Return of the Night Train !!

[JabbaPapa]

From December 12th, the Paris-Tarbes-Lourdes Night Train shall be reinstated. Prices as low as 19€ for a reclining seat, 29€ for a couchette, 39€ for a couchette in 1st Class.

From Summer 2022, June I believe, the line will be extended to Hendaye. (possibly only during Summer)

Arrival time in Tarbes is 7:25 or 7:28 ; whence it will be easy to get to whichever French starting point.

Tickets are already available.

Currently the line will travel via Orléans and Toulouse, but it is hoped that it will return to its original route via Bordeaux in future.

Night trains have a bicycle transport service, with a 10€ reservation fee.

 

[VNwalking]

Wonderful news, thank you for sharing it.
Many of us would prefer not to fly if that is at all possible, and enjoy night trains. Now they will be running again.

Tickets are already available.

Here are some more details:

A guide to French overnight trains | Intercités de Nuit

A guide to French Intercités de Nuit overnight trains with couchettes. Tickets from €29 with couchette. How to book a couchette compartment for sole or dual occupancy using Espace Privatif

www.seat61.com

 

[Sirage]

Some of the best traditional carriages ever made as I recall and they can go quite fast, although on some French routes the idea is to go slow and not arrive too early.

Hopefully they didn’t scrap too many of them.

 

[Vacajoe]

Trust me, if the plan is to take them through the old Somport Pass and Canfranc Estacion in the Aragon Valley enroute to Madrid, going too fast will not be an issue! It’s a rickety ride as of now between Canfranc and Jaca. The tracks that remain after the derailment in the 1970s really need to be refurbished on the Spanish side and rebuilt on the French one.

I LOVE the idea, though, and hope it happens. Don’t expect it before 2030, though.

 

[JabbaPapa]

going too fast will not be an issue!

Night trains are slower than exactly equivalent day ones, I'd assume as an effort towards noise reduction.

 

[Bristle Boy]

Night trains are slower than exactly equivalent day ones, I'd assume as an effort towards noise reduction.

Sounds great! When you are asleep and it's dark speed isn't really that important.

 

[Sirage]

I'd assume as an effort towards noise reduction.

Not in my experience. Part of the story is the frequent stops, station noises and passengers noisily getting on and off, and occasionally shunting or other railway activities, depending on the route.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Not in my experience. Part of the story is the frequent stops, station noises and passengers noisily getting on and off, and occasionally shunting or other railway activities, depending on the route.

I meant along the railways, i.e. the trains make less noise for the inhabitants nearby.

Inside, well, noise levels vary greatly.

 

[Sirage]

I meant along the railways, i.e. the trains make less noise for the inhabitants nearby.

Inside, well, noise levels vary greatly.

Ok.

I guess many on this forum would like to ride again in the classic couchette. I wonder if this was a pilgrim thing ) ?

A quick search indicates that I had wrongly imagined that SNCF was reintroducing their night trains which they stopped running except for the very popular Toulouse - Paris route (that I caught on my way to Germany after finishing a Camino at Sanguesa [because the bus went at the right time] ).

It appears the classic Couchette night trains will not be coming back, so us traditionalists will be disappointed, but a private company is proposing a more upmarket service across Europe. Which leads onto the question of profit. I suspect they will need government subsidy perhaps as simple as not paying much to use the rail network arguing that the old network is not worth much and it is not busy - my guess.

My memory (perhaps a rail fan can provide a link) is that SNCF upgraded their fleet and built 3,000 carriages including the couchette style (just before the TGV was approved) which then became redundant as the TGV was introduced. And these 3,000 pre-TGV carriages can go 200 km/h and the electric locomotives that haul them much faster.

I have it on good authority that the human brain is hard-wired to love trains and they scream at their politicians who want to close down unprofitable services. The politicians should remember that in many places such as all of France and Australia and presumably all of Europe trains were expanded (after the private rail boom) only for 2 reasons: as a public service to connect people and provide freight across their electorates, and secondly as a corrupt activity to enhance the land value of the politicians properties and their mates. Trains tend not to be a profitable activity after the highway and the bus and the truck were invented.

I think in France there may be little corruption and it is mostly about connecting the regions to provide services and make it more governable, equal and united - and as a focus give all the French good access to Paris including people on the outskirts of Paris to inner Paris. And SNCF maybe breaking the mould and becoming superficially profitable, noting that a lot of government investment is probably an unaccounted subsidy for the benefit of national unity. The French are good at a few things.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Ok.

I guess many on this forum would like to ride again in the classic couchette. I wonder if this was a pilgrim thing ) ?

A quick search indicates that I had wrongly imagined that SNCF was reintroducing their night trains which they stopped running except for the very popular Toulouse - Paris route (that I caught on my way to Germany after finishing a Camino at Sanguesa [because the bus went at the right time] ).

It appears the classic Couchette night trains will not be coming back, so us traditionalists will be disappointed, but a private company is proposing a more upmarket service across Europe.

hmmmm, as far as I know, both of those types of night train will be part of the mix -- and there were more of them left than just the Paris-Toulouse, though not very many.

There's a Paris-Albi ; a Luxembourg/Strasbourg-Cerbere (though it used to carry on to Portbou) ; the Paris-Irún was never officially suppressed, though this news details what's becoming of it ; the Paris-Luchon is in a similar limbo that Paris-Irún was, but officially it still "exists" ; the Blue Train stopped going to Ventimiglia in 2010, ending at Nice instead, and was closed between 2017 and 2021 ; Paris-Briançon ; Paris-Latour de Carol (via Andorra) ; and the Paris-Toulouse still has a few carriages that carry on to Portbou via Carcassonne and Perpignan, and the stop at Narbonne is being re-established in December.

One major difference between the old night trains and the current ones is that there are no train stops between midnight and 5AM. So you couldn't use the current Blue Train as a night train to Avignon, for example.

The closed line that annoys me the most personally, Camino-wise, is the Nice-Irún ; though no more Paris-Ventimiglia is also irksome for different reasons. There were also a Venice-Bordeaux, and a Rome-Portbou.

My memory (perhaps a rail fan can provide a link) is that SNCF upgraded their fleet and built 3,000 carriages including the couchette style (just before the TGV was approved) which then became redundant as the TGV was introduced. And these 3,000 pre-TGV carriages can go 200 km/h and the electric locomotives that haul them much faster.

This is exactly the fleet of train carriages that's being renovated and put back into service for this revival, initially at least -- though most of the older Corail-style carriages that you may remember have been sold or broken apart ; some though are still in, or being returned to service. The future projected lines and line revivals will require some new rolling stock.

As to the "luxury" night trains you mention, this will be something separate to the night trains as such, rather than replacing them, and will be a service of wagons-lits rather than couchettes and reclining seats, and IIRC international not just French territorial.

 

[Former member 99290]

The French are good at a few things.

That’s certainly true - though I’d say many things. One of my favourite sayings from my French husband (though not his originally) goes along the lines. ‘Ah France - we have no oil but we have a lot of ideas’.

 

[Sirage]

we have no oil

And if that includes no vegetable oil it shows how wise they are.

The French - I agree - my few was intended to be a euphemism, guess I was too subtle about that, my Australian/English heritiage, even though I have just noticed your location.

 

[Kathar1na]

ns will not be coming back, so us traditionalists will be disappointed, but a private company is proposing a more upmarket service across Europe. Which leads onto the question of profit. I suspect they will need government subsidy

Generally, ie not related to France: there is currently a bit of a hype about the comeback of the night trains going on, as one article put it. Profitability is a big issue. ÖBB (Austria) and one or the other of the private companies are apparently able to run their night train connections without loss but there seems to be a general consensus that subsidies, for example from the funds for economic transformation programs in view of climate change, will be necessary. Aim is anyway to replace or reduce air traffic in order to reduce C02 emission. Numerous plans for future night train connections throughout Europe but much of it is just plans. For example that they can use high speed tracks but at low speed prices (for using the tracks).

 

[Kathar1na]

Aim is anyway to replace or reduce air traffic.

Btw, I vaguely remember that the French parliament adopted a law (this year?) that aims to prohibit short-distance commercial flights. I seem to remember that the original proposal was watered down, and so it will not affect the Paris-Bordeaux and Paris-Biarritz flights, i.e. the ones of main interest for international Camino walkers.

 

[Sirage]

Generally, ie not related to France: there is currently a bit of a hype about the comeback of the night trains going on, as one article put it. Profitability is a big issue. ÖBB (Austria) and one or the other of the private companies are apparently able to run their night train connections without loss but there seems to be a general consensus that subsidies, for example from the funds for economic transformation programs in view of climate change, will be necessary. Aim is anyway to replace or reduce air traffic in order to reduce C02 emission. Numerous plans for future night train connections throughout Europe but much of it is just plans. For example that they can use high speed tracks but at low speed prices (for using the tracks).

The privatisation of the railways in various places provides great opportunities for Skulduggery. The SNCF would be extremely familiar with the unreasonable requests for cheap access to the track. Anyhow France has a comprehensive tiered railway network to cater for various train types and speeds.

 

[Corned Beef]

For the nerds - and anyone checking which trains run on which SNCF lines. Check out Geneva for example

Live train-tracking service discontinued

Our live geolocation tool is no longer available, but you can still get the passenger information you need. Find out how.

www.sncf.com

 

[JabbaPapa]

I seem to remember that the original proposal was watered down

It's potentially unconstitutional, as well as potentially against EU Community Law, and is being challenged in Court. Hence the watering down of some of it all.

My understanding is that the return of the night trains is being mandated by the EU, as one former SNCF employee with a degree of insider knowledge I met, put it to me this year in Portbou, as I was making my way towards Lleida to restart my current Camino where I had left it.

 

[Kathar1na]

For the nerds - and anyone checking which trains run on which SNCF lines. Check out Geneva for example

Live train-tracking service discontinued

Our live geolocation tool is no longer available, but you can still get the passenger information you need. Find out how.

www.sncf.com

LOL, and I swear this is the truth: the first connection that I clicked on gave me the TGV INOUI no. 8560 from Trabes to Lourdes and Dax with a layover in Dax and further connection to Bordeaux Saint-Jean and Paris Montparnasse with +114 minutes delayed and +241 minutes delayed.

But I agree, these digital information offers are great and they are getting better all the time, not only in France.

Something that might be useful for pilgrims: real-time arrival times and departure times in French train stations, for example for Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port or for Bayonne. Includes delays and waiting times, obviously. And platform number or letter, also in real-time (they sometimes change and can be different from the timetables).

 

[Kathar1na]

I am often curious about what I read and write about ... so I had a look at actual booking conditions for the night train from Paris-Austerlitz to Lourdes in December. Interesting, and I learnt a new expression in French.

There are couchettes. Including couchettes for women only or for women with children only.

You can book a whole couchette at an affordable price if it is not during a period of great affluence (holiday season for example).

Wearing a face mask is obligatory during the whole journey on the train.

They sell only 4 beds in the couchette compartments (which have 6 beds in total, as usual). And these beds are arranged or must be occupied in the position « tête bêche » in order to maximise the distance between passengers, ie parallel to each other but in opposite directions to each other.

Bookable until March 2022 at the time of writing. Minimum prices of your ticket can vary from day to day.

 

[Friend from Barquinha]

Aim is anyway to replace or reduce air traffic in order to reduce C02 emission. Numerous plans for future night train connections throughout Europe but much of it is just plans. For example that they can use high speed tracks but at low speed prices (for using the tracks).

Slight digression:

Homepage

Find out and hop on the #EUYearofRail!

europa.eu

European Sleeper - railway company for night trains

The first night train of European Sleeper goes to Brussels - Amsterdam - Berlin. We are the railway company for night trains.

www.europeansleeper.eu

 

[JabbaPapa]

There are couchettes. Including couchettes for women only or for women with children only.

You can book a whole couchette at an affordable price if it is not during a period of great affluence (holiday season for example).

Indeed -- I almost put these in my OP.

Wearing a face mask is obligatory during the whole journey on the train.

Unlikely to be enforced on people in the process of sleeping in non-crowded conditions, especially if they are alone in a couchette compartment or only with family and/or friends ; but there as a rule just in case.

They sell only 4 beds in the couchette compartments (which have 6 beds in total, as usual).

The 1st class have four couchettes ; 2nd class 6.

I'm certain you're correct about present occupancy limitations.

And these beds are arranged or must be occupied in the position « tête bêche » in order to maximise the distance between passengers, ie parallel to each other but in opposite directions to each other.

I've physically outgrown the available space in the couchette bunks, but when I could still use them in the late 80s and early 90s, that's exactly how I preferred to sleep.

Including because it maximises distance from any snorers ...

 

[oursonpolaire]

Generally, ie not related to France: there is currently a bit of a hype about the comeback of the night trains going on, as one article put it. Profitability is a big issue. ÖBB (Austria) and one or the other of the private companies are apparently able to run their night train connections without loss but there seems to be a general consensus that subsidies, for example from the funds for economic transformation programs in view of climate change, will be necessary. Aim is anyway to replace or reduce air traffic in order to reduce C02 emission. Numerous plans for future night train connections throughout Europe but much of it is just plans. For example that they can use high speed tracks but at low speed prices (for using the tracks).

If it is any comfort, I am informed by my two-doors-down transport policy analyst neighbour that all means of transport, bicycles excepted, require substantial subsidies to operate. He claims that the per km figure would shock most readers He will happily discourse on road costs and vehicle and fuel taxes and fees, then migrate into a monologue on trucking and trains, and will close off the dinner with a description of airports and of aircraft manufacture. Having dined well at my table, he informs all that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

I have only once taken a French overnight train so many years ago that I cannot recall which one (Paris to Marseilles??). However, the Renfe overnight from Madrid to Bayonne (en route to Paris) was very comfortable and I somehow ended up with a private compartment with shower. I thought that this was a splendid way to travel.

 

[geraldkelly]

This is a piece of excellent news. Hopefully more of the night trains will come back. I got Paris to Madrid several times, a sleeper cost about 120 francs extra, it was well worth it. The train got into Madrid about 8am. I used the Santiago to Madrid sleeper a couple of times as well. It used to cost about €60.

I went all the way to Morocco by train once. It was normal then and not so expensive, this was the early 1990s. It's great to see it coming back. A new service from Cologne to Vienna started a couple of years ago too.

It's very hypocritical of our lords and masters to tell us to fly less while they've abolished most of the long-distance international night trains on the basis that "they loose money". Meanwhile aviation fuel is tax free, as are plane tickets. Not that it matters to them, they've all got private jets.

G

 

[Vacajoe]

I am taking a night train from Edinburgh to London! Sadly, it is almost TOO fast as it leaves at 11:30pm and arrives shortly after 7am. No leisurely morning, for sure.

 

[Kathar1na]

I am taking a night train from Edinburgh to London! Sadly, it is almost TOO fast as it leaves at 11:30pm and arrives shortly after 7am. No leisurely morning, for sure.

Yeah! The sleeper train from London to Edinburgh and back.

I suddenly remembered what it was called so many years ago when we travelled through the night to Scotland and back: a sleeper train! Rattata tat, rattata tat ... all through the night. I can still hear it.

 

[Piscesman1946]

Any news on the Sud Express or the Lusitania (Lisbon-Hendaye-Madrid)? I heard they had been cancelled and might not return.

 

[Friend from Barquinha]

Any news on the Sud Express or the Lusitania (Lisbon-Hendaye-Madrid)? I heard they had been cancelled and might not return.

The scuttlebutt is that Portugal is more keen to see them return than Spain is, because of the increased emphasis in Spain on high-speed routes. But I think the will is there, particularly with this being the Year of Rail in Portugal, and similarly for Europe at large.

Still waiting on post-pandemic realities.

 

[JabbaPapa]

There's been some developing news on this front, but I've not seen it collated into a non-paywalled news article, so I'm afraid I'll just have to paraphrase.

The proper Paris to Bayonne night train (via Bordeaux) is theoretically opening at the end of the year -- even though due to work on the railways around Bordeaux in preparation for the future high speed rail link south from Bordeaux, which will take place mostly at night, service is predicted to be occasionally spotty on this line for some years, until that work is finished. This is actually an excellent change to the Paris-Lourdes night train, which will be two trains conjoined, with some carriages going on to Dax and Bayonne and some to Orthez, Pau, Tarbes, and Lourdes.

The Paris to Cerbère night train is changing hugely, also at year's end, and will no longer go via Toulon, but via Lyon, Marseilles, Nîmes, Montpellier, Sète, Agde, Béziers and of course Perpignan -- which will be very helpful for travel to the Le Puy, Arles, Piémont, and various Catalan Ways in France and Catalonia.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The Night Train from Paris to Bayonne (and Lourdes) is officially reinstated from 22nd December. Looks like it won't stop at Bordeaux though. Runs every night.

Prices : €19 for a reclining seat ; €29 second class couchette ; €39 first class ; €150 to reserve a whole 2nd class couchette compartment (1 to 6 places) ; €180 1st class (1 to 4 places).

The route change mentioned in the previous post about the Paris to Cerbère one was implemented 2 days ago, but it will stop at neither Lyons nor Marseilles, so first stop Nîmes. Still OK for the Arles and Piémont Ways !! However -- it's only on Fridays, Sundays, and school holidays ...

hmmmm, does mean it will be running nightly over the Summer school holidays though ...

The new lines :