Pre Christian Tracks

[vicrev]

Being an ignoramus & being honest with my self,not knowing much about the Caminos, really, (trying to rectify that) one thing has sometimes puzzled me,at times on this Forum it has been stated the pilgrims were following pre Christian tracks.........why did the pre Christians go to Santiago ?............what reason did they use any of the Camino tracks ?.............hope nobody is offended by this question,that was not the intention.........................Keep smiling........Vicrev

 

[wayfarer]

My understanding is that the pre Christians did not walk to Santiago but to The End of the Earth, Finisterra, where they believed the souls of their dead went where the sun sets. That is why some pilgrims still make that journey to Finisterra and wait at the lighthouse for the sun to set. It was also traditional for pilgrims to burn their clothes here as a way of casting off the old and starting anew. In reality they probably burned them because they were lice and bedbug ridden.

 

[vicrev]

Thanks Pat................Vicrev

 

[Tincatinker]

Western Galicia has been called the largest neolithic cemetery in europe. Its seems possible that the mortal remains of our early ancestors were brought for internment at the "end of the world". Ireland, Cornwall, Brittany can all make similar claims but there does seem to be something special about Galicia. There have been suggestions that Campo Stellae refers not to a field of stars but to a field of grave (markers). Certainly the pagan pilgrims will lay an ancient claim to the route to Fisterra. It seems the desire to be buried at the end of the world gripped even Santiago.

 

[vicrev]

Thanks,Tincatinker.......Is there evidence of this ?...............Vicrev

 

[Tumbleweed]

Wow, very interesting. Thanks!

 

[karenfromcali]

In reality they probably burned them because they were lice and bedbug ridden.[/quote]

Ah, so not much has changed then!!! lol.

 

[Houlet]

Everyday is a learning experience - Thans for the backgound info.

 

[SYates]

I am looking for evidence for a "pre-Christian" Camino since months and honestly, I haven't found much ... Yes, there is evidence of ancient settlements, including cemeteries of course, Roman roads and transhumance ect but I have, yet, to come across academic proof of a "pre-Christian" pilgrimage on what is now the Camino de Santiago. If I am wrong, please somebody correct me ;-) SY

 

[vicrev]

Getting interesting..........

 

[KinkyOne]

Well, if for example the druids at Stonehenge and similar places could be called pilgrims than we can talk about pre Christian pilgrimages, but I don't think that's correct. It was more worship (especially the sun) than pilgrimage those days. In nowadays Europe pilgrimage was/is kind of constant flow of admirers/believers to certain places that have some saints relics, on the other hand worshiping was set on exact dates during the year (equinox etc.).

Maybe I'm doing a mistake here with terms "worship" and "pilgrimage" because I'm not English native speaker, sorry...

I know that todays interpretation of burning the clothes or shoes at Finisterre is as symbol of casting off the old and starting anew, but maybe it came from slaying and burning animals (or humans in some cultures) in pre Christian ages???

 

[vicrev]

Thanks Kink.....long time no hear........

 

[newfydog]

The Romans made an amazing network of well engineered roads. When the pilgrimage started, there had been little long distance travel through the dark ages, and the Roman roads were still the best routes available.

Here a picture I took of them building one, and what it looked like when I returned 2100 years later.

 

[wayfarer]

Many many many belated Happy Birthdays newfydog.

 

[Tincatinker]

Newfy is right in that there is little evidence of long distance travel in the dark-ages (unless you count the Golden Horde battering the gates of Vienna) but there is considerable evidence of long distance travel in Neolithic times. The Stonehenge "Archer" came from somewhere on the Danube, Utzi, the Italo-Austrian ice-man was a long way from home when he was slain. Flint tools from Grimes Graves in Norfolk traded to the Mediterranean. Mediterranean sea shells traded back.
Some have calculated that it would have taken the entire Neolithic population of the UK to build elements of Stonehenge, with the implication that people assembled from all over Europe. And when there they made formalised journeys along processional routes; pilgrimages, maybe not. But me I'm happy in my faith that when I walked to Fisterra I was following a route of pilgrimage the history of which the mists of time have long obscured.

Like SYates I've been looking for definitive evidence but there isn't a lot about. The focus of palentology has been on dna and human migration for the last couple of decades. Although some great stuff has been done and published on Stonehenge and it's evolution Most people still think the 'henge had something to do with Druidism. Though it had fallen out of use for maybe a couple of millennia before those guys came along. Fable, fact, faith and knowledge. We need a little of each in our lives I believe.

 

[wayfarer]

I think this is an example of when history becomes ledgend, the spoken word but nothing on paper.

 

[jmcarp]

This may be a bit off-topic, but does anyone know how much of the Camino as it exists today, follows (at least closely) the paths and roads taken by pilgrims in the golden age of the pilgrimage back in medieval times?

Jim

 

[SYates]

I know a bit more about that ;-) I can't give you percentages, but it is pretty clear that the Camino changed even during in the "golden age" its course. For example, before Santo Domingo built the bridge and pilgrims hospice in what is now Santo Domingo de la Calzada, the Camino followed another route, but as the bridge, the road and the hospice Santo Domingo build became more popular the route adapted. I remember vaguely that Alfonso VI even put out an official decree that confirmed this "re-location" of the route. Need to dig through my books to find out more if you are interested.

Also bear in mind that the Camino fell, nearly completely, in disuse for several centuries. As Don Elias of O Cebreiro started to paint the first yellow arrows to re-mark it, some of it had already disappeared under modern roads. A Spanish pilgrim I know, who walked the Camino the first time in the 80s, told me that for them the equivalent of the yellow arrow today was then the white line alongside the road.

There is a lot of evidence preserved in Spain what villages where on the road (sometimes changing, see above) and sometimes even the exact pilgrims road through the villages, towns and cites was preserved (sirga peregrinal, calle de Santiago ect) but between the villages? Bridges and old (Roman) roads are other hints, see Via de la Plata.

I am not sure if that answers your question, but as I said, even during the Golden Age the pilgrims walked where they wanted and where they found the best support. So, in the end, the Camino is where a pilgrim walked / walks because it were and are the pilgrims that made the way. Buen Camino! SY

This may be a bit off-topic, but does anyone know how much of the Camino as it exists today, follows (at least closely) the paths and roads taken by pilgrims in the golden age of the pilgrimage back in medieval times?

Jim

 

[Pelegrin]

I don't know anything about prechristian pilgrimage to Santiago. In fact my first news about it is from this forum.
What I know about prechristian pilgrimages in Galicia is that their destinations were to places that had sacred elements, like rocks (Mount Pindo), forests (Lugo), and above all fountains (San Andrés de Teixido, Fonsagrada, etc.). People went there for healing and worship purposes. And still today, they go from all over Galicia to San Andrés to pray in its little chapel and drink water from the "Fonte Santa".

Therefore, a posible way of research, would be to find out the presence in Santiago of one of these sacred elements. But I'm afraid that in afirmative case the pilgrimage would be more local than international.

 

[SYates]

Oh San Andres de Teixido! "va de muerto quien no fue de vivo" (Go as a dead person / ghost, if you didn't go whilst alive.) I love that place! I took my husband (Anglican priest / CoE) there and he was quite speechless. If you go there, make sure to find a Galician / knowledgeable person to show you around and explain things to you. SY
PS I always imagined stories about being a hospitalera on the Camino San Andres - centipedes with blisters, sapos ... I think I wrote even some short stories, need to check my old hard drives!
PPS If you are in the area and have the opportunity, don't miss it!

 

[Pelegrin]

Yes you are right, "A San Andrés de Teixido vai de morto o que non foi de vivo". But this saying only has to do with Galicians. I have already gone three times. Just in case.

 

[Tincatinker]

I'm not sure that there is any suggestion, let alone evidence for, a pre- Christian pilgrimage to Santiago though there is a long history of Christianisation of pagan sites. My best local example be the church of St Andrew at Alfriston in West Sussex, built on a flint walled mound of far greater age. Suggested by some to be a sacrificial mound where "gifts" could be offered to the river gods of the Cuckmere. (and no I don't mean drowned babies) water sacrifices of items of value, jewellery, swords, metal objects generally were common in the bronze and iron ages. It would have also been a good place to dodge occasional tidal surges, but that's the pragmatists view.

The reverence of springs, fountains, Fuentes is another matter. Many perpetual springs are now sacrified. Access to clean, potable water was crucial to survival. Attribution to God or the gods or their saints for the presence of good water is unsurprising. That wonderful fuente on the Alto Perdon created by Santiago to save the dying pilgrim from temptations of the devil being a classic example. Water, finding it, avoiding it (bridges or fords) or reaching it - Fisterra might be the first sight of the sea, ever, for many pilgrims - is a key element. Fire, the Botafumerio or a bonfire of socks at the lighthouse...

Oh I could get ever so elemental here but I'll stop. Any pagans out there who want to plan a "reclaim the Camino" camino next year please pm me, or maybe don't - I've always had an aversion to organised anything.

 

[SYates]

"To Santiago" would be anyhow difficult as the only pre-Christian evidence there I know of is the Roman cemetery in that area - which, btw, might have given the by-name Compostela to that place. As for Christianisation of pagan sites, I am always a bit suspicious of that. I try to explain. The explanation I hear often from Pagan friends goes along the lines "The Church usurpated pagan sites of worship." like they did so intentionally (per decree), more likely is that allegiances changed over time, but people still used the same space, because they liked it and were used to it. So not by (Church) decree but by custom did this happen in many cases.
Oh, please keep going being elemental! This is all so interesting for me! BTW I have an aversion to anything 'organised' also, kind of early childhood trauma - being born in Germany ;-) SY
PS I was always fascinated by the tinkers/travellers that passed our area when I lived in the UK. Never was courageous enough to approach them as I didn't wanted to disturb their privacy, but there was always a tiny voice in me saying - that are your kind of people ...

 

[StuartM]

I'm not sure that there is any suggestion, let alone evidence for, a pre- Christian pilgrimage to Santiago though there is a long history of Christianisation of pagan sites. My best local example be the church of St Andrew at Alfriston in West Sussex, built on a flint walled mound of far greater age. Suggested by some to be a sacrificial mound where "gifts" could be offered to the river gods of the Cuckmere. (and no I don't mean drowned babies) water sacrifices of items of value, jewellery, swords, metal objects generally were common in the bronze and iron ages. It would have also been a good place to dodge occasional tidal surges, but that's the pragmatists view.

Yew trees allegedly are a good sign that a church was built on a pagan site. When I visited the Naranco sites I thought it must've been a fine line in the early church between Christianity and paganism, they are covered in animal and nature symbols, the only Christian imagery appears to be later additions.

The reverence of springs, fountains, Fuentes is another matter. Many perpetual springs are now sacrified. Access to clean, potable water was crucial to survival. Attribution to God or the gods or their saints for the presence of good water is unsurprising. That wonderful fuente on the Alto Perdon created by Santiago to save the dying pilgrim from temptations of the devil being a classic example. Water, finding it, avoiding it (bridges or fords) or reaching it - Fisterra might be the first sight of the sea, ever, for many pilgrims - is a key element. Fire, the Botafumerio or a bonfire of socks at the lighthouse...

Ooh... springs and fountains is one of my pet subjects. I've done a lot of diving in springs/fonts in France and so many of them have some form a sacred tradition to them. There is one in the north-east that has had all sorts of stuff (thought to be offerings) lifted from the mud. Most have some sort of folk tradition associated with them, home of monsters/spirits, or linked to saints or used for ceremonial bathing, etc. I dived in some springs in Mexico where you could still see offerings chucked in a thousand years ago, they were considered the entrance to Xibalba, the underworld. There is another spring in the north of England I've dived a lot and on Midsummer someone still leaves bundles of herbs and flowers at it.

My favourite is the Fosse Dionne in France, thought to have been a place of worship of Divona, a Romano-Gaulish goddess and the home of a basilisk. The ever-practical mediaeval world turned it into a laundry:

Oh I could get ever so elemental here but I'll stop. Any pagans out there who want to plan a "reclaim the Camino" camino next year please pm me, or maybe don't - I've always had an aversion to organised anything.

I don't know if I count as a pagan but pre/ancient history and folklore fascinate me and I can ramble about it for a long time

 

[SYates]

What a beautiful photo StuartM Thank you for sharing it! SY

 

[Tincatinker]

Stuart, wonderful photo, I do love those medieval pragmatists. There is a ring of yews at St Andrews, though all much younger than the church. Think on't.

SY, I don't subscribe to the "takeover" theory either, evolution, absorption are a much more human processes. The remains of the chapel dedicated to St Michael on Glastonbury Tor is another classic example of christian devotional masonry erected on an ancient site. Though there are those who suggest that the siting of a chapel to one of the great Angels on a "dragon" mound suggests contrariwise to evolution. If your ever passing this way drop in. We can walk some by-ways and talk about old ways.

 

[SYates]

Tincatinker! Seems we agree in many points, as the guys in the, very soapy, Casablanca movie said "I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship." Do you know somebody called Jo Harrington, she is an online friend of mine, a pagan, and quite connected to Glastonbury?! And yes, if I am going ever back to the UK (not planned at the moment), I will give you a bell! SY

 

[wayfarer]

"To Santiago" would be anyhow difficult as the only pre-Christian evidence there I know of is the Roman cemetery in that area - which, btw, might have given the by-name Compostela to that place. As for Christianisation of pagan sites, I am always a bit suspicious of that. I try to explain. The explanation I hear often from Pagan friends goes along the lines "The Church usurpated pagan sites of worship." like they did so intentionally (per decree), more likely is that allegiances changed over time, but people still used the same space, because they liked it and were used to it. So not by (Church) decree but by custom did this happen in many cases.
Oh, please keep going being elemental! This is all so interesting for me! BTW I have an aversion to anything 'organised' also, kind of early childhood trauma - being born in Germany ;-) SY
PS I was always fascinated by the tinkers/travellers that passed our area when I lived in the UK. Never was courageous enough to approach them as I didn't wanted to disturb their privacy, but there was always a tiny voice in me saying - that are your kind of people ...

My brother in law who is a priest and a very "black and white no grey areas" type told me during a discussion of Christianisation of pagan sites that it was policy to bring any community into the Christian church to take over their holy places and make them Christian holy places. It made conversion easier and after a few generations people had forgotten the origins of healing wells etc and considered them holy wells names after Christian saints

 

[SYates]

But did that, historically, really happen that way or is / was that more a case of wishful thinking? SY

My brother in law who is a priest and a very "black and white no grey areas" type told me during a discussion of Christianisation of pagan sites that it was policy to bring any community into the Christian church to take over their holy places and make them Christian holy places. It made conversion easier and after a few generations people had forgotten the origins of healing wells etc and considered them holy wells names after Christian saints

 

[wayfarer]

But did that, historically, really happen that way or is / was that more a case of wishful thinking? SY

If you knew this guy SY you wouldn't even ask that question, he is one of the most historicaly knowledgeable people I have ever met on matters religous. It was one of his degree subjects.

 

[Tincatinker]

Wishful thinking, they are still our sites, they've just got visitors

 

[SYates]

If you knew this guy SY you wouldn't even ask that question, he is one of the most historicaly knowledgeable people I have ever met on matters religous. It was one of his degree subjects.

I would still argue with him over this, I am not clueless about that subject either ;-) SY

 

[SYates]

Good point! SY

Wishful thinking, they are still our sites, they've just got visitors

 

[SYates]

Ok guys, I am off to bed now, do me a favo(u)r, this thread is far too interesting for getting locked because of the "discussing religious matters rule" here on this forum. Can you keep an eye on it and keep it "civilised" so that it doesn't get locked? Please, pretty please, lets have one time a meaningful discussion about these matters without it going downhill!
Sleep well and see you all tomorrow after my second mug of coffee ;-) SY

 

[wayfarer]

Wishful thinking, they are still our sites, they've just got visitors

I'm with you Tincatinker.
And SY I would never think anyone clueless.
Goodnight and codladh samh.

 

[vicrev]

All nice.....................Vicrev

 

[vicrev]

Isn't it great to see people having a discussion, about such volatile subjects as Religion & Paganism ( what a mix) without getting all uptight & nasty !!...You people are a credit to this Forum.................thank you all for the information you have given me (& others).....I have lots of questions on this ,but I might wait a while & PM people ( that's if they don't mind )..............keep smiling........Vicrev

 

[wayfarer]

I wholeheartedly agree with you Vic, this is a great thread and a good discussion. Thank you.

 

[vicrev]

I just can't help myself..........it has been said that the pre Christians headed to Santiago,because it was thought to be the where the world ended.....why go west,why not go east,into the rising sun ? A lot of pagans were sun worshippers........why not go south,north?........just a thought...........Vicrev

 

[dougfitz]

Here a picture I took of them building one, and what it looked like when I returned 2100 years later.

@newfydog you said that with such a straight face I almost thought you were there

 

[vicrev]

So did I Doug,but I was too scared to say anything............

 

[SYates]

I think the idea behind this interpretation is related to the cult of the death in the sense of Samhain ect. End of the world/life/sinking sun, even the name "costa da morte" (death coast) is sometimes interpreted that way and not because it is a very dangerous coast where many people lost and are loosing their lives in the waters there. SY

I just can't help myself..........it has been said that the pre Christians headed to Santiago,because it was thought to be the where the world ended.....why go west,why not go east,into the rising sun ? A lot of pagans were sun worshippers........why not go south,north?........just a thought...........Vicrev

 

[wayfarer]

I just can't help myself..........it has been said that the pre Christians headed to Santiago,because it was thought to be the where the world ended.....why go west,why not go east,into the rising sun ? A lot of pagans were sun worshippers........why not go south,north?........just a thought...........Vicrev

They were indeed sun worshipers, the sun rose in the east, a symbol of new life and set in the west, the symol of death, so it was logical for them to walk west to pay tribute to their dead. So too with the summer and winter solstice, in summer the sun reached its highest peak and then started to slowly wane towards the winter soltice. During the winter soltice the sun does not appear to rise any higher above the horizon for about three days the slowly starts to rise again as the seasons progress. (think about this in a broader context)

 

[StuartM]

I just can't help myself..........it has been said that the pre Christians headed to Santiago,because it was thought to be the where the world ended.....why go west,why not go east,into the rising sun ? A lot of pagans were sun worshippers........why not go south,north?........just a thought...........Vicrev

The west always seems to have a draw in sun worship. I remember a lot of sites in the Yucatan were aligned on the setting sun. In Scotland in the dark ages heading west was a big thing, the ancient kings were buried on Iona. Iona was the home of the first Christians but it's also one of the most westerly islands that was easily accessible, the place of the setting sun. On the other hand, Maes Howe, an underground building thought to possibly have been either a tomb or a temple, is aligned on the rising sun around the winter solstice, presumably signifying rebirth.

Then there is the closing scene of the Wicker Man, filmed against the sunset and all its symbolism of death.

 

[Caplen]

Isn't it great to see people having a discussion, about such volatile subjects as Religion & Paganism ( what a mix) without getting all uptight & nasty !!...You people are a credit to this Forum.................thank you all for the information you have given me (& others).....I have lots of questions on this ,but I might wait a while & PM people ( that's if they don't mind )..............keep smiling........Vicrev

Absolutely! I haven't had time to contribute the last couple of days, but I have been thoroughly enjoying reading this thread.

When I started at this forum a couple of months ago, I was roundly spanked for making the mere suggestion of pagan influences on the Camino. I almost quit this place after less than a week. I'm so happy I stuck around, and so pleased with the positive tone and enthusiastic discussion.

Thanks for all the interesting input here! Can I suggest though, that the discussion not move to PM's? This is all of public interest for those inclined to click on the thread in the first place. I don't want to miss out!
cheers all,
Adrienne

 

[vicrev]

When I was working on archaeological digs as a volunteer back in the day( yes I am ancient & at times feel it) the dig directors always said......." find me three stones in a row & I will find you a pre civilization under it"...... Have there been, or, are there any digs in Santiago & if so does anybody know what was found & what period was it attributed to ?................keep smiling..........Vicrev

 

[SYates]

Obviously the cathedral floor has been dug up, and what was found where the remains of a Roman cemetery that belonged to a Roman mansion dating back to the 1st century AD. The area of Santiago itself wasn't heavily settled before the discovery of the tomb as far as I know. More important settlements were, for example, in Iria Flavia (Bishop See for the area and port) and Wikipedia to the rescue - all these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Galicia

When I was working on archaeological digs as a volunteer back in the day( yes I am ancient & at times feel it) the dig directors always said......." find me three stones in a row & I will find you a pre civilization under it"...... Have there been, or, are there any digs in Santiago & if so does anybody know what was found & what period was it attributed to ?................keep smiling..........Vicrev

 

[David]

The thing is, we just don't know. There are no written records. The Celts have left us the remains of their civilisations but they didn't have a written language so nearly all is lost. There was a period of Roman occupation - therefore Latin and Greek - before Rome became Christian ... but it would mainly have been the invaders who used these languages. All we really know about the Druids, for instance, was written by Julius Caesar (that power-mad murdering psychopath) who rather disliked them, to say the least!
So, we can infer quite a lot from Celt and pre-Celt remains but we just cannot know.
We have found Celt remains far away from Celt lands so they were certainly travellers, as we are now.

What we do know is that they were people, as we are people .. and what we long for they would have longed for. If we search for meaning then they would have searched for meaning. If we pilgrimage then it would be surprising if they didn't also pilgrimage.
At their gatherings they probably also discussed what footwear/backpack/waterproof coat was best for the great journey west!!

Of Christianity moving into new areas and displacing the older religions - well, .. all religions adapt as they spread, adopting rites and rituals into their theology to incorporate followers of the 'previous' religion. In a sense it is like stretching a new rubber sheet over something older. At first it is all smooth, and then the older starts to push through, distorting the sheet (terrible example I know but can't think of anything better at the moment).

Oh for a time machine!!!

 

[stevenjarvis]

I am alsways delighted that Ancient Civilizations has the good sense to build their ruins near excellent transport infrastructure.

 

[vicrev]

Thanks,David.............

 

[SYates]

As I was walking today my 'part-time dog' (long, unrelated story!) I thought up a thought experiment that ties in with what David says:

Let's imagine for a moment Christianity disappears from this earth without leaving a single written trace (I leave the how and why up to your creativity ;-) )
In a few thousand years some archaeologists dig out some churches - perhaps even from different denominations.
How would they interpret their findings?

They could come to correct and incorrect conclusions. For example deducting correctly that they have been used as meeting place and centres of some sort of worship. But they couldn't reconstruct much of the liturgy or the theology solely on the buildings they found. Remember - no written traces! They could conclude, as most churches are build 'east facing', that the worship there had something to do with the rising sun, not entirely wrong, but also not completely correct. Now take in account how the use of churches has changed over time, from city central meeting place to 'only open Sundays' and you see which problems our imaginative archaeologists would face if they wanted to know what happened exactly, and why, in these buildings.

Like David and others said, we can deduct some things from buildings, monuments and ruins, but others will, without written records, always be a theory which might be correct or wrong, or a bit of both.
SY

 

[StuartM]

Obviously the cathedral floor has been dug up, and what was found where the remains of a Roman cemetery that belonged to a Roman mansion dating back to the 1st century AD. The area of Santiago itself wasn't heavily settled before the discovery of the tomb as far as I know. More important settlements were, for example, in Iria Flavia (Bishop See for the area and port) and Wikipedia to the rescue - all these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Galicia

Out of interest has there ever been any excavation of the tomb? And is the tomb as it stands today the original building incorporated into cathedral or a later crypt?

I remember seeing a very good animation on the origins of the site, the Roman cemetery, the tomb, the various other burials within the chamber and how the caskets/sarcophagi moved around over the years. Just wondering how it related to the crypt as it is today as it was difficult to see the similarity after centuries of building work. I think it was on the cathedral website.

 

[David]

I am alsways delighted that Ancient Civilizations has the good sense to build their ruins near excellent transport infrastructure.

Absolutely. Near me, down in the West Country of England there is a Roman villa (remains obviously) right next to the busy M5 motorway - now that was serious forward planning!

 

[oursonpolaire]

The only concrete and specific reference I have seen was that of the Cruz de Fierro being set up at a shrine of Mercury, as was common at borders.

A more modern version of the Christianization of the yearly shamans' gathering at Lac de Diable in northern Alberta by Albert Lacombe, an Oblate missionary to the Cree and Blackfoot, who turned it into the annual pilgrimage to the renamed Lac Sainte Anne, which still brings thousands of First Peoples there every year for services and a fiesta.

 

[SYates]

Out of interest has there ever been any excavation of the tomb? And is the tomb as it stands today the original building incorporated into cathedral or a later crypt? I remember seeing a very good animation on the origins of the site, the Roman cemetery, the tomb, the various other burials within the chamber and how the caskets/sarcophagi moved around over the years. Just wondering how it related to the crypt as it is today as it was difficult to see the similarity after centuries of building work. I think it was on the cathedral website.

The crypt with the silver casket (from 1886) that holds the bones has been 're-modeled' after the remains were re-discovered in the 19th century. A good animation can be seen here: click on 'pantalla completa' for the most impact and then on La Tumba Apostolica! Enjoy ;-) SY

 

[CaminoJohn]

Relating to the discussion of takeover of pagan sites by Christian decree...didn't the church take control of markets..making them take place on church property to help with the conversion process...town folk became Christians, people of the heath not hence heathen?

 

[SYates]

I guess that depends on the country you are speaking about. In Germany, for example, market rights were a privilege given to a place, town or village by either the secular and the church authority, depending on who was the ruler of the land. When, for example, the village belonged to a monastery, yes, the monastery would be the one that granted or refused permission to hold a fair or market. On the other hand if the 'right to grant market right' for that area was in the hand of a secular authority, a duke for example, he would grant or refuse it. And prior to the 12th century only the ruling king had this right in the area that is now Germany. Markets were, btw, a 'medieval invention' in Europe that happened as the christianization of Europe was mostly completed.
SY

Relating to the discussion of takeover of pagan sites by Christian decree...didn't the church take control of markets..making them take place on church property to help with the conversion process...town folk became Christians, people of the heath not hence heathen?

 

[SYates]

And just a quick opinion that it would be a good idea to stay with the original topic, see quoted text below, if we spread too wide out, things might get muddy ;-) SY

... ,at times on this Forum it has been stated the pilgrims were following pre Christian tracks.........why did the pre Christians go to Santiago ?............what reason did they use any of the Camino tracks ?.....

 

[Tincatinker]

So glad to see this thread still running nicely. SY's re-stating of the OP is maybe timely too. Maybe a re-visit: "pilgrims were following pre Christian tracks". Well sections of, say, the Pilgrims' Way in the UK certainly follow ancient chalk ridgeway tracks but only because they are there and going in the desired direction of travel. As SY has said, the Camino routes have meandered across the landscape in search of easy, safe passage and indeed as modern motorways have been built along those desirable routes the blessed pilgrim has been guided to the by-ways and quieter routes by the negotiating skills and yellow paint brushes of the amigos and associations. Those who have walked the Calzada Romana can be confident they have followed an ancient pilgrim route and indeed occasionally stepped on the very stones our forebears sandals kissed. When I walk The Ridgeway from Ivinghoe Beacon to Avebury and the other Wiltshire Henges I'm following a pre-historic "motorway" a trade route and drove-way and, who knows perhaps a route of pilgrimage for those making their way to the Neolithic temples that scatter the Wiltshire landscape.

"Why did the pre-christians go to Santiago" - they probably didn't. I can't find much on the pre-history of Galicia other than dear old Wikipedia, some snippets in the Labrinthos site www.labyrinthos.net and some hard-core academic stuff, but there are no obvious direct links. They probably walked right on past, at least until the Romans started all that "improving" of the infrastructure. I believe the destination, if it was such, was "World's End", the "Costa del Muerte".

This thread has given me a nudge for what this winter's home-work might be though. The myth is out there...

 

[JohnMcM]

........... and so my learning from this forum continues.

Said it before and I'll say it again, so many marvellous people here willing to share.

Thank you.

 

[SYates]

We shouldn't forget another reason to make a pilgrimage to the coast - a very practically one - SALT! Before fridges and freezers were invented, salt (and smoke) where the main methods to conserve food for a longer time. So there were also very practical reasons to make a pilgrimage to the coast ;-) Plus the shore was also heaving with valuable, easy to catch, protein at that time (fish and seafood). Forget about over fishing, that wasn't a problem at all at that time! I imagine it like this:

We need to get some more salt to make sure the meat we harvested hunting stays edible over the winter.
Let's go fishing also and pick up some mussels or fish in the process.
Oh, and isn't the sunset at the rock beautiful? It really reminds me of the end of days/lives/the world. And when the sun rises again, life is reborn ...

Practically and spiritual things are / were often very closely related and kind of symbolised each other ...
SY

PS Edited to correct the typos I found - there might be more ;-)

 

[Tincatinker]

Wow SY, really like this. And reminds me that parts of the routes from the Lincolnshire and Norfolk coasts down toward Ivinghoe are called The Pedars (Pedlars) Way but also THE SALTS WAY. Love it!!

 

[David]

Salt - in England there are still many roads called Whiteway - from the days when there were salt caravan routes, and part of a Roman Legionaries pay was in salt, from which we now have 'salary' - this is all such good stuff!

 

[Pelegrin]

Celts going west in Galicia looking for salt has sense.
The celticity of Galicia has been in discusion for a long time. But appart from its own name from (Gal)laecia there is some suspicious toponomy: Dumbria in Costa da Morte, with "Dum" like Dundalk, Dundee, Dunquerque, meaning "fort on a hill" and "bria" from briga (city). Rivers Támega and Tambre, with "Tam" like Thames meaning "dark river". River Cambás and Cambados, like river Cam (Cambridge), with "Cam" meaning crooked. Betanzos (Brigantium) and the región País de Bergantiños (from Brigantinos, Brigantia worshippers?). Lugo (Lucus Augusti) from god Lug?.
I don't know more, but probably there are.

 

[StuartM]

Salt - in England there are still many roads called Whiteway - from the days when there were salt caravan routes, and part of a Roman Legionaries pay was in salt, from which we now have 'salary' - this is all such good stuff!

I used to live on one of the old salt routes from brine and salt mines in Cheshire into Lancashire. My house was the boatman's cottage for the old crossing for the salt caravans when they reached the Mersey.

 

[vicrev]

Amazing,you have all mentioned different countries,cultures,there seems to be similarities,a common thread binding them together,I can't put my finger on it,what is it ?................still not a hint of nastiness.GREAT !!..............Vicrev

 

[thehappyhermit]

Some of the hilltop churches in England were built on old 'pagan' sites and are named St Michael and All Angels, referring to the defeat of Satan by St Michael. Many of these are on old pilgrimage routes, and some revived routes. Are there similar instances along the Camino too with churches dedicated to San Miguel y todos los Ángeles?
This would not prove a pre-Christian pilgrimage but might show where there were pre-Christian religious centres, which may have had some links with one another.

I like the idea of the Salt Road. Would these necessarily have headed west, why not north too through the mountain passes to the coast? Another idea to research maybe.
HH

 

[KinkyOne]

Recently I've finished reading Jacques Le Goff's - L'Europe est-elle nee au Moyen Age? (Was Europe born in Medieval Age?) and of course there are mentions of pilgrimages to Rome, Jerusalem and especially to Santiago de Compostela. In bibliography at the end you can find a short list of related books that might be interesting for Camino de Santiago history fans:

- Barreiro Rivas, Jose Luis, The Construction of Political Space: Symbolic and Cosmological Elements (Jerusalem and Santiago in Western History), Al-Quds University, The Araguaney Foundation, Jerusalem and Santiago, 1999
(La Funcion politica de los caminos de peregrinacion en la Europa medieval. Estudio del camino de Santiago, Editorial Tecnos, Madrid, 1997),

- Bennassar, Bartolome, Saint-Jacques-de-Compostele, Julliard, Pariz, 1970,

- Dupront, Alphonse, Saint-Jacques-de-Compostele. Puissance du pelegrinage, Brepols, Turnhout, 1985,

- Gicquel, Bernard, La Legende de Compostelle. Le livre de saint Jacques, Tallandier, Paris, 2003,

- Oursel, Raymond, Les Pelerins du Moyen Age: les hommes, les chemins, les sanctuaires, Paris, 1957,

- Vasquez de Parga, Luis, Jose Maria Lacarra & Juan Uria Riu, Las Peregrinaciones a Santiago de Compostela, Madrid, 1948-50,

- Vielliard, Jeanne, Le Guide de Saint-Jacques-de-Compostelle, Macon-Paris, 1981; Protat 1985.

Hope that will help someone

Ultreia!

 

[TerryB]

As for Christianisation of pagan sites, I am always a bit suspicious of that. I try to explain. The explanation I hear often from Pagan friends goes along the lines "The Church usurpated pagan sites of worship." like they did so intentionally (per decree), more likely is that allegiances changed over time, but people still used the same space, because they liked it and were used to it. So not by (Church) decree but by custom did this happen in many cases.

My comment in the thread- "Rules and Standards on the Camino: Do they exist? Should they?" reminded me of this thread!
Back in the day, one of my tutors suggested that, because of my interest, I should write a "paper" on Syncretism in the Church in Britain". Needless to say, I never got round to it being too busy doing, rather than thinking. However I do remember that one of the letters from Pope Gregory to Abbot Mellitus A.D. 601 (to be passed on to St. Augustine) contained directions to the effect that - "the temples of the idols in that country (England) should on no account be destroyed. . . . . For if the temples are well built, they are to be purified from devil-worship, and dedicated to the service of the true God. . . ."
Certainly there are a number of ancient sites where there is evidence of pagan worship which have been "Christianized". Rudston in East Yorkshire is a prime example, where the giant monolith in the churchyard was Christianized as the "Rood Stone".
Our Pagan friends have a point!
Blessings
Tio Tel

 

[SYates]

Lets just agree that both approaches did/do exist ;-) Human behaviour is rarely either-or but most of the time a mixture of both. Buen Camino, SY

 

[Pelegrin]

Reading again this interesting thread I have discovered a post of mine in which I talk about the "celticity" of Galicia. I say on my post that this point has been in discussion and introduce some toponomy in favour of that supposed "celticity".
Last year, for family reasons, I couldn´t spend money for holidays and I didn´t know what to do with my saved money. One day I thought Why not?. So I sent my DNA (and money) to be analysed. And the outcome was (Bingo!) : Haplogroup: R-P312, Origin : Celt.
So, now in case of a discussion about the Galician celticity I can give another reason apart from the toponomy.

 

[SYates]

Galicia has bagpipes - what could be more celtic? Buen Camino, SY

 

[nellpilgrim]

My father played the Uileann pipes and I love all pipe music but while the Celts adopted. adapted and transformed pipe music we didn't alas invent bagpipes. It seems likely that they were developed in the east (appearing on Hittite carvings etc) and that the Roman Empire popularised their use……but I agree that we Celts play them best of all!

 

[Deacon Jason]

My comment in the thread- "Rules and Standards on the Camino: Do they exist? Should they?" reminded me of this thread!
Back in the day, one of my tutors suggested that, because of my interest, I should write a "paper" on Syncretism in the Church in Britain". Needless to say, I never got round to it being too busy doing, rather than thinking. However I do remember that one of the letters from Pope Gregory to Abbot Mellitus A.D. 601 (to be passed on to St. Augustine) contained directions to the effect that - "the temples of the idols in that country (England) should on no account be destroyed. . . . . For if the temples are well built, they are to be purified from devil-worship, and dedicated to the service of the true God. . . ."
Certainly there are a number of ancient sites where there is evidence of pagan worship which have been "Christianized". Rudston in East Yorkshire is a prime example, where the giant monolith in the churchyard was Christianized as the "Rood Stone".
Our Pagan friends have a point!
Blessings
Tio Tel

Its important to remember that the process of Christianizing indigenous practices isn't an either/or proposition of the Church imposing or the local people adopting...for example, my parish has had a number of Nigerian priest who come from a culture that was predominately Animist in recent memory. As both local peoples and representatives of the Church, they tend to encourage those local practices that are compatible with the faith and discourage those that aren't--sometimes with explicit advice coming from Rome and often not.

For instance, Animist worship of ancestor spirits gets re-directed to the Catholic belief in the Communion of Saints and their veneration. While the theology might be quite different, from a practical standpoint they both may result in talking to Great-Grandpa before you go to bed!

 

[Deacon Jason]

Lets just agree that both approaches did/do exist ;-) Human behaviour is rarely either-or but most of the time a mixture of both. Buen Camino, SY

...What I just posted using too many words because I decided to reply before I finished reading the thread...sigh

 

[cj330]

So glad to see this thread still running nicely. SY's re-stating of the OP is maybe timely too. Maybe a re-visit: "pilgrims were following pre Christian tracks". Well sections of, say, the Pilgrims' Way in the UK certainly follow ancient chalk ridgeway tracks but only because they are there and going in the desired direction of travel. As SY has said, the Camino routes have meandered across the landscape in search of easy, safe passage and indeed as modern motorways have been built along those desirable routes the blessed pilgrim has been guided to the by-ways and quieter routes by the negotiating skills and yellow paint brushes of the amigos and associations. Those who have walked the Calzada Romana can be confident they have followed an ancient pilgrim route and indeed occasionally stepped on the very stones our forebears sandals kissed. When I walk The Ridgeway from Ivinghoe Beacon to Avebury and the other Wiltshire Henges I'm following a pre-historic "motorway" a trade route and drove-way and, who knows perhaps a route of pilgrimage for those making their way to the Neolithic temples that scatter the Wiltshire landscape.

"Why did the pre-christians go to Santiago" - they probably didn't. I can't find much on the pre-history of Galicia other than dear old Wikipedia, some snippets in the Labrinthos site www.labyrinthos.net and some hard-core academic stuff, but there are no obvious direct links. They probably walked right on past, at least until the Romans started all that "improving" of the infrastructure. I believe the destination, if it was such, was "World's End", the "Costa del Muerte".

This thread has given me a nudge for what this winter's home-work might be though. The myth is out there...

Hi @Tincatinker! I know this thread is rather old already, but would you be able to share some of the "hard-core academic stuff" you found? I've found a lot of non-academic sources, which I had posted in this thread: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/janus-to-venus.32261/#post-1003211
Would love to read up on academic findings.

Also would appreciate some input on this subject from anyone who commented here, and @Caplen I share you concern for attitudes here.... I'm beginning to find out that suggesting there may have been journeys that pre-date the Christian Camino route is a touchy subject in this forum

Absolutely! I haven't had time to contribute the last couple of days, but I have been thoroughly enjoying reading this thread.

When I started at this forum a couple of months ago, I was roundly spanked for making the mere suggestion of pagan influences on the Camino. I almost quit this place after less than a week. I'm so happy I stuck around, and so pleased with the positive tone and enthusiastic discussion.

Thanks for all the interesting input here! Can I suggest though, that the discussion not move to PM's? This is all of public interest for those inclined to click on the thread in the first place. I don't want to miss out!
cheers all,
Adrienne

 

[JabbaPapa]

why did the pre Christians go to Santiago ?

They didn't, given that it did not exist.

As to the pre-Christian tracks, there was a network of roads, whether Celtic or Roman.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Well, if for example the druids at Stonehenge and similar places

Stonehenge long predates the druids.

The Romans made an amazing network of well engineered roads. When the pilgrimage started, there had been little long distance travel through the dark ages, and the Roman roads were still the best routes available.

Here a picture I took of them building one, and what it looked like when I returned 2100 years later.
View attachment 6732

Only some Roman roads were like that -- generally, near towns and cities ; and where terrain requirements mandated it.

But most of them were dirt tracks -- though these too often involved engineering work.

I know that todays interpretation of burning the clothes or shoes at Finisterre is as symbol of casting off the old and starting anew, but maybe it came from slaying and burning animals (or humans in some cultures) in pre Christian ages???

AFAIK it's a "new" tradition started by modern pilgrims (and frowned upon locally).

The tradition in the Middle Ages was to cleanse yourself at Lavacolla, and then walk into Santiago refreshed and renewed. They then piled their hiking staves into large mounds in front of the Cathedral -- and from time to time, the city authorities would burn these mounds.

 

[Molly Cassidy]

I'm beginning to find out that suggesting there may have been journeys that pre-date the Christian Camino route is a touchy subject in this forum

I don't think anyone disputes that there were journeys that pre-date Christianity.

 

[cj330]

My understanding is that the pre Christians did not walk to Santiago but to The End of the Earth, Finisterra, where they believed the souls of their dead went where the sun sets. That is why some pilgrims still make that journey to Finisterra and wait at the lighthouse for the sun to set. It was also traditional for pilgrims to burn their clothes here as a way of casting off the old and starting anew. In reality they probably burned them because they were lice and bedbug ridden.

I think this explains it perfectly. It's true Santiago as the city did not exist at the time that Celts or other ancient peoples would be at Finisterre (although archaeologist have found numerous ancient artifacts from Celtic and Roman times underneath the city of Santiago, so there seems to have been some settlements there).
However, many pilgrims even nowadays continue to go on past Santiago to Finisterre for spiritual reasons outside of the standard of ending at the cathedral. The Celtic, Roman and Christian history in northern Spain all intersects with one another, so I think this is just as a valid of a "Camino" as the traditional one ending in Santiago..... I can confirm standing at cliff's edge on the Costa da Morte can really be a "spiritual" experience.
I think the sticking point for some is then calling it a "Camino".... since traditionalists will only see the path ending at Santiago and at the cathedral as a "true" Camino.

 

[cj330]

Stonehenge long predates the druids.

Only some Roman roads were like that -- generally, near towns and cities ; and where terrain requirements mandated it.

But most of them were dirt tracks -- though these too often involved engineering work.

AFAIK it's a "new" tradition started by modern pilgrims (and frowned upon locally).

The tradition in the Middle Ages was to cleanse yourself at Lavacolla, and then walk into Santiago refreshed and renewed. They then piled their hiking staves into large mounds in front of the Cathedral -- and from time to time, the city authorities would burn these mounds.

Frowned upon locally? In what way? The municipalities of both Fisterra and Muxia offer their own certificates (Fisterrana and Muxiana) to pilgrim's who end there.... have you experience distaste from locals when going there?

 

[Molly Cassidy]

Frowned upon locally? In what way? The municipalities of both Fisterra and Muxia offer their own certificates (Fisterrana and Muxiana) to pilgrim's who end there.... have you experience distaste from locals when going there?

I think it is the burning things which is frowned upon, not visitors generally.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I think it is the burning things which is frowned upon, not visitors generally.

Quite.

 

[cj330]

I think it is the burning things which is frowned upon, not visitors generally.

Well, that I can definitely understand. In addition to being a nuisance to the community, I find the "burning" aspect really wasteful too.

 

[Tincatinker]

Hi @Tincatinker! I know this thread is rather old already, but would you be able to share some of the "hard-core academic stuff" you found? I've found a lot of non-academic sources, which I had posted in this thread: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/janus-to-venus.32261/#post-1003211
Would love to read up on academic findings.

Also would appreciate some input on this subject from anyone who commented here, and @Caplen I share you concern for attitudes here.... I'm beginning to find out that suggesting there may have been journeys that pre-date the Christian Camino route is a touchy subject in this forum

@cj330 www.labyrinthos.net has an excellent bibliography and can lead you down a thousand rabbit holes.

As to a "touchy" subject. The Forum has rules. I'm sure you've read them. So long as members post within those rules and their posts relate to Camino there is no problem - as this thread exemplifies.

A couple of other resources: https://sashamaps.net/images/roman_roads_iberia_v2.5_140.png; https://www.megalithic.co.uk/index.php

 

[pasiño a pasiño]

What I know is that Santiago was not an important place, rather a "Castro" = a celtic settlement before the romans and after by "Sueben" Latin = Suebi/Suevi.
There was a cemetery, which is why experts derive the name Compostela from compostere or something like that.

 

[Tincatinker]

Campo Stelae - Field of grave markers. Not so hot as a tourist destination

 

[Rebekah Scott]

You want a trail with pre-history and some academic backing? Check out the Via Mariana, from Portugal up to the Galician coast, moving from one sacred spring/holy well/backwater church/castro to another, while avoiding the madding crowd. http://viamarianalusogalaica.eu/?fb...r9KqGz7di4WkzyVE9-Fc8WyXRUMmiytMXsmEF86zlykIE

 

[C clearly]

I think this is just as a valid of a "Camino" as the traditional one ending in Santiago

Nobody is saying that it wouldn't be as valid an experience. Whether it is a "Camino" or not depends on whether you consider "Camino" to be a short form of "Camino de Santiago de Compostela". By definition, surely the "Camino" ends in Santiago, no matter what your spiritual inclination.

 

[Tincatinker]

Camino translates - Spanish to English - as: Way; Path; Road; Journey; Course; Trail, and a few more. So Camino is both a physical and metaphysical thing - a road and the journey along it. For me when I make my Way along the Northern and French routes to Muxia and our broken boat or to Finis Terre I am en camino and also on Pilgrimage. I am making a journey to a place sacred in my tradition.

If I walk to Santiago, if I undertake Camino de Santiago, by any of the thousand ways I am making pilgrimage to the remains of one who may have touched the divine. If I walk the "Frances" or the Vasco or any of the others that coincide I will always pause and give thanks to Santo Domingo, the road-builder, at his shrine. Not so much pilgrimage but with heartfelt thanks. I'll brush my hand through the nettles of the Montes de Oca, a nod to San Juan and another builder of "the Way".

It is my heartfelt and profound belief that "pilgrims" made their way west through Iberia for many reasons and for many millennia. Of course its un-provable though the Mithraic remains in and around Lugo, Boveda in particular, the Piedras de Pie found throughout but concentrated in Galicia. The high numbers of neolithic burials in Galicia https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=neolithic+burials+galicia&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart proportionate to the anticipated population all give clues, hints, suggestions of purpose and reason.

So yes, the Camino(s) de Santiago end in Santiago, hugging that statue or on your knees in front of that glittering box but Camino is just the journey we all undertake through life to wherever it is we go next.

Buen Camino a todos

 

[C clearly]

An interesting new thread has started in this thread Pagan Origins of the Camino. In order to keep the discussions somewhat organized/chronological, since they are on the same subject, I am locking this thread and referring you to the other one for ongoing discussion.