Pagan origins of the Camino

[Kathar1na]

Speaking of which, when people don't know how to translate a Latin word such as peregrinus correctly and in a meaningful way into their language because they are not aware of meaning and context at the time the word was used, you can find the most hilarious howlers.

There are, for example, books and websites related to history telling you about peoples in the wider Danube/Hungary area who are described by Pliny as civitas peregrina, and they render this, in all seriousness, as a wandering tribe.

In reality, Pliny refers to a feature of Roman administration: When the Romans created a new Roman province out of the foreign territory that they had conquered, it was customary to create administrative entities under whose jurisdiction the natives are placed ('civitas peregrina'). So the term refers to a foreign town or county or region etc (peregrinus = foreign) with administrative status under Roman law. It was not meant to describe either a wandering tribe or a town full of pilgrims or an online community of pilgrims like this forum.

I have often wondered whether some enterprising self-publishing modern writer had spotted in a scholarly work that there were indeed civitates peregrinae aka peregrine communities in Spain in Roman times and concluded that they must have been full of pilgrims. But, alas, I have no proof for this speculation.

 

[David Tallan]

I have no doubt the Camino pre-dates Christianity by a considerable time. Homo Neanderthalis was probably dodging Mastodons on the Meseta.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "Camino". We certainly know that human habitation in Spain goes back a very long time indeed. So the land was there and there were people there. Does that make a Camino? Of that I'm not so sure. I doubt very much that your Homo Neanderthalis dodging Mastodons was walking from the Pyrenees to the coast (or the spot some 90 km inland where Santiago is now to be found). He or she probably never left the Meseta. Would one thus say he was on the Camino?

 

[Tincatinker]

Would one thus say he was on the Camino?

On it, but not of it perhaps? And by the time they got to Atapuerca it had been a long walk (and a lot of personal development) since they left Africa

 

[David Tallan]

On it, but not of it perhaps? And by the time they got to Atapuerca it had been a long walk (and a lot of personal development) since they left Africa

I don't know. For me just being on the Meseta where the Camino would one day be doesn't put them on the Camino any more than being on the piece of land in the middle of Spain where Madrid would one day in the future be wouldn't put someone in Madrid.

 

[Tincatinker]

I don't know. For me just being on the Meseta where the Camino would one day be doesn't put them on the Camino any more than being on the piece of land in the middle of Spain where Madrid would one day in the future be wouldn't put someone in Madrid.

Depends on whether you believe in ghosts

 

[Joe Walsh]

Hello Fellow Pilgrims,
I am interested in researching the pagan origins of the Camino. Do you have any suggestions of resources and/or authors that I could look into? I don't have a clue where or how to begin.

Thanks so much and Buen Camino!

Samten,

Thanks for your question because it has generated a great reading list on the topic from Kathar1na and others.

Aside from the articles in spanish and her references of classical writers, Kathar1na has also given a link to the english book Heritage, Pilrimage and the Camino to Finisterre which gives extensive bibliography for its preface as well as for each chapter. Anybody who wants to do some balanced research in order to arrive at an informed opinion on the question, will find what they are looking for, for starters, based on Kathar1na’s links.

The Heritage book is very informative both for history and also for looking into contemporary camino issues which pilgrims will experience as they interact with the local stakeholders and providers of service. As a collection of essays, you can pick and choose what to read per your interest. I look forward to reading he whole book.

This question of origins deserves more than just a cursory thumbs up or down. Looking into the question without an entrenched opinion, opens up a richer appreciation of where pilgrimage in Spain has been and where it is going. Uncertainty is what keeps us still looking. Green and growing not ripe and rotting.

Cheers to Samten, Kathar1na and the others who have followed their lead! Let’s keep the conversation going with commentary about what the literature mentioned above is reporting.

 

[hecate105]

Happy to emerge from the wardrobe - I am defo a pagan and ecstatic to be so!!

 

[JabbaPapa]

 

[Gerard Griffin]

Where's the Spanish Inquisition now that we really need them? You never know when you need an Inquisitor. Is there a phone number we can call when we meet an unrepentant pagan pilgrim?

 

[Tincatinker]

Where's the Spanish Inquisition now that we really need them? You never know when you need an Inquisitor. Is there a phone number we can call when we meet an unrepentant pagan pilgrim?

Just text to 666. All responses can be disregarded as mythical at best

And a thought from a corner and to paraphrase Bonhoeffer: “then they came for the pagans, and I did not speak…”. You know how it goes

 

[Pelegrin]

I learnt in this thread that pagan comes from paganus the one who lives in a pagus ( a village, an area ). In Spanish the word " pago" is payment, but another meaning is the same as latin pagus. This meaning is today referred almost only to "vino de pago", that is an special denomination of high quality wines that only twenty wineries in Spain have. Some people in Spain think that a "vino de pago" is an "expensive wine" ( payment) because they don't know the second meaning.

 

[David Tallan]

I learnt in this thread that pagan comes from paganus the one who lives in a pagus ( a village, an area ). In Spanish the word " pago" is payment, but another meaning is the same as latin pagus. This meaning is today referred almost only to "vino de pago", that is an special denomination of high quality wines that only twenty wineries in Spain have. Some people in Spain think that a "vino de pago" is an "expensive wine" ( payment) because they don't know the second meaning.

And "pagar" would be to walk from village to village, especially when done with a tour operator.

 

[Kathar1na]

And btw, @Gerard Griffin, a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading.

 

[SabsP]

And btw, @Gerard Griffin, a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading.

Cheers @Kathar1na for keeping us focused on the content of this interesting thread!
Still have to read alot of the references you posted here earlier.

 

[David Tallan]

And btw, @Gerard Griffin, a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading.

The Spanish Inquisition mostly persecuted people they suspected as secretly being Jews or Muslims after the forced conversions. Other heretics, I believe, were a distant third place.

I'm in the middle of reading Jews, Food, and Spain by Hélène Jawhara Piñer. One of the main sources of our knowledge of medieval Sephardic food practices is records of the Inquisition when people were accused of secretly being Jewish based on the foods they prepared and ate.

 

[Pelegrin]

And btw, @Gerard Griffin, a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading.

The last "auto de fe" against witches was in 1610 in Zugarramurdi (Navarra). The famous Salem (Massachusetts) trial was in 1692.

 

[Kathar1na]

Jews, Food, and Spain by Hélène Jawhara Piñer. One of the main sources of our knowledge of medieval Sephardic food practices is records of the Inquisition when people were accused of secretly being Jewish based on the foods they prepared and ate.

Yes, I remember that we discussed this some time ago. Really interesting. I think that whole protocols of interviewing "witnesses" such as servants or maids in the households of people who had voluntarily or under coercion converted from the Jewish faith to the Christian faith have been preserved.

The Spanish Inquisition mostly persecuted people they suspected as secretly being Jews or Muslims after the forced conversions. Other heretics, I believe, were a distant third place.

I have no idea. I read that Spanish Inquisition had jurisdiction only over Christians. Therefore, only those who self-identified as Christians could be investigated and trialed by it. And also, that the King of Spain ordered that that the inquisitors should never proceed against the Indians (in the Spanish colonies) - at the time the only "pagans" in the Spanish empire.

So really, it all has nothing to do with pagans, and besides, it all happened after the pilgrimage to Saint James in Galicia had not only been established but was already in decline and losing popularity. So absolutely no connection with the existence of a potential pre-Christian Camino.

 

[juanxxiii]

I got sidetracked ... .

In any case, if I have not yet made it clear enough: I am less interested in what they would call "original research" or "own research" on Wikipedia which is not allowed there, at least in principle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research

What I am interested in are the actual historical sources, over centuries, that contain claims about anything that could be classified as a pilgrimage of some sort to the region around today's Santiago and how these authors contributed to the narratives that we hear today and that are often presented as facts while they are largely based on fiction when you actually look at the sources. I find that quite fascinating for more than one reason.

From this point of view, Juan Satti's twelve articles are a real treasure trove because he has compiled so many details about these sources, what they say in the original version and in a Spanish translation and in particular, unlike so many other contemporary articles, books and websites, he provides sufficient information (authors, titles of their books, etc) that makes it possible to find and access such sources directly. And with the World Wide Web being the marvellous tool that it is, these sources are now accessible to all of us who have an interest in this topic!

Thanks for yours words, but the articles are 16 and the others more complet the history of finisterre and not in these serial. Searching! i m living in finisterre and living its history in every inch.Coming soon

"El origen del Camino de Santiago XVI- capítulo final:"De Camino espiritual a meganegocio eclesial" - Adiante Galicia

Juan Gabriel Satti Bouzas. Accede al capítulo anterior

www.adiantegalicia.es

 

[malingerer]

I saw this thread going sideways as soon as it was posted. I hope Tinca can bring back some sense and order to it.
Are we discussing "pagans" or are we researching "pre-historic" migrations?
There were immigration trails worldwide since creation and these immigrants/pilgrims followed certain stars or a constellation in the galaxy of stars to what they thought might be the end of the world. It always seems to be westward for some reason, perhaps to follow the sun? The Native Americans, the Basque, the Celts were all the same.
No one is going to reveal much because there is nothing to be revealed.,
Other than perhaps ancient mankind was seeking away to find a way back to the planet that deposited us here in the first place?

That last sentence reverberates with me as it forms one of the roots of my poetry in the thread Poems for Seekers.
Gracias

Samarkand.

 

[Gerard Griffin]

Thanks for the history lesson, but I was of course using the word "pagan" in a looser, less technical sense, in order to look at the Camino experience of the many modern pilgrims who don't see their spirituality in Christian terms. Also, my suggestion that the redoubtable Inquisitors might become involved (no-one expects the Spanish Inquisition) was what we term a "joke", i.e. a remark not intended to be taken literally ... A concept with which those on the forum often seem unfamiliar.

 

[Kathar1na]

Thanks for the history lesson, but I was of course using the word "pagan" in a looser, less technical sense, in order to look at the Camino experience of the many modern pilgrims who don't see their spirituality in Christian terms. Also, my suggestion that the redoubtable Inquisitors might become involved (no-one expects the Spanish Inquisition) was what we term a "joke", i.e. a remark not intended to be taken literally ... A concept with which those on the forum often seem unfamiliar.

I guess that is a reaction to my comment: a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading ?

A comment which I see I ended with my poker face icon.

Let me start with a big . I love Monty Python, I enjoy funny remarks, whether absurdly witty, or erudite witty, or silly witty, or a clever pun, or just a good joke. "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" is of course such an old joke that it has already gotten a long beard. Posted to death one might be tempted to say. I thought it was funny to turn it into an opportunity for a bit of further education. Anyway, what I don't enjoy so much are funny joke remarks (i.e. funny in the mind of the writer) that are plastered indiscriminately just anywhere in any thread where there is an empty space to be filled with typing and a "post reply" button to press. I cannot say whether I am the only forum member with such a reaction, there may be one or two others.

This is an old thread that has been dormant for more than half a year and I don't know why it surfaced yesterday nor do I quite understand content and purpose of yesterday's comment by @juanxxiii. He is apparently a new member, so welcome to the forum.

 

[Kirkie]

Thanks for the history lesson, but I was of course using the word "pagan" in a looser, less technical sense, in order to look at the Camino experience of the many modern pilgrims who don't see their spirituality in Christian terms. Also, my suggestion that the redoubtable Inquisitors might become involved (no-one expects the Spanish Inquisition) was what we term a "joke", i.e. a remark not intended to be taken literally ... A concept with which those on the forum often seem unfamiliar.

@Gerard Griffin I would like to say this: literally? - hmm! How can we cope with that on a 'flat' forum? I am unfamiliar with a lot of nuances. Something I learned in a real space many many years ago was that humour is almost impossible to translate into a different space than the one in which it is born.

 

[Gerard Griffin]

Very true, Kirkie, it's all anthropological ... People from different cultures will always grate on each other's nerves, as the testiness of the preceding post indicates. Once it gets personal, that's when I abandon the discussion. It's a pity that the original idea: pagan motives for Camino ... Couldn't be pleasantly and cogently explored. The mysteries of the Germanic soul, if that's not a contradiction in terms.

 

[Kirkie]

Very true, Kirkie, it's all anthropological ... People from different cultures will always grate on each other's nerves, as the testiness of the preceding post indicates. Once it gets personal, that's when I abandon the discussion. It's a pity that the original idea: pagan motives for Camino ... Couldn't be pleasantly and cogently explored. The mysteries of the Germanic soul, if that's not a contradiction in terms.

Take it easy today. I will.
When all is said and one, more is said than done. A very wise, if unlettered lady, shared that with me as we cleaned and set up a dining room many many years ago! Seriously, and genuinely, have a lovely day.

 

[Gerard Griffin]

Thanks, you too

 

[Kirkie]

Very true, Kirkie, it's all anthropological ... People from different cultures will always grate on each other's nerves, as the testiness of the preceding post indicates. Once it gets personal, that's when I abandon the discussion. It's a pity that the original idea: pagan motives for Camino ... Couldn't be pleasantly and cogently explored. The mysteries of the Germanic soul, if that's not a contradiction in terms.

Re-reading: pagan motives for Camino. What do you actually mean? The word camino means way, path.
Caminar, to walk.
The Camino with a capital letter is hinting at the Santiago route. Yes?
Not that I have read preceding posts, please humour me, although not jocularly !
True confession. I was born post WW2. Into a beautiful socialist dream, in my opinion, equal opportunity for all.
Did it work?
N0, sadly. I still can dream..
This is not a pm, for anyone else who wishes to pop in to the conversation!

 

[Gerard Griffin]

I mean that people of various kinds walk from various places towards Santiago, and they have some reason for doing so. Many have reasons that can be described as "religious", others as "spiritual". Modern paganism (the term is used loosely, so let's not go all dictionary just yet) interests me, and it seems clear that pilgrimage on the Camino trails predates Christianity. I wonder how and why modern "pagans" take to the Camino, and how they experience sharing it with the more conventionally religious types? Just a question ...

 

[JabbaPapa]

I really do not understand the purposes of those trying to "paganize" a Catholic Christian pilgrimage.

 

[Tincatinker]

And I, a self-identifying pagan from generations in recollection of self-identifying pagans, with firm belief in our collection of old Gods and old ways - I sometimes get seriously pissed off that every aethiestic, agnostic and “can’t be arsed” gets classed as a pagan. Or worse still tries to wear our Tshirt.

 

[juanxxiii]

I guess that is a reaction to my comment: a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading ?

A comment which I see I ended with my poker face icon.

Let me start with a big . I love Monty Python, I enjoy funny remarks, whether absurdly witty, or erudite witty, or silly witty, or a clever pun, or just a good joke. "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" is of course such an old joke that it has already gotten a long beard. Posted to death one might be tempted to say. I thought it was funny to turn it into an opportunity for a bit of further education. Anyway, what I don't enjoy so much are funny joke remarks (i.e. funny in the mind of the writer) that are plastered indiscriminately just anywhere in any thread where there is an empty space to be filled with typing and a "post reply" button to press. I cannot say whether I am the only forum member with such a reaction, there may be one or two others.

This is an old thread that has been dormant for more than half a year and I don't know why it surfaced yesterday nor do I quite understand content and purpose of yesterday's comment by @juanxxiii. He is apparently a new member, so welcome to the forum.

Sorry, I´m Juan G, Satti and I saw yesterday this forum. I´m so glad for your interest in my articles.
Sincerely best regards

 

[juanxxiii]

I really do not understand the purposes of Catholic Church trying to "christianize" every place from antiques religions. The religions overlap like layers of an onion

 

[JabbaPapa]

I really do not understand the purposes of Catholic Church trying to "christianize" every place from antiques religions. The religions overlap like layers of an onion

It is a Christian pilgrimage to a Christian shrine. Not sure what in this fact is hard to comprehend.

 

[Philtration]

And I, a self-identifying pagan from generations in recollection of self-identifying pagan, with firm belief in our collection of old Gods and old ways - I sometimes get seriously pissed off that every aethiestic, agnostic and “can’t be arsed” gets classed as a pagan. Or worse still tries to wear our Tshirt.

This brings up the obvious next stage of a camino discussion, who are the real pagans. ; )

 

[JabbaPapa]

This brings up the obvious next stage of a camino discussion, who are the real pagans. ; )

Problem with this is, then we're discussing religion rather than History ...

 

[juanxxiii]

It is a Christian pilgrimage to a Christian shrine. Not sure what in this fact is hard to comprehend.

It is a Christian pilgrimage to a Christian shrine, ACTUALLY . But the "pagan" origin `cause other pilgrims walked first and marked the path. Like the Romans made the viarium , our streets of today. Not sure what in this fact is hard to comprehend.

 

[juanxxiii]

Problem with this is, then we're discussing religion rather than History ...

Humanity history include the religions- The problem is believe that Truly religion is chistianism and the others RELIGIONS are "myths"

 

[JabbaPapa]

It is a Christian pilgrimage to a Christian shrine, ACTUALLY . But the "pagan" origin `cause other pilgrims walked first and marked the path. Like the Romans made the viarium , our streets of today. Not sure what in this fact is hard to comprehend.

There was no such place as Santiago de Compostela in pagan times.

It did not exist, therefore there was no "pagan" "pilgrimage" to that place.

The entire notion is completely anachronistic.

 

[SabsP]

I really do not understand the purposes of Catholic Church trying to "christianize" every place from antiques religions. The religions overlap like layers of an onion

Immensely interesting to talk about Juan but take into consideration that one of the forumrules is that you cannot get too deep into discussing religion here.
It will end that people get into a tantrum and throw their toys out of the pram, start crying or get into endless discussions about the origins of the Christmas tree or the Transubstantiation.

Better to make some conversations through pm .

 

[juanxxiii]

Immensely interesting to talk about Juan but take into consideration that one of the forumrules is that you cannot get too deep into discussing religion here.
It will end that people get into a tantrum and throw their toys out of the pram, start crying or get into endless discussions about the origins of the Christmas tree or the Transubstantiation.

Better to make some conversations through pm .

sorry i´m in europe: is PM ;D

 

[SabsP]

sorry i´m in europe: is PM ;D

Private message. The small envelope in the right upper corner of this forum.
Europe too here btw

 

[juanxxiii]

There was no such place as Santiago de Compostela in pagan times.

It did not exist, therefore there was no "pagan" "pilgrimage" to that place.

The entire notion is completely anachronistic.

exactly, the true pilgrimage is to Finisterre, end to road, The catholic way is a fake completely anachronistic: you're right (read my explications in my articles. santiago is a city without beach, and the pilgrims' shell????
Have a good day

 

[Gerard Griffin]

Nicholas of Cusa settled this fascinating issue in the 15th century ... Look at his "De Docta Ignorantia"

 

[juanxxiii]

I don't talk about God or philosophy. I talk about who made the way of James based on historical documents and archeology. And who appropriated the way for bussines, of course
greetings to all

 

[Pafayac]

It is true that christianism (and probably most of religions) has embedded some parts coming from previous cults, mainly festivals (at the solstice for example).
But I cannot find evidences that there was a pagan pilgrimage before the Camino de Santiago. However the current pilgrimage has begun not before the VIIIe century: if some other pilgrimage has existed there, the History should have kept memory of it. Perhaps there was an ancient cult of stones in Muxia, but it was local.
I think that St James Way has begun for political reason: against the Moors and in order for Compostela to take precedence on Tolede church (which was the main church in Wisigothic Spain)
The way to St James from Pyrenees (Camino Frances) follows a previous roman way, the via Trajana, but it was an economical itinerary, not a religious one.

 

[JabbaPapa]

exactly, the true pilgrimage is to Finisterre

No it isn't.

But I cannot find evidences that there was a pagan pilgrimage before the Camino de Santiago. However the current pilgrimage has begun not before the VIIIe century: if some other pilgrimage has existed there, the History should have kept memory of it. Perhaps there was an ancient cult of stones in Muxia, but it was local.
I think that St James Way has begun for political reason: against the Moors and in order for Compostela to take precedence on Tolede church (which was the main church in Wisigothic Spain)
The way to St James from Pyrenees (Camino Frances) follow a previous roman way, the via Trajana, but it was an economical itinerary, not a religious one.

Exactly.

 

[Tincatinker]

Iexactly, the true pilgrimage is to Finisterre, end to road, The catholic way is a fake completely anachronistic: you're right (read my explications in my articles. santiago is a city without beach, and the pilgrims' shell????
Have a good day

The true pilgrimage is to where? How can the pilgrimage to the bones of Santiago be to Finisterre? The bones of Santiago do not rest at Finisterre. They never have and they likely never will. @juanxxiii i think you are trying to cross hobble two traditions as if they were ever or ever could be one.
I have been pilgrim. I have made pilgrimage to the bones of Santiago; I have made pilgrimage to the end-of-the-world; I have made pilgrimage to the broken boat that will, one day, carry me across the sundering seas to that island of eternal summer where, among others, my gran is waiting.

Each and every pilgrimage has been as valid, valued and valuable as the others. I’m, frankly, astonished that you could make the assertions you have unless you’re just another wind-up merchant or internet troll or you just haven’t bothered to read the fascinating threads that weave these stories into our lives.

Of course there are no facts. Facts are gold coin, in hand. Everything else is illusion

 

[Gerard Griffin]

We are all pilgrims, on the same journey, to the same place ... Buen Camino, all

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Fascinating! Thank you for the facts. Here is a narrative from the local turismo and a picture of the castro foundations. There is also the El Rocio in Andalusia, and I learned last year that there is also a local Spring romeria honoring The Lady in Roncesvalles.


“O Facho Mount is located at an altitude of 184 metres, in Costa da Vela. It takes its name from the look-out post erected on its summit. The archaeological interventions established that the first human settlement goes back to the Bronze Age (9th century B.C.E.). A fort and pre-Roman sanctuary was built in the 4th century B.C.E., which remained intact until the 1st century B.C.E. and whose ruins are still preserved. In the 3rdand 4th centuries, a Galician-Roman sanctuary was erected in order to cater to the ancient beliefs. Later on, in the 17th century, a military lookout was built atop of the mount. Throughout the centuries, Monte do Facho was home to many different life expressions, and all of them are part of Galician history. In addition, the top of the mount boasts glorious panoramic views of the Cíes Islands, the cliffs, and the rías.”

Be very careful with "facts" provided by local turismos. They propagate the most spectacular moonshine imaginable.

 

[Tincatinker]

Fact: when God made Men she laughed for eons

 

[hecate105]

Debating the meaning of 'pagan'! Makes a very pleasant change from debating the meaning of 'pilgrim'.

I am a pagan pilgrim! and I knows what I is and what I believes.... (yes - I is from Devon...)
But tis fun to read all the debating.....

 

[Tincatinker]

One other thought: for fans of Peter Pan or Wonderful Life; for students of Shakespeare reading a mid-summers nights dream (punctuation varies by folio). For those who will toss a coin in a fountain, off a bridge or even into a beggars hat; will never burn bread or spill salt without making an offer in appeasement: for those who still cross their fingers when they tell a lie; for those who’ll turn the “”,”” if a black cat crosses their path: I know it’s a comfort to believe that it’s only what you believe in can hurt you or support you. Truth is we’re still trying to sort out that bit. But if a devil bites yer bum bite back

 

[Kathar1na]

I am a pagan pilgrim! and I knows what I is and what I believes.... (yes - I is from Devon...) But tis fun to read all the debating.....

I agree, some of it is quite amusing.

While I was puzzling about the purpose of one particular cultural contribution in this thread (I‘ve still not yet figured it out) and read your comment and similar recent comments I was thinking that there is now doubt whatsoever concerning the fact that people of all faiths and none walk the Camino trails these days: Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostics, Lapsed Catholics, Protestants, a whole range of people who describe themselves as Spiritual but not Religious … but does this tell us anything about the pre-9th century history of the space between say Roncesvalles and Fisterra, or Salisbury and Muxia, or Ratisbon (Regensburg) and Santiago?

As a teenager, I devoured books about the Greek myths of Hercules and Zeus, the Germanic sagas of Wotan and Freya, the tales collected by the Grimms (the fat book with about 200 tales and not the slim version let alone a disneyfied one), heard Bible stories, heard and read the local myths of my native village … part and parcel of my cultural background and that of many other peregrin@s. Maybe I believe some of it. Maybe there is some historical reality or the other in them. Where I grew up, there are traces left of the people who lived there 7000 years ago. People of the Linear Pottery culture. I’ve picked up small shards of such pottery myself - it turns up occasionally when the fields are ploughed. Did these people walk 2200 km to Fisterra? For purposes of their beliefs - not ours. Isn’t that the question?

 

[Gerard Griffin]

Yes, that's exactly the question

 

[JabbaPapa]

How about the Christian origin of the Ways of Saint James, Saint Peter, and Saint Mary at Lourdes and Fátima ?

And countless other pilgrimage destinations throughout Europe ?

 

[Tincatinker]

How about the Christian origin of the Ways of Saint James, Saint Peter, and Saint Mary at Lourdes and Fátima ?

And countless other pilgrimage destinations throughout Europe ?

Now that is definitely a topic for another thread. Maybe the Mods will oblige.

What occurs to me is the question of where did those early and later middle-ages pilgrims get the idea of pilgrimage from? If Faith is all you need why would you decide to walk all the way to Jerusalem? Was it 'cos while you can read the book or look at the picture/fresco there is still nothing quite like the place?

 

[Pafayac]

What occurs to me is the question of where did those early and later middle-ages pilgrims get the idea of pilgrimage from?

Do not forget than long before christianism, judaism has lead believers to Jerusalem: there was a single Temple for jews, and it was in Jerusalem. Several times a year, practicing jews were going to Jerusalem (most probably walking) for religious festivals.
Even before that, in India Benares was yet a target for pilgrimages.
Religions needs symbols (that is to say, something to gather): places are good thing to gather people in order to pray together, to practice a cult...
Therefore, middle-ages pilgrims were very used to pilgrimages. Mainly local pilgrimages, but also long-range ones...

 

[JabbaPapa]

What occurs to me is the question of where did those early and later middle-ages pilgrims get the idea of pilgrimage from? If Faith is all you need why would you decide to walk all the way to Jerusalem?

The original pilgrimage to Jerusalem was clearly Jewish, and as to "Faith is all you need", it is a late 20th - early 21st Century notion of pilgrimage anachronistic with Antiquity.

Regardless, Jewish pilgrimages to Jerusalem 2,500 + years ago were by by definition not "pagan". I'm quite dubious of this modern trend of shoving "paganism" into everything, including especially where it does not belong.

 

[Kathar1na]

What occurs to me is the question of where did those early and later middle-ages pilgrims get the idea of pilgrimage from? If Faith is all you need why would you decide to walk all the way to Jerusalem?

Are you testing us and our knowledge ?

I happened to have called up my edition of Medieval European Pilgrimage c.700-c.1500 by Diana Webb today, and there it is already on pages 1 and 2 of the first chapter:

​

Christian pilgrimage, at least over long distances, was probably relatively uncommon before the reign of Constantine. [...] Initially, at least, Christianity challenged the apparently innate human inclination to believe that certain places are holier than others, either in their nature or because they have been specially sanctified by mythic events or by ritual. From the beginning there were those who remembered, in the words of St John's Gospel (4:24), that God was to be worshipped in the spirit and in truth, and that this could not be done more (or less) effectively in one place than in another.​

​

A first step in the opposite direction was taken almost as soon as [...]​

​

[You will have to read the rest for yourself - it is only 200 pages. ]​

 

[Tincatinker]

The original pilgrimage to Jerusalem was clearly Jewish, and as to "Faith is all you need", it is a late 20th - early 21st Century notion of pilgrimage anachronistic with Antiquity.

Regardless, Jewish pilgrimages to Jerusalem 2,500 + years ago were by by definition not "pagan". I'm quite dubious of this modern trend of shoving "paganism" into everything, including especially where it does not belong.

I’ve never, consciously, tried to shove my beliefs in anywhere. I think I fairly firmly stated around about #2 in this very enjoyable thread that there is absolutely no argument, let alone evidence, for any pre-christian or any archaic pilgrimage to Santiago. There’s no, or at least very little, evidence of any pre-christian or archaic pilgrimage to Fisterra, Muxia, Roman Finis Terre or anywhere else on this poor benighted planet.

So, my question was, why.

@Kathar1na has opened a doorway or two. I’ll be wandering those pages for a while. Meanwhile, why? Why and where from came the Christian, Muslim, Buddhist urge for “Camino”. Why did the sparse populations of Neolithic Europe build sacred sites and then travel to them at certain times of year to perform ritualized practices. What’s the point?

Because if there is a point ( fans of Harry Nilsson may like to look away) then the point is what this thread started out in search of. And petulant rejection of the topic gets us no further than “nothing to see here, move along, move along”.

The Camino doesn’t need protection. It’ll cope with whatever it gets. But, surely, a deep dive into the origins of pilgrimage and, perhaps, our perceptions of pilgrimage is worthwhile.

And, @JabbaPapa, I think there is a potentially great thread for this forum delving the Christian origins of the Camino de Santiago. Just not this one.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I’ve never, consciously, tried to shove my beliefs in anywhere.

I have not claimed you were doing so, I talked in an impersonal manner of a "modern trend" by some third parties -- just clarifying, if that helps.

 

[VNwalking]

there is absolutely no argument, let alone evidence, for any pre-christian or any archaic pilgrimage to Santiago. There’s no, or at least very little, evidence of any pre-christian or archaic pilgrimage to Fisterra, Muxia, Roman Finis Terre or anywhere else on this poor benighted planet.

And petulant rejection of the topic gets us no further than “nothing to see here, move along, move along”.

Now I'm genuinely confused.
Are you arguing both sides of the discussion, @Tincatinker , or am I misinterpreting what you wrote? Your first quote is far from petulant, so I assume you mean something else?

But, surely, a deep dive into the origins of pilgrimage and, perhaps, our perceptions of pilgrimage is worthwhile.

Yes.
Especially the perceptions part, because (historically correct or not) this is what people bring to their own caminos.

 

[Gerard Griffin]

Great news in the Telegraph today ... At last the question of who is a pilgrim and who isn't has been resolved. This issue is beyond the scope of human reason, but we've received help from an unexpected source ... The headline reads "Bedbugs carried into Spanish hotels by Christian pilgrims".

So if you don't get bitten, sorry, you're not the real thing, you pagan tourist you

 

[witchywit]

Hello

Hello Fellow Pilgrims,
I am interested in researching the pagan origins of the Camino. Do you have any suggestions of resources and/or authors that I could look into? I don't have a clue where or how to begin.

Thanks so much and Buen Camino!

Greetings Samten! I am a witch and my co-podcaster and I have been researching the pagan/preChristian/native practices the preceded the Christian Camino. My copodcaster is a researcher and a professor. I am a high school English teacher with a masters degree is Spiritual Psychology. We both have been practicing witches for decades so we bring different experiences to the table both personally as well as professionally. We have been researching this for about a year now and are starting to organize the information. We would love to share this information with you!

 

[Gerard Griffin]

This is what I'd like to hear, an answer to the OP's excellent question.

 

[Tincatinker]

Hello

Greetings Samten! I am a witch and my co-podcaster and I have been researching the pagan/preChristian/native practices the preceded the Christian Camino. My copodcaster is a researcher and a professor. I am a high school English teacher with a masters degree is Spiritual Psychology. We both have been practicing witches for decades so we bring different experiences to the table both personally as well as professionally. We have been researching this for about a year now and are starting to organize the information. We would love to share this information with you!

Please share!

 

[ShellToucher]

Having only scanned the comments I'm not sure if anyone brought up the "pre-christian" origin of Cruz de Ferro yet? Correct me if I am wrong, but I have read in a few places that the tradition dates back to travelers tossing a stone at what may have been just a cairn to a shrine to Hermes. This was done for safe travel, being he was the god of such. Anyone have anymore pieces of this origin story? Thanks in advance!

 

[Tincatinker]

Having only scanned the comments I'm not sure if anyone brought up the "pre-christian" origin of Cruz de Ferro yet? Correct me if I am wrong, but I have read in a few places that the tradition dates back to travelers tossing a stone at what may have been just a cairn to a shrine to Hermes. This was done for safe travel, being he was the god of such. Anyone have anymore pieces of this origin story? Thanks in advance!

Worth putting Cruz Ferro into the forum search engine for some good discussion down the days. The Hermes, Mercury attribution has had a fairly good thrashing, as has the suggestion it was Galician peasants on their way to the Meseta for the grain harvest. There are no comfirmative historical records yet discovered but there is lots of “it is said”.

 

[ShellToucher]

Worth putting Cruz Ferro into the forum search engine for some good discussion down the days. The Hermes, Mercury attribution has had a fairly good thrashing, as has the suggestion it was Galician peasants on their way to the Meseta for the grain harvest. There are no comfirmative historical records yet discovered but there is lots of “it is said”.

Fair enough! Thanks Tincattinker! (Heading there now!)