• For 2024 Pilgrims: €50,- donation = 1 year with no ads on the forum + 90% off any 2024 Guide. More here.
    (Discount code sent to you by Private Message after your donation)

Search 69,459 Camino Questions

Police hampered in protecting us?

Kanga

Veteran Member
Time of past OR future Camino
Francés x 5, Le Puy x 2, Arles, Tours, Norte, Madrid, Via de la Plata, Portuguese, Primitivo
It is troubling when the police take no action when flashers are reported to them. As I understand it from a previous post by @peregrina2000 the Spanish criminal code does not have a charge for public masturbation per se. In Australia and many other countries it would be covered by charges of "indecency" or "assault" (which does not require touching, but is any deliberate action that puts another in immediate apprehension of danger - flashing is a "sexual assault").

If there is no adequate law it misses the point that this behaviour is done deliberately with the intention of causing distress and fear - good enough reason to protect citizens I think. Let alone the possibility of the behaviour being a precursor to actual physical attack.

Does anyone know more? Are there any moves to reform this lacuna?
 
Last edited:
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
It is troubling when the police take no action when flashers are reported to them. As I understand it from a previous post by @peregrina2000 the Spanish criminal code does not have a charge for public masturbation per se. In Australia and many other countries it would be covered by charges of "indecency" or "assault" (which does not require touching, but is any deliberate action that puts another in immediate apprehension of danger - flashing is a "sexual assault").

If there is no adequate law it misses the point that this behaviour is done deliberately with the intention of causing distress and fear - good enough reason to protect citizens I think. Let alone the possibility of the behaviour being a precursor to actual physical attack.

Does anyone know more? Are there any moves to reform this lacuna?

I don't know of any campaigns to change this law, but I would just add that inside the territory of many Spanish municipalities, it is a violation of local ordinance and is subject to a fine. I agree with you completely, Kanga, and my sense is that the focus is on the libertarian side of the equation and not the victim side of the equation.
 
Well, I guess the best place to start a campaign would be to get politicians interested. It would need a groundswell of support from business and citizens. Or the police themselves.
 
Ideal sleeping bag liner whether we want to add a thermal plus to our bag, or if we want to use it alone to sleep in shelters or hostels. Thanks to its mummy shape, it adapts perfectly to our body.

€46,-
For info about Spanish regulations about flashing this link (that I already provided on other thread) might be useful:

http://enocasionesveoreos.blogspot.com/2013/03/el-delito-de-exhibicionismo.html

In short: it can be a crime only if there are minors or handicapped people needed of special protection seeing it.

I would just add that inside the territory of many Spanish municipalities, it is a violation of local ordinance and is subject to a fine.

I know about local ordinances forbidding nudism (usually they are appealed to court by nudism associations). I know about local ordinances forbidding (public) prostitution. But I don't know about local ordinances forbidding flashing and public masturbation although I'm not an expert on the subject so they might exist.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It surprises me. You'd think there would be pressure from sexual victims support groups.
 
Down bag (90/10 duvet) of 700 fills with 180 g (6.34 ounces) of filling. Mummy-shaped structure, ideal when you are looking for lightness with great heating performance.

€149,-
@Anniesantiago nudity or masturbation are not a problem. Its the deliberate targeting of vulnerable people (and it can be children, or men, as well as women) in order to "freak them out" as you say. That, imo, should be the test of whether the behaviour is lawful or not.
 
Down bag (90/10 duvet) of 700 fills with 180 g (6.34 ounces) of filling. Mummy-shaped structure, ideal when you are looking for lightness with great heating performance.

€149,-
Maybe Spaniards aren't as shocked at nudity as some of us are.

In Spain, people is less shocked about nudity than in other countries. It should also be remembered that nudity is considered by the European Court of Human Rights a form of self-expression (or so I think).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
No, I'm not concerned with nudity. I've played beach volleyball on a nudist beach. It was fun. Nothing wrong with plain old ordinary masturbation either. There is a big difference between those and and deliberately intimidating or offensive sexual behaviour.
 
Who is talking about nudity? I've played beach volleyball on a nudist beach. It was fun. Nothing wrong with plain old ordinary masturbation either.
There is a huge difference between those and and deliberately offensive sexual behaviour.

Nudity itself is considered offensive in some countries. OTOH, under certain circunstances, public masturbation isn't considered offensive in some countries. Cultural differences, I guess. What's deliberately offensive sexual behaviour? I guess it depends on who you ask. Spanish law considers the following sexual crimes (I'm not a lawyer so the list might be incomplete): sexual assault, sexual abuses, sexual harassment, flashing, prostitution, sexual exploitation and corruption of minors (I'm not sure if this literal translation into English is the right one). In the case of flashing, it's considered a crime just if it's made in front of minors or handicapped people needed of special protection. Why isn't it a crime if made in front of adults? I don't know.

P.S.: If I'm not wrong, flashing and public masturbation were a crime in Spain till 1988 when the law forbidding public scandal was abolished. If I'm not wrong, current regulations date from 1995. I'm not sure what were the regulations between 1988 and 1995.
 
Ideal sleeping bag liner whether we want to add a thermal plus to our bag, or if we want to use it alone to sleep in shelters or hostels. Thanks to its mummy shape, it adapts perfectly to our body.

€46,-
I can't answer for Spanish law, but generally criminal behaviour looks at the mind of the perpetrator as well as the act itself - so deliberately offensive sexual behaviour would be an act done with the intention of intimidating, distressing, disturbing, dominating the victim. The intersection of mens rea and actus rea - endlessly fascinating to lawyers! As Wikipedia puts it "the act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty".
 
@Kanga , I think the issue here is that you seem to equate flashing with wanting to scare someone, or as you wrote, put someone in immediare sense of aprhension. And that is not what it may be about.

I remember riding a bus to sork in the am in Buenos Aires and all of a sudxen looking put the window into the car next to the bus at a red light and being a bit surprised as to what was on display. But surely this was not about frightening people, nor do I meanto frighten the neighbours when I walk from my dressing room back to my bathroom in my own home to pick up a garnment I forgot to take with me. Ah, and the there was the neighbour across the street whenI lived in Brussels.;)

Not caring who sees what, or getting a bit of a thrill thinking that someone may blush if they see something is a far step in mu opinion from it automatically being about inducing fear.
 
The fear comes as there is no layers of protection such as a window or a group of people, hence the feeling of vulnerability of the victims as the act is than to them as target.
 
Join our full-service guided tour and let us convert you into a Pampered Pilgrim!
The fear comes as there is no layers of protection such as a window or a group of people, hence the feeling of vulnerability of the victims as the act is than to them as target.
But Kanga is making a general statement about flashing not being reprimanded, not just on remote parts of the Camino.
 
You are correct, the distinction is that flashing is targeted, not just a naked person walking around. The point is that this is not an issue of nudity but an action intended to cause a reaction which normally is fear and intimidation to a specific "targeted" person. I'm a 200 lb man in good shape and even though I have travel all over this had never happen to me, the problem in my view is that these actions are oriented to those believe to be weaker or easy to intimidate. (Some times the perpetrator finds that they choose the wrong target, there are some really tough ladies out there). This happed to my wife a couple of years ago when we were traveling, fortunately I was walking not too far behind her and as son as the man noticed me accelerating my pace he run away. That is targeting...

My thoughts,
Chris
 
One thing I forgot to add that even though there may be no code section that criminalizes this behavior, you can be sure that if it is reported along the Camino, the local police will do their best to find the man and use their many other policing tools short of arrest to work with the family, try some scaring or shaming tactics, etc. I have a fair amount of experience with this, unfortunately, and know that the police take it very seriously and will do what they can. So I continue to urge women to report this behavior, no matter what the criminal laws say!
 
Very light, comfortable and compressible poncho. Specially designed for protection against water for any activity.

Our Atmospheric H30 poncho offers lightness and waterproofness. Easily compressible and made with our Waterproof fabric, its heat-sealed interior seams guarantee its waterproofness. Includes carrying bag.

€60,-
Oh, I so agree.

The other thing to remember is that these incidents are still very rare, considering the numbers of us on the Camino. It is sonething that can happen anywhere in the world. I don't want to let our concerns grow out of proportion. Starting the thread was simply out of concern that victims not feel unsupported.
 
Agreed Kanga. Is also good to know that when reported the police does what they can.
 
Yes targeting women (alone) is really deliberately offensive - Yet one more good use for walking poles ............ I know your not suppose to use more force than necessary ........... but I would be happy to see a woman crack him a good one upside the head anyways :)
 
Get a spanish phone number with Airalo. eSim, so no physical SIM card. Easy to use app to add more funds if needed.
Well, for what it is worth (and not camino related), when rather young, I and a girlfriend met a flasher/masturbatur when we walked in a wood (we used to walk there). Somehow we did not feel threatened - we kind of giggled and walked away.

At a rather later time, I and another girlfriend sat on a bench on top of a scree overlooking the ocean and he was down below. I doubt he got much gratification from this. We laughed so hard at his antics - and he had kept his red socks on!

Not that I disrespect persons who have felt threatened though ...

annelise
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
In Amsterdam there was a flasher right outside the office where people went to get their marriage licenses.
He'd sit on the bench and flash the young couples.

The authorities came.
They moved the bench.

I realize this is not an answer to the current problem on the Camino.
But I remembered it and thought it was funny.
:::ducking:::
 
One thing I forgot to add that even though there may be no code section that criminalizes this behavior, you can be sure that if it is reported along the Camino, the local police will do their best to find the man and use their many other policing tools short of arrest to work with the family, try some scaring or shaming tactics, etc. I have a fair amount of experience with this, unfortunately, and know that the police take it very seriously and will do what they can. So I continue to urge women to report this behavior, no matter what the criminal laws say!

On the del Norte near Zarautz, I had a conversation with a guardia civil who had been involved in a sting operation on a flasher out of Bilbao. The offender was detained briefly (which the authorities can do in Spain to "verify identity") and agreed to counselling with a mental health professional. She said that the Francoist laws on nudity and public decency were used for harassment of tourists and, occasionally, political opponents. She believed that it was good that these laws were abolished but that it did create challenges for the police.
 
Get a spanish phone number with Airalo. eSim, so no physical SIM card. Easy to use app to add more funds if needed.
On the del Norte near Zarautz, I had a conversation with a guardia civil who had been involved in a sting operation on a flasher out of Bilbao. The offender was detained briefly (which the authorities can do in Spain to "verify identity") and agreed to counselling with a mental health professional. She said that the Francoist laws on nudity and public decency were used for harassment of tourists and, occasionally, political opponents. She believed that it was good that these laws were abolished but that it did create challenges for the police.
That fits in with my experience as well. I lived in Spain in 1976-77, the year after Franco died. It was like the dyke had broken -- it was sometimes hard to find a real newspaper at a street kiosk, but they were hidden there somewhere with all the X-rated stuff. That seems to have subsided, though far more explicit material is readily available than what I typically see in the US. Seems like it is time to find a new accommodation between individual liberties and sex crimes, it's been 40 years now.
 
That fits in with my experience as well. I lived in Spain in 1976-77, the year after Franco died. It was like the dyke had broken -- it was sometimes hard to find a real newspaper at a street kiosk, but they were hidden there somewhere with all the X-rated stuff. That seems to have subsided, though far more explicit material is readily available than what I typically see in the US. Seems like it is time to find a new accommodation between individual liberties and sex crimes, it's been 40 years now.

From what this constable (and a lawyer with whom I spoke on these issues) says, they seem to believe that they have found an accommodation through managing cases and looking at them as a mental health issue-- but we need to report the flashers, each time and every time, and make it clear that it is a problem for pilgrims. The Spanish had a difficult century trying to figure out the limits they wished to place on the state's authority. They appear to use a criminal law philosophy which leans to thinking of crime rather than sex crime, but that is perhaps a longer discussion which would require a little more knowledge of Spanish law and Castilian than I have.
 
Some interesting press going on today in Spain, with A newspaper article being passed around of the gentleman who has been accused of rape of a Pilgrim lady, and who is also suspected of several incidences of public masturbation and flashing on the Camino trail. Apparently, he is 32 years of age, and she is 50 years of age. I have just skipped over the article, and would need to spend more time with it.

Portomarin area. The women in the restaurant where we are now eating are all talking about it – – the Spanish women, that is. We are the only Pilgrim women in here. In fact, the woman who is working at the bar today she sure he did it. She says that she knows him, and she's nodding her head rather resignedly.
 
Very light, comfortable and compressible poncho. Specially designed for protection against water for any activity.

Our Atmospheric H30 poncho offers lightness and waterproofness. Easily compressible and made with our Waterproof fabric, its heat-sealed interior seams guarantee its waterproofness. Includes carrying bag.

€60,-
In Amsterdam there was a flasher right outside the office where people went to get their marriage licenses.
He'd sit on the bench and flash the young couples.

The authorities came.
They moved the bench.

I realize this is not an answer to the current problem on the Camino.
But I remembered it and thought it was funny.
:::ducking:::
That is funny and it gives me pause for thought. When I was a youngster I often used to wonder why people sat around on benches in the centre of town. Maybe they were waiting to spot people wearing red socks. ;)
 
I can't answer for Spanish law, but generally criminal behaviour looks at the mind of the perpetrator as well as the act itself - so deliberately offensive sexual behaviour would be an act done with the intention of intimidating, distressing, disturbing, dominating the victim.
They appear to use a criminal law philosophy which leans to thinking of crime rather than sex crime

Harassment, constraints, threats and similar things are considered crimes in Spain. There are also all the sex crimes I quoted on a previous reply to this thread. The question is when something is considered to be harassment, a threat... That's when you find things like:

To kiss without consentiment and to touch the asses of his female employees wasn't considered sexual harassment by a court in Madrid. More info at: www.abc.es/20121009/sociedad/abci-besos-sentencia-acoso-201210091115.html

Sexual harassment by phone made by a man that called the victim at any hour seeming that gasped while he was masturbating himself isn't a fault anymore since July 1st 2015 (previously it was considered a fault of unjust vexations) so the man was declared non-guilty by the court (this time in Cáceres). More info at: www.eldiario.es/eldiarioex/cacerena-telefonicas-sexuales-denuncia-absuelven_0_446556381.html

So I continue to urge women to report this behavior, no matter what the criminal laws say!

That's a great idea. Police knows laws better than all (or most) of us and if you think something might be a crime they will tell you if it can be a crime (or not). Maybe you thought it could be one sort of crime but they find out that isn't a crime in Spain but another thing you didn't realize it's indeed a crime in Spain... In other words, you may think A is crime but it turns out that isn't A but B that is a crime and you were so focused in A that didn't think about B. Even if what you report isn't a crime, reporting it might help police to take preventive actions and/or to have more info to sort out future crimes so, yes, reporting is a great idea.

She said that the Francoist laws on nudity and public decency were used for harassment of tourists and, occasionally, political opponents.

One of the laws used was the one about public scandal that I quoted above. Acts against modesty and good manners where subject to fine or prision, depending on how severe they were. That included too many things (not just nudity and public masturbation). As an example, I'll quote a case from 1986 (although it's well after the death of Franco, and there was already democracy in Spain, the law was still in force (as I said above it was derogued in 1988)). As I was saying, in 1986 a guy was arrested for having a too affectionate actitude with his girlfriend in the bar of an hostal. Later, he was declared guilty and charged with 5 months of prision. The guy ended commiting suicide. You can read a news item about it (in Spanish) at http://elpais.com/diario/1987/02/07/espana/539650825_850215.html and you can find more references online because the case generated a great controversy (about the law, the court ruling...).
 
One of the roles of the police in Spain is to act in support of the wider community (the phrase which was quoted to me was "agents of civil solidarity") and as such, they have a role in preventing problems, counselling malefactors, and encouraging them to seek help--- this applies whether or not a particular law has been violated. Pilgrims can do their part by reporting incidents immediately. The greater number of complaints, the greater their immediacy, and the greater their precision, will result in greater enforcement. The emergency number (112) has operators ready 24 hours a day in several languages and Spanish telephones, even when the battery is dead, will call through.
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
I reported a flasher in October 2014 on the CF and the Spanish police took it very seriously. They were on the scene in minutes but couldn't find the guy as he had disappeared but they really gave me the impression that they would have loved to 'speak' with him. SY
 

❓How to ask a question

How to post a new question on the Camino Forum.

Forum Rules

Forum Rules

Camino Updates on YouTube

Camino Conversations

Most downloaded Resources

This site is run by Ivar at

in Santiago de Compostela.
This site participates in the Amazon Affiliate program, designed to provide a means for Ivar to earn fees by linking to Amazon
Official Camino Passport (Credential) | 2024 Camino Guides
Back
Top