Permethrin ????

[Walkingboy]

I am a bit concerned bed bugs and from reading some posts it is suggested treating your sleeping bag and bed sheet with permethrin. I have seen various sprays for sale that contain this but not a liquid form that you could add to a wash. Any suggestions?

 

[Anamiri]

I dont know where you live, in NZ it is available as a liquid in a spray bottle.

 

[Caminolou]

Id rather be bitten by a bug then sleeping in a poison soaked sleeping bag. Montsanto will probably say its safe its not such a big deal for most.

 

[MichaelB10398]

I use the spray bottle application and it seems to work well.

 

[Albertagirl]

Id rather be bitten by a bug then sleeping in a poison soaked sleeping bag. Montsanto will probably say its safe its not such a big deal for most.

For some of us, the question is not whether we would rather be bitten than to spray our pack and the outside of our sleeping bag with an insecticide. The issue is whether we want to risk taking bed bugs home and having to manage an infestation in our home.

 

[jpflavin1]

Each person makes their own decisions on bed bug repellents. Permethrin works, imo. I spray my backpack and the outside of my sleeping bag. I have never been bitten, had any side effects or transported bed bugs. (home or to the next Albergue). If someone knows a better solution, I am open. No herbal solution, I am aware of works.

Regards,
Joe

 

[Caminolou]

permethrin is banned in my country. It causes damage to mammals, invertebrates, fish and insects. Its not a selective toxin but a chemical nerve toxin. You decide as a big mammal. To prevent home infestation, throw your laundry in the washing machine.

 

[trecile]

Montsanto will probably say its safe

I don't think that Monsanto makes permethrin.

 

[Caminolou]

I don't think that Monsanto makes permethrin.

That was a joke, sort of. Anyway it causes lung and liver cancer in mice. Ill kiss a bedbug instead. Just in case. But feel free.

 

[Tincatinker]

Permethrin use isn't compulsory. Definitely don't try eating it in the ratios they feed it to mice.

I found the report below interesting. Based on a study of people with almost daily long-term exposures rather than a 30 day Camino.

"Permethrin is a synthetic pyrethroid insecticide widely used in agriculture, in public health, and in many U.S. homes and gardens.

Objective
In this study we evaluated the incidence of cancer among pesticide applicators exposed to permethrin in the Agricultural Health Study (AHS).

Methods
A total of 49,093 pesticide applicators were included in this analysis of the AHS, a prospective cohort study of licensed pesticide applicators in Iowa and North Carolina. Detailed information on pesticide exposure and lifestyle factors was obtained from self-administered questionnaires completed in 1993–1997. Average length of follow-up since applicator enrollment in the cohort was 9.14 years. We used two permethrin exposure metrics: a) lifetime days applicators personally mixed or applied permethrin and b) intensity-weighted lifetime days (lifetime days weighted by estimated intensity of exposure). We used Poisson regression analysis to estimate relative risks (RRs) and 95% confidence intervals (CIs) for malignancies by tertiles of exposure.

Results
We found no associations between permethrin and all malignant neoplasms combined, or between permethrin and melanoma, non-Hodgkin lymphoma, leukemia, or cancers of the colon, rectum, lung, or prostate. We found elevated and statistically significant risks for multiple myeloma in the highest tertiles of both lifetime exposure-days (RR = 5.72; 95% CI, 2.76–11.87) and intensity-weighted lifetime exposure-days (RR = 5.01; 95% CI, 2.41–10.42), compared with applicators reporting they never used permethrin; these results are based on only 15 exposed cases. These findings were similar across a variety of alternative exposure metrics, exposure categories, and reference groups.

Conclusions
This study found no association with most cancers analyzed. Although the suggested association with multiple myeloma was based on a small number of cases, it warrants further evaluation.

Environ Health Perspect. 2009 Apr; 117(4): 581–586.
Published online 2008 Nov 10. doi: 10.1289/ehp.11318"

 

[linkster]

FYI, link to previous post.

¡Buena suerte!

 

[Caminolou]

Conclusions
This study found no association with most cancers analyzed. Although the suggested association with multiple myeloma was based on a small number of cases, it warrants further evaluation.

Environ Health Perspect. 2009 Apr; 117(4): 581–586.
Published online 2008 Nov 10. doi: 10.1289/ehp.11318"

Publication of articles in Environmental Health Perspectives does not indicate that the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences condones, endorses, approves, or recommends the use of any products, services, materials, methodology, or policies stated therein. Conclusions and opinions are those of the individual authors and advertisers only and do not necessarily reflect the policies or views of Environmental Health Perspectives or the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences.

As I say, banned in the Netherlands

 

[Deleted member 67185]

I am a bit concerned bed bugs and from reading some posts it is suggested treating your sleeping bag and bed sheet with permethrin. I have seen various sprays for sale that contain this but not a liquid form that you could add to a wash. Any suggestions?

For bedbugs and most insects, Permethrin is an insecticide, it is NOT a repellent. You can douse your surrounding environment and clothing until it is damp with a fresh application of Permethrin, and it will not stop a bedbug from targeting and biting you for its blood meal. The bedbug -- if it hasn't developed a tolerance to Permethrin -- will die . . but not before it bites.

Whether one is bitten depends on a number of factors including: one's proximity to bedbugs, their need for a meal, and the bedbug's choice from a buffet of bodies which diverts a bedbug away from you.

There are folks who use Permethrin and do not get bedbug bites, but this matches the experience of those who do not use Permethrin and are also not bitten.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Publication of articles in Environmental Health Perspectives does not indicate that the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences condones, endorses, approves, or recommends the use of any products, services, materials, methodology, or policies stated therein. Conclusions and opinions are those of the individual authors and advertisers only and do not necessarily reflect the policies or views of Environmental Health Perspectives or the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences.

As I say, banned in the Netherlands

???? I fail to see the connection between the quotation from the publication, and Permethrin being banned in the Netherlands.

All publications and journals of scientific articles and studies will have that sort of language. It is only intended to identify a neutral editorial position with regard to that publication's content. It is a reminder that the journal or publication itself is neither paying for, or sponsoring, or conducting the research or studies which are identified in the articles it is publishing.

In other words, such language is not a message questioning the validity of its articles. But, since these types of publications want to preserve their credibility as a good source for papers and studies to undergo peer review, they try to separate the junk science from that which appears to use reasonable methodologies.

 

[dougfitz]

As I say, banned in the Netherlands

Really? I have found three permethrin based medicinal products approved for human use by the Medicines Evaluation Board of the Netherlands, and fifty-six products approved for animal use. Perhaps you should deal in facts, rather than the scaremongering you have been engaged so far. The product may not be approved for certain types of use - what are they? Because clearly it isn't banned completely.

Yes, permethrin is a poison, but it is not poisonous to humans at the levels of exposure one would have coming into contact with permethrin treated clothing or equipment. Follow the directions and avoid contact with the moist areas of your body. So don't kiss a bedbug that has already walked across a permethrin treated sleeping bag! And if you treat your sleeping bag, wear untreated sleepwear or underwear.

Yes, special care is needed during the application of this, and many other chemicals, to clothing and equipment. This is both for your own protection, and for the environment. Again, follow the directions provided by the manufacturer.

 

[Caminolou]

Really? I have found three permethrin based medicinal products approved for human use by the Medicines Evaluation Board of the Netherlands, and fifty-six products approved for animal use. Perhaps you should deal in facts, rather than the scaremongering you have been engaged so far. The product may not be approved for certain types of use - what are they? Because clearly it isn't banned completely.

Yes, permethrin is a poison, but it is not poisonous to humans at the levels of exposure one would have coming into contact with permethrin treated clothing or equipment. Follow the directions and avoid contact with the moist areas of your body. So don't kiss a bedbug that has already walked across a permethrin treated sleeping bag! And if you treat your sleeping bag, wear untreated sleepwear

To treat scabbies, its actually 2 you found (2 are the same) and lice. I can understand that for highly contagious and acute infections with parasites and with short exposure. Not preventive.

Several years ago the army needed special permission to treat uniforms with permethrin for soldiers being sent abroad (Im ex army) These are exceptions. For broad use it is banned. If the army is reluctant in using it and is only using it in very special situations you have me worried. We also use uranium in hospitals. You cant throw a block in your sleeping bag however (probably would be effective).

Scaremongering? like DDT was used in the past, no problem, cover yourself in it, breath some in and no more lice or mosquito bites. Your kids might be born with defects but the effects are not imediate. I am not saying this will be the same but I personally dont want to sleep in it for 6 weeks. Its a nerve agent.

But feel free. If you embrace the stuff go ahead. Down here we are advised not to. Just my opinion.

 

[Caminolou]

???? I fail to see the connection between the quotation from the publication, and Permethrin being banned in the Netherlands.
In other words, such language is not a message questioning the validity of its articles. But, since these types of publications want to preserve their credibility as a good source for papers and studies to undergo peer review, they try to separate the junk science from that which appears to use reasonable methodologies.

Have you seen a peer review? Or even a final conclusion? Who did the research? I find disclaimers like that disturbing.

 

[Caminolou]

About the use on animals, to treat ticks on dogs and catle as they can spread Lyme disease. Some medicine is destructive to the body but better then the actual infection such as with Worms etc, you get really sick eating it but the parasites might kill you. We are talking about impregnating a sleeping bag. Lets keep it leveled. Im not even sure if my tongue rolls out when I sleep, could be licking my bag when having a good dream

 

[Deleted member 67185]

To treat scabbies, its actually 2 you found (2 are the same) and lice. I can understand that for highly contagious infections with parasites and with short exposure.

Several years ago the army needed special permission to treat uniforms with permethrin for soldiers being sent abroad (Im ex army) These are exceptions. For broad use it is banned. If the army is reluctant in using it and is only using it in very special situations you have me worried. We also use uranium in hospitals. You cant throw a block in your sleeping bag however (probably would be effective).

Scaremongering? like DDT was used in the past, no problem, cover yourself in it, breath some in and no more lice or mosquito bites. Your kids might be born with defects but the effects are not imediate. I am not saying this will be the same but I personally dont want to sleep in it for 6 weeks. Its a nerve agent.

But feel free. If you embrace the stuff go ahead. Down here we are advised not to. Just my opinion.

National policies regarding chemical use are often based more on political considerations and public perception than actual science. That is why I do not base my opinions on what a nation or country or state decides to do with the regulation -- including bans -- of chemicals or insecticides or . . . .

Scaremongering is defined broadly as a rhetorical tactic designed to spread alarm whether intentional or non intentional. An example of this in your last post is using DDT as an example of a bad thing. There were two things wrong with that example which could be considered 'scaremongering'.

1. The attempt to equate DDT to Permethrin. DDT has studies demonstrating enough potential for adverse effects in the environmental food chain as a persistent chemical once ingested, that there is no doubt about the concern as determined by scientific methodologies. Those same methodologies have not shown a similar concern with regard to Permethrin.

2. Your inference of a link of DDT to human birth defects, and then alluding to that as a potential risk for Permethrin use, albeit unknown at present. This is problematic because DDT was never demonstrated to be a teratogenic (birth defect causing) agent in humans in all of the relevant studies looking at this specific issue. Therefor, not only was the original analogy flawed, but with Permethrin and pyrethroids having undergone far greater examination and research than DDT, there is nothing at all similar between Permethrin and DDT.

Although you were being facetious about uranium, it again is an example of replacing scientifically sound information as the basis of rational decision making, with scaremongering rhetoric.

Personal opinion and preference and perception cannot and should not be used as a replacement for facts with regard to decision making and policies, although that is frequently the case on everything from fluoride in public water supplies to immunizations to caffeine.

Personal opinions are a part and parcel to things which are purely subjective. . . like what the best backpack or shoe is. While there are objective criteria by which one can evaluate such things, how these thing 'feel' and 'perform' and are 'usable' are dependent on unmeasurable factors based on personal preference.

Objectively measurable characteristics and performance for things like Permethrin have facts which can inform decision making. Far less useful is personal opinion and perception. I cannot evaluate either safety or efficacy based on people or political policy stating that an item is 'thought' to be dangerous or safe. That is a conclusion. It is vital to know upon what basis that such a conclusion is reached.

And that is why facts and science matter in these cases, and why hearsay, rhetorical hyperbole, and scaremongering do not.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Have you seen a peer review? Or even a final conclusion? Who did the research? I find disclaimers like that disturbing.

I think you are misunderstanding what these journal and magazines are, like the one from which you quoted an editorial policy statement.

Scientific journals are not research organs; they only publish those research papers and studies submitted to them by authors. They are a compiler, not an originator. These publications are merely content providers, they are not researchers or research organizations.

These journals are a vehicle by which other scientists and specialists -- the PEERS -- can have access to studies and research by independent scientists. Scientific and medical journals are one vehicle which allows access to the papers it publishes so that other scientist can see them and are then able to do a 'peer review'. Otherwise, without these journals publishing someone's research, how would other scientist find these studies? Wait for the once yearly meeting of immunoligists to listen to researchers talk about there papers?

Nowadays, instead of a hard published copy of Scientific American or Lancet or JAMA, these magazines and Journals also have a website presence. Instead of waiting a month for a new journal subscription to arrive, immunologists can go online to JAMA and see what new studies have been published.

Scientific journals and magazines do not create research, no more than a planning group putting together a convention for immunologists creates studies of the immune system.

 

[gerardcarey]

A little knowledge does indeed appear to be a dangerous thing.
Incomplete and uninformed, even more so.
Gerard

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Have you seen a peer review? Or even a final conclusion? Who did the research? I find disclaimers like that disturbing.

Yes, lots of them. It was part of my job to read the studies published within journals, which would then lead to reading the evaluations of said studies or research by others working within the same discipline as the published authors.

When you said 'Who did the research?', that tells me that rather than the examining the facts and evidence, it is the politics which play an important role in determining the validity of a finding. That is a scaremongering tactic designed to discount research NOT based on content, but based on bias. If, for example, I find out that Hershey's Chocolate is helping to fund research into the role of cocoa as an effective athletic supplement, I do not drop the Journal containing the published article like a hot potato.

I will look for bias and perhaps more carefully scrutinize the methodologies used in arriving at a conclusion, but it is the facts which are important, not whether Hershey's helped provide the funding.

 

[Caminolou]

As I mentioned before, do your thing. In case of toxines I prefer guilty untill proven innocent. Im no expert like all of you guys. But Im cautious.

Permethrin General Fact Sheet

 

[Caminolou]

A little knowledge does indeed appear to be a dangerous thing.
Incomplete and uninformed, even more so.
Gerard

Thanks!

6 Neurotoxicity of Permethrin - Health Effects of Permethrin-Impregnated Army Battle-Dress Uniforms - NCBI Bookshelf

RECOMMENDATIONS
Animal data clearly demonstrate the neurotoxic properties of permethrin; however, human data are lacking and need to be substantiated in epidemiological or case studies. The subcommittee recommends that data should be collected on neurotoxicity of permethrin in humans from epidemiological studies of workers or from studies of accidental human exposures.

 

[Caminolou]

Might sound safe enough for you but ill decline, thank you.

 

[Deleted member 67185]

Might sound safe enough for you but ill decline, thank you.

I am not criticizing your decision, as that is a personal preference. But I have to be critical of cherry picking through the data in order to support a position. The Conclusion to the paper does NOT suggest that there are or will be ill effects in humans, or even animals at normal dose levels appropriate for treatment.

First of all, this was a study to determine what the effects might be if there is exposure to very high concentrations of Permethrin.

What the Conclusion states in the paper is what is already known: that on-going studies should be continued as it is rare for humans to be exposed to the concentrations of this chemical as was purposefully done to rats. It did NOT conclude that effects on humans are unknown at normal recommended concentrations. In fact, an important part of the article which was left out stated this:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Permethrin is neurotoxic in animals at high doses. The neurotoxic symptoms of pyrethroid toxicity in humans appear to mimic those observed in animals. The estimated NOEL for neurotoxicity in rats by dermal route is 200 mg/kg (Robinson, 1989a). In the committee's judgment, 125 mg/kg is the LOAEL for permethrin from oral exposure in rats (Glaister et al., 1977; ICI, 1984).

Based on a NOAEL of 200 mg/kg per day from the available neuro toxicity data, the margin of safety (MOS) associated with daily human exposure to permethrin from permethrin-treated BDUs at a level of 6.8 × 10 −5 mg/kg per day is approximately 3 million.

Because the daily lifetime dose for garment workers (3 × 10 −5 mg/kg per day) is less than the daily dose for military personnel, the MOS for garment workers is even higher—6.8 million.

Therefore, neurotoxicity that could result from wearing permethrin-impregnated BDUs or working with treated fabric should not be a concern."
(The bold lettering was added by me)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

In other words, toxicity does not occur under recommended concentrations for use. It is also important to note that using Permethrin, as directed, with consumer products like Sawyer's, the level of concentration for exposure is even less than on the military BDU (fatigues).

 

[jpflavin1]

Therefore, neurotoxicity that could result from wearing permethrin-impregnated BDUs or working with treated fabric should not be a concern.

This is the sentence right above the recommendation.

 

[Caminolou]

Alright, in low doses the risks are little.

 

[Anamiri]

They key thing for me though is to treat my pack in case of hitchhikers, I really dont want to take them home with me.

 

[dougfitz]

permethrin is banned in my country.

As I say, banned in the Netherlands

To treat scabbies, its actually 2 you found (2 are the same) and lice.

So let me understand where we are at here. I demonstrated that your blanket assertion that permethrin is banned in the Netherlands was false, and you now want to quibble over whether there are two or three products allowed for human use? Lets just accept that its not banned, but it may not be approved for all the uses which might be available in other jurisdictions.

Scaremongering? like DDT was used in the past, no problem, cover yourself in it, breath some in and no more lice or mosquito bites. Your kids might be born with defects but the effects are not imediate. I am not saying this will be the same but I personally dont want to sleep in it for 6 weeks. Its a nerve agent.

Yes, scaremongering, and you are doing it again here. Your decision to not use this product is perfectly reasonable. No-one is forcing you to use it. But lets not pretend that it is based on a well formed understanding of the product safety issues involved, because clearly it isn't.

Let me reiterate:

1. Yes, permethrin is a poison, but it is not poisonous to humans at the levels of exposure one would have coming into contact with permethrin treated clothing or equipment.
2. Yes, special care is needed during the application of this product to clothing and equipment. This is both for your own protection, and for the environment.
3. Follow the directions provided by the manufacturer.

 

[Roland49]

Hello there,

<pmfji>
Permethrin is poisonous for humans, that is a fact.
But it is much more poisonous for insects, i.e. scabies.

Last year I had a scabies infestation, brought back by a student from his land of vacation (a single contact was enough), that was treated with a balm containing Permethrin. You have to rub your whole body ONCE to kill all scabies. The Instructions clearly warned: do not use a Permethrin-based product within the next 4 weeks.

It's just an assessment of risks and benefits.
I prefer to sleep in a liner not covered with Permethrin.

Roland
Buen Camino!

 

[GraemeHall]

Just to respond humbly to the OP, in 35 days on CF plus Muxiá and Finisterre last year I slept in a cotton/silk blend liner and my sleeping bag, and often albergue blankets, never sprayed with anything and had no bed bug encounters.
Maybe I was lucky.

 

[Caminolou]

So let me understand where we are at here. I demonstrated that your blanket assertion that permethrin is banned in the Netherlands was false, and you now want to quibble over whether there are two or three products allowed for human use? Lets just accept that its not banned, but it may not be approved for all the uses which might be available in other jurisdictions.


Yes, scaremongering, and you are doing it again here. Your decision to not use this product is perfectly reasonable. No-one is forcing you to use it. But lets not pretend that it is based on a well formed understanding of the product safety issues involved, because clearly it isn't.

Let me reiterate:

1. Yes, permethrin is a poison, but it is not poisonous to humans at the levels of exposure one would have coming into contact with permethrin treated clothing or equipment.
2. Yes, special care is needed during the application of this product to clothing and equipment. This is both for your own protection, and for the environment.
3. Follow the directions provided by the manufacturer.

You cant let it go can you? You are so right Sir, from now on Ill drink a bottle for breakfast. You have me convinced. Im sure you are also a star in mathematics, with over 300.000 pilgrims a year, how much poison do you think we need to impregnate all sleepingbags? Just for preventing a possible bedbug bite, maybe because its not all that effective. Thats retorical by the way, please dont answer This conversation has sanded in bla bla look at me being wise. People read this and will say, Hey its not that bad, Lets do it. I opose to that, i’d rather have them use the crap when really needed and there really is no alternative. That was the point I was trying to make, nothing more. Sorry for my bad examples. Take care.

 

[J F Gregory]

We purchased a small spray bottle some where in SJPdP, I don't remember where that we sprayed on the mattresses and pillows provided unless they provided paper sheets. For some reason bedbugs don't like silk liners which we slept in. At least that is what I have been told.

 

[Steelnothing]

A good way of getting rid of stowaways in your kit. Is to put it all in the chest freezer when you get home.

 

[Steelnothing]

A good way of getting rid of stowaways in your kit. Is to put it all in the chest freezer when you get home.

 

[trecile]

A good way of getting rid of stowaways in your kit. Is to put it all in the chest freezer when you get home.

That would require that one has a chest freezer.

 

[jpflavin1]

Hello there,

<pmfji>
Permethrin is poisonous for humans, that is a fact.
But it is much more poisonous for insects, i.e. scabies.

Last year I had a scabies infestation, brought back by a student from his land of vacation (a single contact was enough), that was treated with a balm containing Permethrin. You have to rub your whole body ONCE to kill all scabies. The Instructions clearly warned: do not use a Permethrin-based product within the next 4 weeks.

It's just an assessment of risks and benefits.
I prefer to sleep in a liner not covered with Permethrin.

Roland
Buen Camino!

Personal choice is each individuals decision. That said, spraying backpack and outside of sleeping bag prior to Camino is very different that rubbing a Permethrin product over your entire body.

No one is suggesting you rub Permethrin on your body, just on items mentioned above to reduce chance of bites and transportation of bugs.

Your example, imo, is a bit out of context with the question asked.

Regards,
Joe

 

[Caminolou]

In the end its like taking a shit in the forrest. Doesnt matter, leave a paper wipe, nature will handle it. Do it 300.000 times in a year and everyones camino will be shit. Thats just a dump we are talking about not a nerve agent. Im looking forward seeing the flowers and fruittrees that will start to bloom in spring. Spray 300.000 bottles of permethrin arround and there might be not 1 bee available to make this happen. People rely on chemical solutions way to much. Let it go, face the dragon. Or a freaking tiny bug in this case. I met a thousand people on my way, just 1 got kissed by a bug. There are better ways. Maybe less handy but better. Peace peregrinos. Buen camino.

 

[Tincatinker]

I'm closing this thread. The arguments have been rehearsed in many similar. The OP's question hasn't really been answered. By the way Permethrin is not applied in a wash unless you are a fabric manufacturer.

Meanwhile, the trenches have been dug and the opposing forces can exchange random quotations from the internet with a profound sense of neo-biblical righteousness and lob in the occasional "personally" whenever the battle isn't, quite, going their Way.

Members will be minded to follow the guidance issued by manufacturers, Public Health departments, Pharmacists and Governments rather than that of random individuals with a key-board and an internet connection.

Buen Camino, sin cinches.

Edit: I'm advised by a reliable source that the most common product for treating fabric with Permethrin in Australia is a wash. Members will be minded to follow the guidance issued by manufacturers, Public Health departments, Pharmacists and Governments rather than that of random individuals with a key-board and an internet connection.