Numbers in front of church- what do they mean?

[P Rat]

Curious as to what the numbers carved in stone mean, does anyone have an answer?
Anyone on this forum who can shed a light on the meaning of the numbers? Much appreciated

 

[Tassie Kaz]

Curious as to what the numbers carved in stone mean, does anyone have an answer?View attachment 114981
Anyone on this forum who can shed a light on the meaning of the numbers? Much appreciated

Which church where? May help respondents if we had a bit of context.
Will be interesting to find out...on both fronts...where & what!

 

[Vacajoe]

Those mark graves. You’ll also see them inside churches, too. Burying the faithful within the church grounds not only ensured that their remains were on sacred ground but also provided a funding tool for the church.

 

[Tassie Kaz]

Those mark graves. You’ll also see them inside churches, too. Burying the faithful within the church grounds not only ensured that their remains were on sacred ground but also provided a funding tool for the church.

Am I right in assuming that practice no longer happens today? So there must be a list somewhere...matching names & dates to the numbers?

 

[Saint Mike II]

In the smaller villages it may still be possible to be buried within the Church grounds, provided there is room. Although I would agree most burials are in public cemetaries - not necessarily "sacred" ground but ground that has been concecreated.

 

[Vacajoe]

Still happens, but now it’s generally INSIDE the church or under it in the crypts. The fairly new Cathedral in Los Angeles, California USA has a basement full of bones from wealthy donors and influential clergy, all interred within the last two decades.

Many of the church graveyards you see in Spain, though, may have had the bodies removed if the church itself was decommissioned or abandoned. As for seeking which body is where, the diocese office for that area may be able to provide information, but many records were destroyed by war, governmental upheavals, and natural disasters.

As an aside, on the Portuguese island of Madeira, burial space is at a premium and families essentially rent the gravesite. If payments stop, the tombstone is removed and discarded (easy to find stacks of them onsite!), the body/ashes removed and either reburied in a mass grave or returned to the family ).

 

[trecile]

As an aside, on the Portuguese island of Madeira, burial space is at a premium and families essentially rent the gravesite. If payments stop, the tombstone is removed and discarded (easy to find stacks of them onsite!), the body/ashes removed and either reburied in a mass grave or returned to the family ).

When I spent some time in Guatemala a few years ago I was told that it was the same there.

 

[mspath]

As Vacajoe mentioned in post # 6:

Funchal, Madeira
cemetery

photo taken December 9, 2016



Distant wall is covered with headstones removed from tombs "vacated" for new burials.

Ps. This also occurs in Paris, France, cemeteries today. You pay more for
perpetual care.

 

[P Rat]

Which church where? May help respondents if we had a bit of context.
Will be interesting to find out...on both fronts...where & what!

No idea Tassie as I am asking for a friend who is in Galicia but only got the info via another platform. I have the idea thought that they are common and not just the one church...

 

[P Rat]

Thanks everyone, I have forwarded the explanation to 4xtremes, the original persons asking about them. If you are in Galicia and you see a big red truck camper...that's most likely them. Talk to them, very interesting and interested people.

 

[Tassie Kaz]

As an aside, on the Portuguese island of Madeira, burial space is at a premium and families essentially rent the gravesite. If payments stop, the tombstone is removed and discarded (easy to find stacks of them onsite!), the body/ashes removed and either reburied in a mass grave or returned to the family ).

When I spent some time in Guatemala a few years ago I was told that it was the same there.

I believe the same thing happens in Norway... (@alexwalker may be able to chime in here to confirm). While walking St Olav's Way (Oslo to Trondheim) in 2016, I seem to recall actually seeing notices attached to headstones/markers effectively giving warning to the families that their loved ones were on borrowed time...or perhaps that should read 'borrowed ground'!

 

[Kathar1na]

I believe the same thing happens in Norway...

France, Norway, Portugal … Germany, too. It’s quite common, in my opinion. The plot for an earth grave is used again for burial after 20-30 years, sometimes after 40 years if the soil has a very high clay content and unless the family wants to renew the concession against payment. The tombstone is returned to the family as it is their property, I‘ve never heard that this is done with the remains though (if there are any left).

I‘m curious about these numbers. Looks like very small plots so I wonder whether there is another explanation.

 

[Tassie Kaz]

I‘m curious about these numbers. Looks like very small plots so I wonder whether there is another explanation.

Could it perhaps be a mass grave (eg. dare I say it, in the time of a pandemic, famine, natural disaster, etc) & the numbers indicate all those buried there, rather than an actual space per person?
Just a thought...

 

[dick bird]

I'm not sure that the numbers mark a grave. Wouldn't it make more sense to put the names of the deceased on the stone? They also look rather small unless the dead were buried standing up. It is quite possible that these stones were re-used and had numbers from their original purpose. It is interesting that they are upside down to one another and not consecutive. They are carefully incised and well-formed. They look 19th century, so probably a lot more recent than the church. To be honest, I haven't a clue.

 

[Tassie Kaz]

It is quite possible that these stones were re-used and had numbers from their original purpose. It is interesting that they are upside down to one another and not consecutive.

That thought occurred to me too @dick bird. During my travels, I've been to various historical sites where stone has been 'recycled'.
Just another observation...the numbers aren't necessarily "upside down to each other" as 69 is the same either way! If you turn your device or the OP's photo around, you'll see what I mean; amazing what dawns on you at 3.43am when you can't sleep!
Thanks for posting this thread @P Rat...interesting responses & theories!

 

[Vacajoe]

Wouldn't it make more sense to put the names of the deceased on the stone?

It’s far simpler to etch a number then an entire name, plus the stones can be reused for successive burials.

 

[Bristle Boy]

An interesting thread and, I suspect, the stones may indicate the position of burials in a grave space whether in the past or having been recycled to their present position.
The reasons that names are not present is probably due to the issuing (or not) with exclusive rights.
The issuing of exclusive rights is vested in the purchaser of such rights (for a number of years or, in some cases, in perpetuity) to authorise a person the exclusive rights to exercise who may be buried in a grave but also allows the erection of an inscribed memorial subject to the regulations. These rights are more prevalent in municipal cemeteries than in churchyards. It can be more complicated than this but it may explain why only a number is present and there is an absence of any other inscription.
The graves are in effect burials that may contain numerous burials with no familial connection and no rights vested and the stones are markers for the benefit of the church.

 

[Philtration]

Similar practice, but with a twist, in Guanajuato Mexico. It's high in the mountains and there is hardly any soil. Burials are in crypts, which are rented. Because it's at a high altitude with very dry air, a small percentage of the bodies actually mummify. If a family lets the rent go or they couldn't be found, the government takes ownership. Some of the mummified bodies have been put on display in "El Museo de las Momias". Not for the faint of heart, but after the initial gruesomeness passes it's fascinating. Bodies in 3 corner hats with buckle shoes, all kinds of past history on display.

 

[PilgrimJames]

Am I right in assuming that practice no longer happens today? So there must be a list somewhere...matching names & dates to the numbers?

I am aware of a version of this being practiced in a church in Ireland. They have constructed a wall 'panel' with small compartments approx 225 x 225mm (9 sq ins) where the ashes of family members can be deposited for a fee/donation.

 

[manickam]

an interesting thread indeed. I am Hindu and follow this forum as I hope to do the Camino. In Hinduism we cremate , mostly and the ashes are dissolved in a water body . A few still do burials. But the majority are cremated - ashes unto ashes.

 

[MarioandJulie]

Very interesting! My comment is not related to barials, but I recall about 10 years ago there was a church on the camino with numbers on the stones. I dont recall the town, but apparently the church was moved stone-by-stone from the river bank to higher ground. The stones were numbered before disassembled and recontructed the same in the new location.

 

[mspath]

Very interesting! My comment is not related to barials, but I recall about 10 years ago there was a church on the camino with numbers on the stones. I dont recall the town, but apparently the church was moved stone-by-stone from the river bank to higher ground. The stones were numbered before disassembled and recontructed the same in the new location.

MarioandJulie,
The church which you recall is in Portomarin on the Camino Frances.
See more here

 

[alexwalker]

I believe the same thing happens in Norway... (@alexwalker may be able to chime in here to confirm). While walking St Olav's Way (Oslo to Trondheim) in 2016, I seem to recall actually seeing notices attached to headstones/markers effectively giving warning to the families that their loved ones were on borrowed time...or perhaps that should read 'borrowed ground'!

You are correct: We have to pay an extra fee to keep the site after a certain number of years. Tags are attached to "outgoing" tombstones to warn relatives that time is limited. If you do not pay a fee for more years, the grave will be readied for another "newbie".

On a personal note, we have been paying for our parents' grave (I believe it was done after 40 years), it's still standing, 52 years after my father left us. Our mother is also there. Will go and light candles on Christmas Eve ("Everybody" does that in Norway; it looks amazing (and comforting) with all the candles in the winter dark).

 

[Tassie Kaz]

I am aware of a version of this being practiced in a church in Ireland. They have constructed a wall 'panel' with small compartments approx 225 x 225mm (9 sq ins) where the ashes of family members can be deposited for a fee/donation.

Cemeteries in Australia do the same thing but I haven't seen it in an actual church yard or the church itself.

 

[Tassie Kaz]

You are correct: We have to pay an extra fee to keep the site after a certain nummber of years. Tags are attached to "outgoing graves to warn relatives that time is limited. If you do not pay a fee for more years, the grave will be readied for another "newbie".

On a personal note, we have been paying for our parents' grave (I believe it was done after 40 years), it's still standing, 52 years after my father left us. Our mother is also there. Will go and light candles on Christmas Eve ("Everybody" does that in Norway; it looks amazing (and comforting) with all the candles in the winter dark).

Thanks @alexwalker, for confirming what I thought I recalled seeing whilst on St Olav's Way in Norway...I wasn't 100% confident, thinking I may have got muddled up with another walk.
What a lovely tradition and image you have planted with your description of the memorial candles on Christmas Eve.

Best wishes for the season & especially for the time on Christmas Eve spent with your departed loved ones.

 

[Hiawatha]

Stone masons were assigned a number or an individual mark that identified their work . It was usually etched into the rear or underside of each ashlar though sometimes for reasons of precision or vanity it remained visible . An early form of monitoring production output and maintaining quality control .
There are many examples of these at Portomarin , painted relocation numbers aside . More are visible there , most likely because The other faces of these marked stones were weathered by age or damaged during dismantling . The marks chosen were sometimes Roman , Greek or Arabic , in some cases Master masons would design their own identifying ' Device ' ,
( arguably the origin of the modern Trademark ) woe betide any apprentice or journeyman who interfered with one so marked .

 

[mspath]

For much more re such masons' marks as mentioned by Charles Zammit in the above post see the posts and the links in this earlier Forum thread

 

[alexwalker]

Thanks @alexwalker, for confirming what I thought I recalled seeing whilst on St Olav's Way in Norway...I wasn't 100% confident, thinking I may have got muddled up with another walk.
What a lovely tradition and image you have planted with your description of the memorial candles on Christmas Eve.

Try it yourself: light a candle on Christmas Eve for your departed love ones. Who knows; it may inspire others, and then you have it.

Best wishes for the season & especially for the time on Christmas Eve spent with your departed loved ones.

Thank you very much. It is very special and giving. Respect to the folks who walked before us, and who have left us, and who we own our life for, literally. Try it.

Edit: I am diverting this thread, I am afraid. Sorry. Back on track on the numbers topic. I suspect the numbers are referring to some list of corpses being buried on sacred grounds inside/outside the church, with detailed information about each one?

 

[henrythedog]

Two of my cousins were bought their own burial plots by their parents for their 21st birthday presents. (Yes, I know …)

In principle it’s no different to several African cultures where one’s blanket or cloak becomes your burial shroud - a constant reminder that in the midst of life one is in death.

I got a motorbike and a case of whisky. Happily I kept them separate.

Life was simpler (and potentially shorter) then.

 

[dick bird]

I am sceptical about the burial theory. If it were common practice in Spain to bury the dead temporarily under numbered stones, you would see them outside every church in Spain. You would also see a lot of them here, not just two. It is also fairly certain those stones have not moved since they were set there. The numbers may have been carved before or after the stones were laid for all kinds of purposes. It would help if we knew which church it is.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

The Roman Museum in Astorga has a number of gravestones on display.

On a personal note, a number of my early New England ancestors are almost certainly buried in a churchyard in a nearby town. What happened before there were gravestone carvers available was the graves would be marked with fieldstones, possibly with names scratched onto them. One hundred years or more a rock wall needed to be constructed in the graveyard. That was the end of the fieldstone markers. A 9th great-grandmother has the second oldest gravestone there, dating to the 1690s.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Cemeteries in Australia do the same thing but I haven't seen it in an actual church yard or the church itself.

My catholic church in Gerringong (part of Kiama Parish) has recently introduce a "memorial walk/wall" where one can purchase a space for ones ashes. I have purchased a place and as far as I know its in perpetuity. But will check if anyone is interested. Cheers

 

[alexwalker]

Best wishes for the season & especially for the time on Christmas Eve spent with your departed loved ones.

My catholic church in Gerringong (part of Kiama Parish) has recently introduce a "memorial walk/wall" where one can purchase a space for ones ashes. I have purchased a place and as far as I know its in perpetuity. But will check if anyone is interested. Cheers

It is becoming very popular in Norway too, to ask for an urne placement in a memorial site. Personally, I have instructed to be poured into my salmon river when the time comes. But, back to the numbers...

 

[SeaHorse]

Speaking about burials in Spain. I visited the Silo de Charlemagne in Roncesvalles, you know, that old square building with arches all around on ground floor level and bulky roof. There were new graves on the perimeter and the guide said the villagers move the bones into the deep crypt in the centre of the building after a certain time, like 30 years or so, because the space is limited on the perimeter. The remains of Roland (Roldano) are there too. And there's still lots of space. It's a small village.

 

[Kathar1na]

the guide said the villagers move the bones into the deep crypt in the centre of the building after a certain time, like 30 years or so, because the space is limited on the perimeter.

I'm surprised to read that the ossuary in the 'silo' of Roncesvalles is still used. There have been archaeological digs in recent years and I see now that a further excavation is planned for 2022: https://www.archaeological.org/fieldwork/ossuary-of-roncesvalles/

Ossuaries where skeletal remains are kept are not unusual in Europe, especially in Catholic regions. I understand that the decomposition processes in earth graves depend very much on soil composition, perhaps even climate. In some regions, if there are skeletal bones found when an earth grave is reused the remains are simply put a little lower down in the ground, without being marked in any way. I read a comment that said in particular in southern and eastern Europe, ossuaries are still in use.

The more I think about it, the less I find an explanation for the two stones with the two numbers on them in the photo.

 

[Kathar1na]

There were new graves on the perimeter and the guide said the villagers move the bones into the deep crypt in the centre of the building after a certain time, like 30 years or so, because the space is limited on the perimeter.

It sounds a little odd to me because the village of Burguete which belongs to Roncesvalles and is closest to Roncesvalles has a cemetery of its own and apparently one that is well worth a visit: http://arte-historia-curiosidades.blogspot.com/2017/06/cementerio-burguete-auritz.html.

I would think that recent graves are those of priest who have lived at Roncesvalles? I don't think that any locals actually live in Roncesvalles. The skulls and bones at the bottom of this square pit are interesting to look at but ... quite in disarray and at time flooded with water and muddy. Is it really still in use today?

Note the shape of the headstones in the Burguete cemetery; it is characteristic for Navarra.

 

[Kathar1na]

A few screenshots of the 'silo' in Roncesvalles as it makes it easier to know what we are talking about. And not everybody visits these sites at Roncesvalles. I myself either didn't notice or had forgotten about the graves of abbots and priests around the perimeter wall of the silo. They can be seen below, and I noticed that the headstones are numbered. However, there are also explicatory signs next to them, I guess with details such as name, date of birth and death, position at Roncesvalles monastery and so on.

 

[Kathar1na]

A bit more about the current excavations: Our field research in the site started in 2019, and in these last three campaigns we have been able to excavate about 1,8 meters deep of an area of some 9 by 4 meters (30 by 14 feet) on the south side of the Silo's interior. We are working at some 5 meters below the ground level, and as you can easily imagine, it is a spectacular site and working here is an extremely singular experience. We are still far from the structure's assumed depth of between 8 and 12 meters, and we anticipate work at the site for the next 5-7 years.

Many of the remains and artefacts found so far are dated to the armed conflicts in the area during recent centuries, i.e. French and Spanish soldiers, others to the patients of the post-medieval hospital, and one of the skeletons/remains was found with a scallop shell.

Including a link to the application form for the two sessions in July and August 2022 with fees of €1750 for tuition and accommodation during 3 weeks. I think that the participants are housed in the Roncesvalles albergue.

 

[VNwalking]

Including a link to the application form for the two sessions in July and August 2022

Wow. I'd have jumped at this as an undergraduate, even long before walking a camino.

But with an appreciation of the way? Wow.
Imagine, being from (say) Bordeaux or Paris - walking from home, pausing for the field school, then continuing on.

They describe the site as claustrophobic. I bet. It must be something else altogether.

 

[mspath]

Wow. I'd have jumped at this as an undergraduate, even long before walking a camino.

But with an appreciation of the way? Wow.
Imagine, being from (say) Bordeaux or Paris - walking from home, pausing for the field school, then continuing on.

They describe the site as claustrophobic. I bet. It must be something else altogether.

VN,
Imagine indeed! If I were 60 years younger I'd apply. Perhaps Wishing Will Make It So

 

[SeaHorse]

I would think that recent graves are those of priest who have lived at Roncesvalles?

One was of a young firefighter. As far as I remember, not checking now, there are a handful of people who live in Roncesvalles too.

They describe the site as claustrophobic.

The outer perimeter with the open arches is not, the crypt most certainly. You could see in through a kind of a window, deep and lots of bones and skulls in there.

 

[VNwalking]

The outer perimeter with the open arches is not, the crypt most certainly. You could see in through a kind of a window, deep and lots of bones and skulls in there.

They were specifically referring to the archaeological dig area, yeah - down in the crypt - but digging even deeper.

 

[Bob from L.A. !]

What an interesting thread this turned out to be