Primitivo vs. Frances

[Robert Z]

My title may be convey a competition between the two, however that was not my intention.

I originally was planning the Frances for my first Camino. The time may simply be too long and I want to be at the start and finish - no parts of routes.

If I were to do the Camino Primitivo, am I missing out by not doing the Frances? Is the Frances the main Camino?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Is the Frances the main Camino?

Yes.

 

[Robert Z]

Yes.

Haha, so you're saying that the Primitivo is not really a true Camino?

 

[KinkyOne]

Haha, so you're saying that the Primitivo is not really a true Camino?

As I 've heard the Primitivo WAS the "first" or "original" Camino (sorry for using maybe non-adequate words, but you know what I mean) in Spain, only centuries later streams of pilgrims switched to "Frances" as we call it today.
I know there are numerous forum members that can tell you much more about this. Wait a little bit

 

[Robert Z]

As I 've heard the Primitivo WAS the "first" or "original" Camino (sorry for using maybe non-adequate words, but you know what I mean) in Spain, only centuries later streams of pilgrims switched to "Frances" as we call it today.
I know there are numerous forum members that can tell you much more about this. Wait a little bit

Hey again, Kinky One. I did read about that. Interesting stuff.

I just don't wanna feel like I'm "missing out" by doing the Primitivo. Maybe I'm being foolish in thinking that way.

 

[wayfarer]

There is no main Camino, the Frances is more popular because it is the one everyone knows about due to books and movies and because it also gained World Heritage status. There are many Caminos to Santiago from all over Spain, france and Europe, there is even one from Ireland. Pilgrims left on boats from St James Gate in Dublin, Dingle and many other ports and made their way to A Coruna and walked from there to Santiago. The Frances was my first Camino and I loved it, I want to do it again as there is just something about it which I cannot explain that keeps calling you back. At the end of the day its your choice.
Buen Camino.

 

[KinkyOne]

Hey again, Kinky One. I did read about that. Interesting stuff.

I just don't wanna feel like I'm "missing out" by doing the Primitivo. Maybe I'm being foolish in thinking that way.

You just can't be "missing out" whatever Camino you take

 

[Robert Z]

Ya, it could very well be because of the movie that I feel I'd be missing out by doing the Primitivo. I guess the bonus of taking that route is that I could go to Finnistere(?).

 

[Damien Reynolds]

You can go to Finnesterre or Muxia or both from either the Frances or the Primitivo. The Primitivo actually hooks up with the Frances in Melide, which is about 2 days out of Santiago.

If you are short on time, one cool thing about doing the Primitivo is that you'll be able to feel like you did the "whole" thing (which is I think one definition of not missing out?). Now I know a ton of folks just got ready to pounce on me after reading that because there is no such thing as a "whole" camino, but when I have to join the Frances in Leon instead of SJPdP in order to finish, or I can join the Primitivo in Oviedo to finish, then I understand the difference between "whole" and "part". For me that actually kind of means something. Others will think it is lame because by the time you are in Sarria on the Frances you'll realize that only a proportion of people actually are doing the "whole" thing, but they've most all certainly had meaningful and mostly enjoyable experiences.

At the end of each camino I've realized it was less about where I was or how much of the path I've covered and more about the people I met along the way. You have the opportunity to make lasting special friendships and meet incredible people on either route.

At the end of each camino I've also ended up feeling like I was missing out somehow because its not 3 months after i've finished that I start making my plans for the next, regardless of the path or length of time I've chosen previously.

Now this isn't going to be popular, and again its just my experience and your mileage may vary, and others will disagree, but the least enjoyable Camino for me was when I started in SJPdP but only had time to get to Leon. Right when the group was really starting to gel, right when people could catch that faint whiff of Santiago, when flirtations were turning to chemistry, I had to up and bail, get in a taxi and then on a plane. The worst was looking at my new friends' facebook posts later from my work desk as they made their way to Santiago and beyond... that is missing out.

So I've rambled a little and apoligize but I guess the jist is this: I don't think the route matters or how much of it you've done as much as the people you meet and the sense of accomplishment you feel by reaching Santiago together.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

My title may be convey a competition between the two, however that was not my intention. I originally was planning the Frances for my first Camino. The time may simply be too long and I want to be at the start and finish - no parts of routes. If I were to do the Camino Primitivo, am I missing out by not doing the Frances? Is the Frances the main Camino?

CF is the "main" as in main = most well know due to books and movies. But main as in 1st, and nowadays closer to introspection = Primitivo. If you are looking for a "Camino family" go CF; if you are looking for peace and quiet, finding yourself and pure beauty, go for Primitivo. Both end up in Santiago. Unless you know who well you do alone, and challenged, I would say go CF. When that starts to feel like going to Disney Land, look at the dozen + other Caminos. If you want to collect Compostelas, what about Tui, to Santiago, to Finisterre to Muxia. You'll get a whole lot of compostelas for only a couple of days on walking.

 

[MichaelC]

I've debated the same thing myself for my first camino. For me, in the end, the Camino Frances has an iconic status (I read that somewhere on here) that does seem to set it apart.

How much time do you have? I can fully empathize with wanting to finish in Santiago, and not have to leave en route. But it seems like a lot of people start somewhere in Spain rather than Saint Jean. Maybe you could start in Pamplona, or another town x number of days from Santiago.

 

[Tia Valeria]

I would favour the Primitivo over the Francés. It is the ancient historical route, although now with some modern diversions as on the CF. It passes through amazing countryside and old villages as well as some towns. It is much, much quieter than the Francés but is becoming busier. The infrastructure is improving all the time so that the distances are better between accomodation. You also do experience the Francés after the Primitivo joins it at either Palas de Rei or Melide.
You do not say when you plan to walk. The Primitivo, as a first Camino, is more suited to May to September/October IMO -partly due to possible weather conditions.
If you are seeking a quieter Camino with contact with fellow pilgrims then this would be good. If you are seeking a Camino as portrayed in films like The Way then the Francés would provide it. Personally I thought that The Way was a great film but it confirmed me in the feeling that the Francés was not for me and the Primitivo was the right camino for me.
Buen Camino whichever you choose.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The first recorded pilgrimage across the Pyrenees to the shrine of Saint James is that of the bishop Godescalc of Le Puy-en-Velay in the Auvergne region.This occurred in the winter of the year 951.


The monk Gomez of the monastery of Abelda recorded that Godescalc left Le Puy, then part of Aquitaine, with a large entourage of pilgrims in order to, “reach in haste the lands of Galicia to implore the mercy of Christ and the approbation of Saint James”.


Gomez copied a manuscript of Ildefonsus of Toledo concerning the Virginity of Mary, the Madonna, as a gift for Godescalc to take back to France with him.

While that is probably not the first pilgrimage ever, it set the modern tradition, and it was generally the Camino Frances once it reached Roncesvalles.

 

[Robert Z]

Thank you all for the great comments.

Some of you I knkw have seen my other thread regarding doing the Frances in 32-35 days. Also, a little mention of my past hikes and treks over large expanses .

Seeing as how I am at the stage of my life where I am going to get married later this year or next and start a family, I believe that I had to shorten my trip to 21-22 days. That way I don't need a leave of absence for two weeks at work (which they approved), however it's obviously without pay. Also, I want to complete a route, have more introspection, more mountains and less crowds. However, I'm sure the Frances is amazing and I would love to do it someday. The Way had such an influence on me.

So there are my reasons.

I am now thinking to do the Camino Salvador and Camino Primitivo. I believe 21 days is ample time? This would include travel days. Could I go to Finnesterre as well?

Thanks again.

 

[peregrina2000]

Hi, Robert,
Congratulations on your upcoming marriage! A camino and a wedding in the same year is a pretty auspicious start to 2105.

You will never regret having chosen the Salvador/Primitivo combination. It's wonderful. The main things you will be "missing out" on are the crowds and the high degree of commercialization on the Frances. Don't get me wrong, I love the Frances, but the routes you have chosen are kind of a throwback to the pre-commercialization Camino days. Not too many pilgrims, but enough to form those camino bonds, good albergue system, and a real "Camino feel" (hard to describe, but you'll know what I mean when you get there).

Not sure how many travel days you will need, but in terms of walking, I think the "average" rate on the Salvador is 4 days (comes out to 4 days at 30 km each more or less), and 11 or 12 on the Primitivo. You can of course speed it up if you are a stronger walker.

My stages are here: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/back-from-the-primitivo-june-2012.14728/ and here
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/my-stages-on-the-camino-primitivo.4841/

One is an 11 day Primitivo, the other was for 12. (I also see that there are some posts on these threads from people who walked the Primitivo as their first camino, and they have no regrets!)

Then to Finisterre/Muxia would be another 3 days (4 if you went to both of them). I think you've got the perfect wiggle room alternative here -- see how many days you have left when you arrive in Santiago and then either walk to Finisterre and or Muxia or take a bus out to see the end of the earth.

Good luck with this, buen camino, Laurie

 

[Tia Valeria]

The first recorded pilgrimage across the Pyrenees to the shrine of Saint James is that of the bishop Godescalc of Le Puy-en-Velay in the Auvergne region.This occurred in the winter of the year 951.


The monk Gomez of the monastery of Abelda recorded that Godescalc left Le Puy, then part of Aquitaine, with a large entourage of pilgrims in order to, “reach in haste the lands of Galicia to implore the mercy of Christ and the approbation of Saint James”.


Gomez copied a manuscript of Ildefonsus of Toledo concerning the Virginity of Mary, the Madonna, as a gift for Godescalc to take back to France with him.

While that is probably not the first pilgrimage ever, it set the modern tradition, and it was generally the Camino Frances once it reached Roncesvalles.

We like the stone set at one of the gates in Lugo, in 1996, recording the pilgrimage of Alfonso ll in the early 9th century (approx 830)

In the early 9th Century, between 820 and 830 A.D., the Bishop Teodomirus announced the discovery of the remains of St. James, the disciple of Our Lord Jesus Christ. A shepherd / hermit named Pelayo had seen mysterious lights on a hillside, accompanied by angelic voices. On investigation, the bishop and his men discovered three stone coffins which held the remains of St. James and his two companions. The site near the Roman seaport of Iria Flavia, modern Padron, was named Compostela - Field of Stars.

On hearing of the discovery, Alfonso II, king of Asturias, made the first recorded pilgrimage to the tomb of Santiago. Guided by the Milky Way he travelled from his capital city of Oviedo, through the mountains to Lugo and then down the Roman road, the Via Romana Lucus Iria Flavia to Compostela. The route he took is now known as the 'Camino Primitivo', the 'Ancient Road'.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I would favour the Primitivo over the Francés. It is the ancient historical route, although now with some modern diversions as on the CF. It passes through amazing countryside and old villages as well as some towns.

This is very interesting to me. I keep seeing picture of "abandoned villages" along the Camino, and have yet to see one. Are they along the Primitivo - which I will walk, come hail or high water in May and June.

 

[TerryB]

This is very interesting to me. I keep seeing picture of "abandoned villages" along the Camino, and have yet to see one. Are they along the Primitivo - which I will walk, come hail or high water in May and June.

On the Primitivo there are many empty / abandonded houses as well as a number of villages.
One of the most iconic villages is Soutomerille between Castroverde and Lugo. The houses and church are all totally abandoned and falling into ruins.
From Lugo to Melide, many of the small villages have empty houses and the population consists mainly of elderly country folk - the children have left home and moved into towns and cities.
Also just off the Primitivo after leaving Lugo is the ancient temple / church crypt at Santa Eulalia de Boveda with its 6th. century (A.D.580?) wall paintings.
http://www.turismo-prerromanico.com...a-eulalia-de-bveda-20130209014644/#ad-image-0
The guide to the Camino Primitivo from the English Confraternity, ( http://www.csj.org.uk/product/los-caminos-del-norte-f-camino-primitivo/ ) gives good details of churches and other ancient sites.

Blessings on your planning and walking
Tio Tel

 

[raverider]

Hi Robert - congrats on your upcoming wedding and camino!

I am in the process of preparing for my first camino, and have settled on the Primitivo (other considerations being the Norte and Frances). There are a few reason for this, which have essentially all been listed above in other responses. Am getting very excited! Just hope the weather will play along

Regards,
Marty

 

[Robert Z]

Hi Robert - congrats on your upcoming wedding and camino!

I am in the process of preparing for my first camino, and have settled on the Primitivo (other considerations being the Norte and Frances). There are a few reason for this, which have essentially all been listed above in other responses. Am getting very excited! Just hope the weather will play along

Regards,
Marty

Hey Marty, good luck on your Camino!

To all, I'm not sure if I'll be getting married this year but I am going to propose in March. She's just waiting for me

I think I'm definitely settled on the Primitivo and Salvador. I see that TerryB put up a link to a guide. Is that the generally accepted guide? Can anyone else recommend a guide, preferably paper-book copy, that I can plan and take with me on the Camino?

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Robert Z]

Oh and I plan on going in Mid July to early August ... yes I know it'll be hot

 

[TerryB]

I think I'm definitely settled on the Primitivo and Salvador. I see that TerryB put up a link to a guide. Is that the generally accepted guide? Can anyone else recommend a guide, preferably paper-book copy, that I can plan and take with me on the Camino?

I am not sure that I would want to rely on the CSJ guide on its own. We used it with notes written in from the CICERONI, "The Northern Caminos" (heavy, weight-wise) and the GRONZE (online) guides. The CSJ guide is paper back and unwanted pages can easily be removed.
The guide to the Salvador written by Forum member Rebekah Scott can be downloaded from here:-
http://www.csj.org.uk/planning-your-pilgrimage/csj-guides-and-updates/

Blessings
Tio Tel

 

[norelle]

I think the Salvador/Primitivo is a good option - I'm planning on traveling that way in June!

buen camino

 

[peregrina2000]

Hey Marty, good luck on your Camino!

To all, I'm not sure if I'll be getting married this year but I am going to propose in March. She's just waiting for me

I think I'm definitely settled on the Primitivo and Salvador. I see that TerryB put up a link to a guide. Is that the generally accepted guide? Can anyone else recommend a guide, preferably paper-book copy, that I can plan and take with me on the Camino?

Thanks again everyone.

Hi, Robert, In addition to Rebekah's guide, you should look at Ender's guide. http://www.slideshare.net/caminodelsalvador/guia-ingles-del-camino-del-salvador This is much longer, lots of pictures, and you may find it helps you annotate Rebekah's shorter guide.

For the Primitivo, if you read Spanish, I would highly recommend the Eroski website. They have a section with printable downloadable detailed guides. http://caminodesantiago.consumer.es/llevatela-al-camino/ I think it would be all you would need, but you may want to annotate it with ebrant's document as well as mundicamino's and other websites' listing of accommodation. The Eroski site, http://caminodesantiago.consumer.es/ is very up to date and has good walking instructions. I've walked several caminos with nothing other than Eroski, including the Primitivo, the Vdlp and Sanabres.

 

[Pelgrimpaul]

I walked several camino's and still have the idea that the CF was the camino that provided 'my' best camino experience.
The stages along the route and the way this is visualized in the landscape: physical beginning, mental middle, rebirth end. (As Camino del Norte or even Primitivo are more of the same (with exceptions).
The way I began to like the bars and cafe's with red parasols along the route as important places (how diferent as on the Camino del Norte or the Primitivo, or Ingles..).
The diversity of people walking the route.
Yes, I think the CF is the best first camino to walk,
even with the many people performing the same;-)

"The value of each camino is in the heart of the beholder." My words ;-)

 

[Robert Z]

I walked several camino's and still have the idea that the CF was the camino that provided 'my' best camino experience.
The stages along the route and the way this is visualized in the landscape: physical beginning, mental middle, rebirth end. (As Camino del Norte or even Primitivo are more of the same (with exceptions).
The way I began to like the bars and cafe's with red parasols along the route as important places (how diferent as on the Camino del Norte or the Primitivo, or Ingles..).
The diversity of people walking the route.
Yes, I think the CF is the best first camino to walk,
even with the many people performing the same;-)

"The value of each camino is in the heart of the beholder." My words ;-)

I like certain ideas about the Frances, that's definitely true. I also think I've been really sold by The Way movie that it's a part of rationale on the Caminos. However, I am looking for introspection and natural beauty (I LOVE MOUNAINS!). It seems that perhaps the Primitivo and Salvador were chosen or me given my constraints ... and I don't mean that in a negative way whatsoever

 

[MichaelC]

I ran some numbers through a spreadsheet, just to see what a few of the differences between the Camino Francés and Camino Primitivo would be. All of these are based on the stages on Guía del Camino Francés (gronze.com):

León to Santiago (Camino Francés):
13 days, 316 kilometers, 80.25 hours of walking (includes variation to Samos)
Average pace: 24.3 km / day, 6.2 hours of walking per day
One hard day (Vega de Valcarce to Triacastela), two long days (over seven hours of walking)

León to Oviedo (Camino del Salvador) to Mélide (Camino Primitivo) to Santiago (Camino Francés):
18 days, 434.5 kilometers, 113.25 hours of walking
Average pace: 24.1 km per day, 6.3 hours of walking per day
Two hard days (Buiza to Pajares, Pola de Allande to La Mesa), six long days

Santiago de Compostella to Finisterre:
4 days, 88.2 kilometers, 22.25 hours of walking
Average pace: 22.1 km / day, 5.56 hours of walking
No hard days, one long day (8.25 hours Negreira to Olveiroa)

 

[SYates]

The stages really depend on you only and not on some guide! "Vega de Valcarce to Triacastela" in one day, not in my wildest nightmares hopefully!!!! SY

 

[KinkyOne]

I like certain ideas about the Frances, that's definitely true. I also think I've been really sold by The Way movie that it's a part of rationale on the Caminos. However, I am looking for introspection and natural beauty (I LOVE MOUNAINS!). It seems that perhaps the Primitivo and Salvador were chosen or me given my constraints ... and I don't mean that in a negative way whatsoever

First of all - congratulations for your upcoming marriage

I too love mountains and I was also a climber. When asked by "valley people" what exactly I do like up there so much I have to admit that being up there is what I like the most. Much more than walking to there

Keep us posted, Robert!
Ultreia!

 

[Robert Z]

I ran some numbers through a spreadsheet, just to see what a few of the differences between the Camino Francés and Camino Primitivo would be. All of these are based on the stages on Guía del Camino Francés (gronze.com):

León to Santiago (Camino Francés):
13 days, 316 kilometers, 80.25 hours of walking (includes variation to Samos)
Average pace: 24.3 km / day, 6.2 hours of walking per day
One hard day (Vega de Valcarce to Triacastela), two long days (over seven hours of walking)

León to Oviedo (Camino del Salvador) to Mélide (Camino Primitivo) to Santiago (Camino Francés):
18 days, 434.5 kilometers, 113.25 hours of walking
Average pace: 24.1 km per day, 6.3 hours of walking per day
Two hard days (Buiza to Pajares, Pola de Allande to La Mesa), six long days

Santiago de Compostella to Finisterre:
4 days, 88.2 kilometers, 22.25 hours of walking
Average pace: 22.1 km / day, 5.56 hours of walking
No hard days, one long day (8.25 hours Negreira to Olveiroa)

Wow, I appreciate the effort!

I think Damien kind of hit the nail on the head about doing a whole route. I feel that if I did the Frances, I would have to start in SJPDP. I know it's not a big deal to start down the line, but for me it's just how I feel. I wanna complete full routes.

That's why I'm thinking the Salvador and Primitivo.

Plus one the biggest draws of the Frances for me is the Pyranees portion.

 

[Robert Z]

First of all - congratulations for your upcoming marriage

I too love mountains and I was also a climber. When asked by "valley people" what exactly I do like up there so much I have to admit that being up there is what I like the most. Much more than walking to there

Keep us posted, Robert!
Ultreia!

Thanks for the kind words

I totally get it. Every time I've been in the mountains I feel clear. It's hard to explain. Just a peace you can't find everywhere.

 

[JohnMcM]

"The value of each camino is in the heart of the beholder." My words ;-)

.............. and very fine words they are my friend.
Buen Camino

 

[KinkyOne]

Thanks for the kind words

I totally get it. Every time I've been in the mountains I feel clear. It's hard to explain. Just a peace you can't find everywhere.

Or should I say my condolences to you?

 

[peregrina2000]

Wow, I appreciate the effort!

I think Damien kind of hit the nail on the head about doing a whole route. I feel that if I did the Frances, I would have to start in SJPDP. I know it's not a big deal to start down the line, but for me it's just how I feel. I wanna complete full routes.

That's why I'm thinking the Salvador and Primitivo.

Plus one the biggest draws of the Frances for me is the Pyranees portion.

Hi, Robert,
I can assure you that the kms from Buiza to the town of Pajares is every bit as beautiful and majestic (though perhaps the peaks are a little lower) as the first day out of SJPP. Buen camino, Laurie

 

[ebrandt]

Hi, Robert,
I can assure you that the kms from Buiza to the town of Pajares is every bit as beautiful and majestic (though perhaps the peaks are a little lower) as the first day out of SJPP. Buen camino, Laurie

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Laurie -- What spectacular pics -- they make me wish we had time to walk the Salvador this summer! Liz

 

[Robert Z]

Hi, Robert,
I can assure you that the kms from Buiza to the town of Pajares is every bit as beautiful and majestic (though perhaps the peaks are a little lower) as the first day out of SJPP. Buen camino, Laurie

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View attachment 15698

Great pictures! I'm still on the fence of going or not at all but these images are hard to refute.

 

[Kiwi-family]

It seems to me that everyone who walks the Salvador/Primitivo combo LOVES it. I have yet to hear anyone say "I wouldn't do that again."
Basically for the OP it comes down to opportunity cost - for whichever choice is made, there will be consequences.
And chances are high that the Camino will still be there in a couple of years if he wishes to return and try another route.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Hi, Robert,
I can assure you that the kms from Buiza to the town of Pajares is every bit as beautiful and majestic (though perhaps the peaks are a little lower) as the first day out of SJPP. Buen camino, Laurie

View attachment 15700 View attachment 15701

View attachment 15698

These pictures are magnificent, you can feel the magic. Reminds me of Lord of the Rings. My boss keeps telling me that I don't need to go walk the same place every time (meaning Spain) - these images, together with the ones I took of del Norte this fall and those from past CF walks really show that even if it is the same country, it is far from walking the in the same place. Plus, as a Spanish citizen I love discovering "my own" country. Ok, so perhaps I will also apply this to Canada and walk in NewFoundland ;0)

 

[Robert Z]

These pictures are magnificent, you can feel the magic. Reminds me of Lord of the Rings. My boss keeps telling me that I don't need to go walk the same place every time (meaning Spain) - these images, together with the ones I took of del Norte this fall and those from past CF walks really show that even if it is the same country, it is far from walking the in the same place. Plus, as a Spanish citizen I love discovering "my own" country. Ok, so perhaps I will also apply this to Canada and walk in NewFoundland ;0)

I am from Canada, Anemone. Last summer I went all across Newfoundland. I also spent some time in Gros Morne and hiked the mountain there. It it was one of the most beautiful places I have ever seen. Go to Newfoundland if you can!