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The big map o the Caminos de Santiago

Relics of the camino

sillydoll

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2002 CF: 2004 from Paris: 2006 VF: 2007 CF: 2009 Aragones, Ingles, Finisterre: 2011 X 2 on CF: 2013 'Caracoles': 2014 CF and Ingles 'Caracoles":2015 Logrono-Burgos (Hospitalero San Anton): 2016 La Douay to Aosta/San Gimignano to Rome:
#1
In the middle ages, one of the most important pilgrim duties was to visit the various relics along the roads to Santiago.
The most bone tingling, goose-bump moment for me on the camino was gazing, awe-struck, at a relic - a piece of stained fabric the size of a dishcloth which has been preserved in a modest chamber in the cathedral in Oviedo for over 1300 years. History and scientific studies claim that this 84cm X 53cm piece of cloth was used to cover and clean the face of Jesus after his crucifixion. Together with the Shroud of Turin, it is the most tested Christian relic in the world. Its history is well documented and much more straightforward than that of the Shroud of Turin.
According to the 12th Century Book of the Testaments of Oviedo, and the Chronicon Regum Legionensium, until 614 the sudarium was in Palestine. When Jerusalem was attacked and conquered by the Persians it was taken in a 'Holy Ark' together with other precious relics, first to Alexandria, then across to North Africa, then into Spain, going first to Seville and then to Toledo with St Isidore where it stayed for 75 years. When the Arabs invaded Spain it was taken north to Oviedo. On 14th March 1075 the chest was officially opened in the presence of King Alfonso VI, his sister Doña Urraca, and Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar (el Cid). A list was made of the relics that were in the chest. These included fragments of the Cross, crumbs from the Last Supper, relics of the Virgin Mary and the Twelve Apostles and the sudarium, the cloth that had covered the face of Christ.
How does it compare with the Shroud of Turin?
Over the years many sophisticated, forensic experiments have been done on the fabric and on the blood, fluid, pollens and residues of myrrh and aloe. Scientific results show that:
"The blood on both the sudarium and the shroud belong to the same group, namely AB. The length of the nose through which the pleural oedema fluid came onto the sudarium is exactly the same length as the nose on the image of the shroud. When the shroud is placed over the stains on the sudarium the most obvious coincidence is the exact fit of the stains with the beard on the face. A small stain is also visible on the right hand side of the man's mouth. This stain is hardly visible on the shroud, but VP-8 and photo enhancements have confirmed its presence. The thorn wounds on the nape of the neck coincide perfectly with the bloodstains on the shroud. Polarized Image Overlay Techniques have been applied to the sudarium, comparing it to the image and bloodstains on the shroud. The frontal stains on the sudarium show seventy points of coincidence with the shroud, and the rear side shows fifty. The only possible conclusion is that the Oviedo sudarium covered the same face as the Turin Shroud."
Experts say that, "All the studies carried out so far point in one direction, with nothing to suggest the contrary, the sudarium was used to cover the head of the dead body of Jesus of Nazareth from when he was taken down from the cross until he was buried."
Goose-bump stuff indeed!
"Quien va a Santiago y no al Salvador, visita al criado y deja al Señor" says the old proverb. (Whoever goes to Saint James and not to the Saviour, visits the servant and misses the Master.)
Sil
 

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#3
sillydoll said:
Experts say that, "All the studies carried out so far point in one direction, with nothing to suggest the contrary, the sudarium was used to cover the head of the dead body of Jesus of Nazareth from when he was taken down from the cross until he was buried."
which "experts" are they then?? Wikipedia has a more balanced view http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarium_of_Oviedo and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_ ... _of_Oviedo
More detail on the Spanish version http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Sudario_de_Oviedo
 

sillydoll

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2002 CF: 2004 from Paris: 2006 VF: 2007 CF: 2009 Aragones, Ingles, Finisterre: 2011 X 2 on CF: 2013 'Caracoles': 2014 CF and Ingles 'Caracoles":2015 Logrono-Burgos (Hospitalero San Anton): 2016 La Douay to Aosta/San Gimignano to Rome:
#4
Ho, ho - Wikipedia the most reliable???? You can't be serious?? Are you?? Nah!!

All the credit for the investigations carried out on the sudarium are credited to Guillermo Heras and his investigating team at The Spanish Centre for Sindonology. The medical part of the investigation was done by Dr. José Villalaín and Dr. Max Frei analysed the pollen samples taken from the cloth which found species typical of Oviedo, Toledo, North Africa and Jerusalem. This confirmed the historical route described. (There was nothing relating the cloth to Constantinople, France, Italy or any other country in Europe.)
In 1999, Mark Guscin, a member of the multidisciplinary Investigation Team of the Centro Español de Sindonología, issued a detailed forensic and historical report entitled, "Recent Historical Investigations on the Sudarium of Oviedo." Guscin's report detailed recent findings of the history, forensic pathology, blood chemistry, and stain patterns on the Sudarium. His conclusion: the Sudarium and the Shroud of Turin had been used to cover the same injured head at closely different times.

I don't think the Veronic (veil) was known as such until the Middle Ages.
 

sillydoll

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2002 CF: 2004 from Paris: 2006 VF: 2007 CF: 2009 Aragones, Ingles, Finisterre: 2011 X 2 on CF: 2013 'Caracoles': 2014 CF and Ingles 'Caracoles":2015 Logrono-Burgos (Hospitalero San Anton): 2016 La Douay to Aosta/San Gimignano to Rome:
#5
Peter, the Wikipedia link you sent differs substantially from the report in that it disputes what Dr Max Frei reported. It claims that " No traces of spices have been found on the cloth" whereas Dr Frei reported that: "Residues of myrrh and aloe have also been discovered.... ".
I don't know enough about forensic medicine, forensic photography, or about forensic botany or criminology -the late Dr. Frei was a botanist and Swiss criminologist - to argue these points with you.
My post was about the amazing emotion that I felt being in the presence of the relic - and, my dear fellow peregrino, I am not a Christian. But then, I had the same shivers down my spine when I stood in front of the Pyramids at Giza and we still don't know who really built them.
 
#6
Again from Wiki

"It has often been assumed that the Veronica was present in the old St Peter's in the papacy of John VII (705-8) as the chapel known as the Veronica chapel was built during his reign, and this seems to have been the assumption of later writers. ............. Furthermore, contemporaneous writers make no reference to the Veil in this period. It would appear however that the Veronica was in place by 1011 when a scribe is identified as been keeper of the cloth.
However, firm recording of the veil only begins in 1199 when two pilgrims named Gerald de Barri (Giraldus Cambrensis) and Gervase of Tilbury made two accounts at different times of a visit to Rome which made direct reference to the existence of the Veronica. Shortly after that, in 1207, the cloth became more prominent when it was publicly paraded and displayed by Pope Innocent III 1297, who also granted indulgences to anyone praying before it. ......... During the 1300 Jubilee the Veronica was publicly displayed and became one of the "Mirabilia Urbis" ("wonders of the City") for the pilgrims who visited Rome. For the next two hundred years the Veronica was regarded as the most precious of all Christian relics."

It would seem then that the Veronica appears in Italy at about the same time as the Sudarium does in Spain.
 

sillydoll

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2002 CF: 2004 from Paris: 2006 VF: 2007 CF: 2009 Aragones, Ingles, Finisterre: 2011 X 2 on CF: 2013 'Caracoles': 2014 CF and Ingles 'Caracoles":2015 Logrono-Burgos (Hospitalero San Anton): 2016 La Douay to Aosta/San Gimignano to Rome:
#7
And, perhaps, James in Spain!
These great stories, wonderous legends and mystical myths have given us romantic roads to follow. So what if Buddha never was in Muktinath or if Kobo Dishi didn't build the 88 temples on Shikoku, or if James never evangelized in Iberia. We all follow the ancient paths because we need to find rest for our souls. How much poorer would we all be as humans if we had never believed in fairies, angels or Father Christmas!
 

Arn

Moderator
Staff member
#8
Sil,

I am in awe of the length and breath of your knowledge on all matters. My Daughter Romi would be totally stunned that I would apply that accolade to anyone but myself. You must tell me more about your background, interests (though this appears obvious).

I've been a military historian (among other things) for most of my life, I've traveled the world over from Giza to Petra, Kirkeness to Siberia (not officially), etc,etc. I've lived in the South of the Philippines, the mountains of the Hindu Cush and walked in the footsteps of Alexander. And in all that time, in all those places, I've never come across anyone with such a wide ranging body of knowledge as yours. Experts in a given field, yes, but all encompassing, NO!

Then again, I consider my beautiful Ida, and I can see her undying quest for knowledge in all that you've shared here with us. How remarkable!

Arn
 
#9
Arn,
I second your post. Sil is a fountain of knowledge and she has anchored this forum for ages. Her measured comments and observations are from a person who speaks objectively. Although she professes not to be a Christian, which allows her to see things as they are, she has done more than most Christians in terms of visits to places Christian pilgrims aspire to go to e.g Lourdes, European Cathedral such as Burgos to its ostentious past, Camino a few times, and where else?

It is a joy to read her postings but it would be interesting to hear the comments of her better half who did the latest Camino with her?

Grandpa Joe
 

sillydoll

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2002 CF: 2004 from Paris: 2006 VF: 2007 CF: 2009 Aragones, Ingles, Finisterre: 2011 X 2 on CF: 2013 'Caracoles': 2014 CF and Ingles 'Caracoles":2015 Logrono-Burgos (Hospitalero San Anton): 2016 La Douay to Aosta/San Gimignano to Rome:
#10
Thank you kind sir - what a nice compliment! May I suggest that you just have a soft spot for 'boere mesies' from south of the Equator?
I am not well travelled (besides the pilgrimage treks), main interest is reading and - as I'm sure you have guessed - I am a camino junkie!
I sincerely hope that you are writing a book on your life as a story. It is so easy to self-publish these days and what a lovely legacy to leave for your children and their children.
Dios les bendiga,
 

sillydoll

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2002 CF: 2004 from Paris: 2006 VF: 2007 CF: 2009 Aragones, Ingles, Finisterre: 2011 X 2 on CF: 2013 'Caracoles': 2014 CF and Ingles 'Caracoles":2015 Logrono-Burgos (Hospitalero San Anton): 2016 La Douay to Aosta/San Gimignano to Rome:
#11
Grandpa Joe, you would like my man. Finn is a South African born of Norwegian parents and his grand-father started a Lutheran mission in what was then Zululand. He is a down-to-earth, solid citizen and has been my champion for over 40 years. What he is not is a long distance walker, but I really wanted him to share some of the camino experience with me and finally, this year, I was able to twist his arm to join us in Sarria and walk the last 100kms to Santiago. He was a star! After one day, without any fuss, he somehow managed to change our morning routine, slow down our pace and got us stay up later at night! What fun!
Our younger son is in a wheelchair and both of us have been involved with disabled people for 30 years. Finn has travelled the world with 'his' disabled sports team (he is leaving for Cairo tomorrow).
Did you know that last year 11 pilgrims in wheelchairs completed the camino? I took this picture of a Spanish guy in Arzua who had started in Pamplona. Amazing feat.
Abrazos,
 

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Arn

Moderator
Staff member
#12
Does it never stop. Sil, we are of a mind, that's for sure!

It's probably obvious by now that I served in the forces. When I retired I looked for the "perfect" new occupation and was always told...find a job you love and you'll never have to go to work! In 1993, I began working with sailors with disabilities as first, Head sailing instructor and then National Director of Sailing for a national program called Shake-A-Leg in Newport R.I. We also had boats in Miami, Florida. Since that time, and in conjunction with US Sailing (the US national governing body for the sport of sailing) I've certified over 200 sailing instructors/counselors from all over the world. This coming January, I will present a lecture on "Teaching Sailors with Intellectual Disabilities" at the US Sailing Symposium in St Pete, FL.

I've been asked to start up a program in Virginia that will include specially designed "adapted" sailboats (Access Dinghies). Our participant base will be: high/low level spinal cord injuries, the intellectual disabled and mentally deranged. In that we are located less than one mile from a very large veterans hospital, we hope to include them also.

I'd be very interested in learning of those on the Camino that have made the trek...regardless of their perceived disabilities.

Arn

Arn
 

vinotinto

Active Member
#13
Arn said:
In that we are located less than one mile from a very large veterans hospital, we hope to include them also.
As a veteran myself, I certainly hope so. Those military men & women who have paid a heavy price in Iraq and Afghanistan deserve all the support they can get.
 

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