaviour that is free from such negatives as intimidation, denigration and discrimination. And ideally should include a willingness to respect each other and a commitment not to rush to judge or stereotype others. Plus much more besides that sits in a grey fringe area outside of prosecutable law.

Some here have described the ideal pilgrim role as a self-effacing, zen-like, neutral vessel that accepts and receives all that Camino sees fit to place upon it. This is not unlike suggesting the person is incarcerated in the penal system where they have and deserve no rights or voice, and must submit completely to whatever - just or unjust – impositions are made upon them. Hmmm.

We all owe many things to each other. What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.
Peregrino_tom
Well said, Sir,
self respect and respect for others Any where , every day , specially a notch up on the Camino.
My two cents !
Cheers to all .
 

Joe Walsh

Member
Time of past OR future Camino
Frances, Aragonés, VDLP, Madrid, Portugues, Norte
That discussion could be helpful to people who will experience this kind of common occurrence.

Not having needs met to expectations is an invitation to grow in resourcefulness. Walking a little further in that town one can find a tienda and other bars.

Those of us who are non-natives in Spain have a lot to learn about being “alien”. It becomes easier to extend consideration to non-natives in our own lands, after suffering disregard in foreign lands ourselves.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Original artwork based on your pilgrimage or other travel photos.
Create your own ad
€2,-/day will present your project to thousands of visitors each day. All interested in the Camino de Santiago.
Time of past OR future Camino
Yearly and Various 2014-2019
Via Monastica 2022
I suspect we actually agree on a lot, @peregrino_tom. And...
People owe us – and we in return owe them – behaviour that is free from such negatives as intimidation, denigration and discrimination.
We all owe many things to each other.
That would be more than nice, but I don't think it's realistic.

In a civilized society we all collectively agree to certain things, but they are not inalienable rights.
Just because we are alive human beings doesn't entitle us to be treated nicely. 'Common courtesy' is a precious thing in society, precisely because it's not a given. Kindness needs to be continually cultivated and encouraged, because there will always be people who denigrate, discriminate, or intimidate - or worse.

People can be unkind and that's just the way it is sometimes. To imagine kindness to be a human right - rather than a gift - sets us up to feel like a victim when the inevitable bad things happen. We get outraged, thinking, "How dare they!" - and the resultant anger poisons us. But understanding that kindness is not a given makes unkindness much easier to bear - not only do we not take it personally but there's inner space that allows both balanced action and moving on.

Some here have described the ideal pilgrim role as a self-effacing, zen-like, neutral vessel that accepts and receives all that Camino sees fit to place upon it.
Which of course is not true - you're right, Tom. It's silly.
But a the 'Zen-like' part? That's a common misunderstanding that makes me chuckle, because Zen masters can be the absolute antithesis of passive vessels. They are equanimous, but that's a totally different thing.

Equanimity in the face of the worst of human behaviour is what gives the clarity to act wisely rather than blindly react. It's what gives the space to be compassionate, too. To ourselves and the other person. And then speak and act - forcefully, if necessary - from a place of balance.

What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.
Absolutely agree! Very well said.
 

Joe Walsh

Member
Time of past OR future Camino
Frances, Aragonés, VDLP, Madrid, Portugues, Norte
Not one of Rosseau's. It is from a poem by John Donne.
Donne is so cool. Good clarification, thanks! Hemingway also took a Donne line for a book title, and left out the response line that puts it into perspective.
 

dick bird

Moderator
Staff member
Time of past OR future Camino
Plata, Ingles, Madrid, Norte, Primitivo, Invierno, Aragones, Olvidado, Chemin D'Arles
The whole concept has been tested to death (literally) with COVID. Some societies would accept a duty to others. Other societies were polar opposites.

Many times a view is conditional.

Personally I echo Rosseau - no man is an island.
Actually John Donne from "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions and Seuerall Steps in my Sickness – Meditation XVII", a published series of sermons (not poems as the internet persists in claiming). And just to show precisely how pedantic one can be after a heavy night: Rousseau. Otherwise I agree 100%. Society consists of and depends on mutual obligations - how do penguins survive blizzards?
 
How to Successfully Prepare for Your Camino
This book's focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared.
Create your own ad
€2,-/day will present your project to thousands of visitors each day. All interested in the Camino de Santiago.
Time of past OR future Camino
2023
It’s neither simple nor a truth.

People owe us – and we in return owe them – behaviour that is free from such negatives as intimidation, denigration and discrimination. And ideally should include a willingness to respect each other and a commitment not to rush to judge or stereotype others. Plus much more besides that sits in a grey fringe area outside of prosecutable law.

Some here have described the ideal pilgrim role as a self-effacing, zen-like, neutral vessel that accepts and receives all that Camino sees fit to place upon it. This is not unlike suggesting the person is incarcerated in the penal system where they have and deserve no rights or voice, and must submit completely to whatever - just or unjust – impositions are made upon them. Hmmm.

We all owe many things to each other. What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.
This is one persons approach to life.
 

SantiagoCruzB

Member
Time of past OR future Camino
2023
In an interview many years ago, the British actor Joan Collins, in response to a question from a journalist about whether money could buy happiness, responded: “Young man, if you believe money can’t buy just anything, you are shopping in the wrong places” ;)
In a strictly materialistic sense, maybe. But Covid taught me: money can't buy health. 😊
 
Last edited:

dougfitz

Veteran Member
Time of past OR future Camino
Spain: Mar 2010, Apr 2014, May/Jun 2016. Norway/Sweden: 2012, 2018. Other: 2011, 2019. CP (tbc)
Actually John Donne from "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions and Seuerall Steps in my Sickness – Meditation XVII", a published series of sermons (not poems as the internet persists in claiming). And just to show precisely how pedantic one can be after a heavy night: Rousseau. Otherwise I agree 100%. Society consists of and depends on mutual obligations - how do penguins survive blizzards?
Thank you @dick bird, I am regularly better informed by your contributions.
 
Time of past OR future Camino
06,CF;13,CP;17,SSal;19,Ingles
Like the op of this thread, I too have pondered about replying. The locked thread he was too late to contribute to had a post by someone who in my experience always offers facts. She quoted other online sources giving evidence, opinions of users of the cafe, that the behaviour of the owner of the cafe was neither new nor isolated.
Now, to this thread: we each have a piece of the story stemming from our stance, but this kind of exchange is not really a satisfactory way to tease out points of view. Not without face to face opportunities for clarification. I have made my own mistakes along the way in this forum with reactions rather than responses, and regretted them when it was too late! I keep trying to remember not to hit send if I am incensed about something. 😁
By the way, I am not pointing a finger at anyone. Absolutely not. Just giving a point of view. You are free to react according to yours.
One of my 'influencers', before influencers were a thing, was Paolo Freire, in his approach to human justice. I lent my copy of his Pedagogy of the Oppressed to someone and never saw it again, but had read it and seen enough of it in use not to forget its essence.

ps: a piece of wisdom from my home culture: cast your bread upon the waters when the tide is coming in - i must have missed the tide the day I lent that book!
 
How to Successfully Prepare for Your Camino
This book's focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared.
2022 Camino Guides
The 2022 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.

lalaone

Member
Time of past OR future Camino
2007
Donne is so cool. Good clarification, thanks! Hemingway also took a Donne line for a book title, and left out the response line that puts it into perspective.

Hemingway's "For Whom the Bell Tolls"? You bring this full circle, as it is also the final thought from Donne's meditation which begins by stating, "No man is an island" :)

Perhaps Donne's words are mistaken for a standalone poem because they express just so much, in so few words, to guide important reflections such as these even today.

No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
 
Last edited:

Rebekah Scott

Camino Busybody
Time of past OR future Camino
Many, various, and continuing.
I think someone took something I wrote and ran off with it.
I believe we all owe one another the fundamental dignity due to every living creature. Other existential debts are negotiable, and answer to all kinds of social, economic, religious and cultural differences.

"The customer is always right" is a particularly American concept. It does not translate well in many other cultures, where the shopkeeper knows he is due some dignity, too. I frequently remind our long-suffering hospitaleros on the camino that peevish "pilgrims" cannot file legal "hojas de reclamacion" complaints against the albergue or against them, because we are not a business. We are not exchanging money for services. The hospitaleros do not owe them anything but basic civility, and if the traveler demands more, he is free to seek more satisfactory shelter elsewhere.

All other extrapolations on whatever I wrote are the opinions of the extrapolator, and not necessarily mine.
 

chinacat

Veteran Member
Like the op of this thread, I too have pondered about replying. The locked thread he was too late to contribute to had a post by someone who in my experience always offers facts. She quoted other online sources giving evidence, opinions of users of the cafe, that the behaviour of the owner of the cafe was neither new nor isolated.
Now, to this thread: we each have a piece of the story stemming from our stance, but this kind of exchange is not really a satisfactory way to tease out points of view. Not without face to face opportunities for clarification. I have made my own mistakes along the way in this forum with reactions rather than responses, and regretted them when it was too late! I keep trying to remember not to hit send if I am incensed about something. 😁
By the way, I am not pointing a finger at anyone. Absolutely not. Just giving a point of view. You are free to react according to yours.
One of my 'influencers', before influencers were a thing, was Paolo Freire, in his approach to human justice. I lent my copy of his Pedagogy of the Oppressed to someone and never saw it again, but had read it and seen enough of it in use not to forget its essence.

ps: a piece of wisdom from my home culture: cast your bread upon the waters when the tide is coming in - i must have missed the tide the day I lent that book!

Might this help?



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260297860_Paulo_Freire's_Pedagogy_of_the_Oppressed
 

Joe Walsh

Member
Time of past OR future Camino
Frances, Aragonés, VDLP, Madrid, Portugues, Norte
I think someone took something I wrote and ran off with it.
I believe we all owe one another the fundamental dignity due to every living creature. Other existential debts are negotiable, and answer to all kinds of social, economic, religious and cultural differences.

"The customer is always right" is a particularly American concept. It does not translate well in many other cultures, where the shopkeeper knows he is due some dignity, too. I frequently remind our long-suffering hospitaleros on the camino that peevish "pilgrims" cannot file legal "hojas de reclamacion" complaints against the albergue or against them, because we are not a business. We are not exchanging money for services. The hospitaleros do not owe them anything but basic civility, and if the traveler demands more, he is free to seek more satisfactory shelter elsewhere.

All other extrapolations on whatever I wrote are the opinions of the extrapolator, and not necessarily mine.
Hi Rebekah,
I thought your comments were clearly stated and highly relevant since I concur with your message and its directness.
Your perspective, because of what you do everyday, is very valuable to share with pilgrims and especially with new ones who can benefit from these kinds of reality checks that add some accuracy and balance to what transpires along the Way.
Thank you for sharing your expertise.
Joe
 
Create your own ad
€2,-/day will present your project to thousands of visitors each day. All interested in the Camino de Santiago.
2022 Camino Guides
The 2022 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.

Anamiri

Veteran Member
Time of past OR future Camino
2016, 2017, 2019 Camino Frances
It’s neither simple nor a truth.

People owe us – and we in return owe them – behaviour that is free from such negatives as intimidation, denigration and discrimination. And ideally should include a willingness to respect each other and a commitment not to rush to judge or stereotype others. Plus much more besides that sits in a grey fringe area outside of prosecutable law.

Some here have described the ideal pilgrim role as a self-effacing, zen-like, neutral vessel that accepts and receives all that Camino sees fit to place upon it. This is not unlike suggesting the person is incarcerated in the penal system where they have and deserve no rights or voice, and must submit completely to whatever - just or unjust – impositions are made upon them. Hmmm.

We all owe many things to each other. What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.
In an ideal world it would be nice to think that common decency prevails. And a lot of the time it does.
Most people who have worked in a corporate environment know that intimidation, denigration and discrimination (sexism, racism, religion) are well alive and kicking. And although things have improved a lot even in my lifetime, there is no denying that these all exist to this day. The pay gap itself is testament to that.

As a woman, and with a mix of cultures within our family, I see and hear more horrendous remarks than most. I am often shocked when people see my external physical appearance (I'm very short, extremely blond and fair) and make the most racist remarks. What some people say when they misjudge my appearance for some type of cultural alignment is hard to believe.

I have had people speak to me, and then look horrified when they see me with my family, and realise they have literally 'put their foot in it'.

So I dont expect the world to be perfect, but I do try to behave in a respectful and decent way to others.
I shrug off most poor behaviour, and choose not to let it ruin my day.

A wise person taught me when I was younger to pick my battles - you cant fight everything.
 
Last edited:

dougfitz

Veteran Member
Time of past OR future Camino
Spain: Mar 2010, Apr 2014, May/Jun 2016. Norway/Sweden: 2012, 2018. Other: 2011, 2019. CP (tbc)
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were;
I am much more familiar with this snippet reading '... as well as any manor of thy friends or thine own were'. It seems to take on a quite different meaning if the word 'manner' is used here. I am sure this must have generated much discussion over which might the more correct word to use in modern English.
 

dick bird

Moderator
Staff member
Time of past OR future Camino
Plata, Ingles, Madrid, Norte, Primitivo, Invierno, Aragones, Olvidado, Chemin D'Arles
I am much more familiar with this snippet reading '... as well as any manor of thy friends or thine own were'. It seems to take on a quite different meaning if the word 'manner' is used here. I am sure this must have generated much discussion over which might the more correct word to use in modern English.
‘Manor’ seems to be the spelling of the original version and has the added advantage of actually making sense, bearing in mind that several of Donne’s friends probably actually had manors.
 

MTtoCamino

Veteran Member
Time of past OR future Camino
Francis SJPdP to Finnestere April(2014)
Like many of you, I had times that I found emotionally hard/harsh from others. It is all part of the Camino, a person has to basically suck it up & walk on. As the vast encounters are so much more positive. In the big picture we get way more out of the Camino than the few exceptions.

The exception to this is the folks who are assaulted. I pray for everyone. Maybe that should be the answer to the situation that was reported.
Keith
 
Create your own ad
€2,-/day will present your project to thousands of visitors each day. All interested in the Camino de Santiago.
Camino Socks
Browse the Camino Socks collection on the forum shop

WGroleau

Wandering Weirdo
Time of past OR future Camino
2015 & 2016 (partial)
We all owe many things to each other. What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.
I don't owe anyone anything, but I have an obligation to the One who created them to treat them as well as I can.
 

Most read last week in this forum

An interesting article in the Guardian, https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/sep/21/i-love-you-but-i-dont-want-to-see-you-for-the-next-six-weeks-the-case-for-a-marriage-sabbatical Some...
It’s neither simple nor a truth. People owe us – and we in return owe them – behaviour that is free from such negatives as intimidation, denigration and discrimination. And ideally should...
I’ve just had the most amazing meal! Context: after walking for 6 hours and only getting as far as 12km, I bailed and called a taxi to come get me to take me the next 12km to Ponte de Lima, where...

Similar threads

Forum Rules

Forum Rules

Camino Updates on YouTube

Camino Conversations

Most downloaded Resources

This site is run by Ivar at

in Santiago de Compostela.
This site participates in the Amazon Affiliate program, designed to provide a means for Ivar to earn fees by linking to Amazon
Official Camino Passport (Credential) | 2022 Camino Guides
Top