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Places to avoid

Tatiana B

New Member
Time of past OR future Camino
Starting Camino Frances June 2015
Starting our first Camino in June 2015 with our kids (17, 16, and 8) - would like to avoid filthy/not well taken care off places... would like advice of places to avoid. We are doing the Camino Frances starting at SJPP. Thank you!
 
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The only place I've consistently warned people to avoid is the albergue at Hornillos - the one at the church with the chicken on the post.

It has been filthy and full of bedbugs each and every time I've stopped there (and I've moved on every time).

Unless it has drastically changed in the past year, I will continue to avoid it.
I just walk on to San Bol - a lovely place.
 
Hornillos del Camino has other albergues besides the municipal. There are also two private ones that are nice, and a pensiones as well. I certainly wouldn't avoid staying in the town based on the bad reputation of one albergue there.
cheers
 
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I would observe that in many cases, hospitaleros, like pilgrims, are going to move on. If one set of hospitaleros is not keeping a place clean and tidy, the next set might. Permanent hospitaleros are human too. So I always contemplate that in the same way that I can have a bad day, so I shouldn't presume that an albergue is always going to be as good as it was when I stayed, nor as bad as I found it at the time.

That said, if those who are multiple camino offenders have observed a pattern, then there might be systemic issues, and you might want to avoid those places if you can.
 
Hornillos del Camino has other albergues besides the municipal. There are also two private ones that are nice, and a pensiones as well. I certainly wouldn't avoid staying in the town based on the bad reputation of one albergue there.
cheers

Yes, I agree.
I have never stayed in the other places so I'm sure they're fine.
I just happen to dislike that particular one at the church.
I've stopped there several times and found bedbugs each time.
And...I love San Bol :)
 
The only place I've consistently warned people to avoid is the albergue at Hornillos - the one at the church with the chicken on the post.

It has been filthy and full of bedbugs each and every time I've stopped there (and I've moved on every time).

Unless it has drastically changed in the past year, I will continue to avoid it.
I just walk on to San Bol - a lovely place.


Hornillos municipal albergue appears to be very different nowadays. It is getting excellent reports on caminodesantiago.consumer.es

http://caminodesantiago.consumer.es/albergue-de-hornillos-del-camino

El Alfar albergue in Hornillos is absolotely superb, with a lovely garden, spotless facilities, fabulous home cooked paella and very friendly owners.
 
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Starting our first Camino in June 2015 with our kids (17, 16, and 8) - would like to avoid filthy/not well taken care off places... would like advice of places to avoid. We are doing the Camino Frances starting at SJPP. Thank you!


There aren't many of these types of places left (and personally, I like the simpler places ), but I guess you could possibly add Tomas Martinez's Manjarin and Jesus Jato's Ave Fenix to your list. Though if you don't mind 'roughing it' for a night, you'd get a grand experience and insight into how past pilgrims fared.
 
One of three detested places that I endured on my Camino is a favorite of most people. Yes, MOST. It just didn't work for me. The other two on my list are favored by some and I went out of my way to access one of them because a friend had highly recommended it. Whether or not a person will or will not like a certain place is such a personal choice, that I couldn't possibly advise. In fact I think making up your own mind as you near an option is better than preconceived notions anyway. Had I not allowed myself to have been influenced by others recommendations I would have known those stops weren't for me.
 
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The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
he only place I've consistently warned people to avoid is the albergue at Hornillos - the one at the church with the chicken on the post.

It has been filthy and full of bedbugs each and every time I've stopped there (and I've moved on every time).

Unless it has drastically changed in the past year, I will continue to avoid it.
Not my experience at all, Annie, so perhaps change has happened! I had a wonderful night in the Hornillos municipal this last March. It was clean as a whistle, and not a bedbug in sight.
 
Last year I stayed in an Albergue that had been on many people's "warning list". It was very "basic", but I had one of the most memorable (in a favorable way) experiences of my whole Camino in that place.
 
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Not my experience at all, Annie, so perhaps change has happened! I had a wonderful night in the Hornillos municipal this last March. It was clean as a whistle, and not a bedbug in sight.

I know this is true. I've stayed at places that other people hated, and I loved them.
Part of it depends on the hospitalero/a that happens to be there when you are there.
Part depends on the pilgrims you are sharing with.
And a large part probably depends on what kind of a day you're having.

I'll try Hornillos again.
 
Thank you so much this is really great! I am a bit nervous traveling with the kids and hubby (party of 5) and thinking if I need to make reservations or not? Can I do them from the states or do I have to make then in Spain? If I do then during el Camino won't it interfere with it?
 
Thank you so much this is really great! I am a bit nervous traveling with the kids and hubby (party of 5) and thinking if I need to make reservations or not? Can I do them from the states or do I have to make then in Spain? If I do then during el Camino won't it interfere with it?
To reserve, you would have to stay in private rather than municipal accommodations. It will not interfere with your Camino to make them as you walk. Booking.com is helpful as is asking the clerk where you stay to call ahead for you. I would suggest that you book for a night in SJPP and in Orisson (if interested in that route and stop). before you leave home tho.
 
The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
Tatiana B,

If you wish to book accommodation you can certainly reserve from home before setting out. However many pilgrims who do reserve find booking once on the trail is better for than you have an idea of your strength and where you will be/can be in 48 hours.

Do be aware however that only private albergues take reservations, most municipal and parrish albergues do not.

For a handy on line list of possible accommodation including both albergues and hotels see the Gronze web site.

Buen camino!

MM
 
Changing albergues...the worst place ever that I have stayed must be the so called Pilgrims' Pavillion Os Chacotes just before Palas de Rei, modern, purposely built to shelter pilgrims, beds clean and free of unwanted creatures and pilgrims packed in like cordwood, unbearable noise, confusion, and discomfort, far too many people in a large overcrowded space.
 
One of three detested places that I endured on my Camino is a favorite of most people. Yes, MOST. It just didn't work for me.

That happened to me too. When I commented that I had had a negative experience at one particular place, I was immediately shot down, and soundly told off, for daring to say such a thing. So, sadly, I cannot now suggest places that I would avoid, in case I upset people again.
 
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Depends on the hospitalero's attitude and mood that day but I would probably avoid El Putzu at the entrance to Boadilla del Camino if I was that way again. However thinking back on my experience I was told something by his assistant about the San Xil into Sarria, which nearly 2 weeks later led to a very special experience. So I would say not to stay there but also if you do its ok, they all have something to offer in their own way.
 
Apart from the issue of different hospitaleros, isn't this also a matter of 'One man's meat is another man's poison'?
Hence the experiences of Cher & Jill.
Obviously, this is not much help to you, Tatiana as you try to cater for your family's accommodation. And sorry, I can't advise because I've not yet set foot on the Camino, but think that at the end of the day it might be a question of potluck? Although since you're walking in June, at least there'll be a larger selection of open albergues (as opposed to late autumn/ winter) & the summer crowds will not have hit their peak.
Either way, Buen Camino to you and your family, Tatiana. I only wish I'd known about the Camino when my children were teenagers, would have loved to have taken them.
Suzanne :)
 
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
Every shrub and bush on the south side of the Sierra de Pedron?
 
Starting our first Camino in June 2015 with our kids (17, 16, and 8) - would like to avoid filthy/not well taken care off places... would like advice of places to avoid. We are doing the Camino Frances starting at SJPP. Thank you!

With reference to John Brierley's Camino Frances Guide, 9th Edition, published 2013, page 129, Albergue La Hutte, where I've now stayed twice, but my 2014 stay was more than disappointing when a demented raging out of control woman, screaming in what sounded to me like French and not Spanish. threw my semi-dry clothes on the floor from where after it had started to rain I had hung them after bringing them inside the Albergue. I restrained my impulse to deliberately rip her throat from her neck and learned afterwards that apparently she was an owner of the Hotel/Albergue La Hutte. This place is not worthy of being included in anybody's guide as providing worthy accommodation, but rather all pilgrims should be warned away.

There's another one, two days out from Santiago on the Camino Francis, a Municipal Albergue which I will have to look up the details, very picturesque by a stream, but without any effective management, locking of doors with being next to a bar that facilitated many partying and drunken 'pilgrims' coming noisily back to the Albergue and waking up everyone else.

Notwithstanding, a recommendation, page 246, Albergue International, in Sarria, which I rate as among the best of albergues which I've enjoyed. The premises were clean and well maintained and the proprietress and her nephew were most accommodating, trying very hard to please a tired and grumpy old man after a long walk in the early October rain. I concluded that their efforts were very deserving of more notice, as the albergue was not very full. As the only one dining there enjoying an excellent generously sized meal, I couldn't understand why other pilgrims went elsewhere for their evening meal. Apparently the Albergue International wasn't widely known to the "Gucci" crowds starting their Camino from Sarria.
 
@Old Koot did you discover what had upset the hospitalera at albergue La Hutte? I cannot imagine that the reaction that you describe would have been without reason. I know a few places where I was asked not to hang wet laundry in the dormitory or common areas, and I can imagine that doing so in a private albergue might not have been well tolerated.

The next albergue you refer to is, I suspect, the Xunta albergue at Ribadiso, a delightfully restored pilgrim hospital. I think the issue is more the layout of the buildings on the site, clearly that wasn't something that modern management could do much about. I stayed there and found the same thing as you, that there were a few post midnight returns and associated noise. I would hesitate to blame the management for what was clearly a limitation of the buildings themselves.
 
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St James' Way - Self-guided 4-7 day Walking Packages, Reading to Southampton, 110 kms
Try as I may, I cannot say which albergues to avoid... We only stay ONE night, even having one bad experience on that night doesn't mean anything, the hospitalero/a may just be exhausted/having a bad day! Finding a bathroom dirty might just mean that the pilgrims of the day left it like that, after all there are mops left around for you to clear your mess... There may be a bunch of objectionable pilgrims who talk loudly in their mobiles during the night (!) or shout to each other whilst they get ready at dawn...You don't get any sleep and the albergue isn't a particularly good memory but it'll be different the following day. :)
 
Try as I may, I cannot say which albergues to avoid... We only stay ONE night, even having one bad experience on that night doesn't mean anything, the hospitalero/a may just be exhausted/having a bad day!

It always amuses me when a rude person's behaviour is excused by them 'having a bad day." I don't care how bad a person's day is, as an owner of an albergue they have an example to uphold and should really have a better temperament. It's not normal to scream at a pilgrim over their washing. All she had to do was politely get the point across another way.
 
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It always amuses me when a rude person's behaviour is excused by them 'having a bad day." I don't care how bad a person's day is, as an owner of an albergue they have an example to uphold and should really have a better temperament. It's not normal to scream at a pilgrim over their washing. All she had to do was politely get the point across another way.

I get your point, I was only answering the 1st post in the thread, I should have quoted :)
 
The first edition came out in 2003 and has become the go-to-guide for many pilgrims over the years. It is shipping with a Pilgrim Passport (Credential) from the cathedral in Santiago de Compostela.
I don't care how bad a person's day is, as an owner of an albergue they have an example to uphold and should really have a better temperament.
What an interesting concept. Where does this obligation to provide an example come from?

You are running a business, and someone drapes their wet laundry all over your furniture and fittings. How is that reasonable behaviour? Two wrongs might not make a right here, but I am not sure I wouldn't be seeing it the albergue owner's way if they had equal say about what might have happened.

Which is part of the problem with a thread like this, and that is that there is little opportunity for those running an albergue that is criticised here to respond. It is intrinsically unfair not to have both points of view on the table when some of the harsh criticism already meted out is raised.
 
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What an interesting concept. Where does this obligation to provide an example come from?

You are running a business, and someone drapes their wet laundry all over your furniture and fittings. How is that reasonable behaviour? Two wrongs might not make a right here, but I am not sure I wouldn't be seeing it the albergue owner's way if they had equal say about what might have happened.

Which is part of the problem with a thread like this, and that is that there is little opportunity for those running an albergue that is criticised here to respond. It is intrinsically unfair not to have both points of view on the table when some of the harsh criticism already meted out is raised.
I totally agree Doug, it is so easy for one person to trash some place on this site and destroy a hard working business with negative comments. (There sound be a DO NOT LIKE button somewhere to respond to these scurrilous comments.)
Too many pilgrims consider the accommodations they stay in like hotels/motels they might spend a night in driving along a motorway. Realizing most of the rooms are part of a private family residence, respect the space like you would staying with family members during a holiday. Help by cleaning up the mess in the showers, even if it isn't yours, hang your clothes on a line outdoors and if no line is available bring one with you, etc, etc, .......my rant is done!
 
I've stayed in some 'not so good' places that made me really appreciate the better ones that thankfully always followed. A bad night here and there is no big deal.

My only regret was stopping in San Justo rather than walking the extra few kms to Astorga. We were very tired after walking from Villar de Mazarife and it seemed like a good idea to stop walking. It wasn't! There were very few pilgrims and it didn't feel as though we were still on the Camino. However, we set off very early the next morning and stopped for a great breakfast in Murias. This, followed by a stop at the Cowboy Bar and a great evening in Rabanal made it all OK. But I would still never stay in San Justo again!
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
Regarding the hanging of wet clothes, I had an American man in one of my groups that not only hung his wet raincoat from precious antique farm implements in a casa rural, but then built a HUGE fire in the fireplace, then went to bed, leaving the maid and owner frantically putting the fire out around midnight.

Sometimes the problem is the pilgrim, not the owner.
And I imagine they meet some pretty rude pilgrims.
I have.

Of course, that's no excuse for throwing people's clothes on the ground.
But I have to wonder why she did it? And if there was some language barrier issue?
 
I agree that it wouldn't be much fun to be yelled at, for any reason. Apart from that, there was only one time I recall receiving a not too warm welcome at an albergue/bar. We had booked in advance and I had taken a taxi, for reasons too complicated to explain here, while my companions walked. The hospitalero was decidedly grumpy, but I put it down to my having arrived earlier than the time pilgrims are expected to arrive - it was early afternoon - and perhaps it was still too soon in the day for him to be personable. He gave me the key to my room and, after settling in, I bought a drink from the hospitalero (still grumpy) and then basically made myself scarce. There was nothing to do in that quiet little village save for sitting in the sun, enjoying the view, watching the slow movements of the farmers and their cows, and observing the local dogs exercise their self-imposed dog hierarchy. I would stay again at that albergue in a heartbeat.
 
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:D Was only kiddin'
I had considered it to 'give back' something to the Camino, but ... I don't think I'd have the patience to deal with - as you say - demanding pilgrims. I aren't nice enough, ... yet .
 
Not even on my weakest days!! It is WORK. Can you imagine being nice to demanding pilgrims every day? If you can't, hospitalero work is the wrong work. I would rather teach music to third graders. :D
On my first Camino I played hospitalero for about two hours while the young lady who volunteered there went to have lunch and a siesta. It was interesting and I got to stamp a few credentials, but I was glad when she came back. I didn't like it when pilgrims crowd around the desk. I mean, c'mon. Get in a queue and one at a time. We all learned to that since elementary school.
 
What an interesting concept. Where does this obligation to provide an example come from?

You are running a business, and someone drapes their wet laundry all over your furniture and fittings. How is that reasonable behaviour? Two wrongs might not make a right here, but I am not sure I wouldn't be seeing it the albergue owner's way if they had equal say about what might have happened.

Which is part of the problem with a thread like this, and that is that there is little opportunity for those running an albergue that is criticised here to respond. It is intrinsically unfair not to have both points of view on the table when some of the harsh criticism already meted out is raised.

If you are in the hospitality industry, be it an albergue or a hotel, you should have an obligation to keep your temper in check. I can totally understand it would be annoying if a pilgrim did this (if this is how it happened, of course) and running an albergue would be a far from easy job, but I don't get the screaming issue at all. Like I said, there are better ways of getting your point across. I saw plenty of good examples of this on my recent Camino....and it wasn't only wet washing that was the problem.
 
The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
I totally agree Doug, it is so easy for one person to trash some place on this site and destroy a hard working business with negative comments. (There sound be a DO NOT LIKE button somewhere to respond to these scurrilous comments

It was one pilgrim's experience. I highly doubt the albergue will shut down completely based on this. Lol!
 
I've stayed in some 'not so good' places that made me really appreciate the better ones that thankfully always followed. A bad night here and there is no big deal.

My only regret was stopping in San Justo rather than walking the extra few kms to Astorga. We were very tired after walking from Villar de Mazarife and it seemed like a good idea to stop walking. It wasn't! There were very few pilgrims and it didn't feel as though we were still on the Camino. However, we set off very early the next morning and stopped for a great breakfast in Murias. This, followed by a stop at the Cowboy Bar and a great evening in Rabanal made it all OK. But I would still never stay in San Justo again!
Where did you stayed in San Justo de la Vega?
Thanks.
 
I restrained my impulse to deliberately rip her throat from her neck and learned afterwards that apparently she was an owner of the Hotel/Albergue La Hutte.
Restraint is always admirable. I hope there were no vibrations of hostility escaping.

Albergue Internacional wants to sell, but has not been able to find a buyer. The restaurant is good, but it is a flop.
I don't get the screaming issue at all.
If that happened, I don't defend it. However, keep in mind that there is a different business model in Spain than the U.S. or Australia. Generally, a business is not run for the customers. It is run for the owners. Their attitude is "if you don't like it, leave." It is their life and their work, and it is what they offer. It is bizarro Burger King -- "Have it my way." The customer is not king, and he is not presumed to be right. It is an attitude that grates Americans, especially, but the Spanish business operators honestly don't care. They are proud of their businesses, and probably don't see that they sometimes drive customers away. If the wet clothes were not supposed to be hanging on the chairs, Ms. La Hutte (Ayala, actually) probably felt very justified in her actions. Her rules count, not a pilgrim's. For six Euros, she probably does not care if a particular pilgrim stays or not. ;)

http://www.milanuncios.com/venta-de-empresas/venta-hotel-y-albergue-en-atapuerca-128614447.htm#fotos
 
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If you are in the hospitality industry, be it an albergue or a hotel, you should have an obligation to keep your temper in check. I can totally understand it would be annoying if a pilgrim did this (if this is how it happened, of course) and running an albergue would be a far from easy job, but I don't get the screaming issue at all. Like I said, there are better ways of getting your point across. I saw plenty of good examples of this on my recent Camino....and it wasn't only wet washing that was the problem.
I would rather have both sides of this story before passing judgement.
 
Where did you stayed in San Justo de la Vega?
Thanks.

I'm not sure @KinkyOne. It was a small hostal (rooms above a bar) on the left hand side of the main road. There was nothing wrong with it - I think we just didn't like the location. I'm looking forward to staying in Astorga next time.
 
I'm not sure @KinkyOne. It was a small hostal (rooms above a bar) on the left hand side of the main road. There was nothing wrong with it - I think we just didn't like the location. I'm looking forward to staying in Astorga next time.
Yes, I remember the place because I was watching Football World Championship final match there last year in very funny/odd company:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...all-from-a-soon-to-be-first-time-walker.2909/ (posts #15-17)

I've stayes in San Javier in Astorga in 2011 and it was lovely experience that I can only recommend.
 
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Yes, I remember the place because I was watching Football World Championship final match there last year in very funny/odd company:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...all-from-a-soon-to-be-first-time-walker.2909/ (posts #15-17)

I've stayes in San Javier in Astorga in 2011 and it was lovely experience that I can only recommend.

I couldn't find that post @KinkyOne but I noticed your one about a Renault 4 (very off topic!). My dad had one and I have great memories of family holidays in that car. 4 kids in the back seat and we still found room for hitch hikers! I saw a beautifully preserved R4 in Molinaseca last year and sent Dad a photo for old times sake.
 
I couldn't find that post @KinkyOne but I noticed your one about a Renault 4 (very off topic!). My dad had one and I have great memories of family holidays in that car. 4 kids in the back seat and we still found room for hitch hikers! I saw a beautifully preserved R4 in Molinaseca last year and sent Dad a photo for old times sake.
Oh, sorry, that's the right one:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...k-from-sahagun-to-ponferrada-july-2014.29092/

R4 - my love :D
I've seen many of them in Spain and intend to collect photos of them. Legendary car no doubt, hahaha.
 
Realizing most of the rooms are part of a private family residence, respect the space like you would staying with family members during a holiday. Help by cleaning up the mess in the showers, even if it isn't yours, hang your clothes on a line outdoors and if no line is available bring one with you, etc, etc, .......my rant is done!
Here, here! Have to admit to a guilty start at the image of "a demented raging out of control woman screaming" in context which brought back memories of losing it with sons and their muddy football gear. How frustrating for the poor lady that her heartfelt tirade was completely lost on the offender.
 
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Yes, I remember the place because I was watching Football World Championship final match there last year in very funny/odd company:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...all-from-a-soon-to-be-first-time-walker.2909/ (posts #15-17)

I've stayes in San Javier in Astorga in 2011 and it was lovely experience that I can only recommend.


I loved my stay at Hostal Juli in San Justo de la Vega. Met up with a lovely couple from Holland whom I bumped into time to time....
Slept very well, food was very decent too.
And I liked the public library in that town : friendly librarian!
 
A selection of Camino Jewellery
Starting our first Camino in June 2015 with our kids (17, 16, and 8) - would like to avoid filthy/not well taken care off places... would like advice of places to avoid. We are doing the Camino Frances starting at SJPP. Thank you!

Tatiana B:

My recommendation would be not to worry about these things. Just go with the flow of the Camino and enjoy the wonderful journey you are about to embark on with your Family. Let the Camino be your guide and all will be well.

Ultreya,
Joe
 
Unless you like long queues for the very few available showers and toilets in the municipal in Vianna and the convent in Leon I'd avoid staying there. They are both lovely places to stay in their own right but too few facilities for my liking and I walked in the quieter months so I'd hate to think what the queues are like at 7am in the summer. To be honest though, I never found one albergue I hated, I just judged them by the number of toilets and showers. Having said that, the parish albergue in Bercianos del Real Camino only had one male shower and toilet and no hot water, if my memory serves me right and yet it was one of the loveliest places I stayed in. The Municipals I stayed in after Sarria tended not to have a curfew so every night I was woken by drunken pilgrims crashing their way through the dorms after midnight so that maybe something for you to consider. If I remember rightly, the Brierley guide recommends avoiding the large municipal albergue in Santiago but I thought it was a great place to stay and spotlessly clean.
For the money we pilgrims pay per night I don't think we can be too critical of the accommodation and it's usually the hospitalero and our fellow pilgrims that make an already good resting place into an unforgettable one. I agree with the post above, you're all going to have a great adventure and you can never hear the phrase 'Are we nearly there yet?' too often :D
 
Starting our first Camino in June 2015 with our kids (17, 16, and 8) - would like to avoid filthy/not well taken care off places... would like advice of places to avoid. We are doing the Camino Frances starting at SJPP. Thank you!

The worst one we stayed at was the 'free' albergue at Foncebedon. I've read several books about the Camino, and they also mentioned how bad that one is. Dirty and cramped.
 
St James' Way - Self-guided 4-7 day Walking Packages, Reading to Southampton, 110 kms
The worst one we stayed at was the 'free' albergue at Foncebedon. I've read several books about the Camino, and they also mentioned how bad that one is. Dirty and cramped.
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch nor a 'free' Albergue. Maybe a generous donativo would have helped the parish to buy a few cleaning products...
 
When I stayed there, it was newly remodeled, and the priest hospitalero was among the best. It probably depends who is volunteering. :)
That's why it is so unfair to condemn places, especially based on a one shot experience. It can depend upon who is volunteering and it can also depend upon the mood of the pilgrim that day.
 
St James' Way - Self-guided 4-7 day Walking Packages, Reading to Southampton, 110 kms
It's very much about the personal experience. That said, the municipal in Larrasonna was badly kept and municipal in Logrono was a bit of a squash when full. I plan to avoid those 2 when I walk again
 
Right now, I am in 'Meeting Point' Hornillos. It is a new Albergue, and the best I have stayed at yet...I started at Saint Jean.... It is v clean, the building is new and has a large yard with a lawn. I would stay here again.
 
That happened to me too. When I commented that I had had a negative experience at one particular place, I was immediately shot down, and soundly told off, for daring to say such a thing. So, sadly, I cannot now suggest places that I would avoid, in case I upset people again.
No-one should be scared of voicing an opinion - are you a bit sensitive dear. Constructive criticism can only advance a discussion, even if others disagree, and it's a fact of life that someone always will. Does that mean we should prefer to do nothing just in case?
 
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Sound comment @john07989 but the "dear" is patronising and unnecessary. We prefer to keep things mellow on this forum, even when we all disagree. @jsalt I've been soundly, and even deservedly, roughed up on this forum. Never stopped me posting: made me more careful about my language, careful to distinguish between opinion and fact, and I hope, sensitive to others sensitivities. Please never refrain from expressing fact or truly held opinion here. Just be prepared to duck :confused:
 
@jsalt, I caught the humor/satire in your comment when you made it in response to my May 19 comment. :):):) My first May 19 comment. Geez, I've been chatty on this thread.
 
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