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Reducing carbon - arriving by ferry to Bilbao/Santander or train from Barcelona

DavidPoyser

New Member
Time of past OR future Camino
July 2023
I am trying to cut down on carbon. I am just doing the end (from a couple of stops before Sarria). I am happy to get a taxi for the last bit. Has anyone got the train from Barcelona (it all seems to go via Madrid), the sleeper from Paris to the French Border, or taken the 33 hour boat from Portsmouth to Bilbao/Santander. I want to minimise time in hotels and get walking. thanks!!!
 
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Yes, I'm trying to cut down on carbon, too... but I seem to burn everything in the frying pan these days..
Oh, wait! To save on carbon footprint with flying? Where are you trying to get to Sarria from?
 
Your questions about the transportation options are confusing, as they don't seem to be the same journey.
  1. Train from Barcelona, not Madrid - Are you starting your journey from Barcelona? If not, why must you go through there?
  2. Train from Paris to French border, but then you need to get close to Sarria
  3. Boat from Portsmouth to Bilbao, and then somehow get close to Sarria
Any comparison of the carbon footprints would need to consider the entire journey from home to destination.
 
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I took a sleeper from Paris to Bayonne for my first Camino. But as that was in 1990 my experience for that trip may not be very helpful! :cool: The train connections on the Paris - Hendaye - Irun - Pamplona route are quite poor these days as high-speed trains between Paris and Madrid are now mostly routed via Barcelona.

Have you considered travelling by bus? Slow but cheap and direct. Flixbus could take you from Paris to Leon. I've posted a screenshot of an example journey. ALSA have several buses per day from Leon to Pedrafita de Cebreiro. And there are local buses from Pedrafita to Triacastela and Sarria.
Screenshot_2023-02-20-23-07-06-336~2.jpg
 
Thanks everyone. I am very adaptable. I just want to get to Sarria with the minimum of travel time, EITHER by ferry (it takes two days and two nights but having got to Bilbao/Santander then it seems difficult to get there in a day by train as you go via Madrid). OR by train from Paris. I mentioned Barcelona (or Figueres) as that seemed to be where most trains go from Paris (though there are - or were- sleepers from Paris to Latour de Carol or Cerbere but then the next trains seem to take you to Barcelona and then Madrid. I think Hendaye sleepers have stopped). My only carbon footprint comparison was with flying, v v happy with anything else. Bus does seem like the best option. Many many thanks
 
I am trying to cut down on carbon. I am just doing the end (from a couple of stops before Sarria). I am happy to get a taxi for the last bit. Has anyone got the train from Barcelona (it all seems to go via Madrid), the sleeper from Paris to the French Border, or taken the 33 hour boat from Portsmouth to Bilbao/Santander. I want to minimise time in hotels and get walking. thanks!!!
Where are you starting from? If the UK, take Eurostar to Paris and local trains from there?
 
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Yes, thanks, I am starting fro the UK. I was wondering if anyone had experience from Paris (or going by boat. Given that you are two nights and a day on the ferry, and you have a night/early start in the UK and then one in Barcelona, the time works out the same time-wise)
 
Yes, thanks, I am starting fro the UK. I was wondering if anyone had experience from Paris (or going by boat. Given that you are two nights and a day on the ferry, and you have a night/early start in the UK and then one in Barcelona, the time works out the same time-wise)
But why go through Barcelona? The ferry docks in Santander, which has good bus and train connections all over N. Spain.
 
Thanks, it was details from Santander (and/or Bilbao) I was asking about. I had thought there would be good bus and train connections but they didn't seem that 'good' (they seemed to involve going to Madrid, and very slow trains). Sorry if I wasn't clear, EITHER I would take a ferry to Santander/Bilbao, OR take the train from Paris (and the train websites directed you Paris-Barcelona-Madrid and in all it seemed a good 16 hours of travel in Spain)
 
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Thanks, it was details from Santander (and/or Bilbao) I was asking about. I had thought there would be good bus and train connections but they didn't seem that 'good' (they seemed to involve going to Madrid, and very slow trains). Sorry if I wasn't clear, EITHER I would take a ferry to Santander/Bilbao, OR take the train from Paris (and the train websites directed you Paris-Barcelona-Madrid and in all it seemed a good 16 hours of travel in Spain)
I am pretty sure there is a train from Santander to Leon, either a very slow local train or an expensive express train. There is also a line that follows the coast to Gijon. Both very picturesque. Here is the rome2rio link to Oviedo. From here, there will be buses onwards, or you could walk the Primitivo instead.


The thing is, the closer you get to your start point, the more you will be relying on slow local transport anyway. From Madrid to your start point is probably no easier than from Santander.
 
While planes have a large carbon footprint, avoiding a plane ride through trains/ferries/buses/taxis that take a circuitous route is not a solution. You can fly from London to A Coruña and just start walking or fly to SdC and take a bus to Sarria. I’d argue that it’d be less carbon output than those other much-longer journeys (especially getting to Barcelona!)
 
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There is a train link from Santander to Leon, but you need to change in Palencia. I have taken the train from Santiago (it stops in Sarria) to Barcelona and it is a very scenic (and long-- 12h20) trip. Think of the Scots & other engineers who built the line 160 years ago.

Look at the site recommended by @Corned Beef as the carbon expended can be surprising -- there are routes which are better in an aeroplane!
 
There are so many travel options to get you to your start point. As others have already posted you will almost certainly need to break your journey with a couple of changes. For example, there is a coach from Santander to Oviedo, along the coast, and then a change down to Leon which is a major city along the Camino. From there you can get a train or coach to more or less anywhere. I would start by looking at the main cities along the route which all have great bus and coach connections.

Here´s the link to Alsa the long distance bus network https://www.alsa.com/en/web/bus/home

Good luck
 
I came upon this post, and it strikes me as apt.
Posted late 2022 by a then moderator. @Tincatinker.
I got called a “Climate Change Denyer” on here a few months ago but hey, we all need to be someone’s boogaboo.
Anyone wanting to calculate an anything like accurate carbon cost for any given journey by any given means should take into account the carbon cost of the super-computer required to process the calculations.

One common conflation is the Ccost of a flight London to Madrid against a rail journey. Trouble is most of the available calculators will use the same Crow-flies distance for both journeys. Another is that most if not all the publically available calculators apply expended carbon based energy ie consumed fuel as the entire cost base. There is no consideration of for instance Road, Rail or Airport construction and maintenance. No consideration of local energy sourcing and no consideration of individual journey makers consumption of resources other than fuel.

The reason? It’s too bloody difficult.

That’s why I plant trees. And walk to the shops and the pub and for pleasure.


(The best way to be carbon neutral? Just die.)
My bracketed piece there is definitely tongue in cheek, but it is true. No more breathing, no more effect on the planet.

For goodness sake, I hope this does not cause your thread to be closed off, OP. I just think that while your intentions are good, you may need to do a bit more sleuthwork to actually reduce your carbon footprint.
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
I came upon this post, and it strikes me as apt.
Posted late 2022 by a then moderator. @Tincatinker.
I got called a “Climate Change Denyer” on here a few months ago but hey, we all need to be someone’s boogaboo.
Anyone wanting to calculate an anything like accurate carbon cost for any given journey by any given means should take into account the carbon cost of the super-computer required to process the calculations.

One common conflation is the Ccost of a flight London to Madrid against a rail journey. Trouble is most of the available calculators will use the same Crow-flies distance for both journeys. Another is that most if not all the publically available calculators apply expended carbon based energy ie consumed fuel as the entire cost base. There is no consideration of for instance Road, Rail or Airport construction and maintenance. No consideration of local energy sourcing and no consideration of individual journey makers consumption of resources other than fuel.

The reason? It’s too bloody difficult.

That’s why I plant trees. And walk to the shops and the pub and for pleasure.


(The best way to be carbon neutral? Just die.)
My bracketed piece there is definitely tongue in cheek, but it is true. No more breathing, no more effect on the planet.

For goodness sake, I hope this does not cause your thread to be closed off, OP. I just think that while your intentions are good, you may need to do a bit more sleuthwork to actually reduce your carbon footprint.
So many things to consider. I often wonder about the cabon footprint of the manufacturing process of wind turbines, electric vehicles etc, but that is for another day..


OP,
if you're taking the ferry to Santander, a bus to Lugo with a change to Sarria seems a simple enough option. Time wise, you're already choosing a slow option by taking a ferry. Bus, even if it went all around the houses, would seem very fast by comparison..
 
It is possible, subject to my previous comments quoted by @Kirkie above, that a direct flight London to SdC and a bus ride to Sarria will have a lower carbon cost than any other possible route or transport combination. Ferries, burning heavy fuel oil, are massive particulate generators. Rail network construction / maintenance has huge environmental impacts (and political https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64717605 ) even though the trains run on renewable resourced electricity.

This is not a poke at the OP though it is going to seem like one: If you want to go for a nice 100km walk in interesting countryside and with some sort of meaningful destination but minimise your carbon impact walk locally, walk where you live. In the UK walk Southwark to Canterbury, or Reading to Southampton, or the Cuckmere Pilgrims Trail.

If you want to make pilgrimage to the shrine of St James then do it but find ways of off-setting the carbon cost with everything you do with the rest of your life.
 
There may be something I am missing here.
If you are travelling from the UK wouldn't it be better to get a flight direct to Santiago and travel to Sarria (or close to where you wish to start) and walk your Camino back to Santiago. There are direct flights from Gatwick and Stansted This would minimise your carbon footprint and travelling time. The travel options you are considering would be more carbon producing (and much more time consuming).
 
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It is possible, subject to my previous comments quoted by @Kirkie above, that a direct flight London to SdC and a bus ride to Sarria will have a lower carbon cost than any other possible route or transport combination. Ferries, burning heavy fuel oil, are massive particulate generators. Rail network construction / maintenance has huge environmental impacts (and political https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64717605 ) even though the trains run on renewable resourced electricity.

This is not a poke at the OP though it is going to seem like one: If you want to go for a nice 100km walk in interesting countryside and with some sort of meaningful destination but minimise your carbon impact walk locally, walk where you live. In the UK walk Southwark to Canterbury, or Reading to Southampton, or the Cuckmere Pilgrims Trail.

If you want to make pilgrimage to the shrine of St James then do it but find ways of off-setting the carbon cost with everything you do with the rest of your life.
Our posts crossed. So sorry for much of the duplication.
 
The reason why flying is so carbon intensive is you are taking a machine weighing more than 400,000 lbs. More than doubling its weight with fuel then trying to fight gravity for the length of time it is in the air.

Gravity does an excellent job in keeping our feet planted firmly on the ground. Use something that doesn’t fight gravity
 
I am trying to cut down on carbon. I am just doing the end (from a couple of stops before Sarria). I am happy to get a taxi for the last bit. Has anyone got the train from Barcelona (it all seems to go via Madrid), the sleeper from Paris to the French Border, or taken the 33 hour boat from Portsmouth to Bilbao/Santander. I want to minimise time in hotels and get walking. thanks!!!
I'm taking the train from Newcastle to London, Eurostar to Paris, then sleeper from Paris to Latour de Carol (Spanish border). Local train to Barcelona, then AVE Train to Vigo via Madrid, then local train from Vigo to Porto.
 
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Hi @DavidPoyser
I've variously done all the options you've suggested (although not all for camino trips). However, timetables change regularly and some services I've taken no longer exist. So my experience with the travel schedules I've used would not help you in determining minimum hotel usage.
However, based on current timetables and available services and your desire to start from somewhere like Astorga (?), if I were you then I'd pick (non-sleeper) train: Eurostar on morning of day 1, TGV on afternoon of day 1, hotel in Hendaye or Irun, metro to San Sebastian on morning of day 2, San Sebastian to Astorga by Renfe (change at Vitoria/Gasteiz) on day 2.
I'll just add that I'm not you! ;-p Please pick what is best for you.
 
if I wasn't clear, EITHER I would take a ferry to Santander/Bilbao, OR take the train from Paris (and the train websites directed you Paris-Barcelona-Madrid and in all it seemed a good 16 hours of travel in Spain)

@DavidPoyser, for travel by train, the two meaningful options are from Paris via Barcelona and from Paris via Hendaye/Irun. Minimum travelling time is more or less the same for both options.

The train booking websites often propose only Paris via Barcelona. To look at the second option, it is best to ask for Paris to Hendaye and then from Irun to Santiago or Sarria. You will have to add the bit of time that it takes you to get from Hendaye train station to Irun train station but this transit time is negligible in this context.
 
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I'm taking the train from Newcastle to London, Eurostar to Paris, then sleeper from Paris to Latour de Carol (Spanish border). Local train to Barcelona, then AVE Train to Vigo via Madrid, then local train from Vigo to Porto.
Any idea of the total kms of such a route? Not “as the crow flies” but actual traveled kms? Curious how that plays out in carbo footprint vs a direct flight to Porto
 
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According to Google Maps it would be about 2050miles/3300km

View attachment 142019
I agree with Tincatinker and Bristle Boy that flying into SdC and a bus to Sarria would more than likely be less of a carbon footprint overall. The rigamarole of the other sounds like an annoying nightmare to me when there is a simple flight option available for the majority of the trip.
 
I am pretty sure there is a train from Santander to Leon, either a very slow local train or an expensive express train. There is also a line that follows the coast to Gijon. Both very picturesque. Here is the rome2rio link to Oviedo. From here, there will be buses onwards, or you could walk the Primitivo instead.


The thing is, the closer you get to your start point, the more you will be relying on slow local transport anyway. From Madrid to your start point is probably no easier than from Santander.
Thanks.
 
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There is a train every day at 09;30 from Barcelona Sants to A Coruna. It doesn't go via Madrid (which would be quicker on the AVE) but goes up the Ebro and across Spain via Zaragoza, Pamplona, Burgos, Leon and the Sil valley by which time it's usually about an hour late. Change at Monforte de Lemos (arr 20:18, dep 20:42) for the connection to Sarria, arr 21:15. There's a later connection at 23:42, arr Sarria 00:18. Good luck.
 
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The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
Kathar1na said:
However, the trains have not yet been built and as far as I understand it these tunnels are not on the high-speed railway tracks
Also, the scandal is not so much about the mistake being made but about the fact that is was discovered two years ago and has been made public only now. At least that’s how I understand it. This fact is often lost in current international news reporting …
 
Also, the scandal is not so much about the mistake being made but about the fact that is was discovered two years ago and has been made public only now. At least that’s how I understand it. This fact is often lost in current international news reporting …


Indeed!
When in doubt, go to one of the more serious newspapers ( factchecking! ) in Spain.

 
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Agree that fact checking is important (see #12 and#20) but sometimes, just sometimes the wonders of the engineering mind can be humorous.

In the Kremlin there is a display of cannons where the cannonballs don't fit. In Stockholm harbour the Vasa, the 'ultimate warship', sank on launch as it was too top heavy. Spanish trains continue the long line of such engineering wonders.

But at their heart is someone not checking data or assuming fact checking was checking facts. Just like this thread.
 
But at their heart is someone not checking data or assuming fact checking was checking facts. Just like this thread.
A positive aspect of this thread it that it might encourage readers to have themselves a closer look at CO2/passenger/km values for trains for their own journeys. The table you posted earlier gives 6g for "Eurostar" and an average of 41g for "National [British] rail". All three values for flights are higher than 150g in the table.

The French SNCF indicates 1,73g for their high-speed TGVs, and the Spanish AVE trains have similarly low values. That's impressive. One does not have to be .... fill in the blanks. 😶
 
it was details from Santander (and/or Bilbao) I was asking about. I had thought there would be good bus and train connections but they didn't seem that 'good' (they seemed to involve going to Madrid, and very slow trains).
Funnily enough, these are exactly the slow trains of the FEVE network that are currently even in international news. These trains run slower than Usain Bolt. Quote [translated from Spanish] - Santander is the capital of Cantabria:

The current Cantabrian trains run at a speed slower than Usain Bolt's record in the 100 meter sprint. The latest data published on FEVE trains is 38.5 km/h; Bolt ran at 44.72 km/h. The president of the Cantabrian government said that "people take food and card games" on their train journey to keep themselves entertained.

Peregrinos returning from Santiago rave about these slow FEVE train journeys while the local commuters yearn for faster modern trains. They will now have to wait two years longer than promised, due to the current fiasco. BTW, the first design of these new trains would have allowed them to pass through the old tunnels, it's just that they would not have fulfilled modern safety standards as to minimum distances to walls and ceilings of some of the old tunnels.
 
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St James' Way - Self-guided 4-7 day Walking Packages, Reading to Southampton, 110 kms
Sadly, overnight trains to Spain and Portugal are not what they were. I believe the only route with an overnight component now is the Paris - Latour de Carol route, but that gets you into Barcelona too late for many connections. I've travelled the day route from Paris to Hendaye, and from there to San Sebastian several times: the last bit along the coast is lovely, though by then the TGV has turned into a TPV. and dawdles along. I can do it in one long day from my home near Cambridge.

seat61.com, always a reliable starting point for train travel, gives timings for trains from San Sebastian to SdC changing either in Madrid or at Vitoria/Gastiez. A combination of train and long distance buses might also work.

The Paris-Barcelona-Madrid route is longer, and usually more expensive than the Hendaye route, but it's enjoyable, particularly the section along the coast in the South of France. Again, it's a long day's journey from the UK to Barcelona. If you took a very early train to Madrid the next day you could probably catch the bus to arrive in Pedrafita do Cebreiro that afternoon.

Hope that helps a bit.
 
Sadly, overnight trains to Spain and Portugal are not what they were. I believe the only route with an overnight component now is the Paris - Latour de Carol route, but that gets you into Barcelona too late for many connections. I've travelled the day route from Paris to Hendaye, and from there to San Sebastian several times: the last bit along the coast is lovely, though by then the TGV has turned into a TPV. and dawdles along. I can do it in one long day from my home near Cambridge.

seat61.com, always a reliable starting point for train travel, gives timings for trains from San Sebastian to SdC changing either in Madrid or at Vitoria/Gastiez. A combination of train and long distance buses might also work.

The Paris-Barcelona-Madrid route is longer, and usually more expensive than the Hendaye route, but it's enjoyable, particularly the section along the coast in the South of France. Again, it's a long day's journey from the UK to Barcelona. If you took a very early train to Madrid the next day you could probably catch the bus to arrive in Pedrafita do Cebreiro that afternoon.

Hope that helps a bit.
I have read all the answers to this post and was surprised no one mentioned seat61.com and there on the last it is.
Seat 61 is the go to site for train travel in Europe but give yourself lots of time to look at it it's addictive.
 
I am trying to cut down on carbon. I am just doing the end (from a couple of stops before Sarria). I am happy to get a taxi for the last bit. Has anyone got the train from Barcelona (it all seems to go via Madrid), the sleeper from Paris to the French Border, or taken the 33 hour boat from Portsmouth to Bilbao/Santander. I want to minimise time in hotels and get walking. thanks!!!
As I happen to live in walking distance of Plymouth I catch the ferry to Santander then straight onto the Camino del Norte. I appreciate I'm very lucky and don't have to take a long haul flight.

Out of interest in 1390 Richard II licensed pilgrims to exit England via Plymouth without obtaining the king's permission.
 
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It's nice to hear someone else taking carbon footprint into consideration when travelling. And that means avoiding travelling by plane whenever possible. I don't point any fingers at those who do fly, but stating that a plane journey sometimes emits less co2 than a similar train journey, is simply never true.

For that reason, I am travelling by train to Léon in april. I am taking the route Antwerp (11:30)-Brussels-Paris-Barcelona (21:36). Then I stay overnight at Barcelona and take the train to Madrid at 6:30). I arrive in Léon at 13:30. Although tempting to take a day to explore Léon, I will start walking immediately for approximately 10 km to where I stay the night. I hope that is realistic (it is my first camino).

I can fully appreciate your statement that time is precious and you want to limit travel time to a minimum. But I hope I can convince you to look at it differently. Taking the time to travel the distance to that foreign destination is part of the mental process of letting go of your regular home life and preparing for your pilgrimage. It can not be rushed and needs time otherwise spent anyway during your walk. In my opinion, despite all its practical uses, there is something particularly unnatural about the experience of flying and travelling at such speeds.

Either way, I hope you have a wonderful trip!
 
A few years ago I travelled the Renfe FEVE route from Ferrol to Santander, FEVE station (via Oviedo). This not Santander Renfe Station. The FEVE line is a narrow gauge railway. It is a slower, leisurely journey along the lovely northern coast of Spain. Doing this journey in the opposite direction from Santander FEVE Station would allow you to walk the Camino Inglés from Ferrol.
 
If you want to make pilgrimage to the shrine of St James then do it but find ways of off-setting the carbon cost with everything you do with the rest of your life.

This is what we do.
We offset air travel with tree planting and also whilst not directly related to 'carbon' offsets, we ensure positive impacts are created as we 'consume' accommodation and meals along the Camino.
This approach spills over into other day to day aspects back home.
 
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Interesting as it is the calculation of a carbon footprint and total (current) carbon emmisions are two sides of the same coin. The same but different.
No matter how much the pack is shuffled with regard to what means of transport to be used to get fro A to B there will be no difference to the total global ammount of carbon emitted into the atmosphere. What has been eschewed still remains.it is freedom of choice.
If the concern is a carbon footprint then the decision is to stay at home and not travel. It will have no impact on carbon emmisions whatsover unless everyone does that (the recent pandemic demonstrated this) The other alternative is to live your life to the fullest and with responsibility and as long as humans have been on this planet and fire discovered we have been contributors to carbon emmision.









L
 
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I don't point any fingers at those who do fly, but stating that a plane journey sometimes emits less co2 than a similar train journey, is simply never true.
Indeed. It is counterintuitive but definitely verifiable for anyone in Europe who wants to travel on modern fast speed trains (Eurostar, TGV, AVE etc) to any point in Spain and uses the carbon footprint norm as a measure: CO2e for train per kilometre and passenger is much less than for plane per kilometre and passenger and this even applies when the train journey is three times as long in kilometres and even much longer in time than the flight. Inspired by an earlier question, I grabbed an old envelope and worked it out for a journey like yours but then apparently did not post the result, thinking it's so easy, everyone will have worked it out already for themselves. 😶

I've been thinking of taking the train to Santiago if and when I travel there the next time and reading posts by @OlivierF, @DavidPoyser, @DirtAmy and @diverdavey (apologies if I forgot somebody) who have done such a train trip or have concrete plans for doing so this year encourages me to follow their example and spend the time and money ... thanks, folks!
 
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It is counterintuitive but definitely true for anyone in Europe who wants to travel on modern fast speed trains (Eurostar, TGV, AVE etc) to any point in Spain and uses the carbon footprint norm as a measure.
I think we want to avoid a long discussion on co2 accounting here, but it must truly be quite a convoluted train journey to get close to an airplane flight in terms of co2 emissions :) See for example https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint#:~:text=So the footprint of Eurostar,20.5 kg CO2e.

Co2 accounting is a weird little beast ... in the details of the Kyoto climate agreement, forests burned in biofuels plants in the Netherlands emit no co2 on paper (but similar to petroleum in reality), nor does the whole American military emit any co2 (which is actually larger than the whole plastic industry). This automatic exemption was done away with in the Paris climate agreements, but only barely. The countries can now choose themselves to include it in their total co2 emissons or not.

In the end, if I really want to cut down on co2, I should stay and home and do not long distance travelling at all (which I have done for almost ten years now), or die :) It's just that train seems like the less of two weevils (to quote Master & Commander).
 
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I think we want to avoid a long discussion on co2 accounting here, but it must truly be quite a convoluted train journey to get close to an airplane flight in terms of co2 emissions :) See for example https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint#:~:text=So the footprint of Eurostar,20.5 kg CO2e.

Co2 accounting is a weird little beast ... in the details of the Kyoto climate agreement, forests burned in biofuels plants in the Netherlands emit no co2 on paper (but similar to petroleum in reality), nor does the whole American military emit any co2 (which is actually larger than the whole plastic industry). This automatic exemption was done away with in the Paris climate agreements, but only barely. The countries can now choose themselves to include it in their total co2 emissons or not.

In the end, if I really want to cut down on co2, I should stay and home and do not long distance travelling at all (which I have done for almost ten years now), or die :) It's just that train seems like the less of two weevils (to quote Master & Commander).
I could not agree more. The discussion is far too broad and more suited to a different platform.
Unfortunately it was the question asked in the first instance.
 
I think we want to avoid a long discussion on co2 accounting here
Yes, I guessed already that you guys are well-informed and know what your doing and why you are doing it and feel no need for justification 😇. Still, I looked up the CO2e values for the modern French and Spanish high-speed trains and was surprised just how low the output is. I guess this has to do with the energy mix in these two countries and where the train operators buy from.
 
Unfortunately it was the question asked in the first instance.
Perhaps you misread the first question? The poster asked about details for specific ferry and train connections. He mentioned by way of introduction that he wants to cut down on carbon. He did not ask for personal opinions on cutting down on CO2 emissions but was then given it by various posters. Which then caused a reaction from other posters.

Questions about how to get to Spain for walking on a Camino and exchanging information and experience concerning getting to a Camino starting point in Spain are most definitely within the remit of this platform.
 
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To get your journey off to a great start with the intention of reducing a carbon footprint could I offer this suggestion.
Assuming your travels start with a train journey from Newcastle to London (or anywhere else for that matter) timing could be your friend.
Pick the early morning trains as they are heavily populated with commuter passengers rather than the later less populated one.
Both options emit the same CO2 but think of the positive effect this will have on your footprint. You might be packed in like sardines and it makes passenger counting problematic (especially if not an express) but it gets your footprint reduction off to a great start.

Hope this helps.
 
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France has introduced a law that had been challenged by French airport owners in the context of European competition law but it has now been found to be compliant and it will be implemented soon or has already been implemented: Short domestic flights within France will be abolished if an alternative direct rail link of less than 2.5 hours is available. Exact conditions and details can be consulted here but there are many other sources than this French government website. Originally, the lawmaker had intended a duration of 4 hours as the cut-off time but this got watered down to 2.5 hours.

I sometimes wonder how many pilgrims it would take to have an individual regular short-haul domestic flight to Biarritz or Santiago or Pamplona cancelled for lack of sufficient passengers or even have an airline's regular flight connection abolished for good because a sufficient number of people make the switch to the train journey ... ? I roll my eyes in front of my screen each time a pilgrim who is already considering a high speed train journey in France or Spain is advised to take a short-haul flight instead because it's cheaper or faster or more convenient ... pilgrims appear to be in such a hurry to travel to a town where they can start living the exemplary slow simple non-consumerist life for a short while ... 😶
 
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I roll my eyes in front of my screen each time a pilgrim who is already considering a high speed train journey in France or Spain and is then advised to take a short-haul flight instead because it's cheaper or faster or more convenient ... pilgrims appear to be in such a hurry to travel to a town where they can start living the slow simple non-consumerist life for a short while ... 😶
The supposed savings in time and cost between short flights and high-speed trains are often not fully considered. The flight itself may be cheap but the associated costs may be quite high. Think of London to Paris for example. 2 hours 20 minutes journey time from city centre to city centre by train. No travel between city centre and the airports at either end and a shorter check-in and security procedure for boarding. Even more of an advantage for domestic journeys. And then there are all the additional charges which low-cost airlines love to pile on!

A video commentary for those who are not easily offended. :cool:

 
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France has introduced a law that had been challenged by French airport owners in the context of European competition law but it has now been found to be compliant and it will be implemented soon or has already been implemented: Short domestic flights within France will be abolished if an alternative direct rail link of less than 2.5 hours is available. Exact conditions and details can be consulted here but there are many other sources than this French government website. Originally, the lawmaker had intended a duration of 4 hours as the cut-off time but this got watered down to 2.5 hours.

I sometimes wonder how many pilgrims it would take to have an individual regular short-haul domestic flight to Biarritz or Santiago or Pamplona cancelled for lack of sufficient passengers or even have an airline's regular flight connection abolished for good because a sufficient number of people make the switch to the train journey ... ? I roll my eyes in front of my screen each time a pilgrim who is already considering a high speed train journey in France or Spain is advised to take a short-haul flight instead because it's cheaper or faster or more convenient ... pilgrims appear to be in such a hurry to travel to a town where they can start living the exemplary slow simple non-consumerist life for a short while ... 😶
As to train vs air travel in France/EU remember the French Government owns the trains but not the Airlines . The trains are completely unionized but the airlines much less
 
As to train vs air travel in France/EU remember the French Government owns the trains but not the Airlines. The trains are completely unionized but the airlines much less.
What an amazing variety of aspects can be found to be introduced into this thread. 🤭

But this reminded me that, quite some time ago, I had learnt that Pedro Sanchez' government had considered a similar prohibition of short-haul flights for the Spanish domestic market. I checked whether my level of knowledge was still up to date today.

If this recent article of 15 February 2023 and similar ones in the Spanish press are correctly describing the current state of affairs, they've abandoned the plan to follow France's lead because the current Spanish Transport Ministry is of the opinion that the switch of passengers from the air to the rail sector is already taking place "naturally", with travellers benefitting from the development of the Spanish high-speed network. Be that as it may, I noticed in recent weeks how often forum members advise pilgrims to pre-book their train ticket to or from Compostela / Madrid because AVE trains and other long-distance high-speed trains get booked out quickly. There appears to be some change going on.

The article also mentions a future AVE station at Madrid Barajas airport. I guess Camino pilgrims would very much welcome such a connection. It appears from other recent articles that works have already started in terminal T4 for a direct connection to Chamartin for high-speed trains ... Chamartin is where the fast trains for Santiago leave (as well arrive from Santiago).

PS: Don't be afraid of actually reading the February article. It is aviation-friendly. At least in my most humble and modest personal opinion. 😑
 
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And there we have it!
As interesting as calculating a carbon footprint is to the OP whichever travel option that is taken makes no difference to the overall picture. It is what it is and the status quo remains.
It was interesting to read on this thread of the low carbon emmiting train coming into operation. The use of Hydrogen as a means of fuel as opposed to the fossil alternatives is welcome. Also of interest was the efforts to remove short haul flights from the equation if alternatives exist to replace. This issue is something that the EU is attuned to and does remarkably well and will have an effect.
I wish the OP well in their travels and to enjoy whatever lies ahead. Neutralise whatever choice is made with regard to the means of travel by offsetting your own contribution to what already exists.
 
I was thinking yesterday how peregrin@s often wax lyrically about how their $$$s and €€€s - and occasionally even their £££s ;) - support the local economy. Perhaps one or the other starts to reflect about how their choices support the domestic transport economy ... just because you fly at home doesn't mean that you have to fly within Spain and you don't have to be a railway nutter to travel by train.

Spain has now the longest high-speed network in Europe, France comes in second place after having been in the lead for a long time - but I guess we all know that. Modern technology and HS trains are one element of many in the puzzle of how to reduce carbon dioxide output overall - the locomotives of these modern French and Spanish trains don't run on diesel ...

I actually did not know all this about Spain (from a SIEMENS website):

Spain was by then [in 1989 !], and still is, one of the most ambitious countries in Europe when it comes to public transport. In the past decades the government has invested large amounts of money in new infrastructure and new rolling stock. In 1988 it was decided to start building the first high speed lines, that, as they could become part of a pan-European network in a distant future, had to meet European standards. This resulted in a complete new type of infrastructure on the Iberian peninsula. These new lines have 1435 mm European gauge (Iberian gauge is 1668 mm) tracks and a 25kV AC voltage system (3 kV DC is used for the classic network). Next to this, there is always the ongoing discussion in Spain to redesign the complete railways system for 1435 mm gauge. However, as this is very expensive, it is unlikely that it will ever happen.
 
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For your future Camino planning ... privilege the purple and red lines ... they are not everywhere where there is a railway track. 😎
(Click to enlarge)
HS rail.jpg

Source: Wikipedia (EN), High-speed rail in Europe (2019???)
 
The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
For your future Camino planning ... privilege the purple and red lines ... they are not everywhere where there is a railway track. 😎
(Click to enlarge)
View attachment 142498

Source: Wikipedia (EN), High-speed rail in Europe (2019???)
Great map!

I have just been on a very long bus journey with no Wi-Fi but was playing around with European train timetables (as Wi-Fi not needed) as I have a rail pass to use soon. Quite interesting to see how speedy it can be with a 0701 London departure getting you into SJDP at 1818 as an example but generally seeing how quick it is nowadays for many parts of Europe and how even one improvement in a train line can have ramifications for the rest of Europe. I know the Berlin to Munich line for example has been ‘speeded up’ in recent times.
 
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Of course what is not being mentioned with regard to emmisions is something conveniently ommited which does not apply to ferries or air travel and is the elephant in the room.
Apart from a point of departure and arrival and some monitoring neither requires an infrastructure to enable its operation.
Road transportation and rail need a massive ammount of infrastructure to operate, both initially and under constant maintenance.
When discussing rail transport some calculation needs to be made with regard to what is emitted during its initial and ongoing construction and maintenance from quarrying and transportation of ballast, the wood or concrete for sleepers, the destruction of thousands/millions of trees, steel production for rails, the construction of tunnels not to mention the ecological damage with alteration to the geography of the countryside.
Rail transport is not the panacea when all things are considered and they need to be.
 
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I think the reason that OP mentioned Barcelona is that France and Spain generally use different rail gauges, apart from the Paris to Barcelona line. That's why you tend to have to come via Barcelona when entering Spain by train.
 
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