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Rigid soles on boots

happymarkos

HappyMark
Time of past OR future Camino
2023. Finish the VDLP. Zamora to Santiago.
I am looking at a new lighter pair of boots (yes boots as I need the ankle support) and am trying the Hanwag Anisak GTX model.

It has many attractive features including a purposed designed wider area towards the front that corresponds to the part of my that is naturally the widest.
My dilemma is that the soles are very rigid. It is very difficult to bend the boot. I know there is a lot of positive commentary about taking shorter steps and trying to place the foot flat on the ground to minimise ankle flexing. This boot basically achieves that because of the rigidity of the sole. The reviews I have read all praise it as a long distance walking boot and I know the brand is a very good one (one of the few boots that can be resoled) and otherwise it ticks the boxes. I weigh 70 kg and carry about 8kgs in my backpack.
I just can't weigh up in my mind if the lack of flexing creates other problems that offset its other advantages.
Comments please
Happymarkos
 
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I just can't weigh up in my mind if the lack of flexing creates other problems that offset its other advantages.
The only way to get a good answer is to walk in them extensively. What suits others may not suit you. I have used boots with flexible soles and boots with completely inflexible soles. When I had an ankle injury, the inflexible ones were great. My feet don't work well with sandals and lightweight trail shoes. Other Forum Members love those! I think you will need to do your own testing, though the experience of others may guide you about what you can expect. I have not had blister problems with either rigid or flexible soles. Good luck!:)
 
I've walked in Hanwags a couple of times. Because I thought I needed the ankle support. The thing is that they are quite tall. Making an unsteady surface worse. I'm not convinced by them any more.

I tried vivobarefoot. They were nice, poor waterproofing though. And Hoka Tor, they were very good, bouncy. And inov-8 terroc, also fine. Low shoes are definitely harder underfoot.

I think that a stiff sole may be hard work. My current Scarpa Evo's are flexible, supportive, and quite low. I like them.

I suspect that we adapt.
 
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Rigid soles boots are designed mostly for technical terrain and mountaineering.

There are two kinds of hard-sole boots: backpacking and mountaineering. Although both have hard soles, the level of stiffness varies greatly. Backpacking boots are stronger all-around than regular hiking boots, and they have significantly stronger shanks in the midsole to support the heavier load. Backpacking boots need to be flexible and light, but strong enough to tackle difficult terrain over a long time.
Mountaineering boots are as strong and hard as you will find. They are built to carry heavy loads, attach tools like crampons to them and are made to handle extreme elements. Wearing these on day hikes will be uncomfortable; the lack of flexibility hurt a hiker’s feet.
 
I need boots too. I use Lowa Camino (yes really) GTX boots. Great hiking boots, soft and supple, with a good lacing thingy that stops your feet moving forward in the boot on steep downhills. I swear by them, and on my third pair. Maybe worth a look?

Edit: they can be re-soled too

Davey
Hi Davey
thank you for your comments. I did not know that any Lowa boots can be resoled. I will see if i can find any local stockists of Lowa Camino. I currently walk in Lowa Renegades and am looking at options.
regards
happymarkos
 
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Rigid soles boots are designed mostly for technical terrain and mountaineering.

There are two kinds of hard-sole boots: backpacking and mountaineering. Although both have hard soles, the level of stiffness varies greatly. Backpacking boots are stronger all-around than regular hiking boots, and they have significantly stronger shanks in the midsole to support the heavier load. Backpacking boots need to be flexible and light, but strong enough to tackle difficult terrain over a long time.
Mountaineering boots are as strong and hard as you will find. They are built to carry heavy loads, attach tools like crampons to them and are made to handle extreme elements. Wearing these on day hikes will be uncomfortable; the lack of flexibility hurt a hiker’s feet.
Hello artuto garcia,
thank you for your comments. I think soles are hard because of the TPU material which seems to get favourable reviews. One other thing that is different is that the tread depth is shallower than on most boots which is strange as Hanwag are a very experienced manufacturer and produce high end footwear.
I think the soles will flex more if I keep them and then break them in.
regards
Happymarkos
 
I am looking at a new lighter pair of boots (yes boots as I need the ankle support) and am trying the Hanwag Anisak GTX model.

It has many attractive features including a purposed designed wider area towards the front that corresponds to the part of my that is naturally the widest.
My dilemma is that the soles are very rigid. It is very difficult to bend the boot. I know there is a lot of positive commentary about taking shorter steps and trying to place the foot flat on the ground to minimise ankle flexing. This boot basically achieves that because of the rigidity of the sole. The reviews I have read all praise it as a long distance walking boot and I know the brand is a very good one (one of the few boots that can be resoled) and otherwise it ticks the boxes. I weigh 70 kg and carry about 8kgs in my backpack.
I just can't weigh up in my mind if the lack of flexing creates other problems that offset its other advantages.
Comments please
Happymarkos


I can only speak from experience, Frances SJJP-Santiago Sept.-Nov. 2016 & Aug. thru Oct. 2017. I used Asolo boots with the Vibram sole. It is thick soled and had zero issues with my feet. My wife had a pair of Merrills, she ended up with a broken bone in her foot and tendon damage which she suffers from today (do to soft sole) even though she finished the 500 kilometers we had left in our trek. The only time I opted for using a hiking shoe, it almost ended my Camino because of a foot injury(Merrill hiking shoe). There are many places along the Frances where support and foot protection are needed, hence we carry along a lighter shoe for places like the Mesetta and for walking around the towns. The rest of the Way we wore our Asolo boots. When you travel thousands of miles and spend thousands of dollars to partake of the Camino we see no sense in jeopardizing it because of less than adequate footware, albeit we walked with James from Australia who was on his second Camino Frances.... both Caminos he was barefoot.
 
The only way to get a good answer is to walk in them extensively. What suits others may not suit you. I have used boots with flexible soles and boots with completely inflexible soles. When I had an ankle injury, the inflexible ones were great. My feet don't work well with sandals and lightweight trail shoes. Other Forum Members love those! I think you will need to do your own testing, though the experience of others may guide you about what you can expect. I have not had blister problems with either rigid or flexible soles. Good luck!:)
Thank you Falcon 269
I suspect the lack of flexibility will help with my weak left ankle which I badly sprained playing squash 50 years ago. I still go over on it a bit and my Lowa Renegades help. Am looking for something better as in training for my second CF starting early October. At 75 years old need all the help I can get to offset wear and tear over the years.
regards
Happymarkos
 
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Rigid soles boots are designed mostly for technical terrain and mountaineering.

There are two kinds of hard-sole boots: backpacking and mountaineering. Although both have hard soles, the level of stiffness varies greatly. Backpacking boots are stronger all-around than regular hiking boots, and they have significantly stronger shanks in the midsole to support the heavier load. Backpacking boots need to be flexible and light, but strong enough to tackle difficult terrain over a long time.
Mountaineering boots are as strong and hard as you will find. They are built to carry heavy loads, attach tools like crampons to them and are made to handle extreme elements. Wearing these on day hikes will be uncomfortable; the lack of flexibility hurt a hiker’s feet.


The Asolo boots (two Caminos SJJP-Santiago) I wore are rated mountaineering. I had zero issues with my feet from wearing them. Great ankle support for one who has bad ankles from sports injuries, Everyone has different needs.
 
I can only speak from experience, Frances SJJP-Santiago Sept.-Nov. 2016 & Aug. thru Oct. 2017. I used Asolo boots with the Vibram sole. It is thick soled and had zero issues with my feet. My wife had a pair of Merrills, she ended up with a broken bone in her foot and tendon damage which she suffers from today (do to soft sole) even though she finished the 500 kilometers we had left in our trek. The only time I opted for using a hiking shoe, it almost ended my Camino because of a foot injury(Merrill hiking shoe). There are many places along the Frances where support and foot protection are needed, hence we carry along a lighter shoe for places like the Mesetta and for walking around the towns. The rest of the Way we wore our Asolo boots. When you travel thousands of miles and spend thousands of dollars to partake of the Camino we see no sense in jeopardizing it because of less than adequate footware, albeit we walked with James from Australia who was on his second Camino Frances.... both Caminos he was barefoot.

I think I met James from Australia in a bar in Santiago 2016 (maybe with you? He was with a very interesting man from the US)? We went same bar for a few days running. He said he had a hard time barefoot, can't believe he did it again!

Sorry to hijack your thread happymarkos!

Davey
 
I think I met James from Australia in a bar in Santiago 2016 (maybe with you? He was with a very interesting man from the US)? We went same bar for a few days running. He said he had a hard time barefoot, can't believe he did it again!

Sorry to hijack your thread happymarkos!

Davey
James was from Australia, had long brown dreads and had a staff about 6 feet long. You most likely did meet him, he is a very personable guy, and my wife and me too! We were walking the Camino with our daughter and her husband. Rachele and Chad.
I too apologize for veering off course on you thread Markos
Buen Camino !!! we
 
Very light, comfortable and compressible poncho. Specially designed for protection against water for any activity.

Our Atmospheric H30 poncho offers lightness and waterproofness. Easily compressible and made with our Waterproof fabric, its heat-sealed interior seams guarantee its waterproofness. Includes carrying bag.

€60,-
The Asolo boots (two Caminos SJJP-Santiago) I wore are rated mountaineering. I had zero issues with my feet from wearing them. Great ankle support for one who has bad ankles from sports injuries, Everyone has different needs.
I also use Asolo. I like the protection that gives semi-rigid boots
 
Having worked with doctors in general and quite a few orthopedic surgeons I asked them about boots before my first Camino.
Every one of them said wearing high boots because it will give your ankles more stability is a fallacy. They do not and in some cases can contribute to injuries. I believe, and this is based on ONLY my observation over 3 Caminos is that people with boots get a lot more blisters and serious ones than people in sandals or trail runners. This very scientific study is supported by Richard Pryor who famously asked his wife when she found him in bed with another woman. “I am not having sex with this woman, who are you going to believe me or your eyes. Get trail runners my eyes would never lie to you! Thanks
 
Having worked with doctors in general and quite a few orthopedic surgeons I asked them about boots before my first Camino.
Every one of them said wearing high boots because it will give your ankles more stability is a fallacy. They do not and in some cases can contribute to injuries. I believe, and this is based on ONLY my observation over 3 Caminos is that people with boots get a lot more blisters and serious ones than people in sandals or trail runners. This very scientific study is supported by Richard Pryor who famously asked his wife when she found him in bed with another woman. “I am not having sex with this woman, who are you going to believe me or your eyes. Get trail runners my eyes would never lie to you! Thanks

I need boots because of weak ankles while hiking. In fact I need boots because of weak ankles to go to the shop at home! I had to stop wearing shoes 15 years ago. I've never owned a pair of trainers in my life (I'm 52). This is a fact. And I never get blisters, in 7 Caminos walking three years for 5-6 months per year non stop. Also (my choice) I carry 16 kilo while on Camino and I'm a tiny man of only 8.5 stone (60 kilo). Boots work for me.

Every person is different, just saying.

Davey
 
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:) Individually held preferences are something which cannot and should not be debated. Folks have a right to make choices based on whatever criteria they believe is important to them. To that end, I want to say that whatever your reason for wanting boots, flip-flops, bare feet, sandals, trail runners, etc. do not feel that you must change your decisions based on what 'everyone else' does. Be comfortable with your choice.

That being said, if there are statements or observations made in a forum post as a reason to support a choice, then I think that it is important to make sure that any stated 'facts' are actually 'facts'.

Such is the case with footwear. It is not my intention to offend anyone, as I believe that there are times and situations where boots are a reasonable choice to make when hiking, backpacking, or walking. I own and use a pair of Lowa Camino boots in certain seasons and weather conditions in the mountains when backpacking.

However, there a lot of people on this forum looking for answers about footwear and want to make decisions based on what is factual criteria. If looking at boots as a footwear choice, ankle support protection is not a reason to do so.

As to the long held idea that boots provide ankle support protection, long term studies and research have shown this to be not quite the case.

First, unless there are specific and diagnosed medical issues, the ankle is best protected with exercise and use, where the ankle is allowed to use uneven surfaces, exercise, and balancing on one foot in order to build strength and endurance and lessen susceptibility to injurious fatigue.

The only sure and viable ankle support for protection, to those with such a medically indicated need, are ankle braces which can fit inside of the shoe or boot. Despite anecdotal evidence and subjective opinion to the contrary, research has repeatedly shown that boots by themselves do not provide the level of stiffness and the shear rigidity needed to keep ankles free from injury.

They can, in fact, exacerbate the risk of injury.

A foot in a boot is sitting higher off the ground than when in a shoe because the outer and mid-soles are much thicker and built up. Additionally, the outer sole of boots are trimmed closer to shell of the boot, meaning that the outer sole has a fairly narrow profile. Both of these factors have been shown to have a higher risk of the footwear 'rolling' when stepping on an unstable surface or piece of debris like loose rocks or uneven surfaces.

As the boot begins to roll, the boot carries the foot with it, the higher material of the boot above the ankle exerts more force against the foot to make it roll with the boot. That material is not stiff enough to keep from flexing, which means that your ankle is going to start bending as the roll of the boot continues. And because the foot is higher off the ground inside the boot, the ankle can be forced into a more significant bending.

Another factor about boots that helps lead to injury is their weight. The heavier the weight that the foot and lower legs need to lift, the more stress and fatigue the ankles and supporting structures are exposed to. Such weakens the ability of the ankle structures to maintain resiliency.

Trail shoes and trail runners, on the other hand, do the opposite when confronted with the same type of uneven surface or debris. The outer and midsoles are much closer to the ground. They are also wider than the shoe making for a contact point with the ground that is more stable. Their much lighter weight keeps ankle structures from fatiguing.

Now here is the thing researchers found as most significant: A foot in a shoe that is kept a bit loose can compensate, to a large degree, when the shoe starts to roll off of an uneven surface. As the shoe rolls, the shoe tends to slip around the foot. In other words, the shoe moves around the foot for the most part, so the ankle won't immediately bend out of place with the shoe. This allows the wearer of the shoe to have enough time to react to the rolling and twisting shoe to keep the ankle from injurious strain.

Yes, there are people who get ankle injuries in trail shoes and trail runners. But those injuries are less frequent and less severe, on an average, than with a foot encased in an above the ankle hiking boot.

As I stated above, there will be any number of folks that, with no predisposing medical conditions, will state anecdotal evidence along the lines that they, or a friend, or other family members, et al, were saved by above the ankle boots. Subjective opinion is like that. :) But objective evidence begs to differ on the best way of protecting ankles and the lower leg structures.
 
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:) Individually held preferences are something which cannot and should not be debated. Folks have a right to make choices based on whatever criteria they believe is important to them. To that end, I want to say that whatever your reason for wanting boots, flip-flops, bare feet, sandals, trail runners, etc. do not feel that you must change your decisions based on what 'everyone else' does. Be comfortable with your choice.

That being said, if there are statements or observations made in a forum post as a reason to support a choice, then I think that it is important to make sure that any stated 'facts' are actually 'facts'.

Such is the case with footwear. It is not my intention to offend anyone, as I believe that there are times and situations where boots are a reasonable choice to make when hiking, backpacking, or walking. I own and use a pair of Lowa Camino boots in certain seasons and weather conditions in the mountains when backpacking.

However, there a lot of people on this forum looking for answers about footwear and want to make decisions based on what is factual criteria. If looking at boots as a footwear choice, ankle support is not a reason to do so.

As to the long held idea that boots provide ankle support, long term studies and research have shown this to be not quite the case.

First, unless there are specific and diagnosed medical issues, the ankle is best protected with exercise and use, where the ankle is allowed to use uneven surfaces, exercise, and balancing on one foot in order to build strength and endurance and lessen susceptibility to injurious fatigue.

The only sure and viable ankle support for those with such a medically indicated need, are ankle braces which can fit inside of the shoe or boot. Despite anecdotal evidence and subjective opinion to the contrary, research has repeatedly shown that boots by themselves do not provide the level of stiffness and the shear rigidity needed to keep ankles free from injury.

They can, in fact, exacerbate the risk of injury.

A foot in a boot is sitting higher off the ground than when in a shoe because the outer and mid-soles are much thicker and built up. Additionally, the outer sole of boots are trimmed closer to shell of the boot, meaning that the outer sole has a fairly narrow profile. Both of these factors have been shown to have a higher risk of the footwear 'rolling' when stepping on an unstable surface or piece of debris like loose rocks or uneven surfaces.

As the boot begins to roll, the boot carries the foot with it, the higher material of the boot above the ankle exerts more force against the foot to make it roll with the boot. That material is not stiff enough to keep from flexing, which means that your ankle is going to start bending as the roll of the boot continues. And because the foot is higher off the ground inside the boot, the ankle can be forced into a more significant bending.

Another factor about boots that helps lead to injury is their weight. The heavier the weight that the foot and lower legs need to lift, the more stress and fatigue the ankles and supporting structures are exposed to. Such weakens the ability of the ankle structures to maintain resiliency.

Trail shoes and trail runners, on the other hand, do the opposite when confronted with the same type of uneven surface or debris. The outer and midsoles are much closer to the ground. They are also wider than the shoe making for a contact point with the ground that is more stable. Their much lighter weight keeps ankle structures from fatiguing.

Now here is the thing researchers found as most significant: A foot in a shoe that is kept a bit loose can compensate, to a large degree, when the shoe starts to roll off of an uneven surface. As the shoe rolls, the shoe tends to slip around the foot. In other words, the shoe moves around the foot for the most part, so the ankle won't immediately bend out of place with the shoe. This allows the wearer of the shoe to have enough time to react to the rolling and twisting shoe to keep the ankle from injurious strain.

Yes, there are people who get ankle injuries in trail shoes and trail runners. But those injuries are less frequent and less severe, on an average, than with a foot encased in an above the ankle hiking boot.

As I stated above, there will be any number of folks that, with no predisposing medical conditions, will state anecdotal evidence along the lines that they, or a friend, or other family members, et al, were saved by above the ankle boots. Subjective opinion is like that. :) But objective evidence begs to differ on the best way of protecting ankles and the lower leg structures.
Davebug
greatly appreciate your post and all the detail you provide; it has definitely given me something to further consider.
I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on:

1) how to keep the toes away from the front of the footwear during steep and sometimes very long descents. My practise is to tap the foot back before starting, tighten the upper laces on my boots and lengthen my trekking poles, sometimes by 20+ cm.

2) how do trail shoes accomplish this?

3) What styles/brands footwear best meets the criteria you have outlined above?

Looking forward to hearing further
regards
Happymark
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
Many (most?) shoes have two eyelets at the ankle (even some boots have this - like my Hoka Tor Ultra WPs).

The first example is the most common way (from what I've seen) to use those eyelets, but there are a bunch of tricks here:


This is anecdotal, but I think I crossed the Pyrenees with too many of these kinds of tricks used - my feet were not moving at all within the shoe. Someone posted a great piece here about the intense pressure that a completely immobile foot puts on your skin ... I'll try to dig it up.
 
Davebug
greatly appreciate your post and all the detail you provide; it has definitely given me something to further consider.
I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on:

1) how to keep the toes away from the front of the footwear during steep and sometimes very long descents. My practise is to tap the foot back before starting, tighten the upper laces on my boots and lengthen my trekking poles, sometimes by 20+ cm.

2) how do trail shoes accomplish this?

3) What styles/brands footwear best meets the criteria you have outlined above?

Looking forward to hearing further
regards
Happymark

Hi, Happymark. :)

1. The most important factor is having the proper size footwear. I'll include a post I wrote below, previously outlining how to properly fit new footwear. If the shoes are not the proper size, shoe lacing and tying strategies are -- at best -- a stop gap measure which may still allow problems to occur.

The bottom line is that after following the steps below, the front of your toes, in a normally tied shoe, should not touch the front of the shoe when using various methods to try and force the foot forward in the shoe. If the toes touch, that indicates that a larger size is needed.

Once the proper fit is obtained, the strategies for blister prevention and ankle injury protection include keeping shoes of boots slightly looser on the feet. Then when reaching a lengthy downhill section, tightening the laces. I have written a blister prevention guideline which explains this further :)

2. Trail shoes are no different than boots with regard to proper fitting and the bumping of toes on the front of the shoe on downhill grades. The advantage of trail shoes and trail runners and runners are their lighter weight and flexibility and the ability to help deal with footwear and feet when things get wet. I also wrote a guide for wet feet strategies, too. :)

3. I believe that in most cases, a trail runner is a good choice to consider. But folks have their own biases and conceptions about what they prefer. But regardless of preference, the choice of which trail and backpacking footwear to try out for possible purchase follows a decision algorithm which goes something like this:
  1. What do you need from your shoe and what brands and models of shoe meet those needs? Motion control, cushioning, the most aggressively secure footing possible, the ability to accommodate remediation's (ankle braces, orthotics, metatarsal pads, special widths, certain levels of stiffness or flexibility), impact trauma protection, avoiding pressure on a problem Achilles Tendon, etc.
  2. What brands and models of shoes that meet your needs for #1 come in the proper width for your feet?
  3. Do you have a variance between your feet? In other words, while one foot acts normal, does your other foot hate your guts and goes out of its way to make life miserable for you? If the answer is yes, then do your brand and model choices for consideration meet the needs for your hateful foot? When I buy a shoe, it is the right foot that I worry about getting a good compatibility and comfort level for. My left foot is far less picky. :)
  4. Are your footwear choices made by a known manufacturer with a good track record for quality control? Are your shoe choices given good user reviews for the type of use you will subject them to?
Personally, the last thing I am worried about is the longevity of a shoe. In other words, if I have a superb shoe that fits well, agrees with Mr. Right Foot, and does what I need it to do, but it only has a life span of 300 miles, I will give up longevity in favor of the great fit and function.

I am not saying that a shoe that claims and warrants to keep its performance, fit and comfort intact for 1000 miles, yet fails at 300 miles is acceptable. That is bad quality control. I am talking about knowing the normal longevity parameters of a given shoe, and not rejecting its purchase just because it doesn't last as long as a different, yet less comfortable shoe brand or model.

Bottom line: start by picking the type of shoe you are wedded to, be it a boot or a trail runner or a trail shoe or a running shoe. Then use the decision algorithm to help you find a great shoe.

-------------------------

The most important theme for achieving a proper fit is: You do not choose a shoe based on measurements, you buy a shoe based on its Fit N Feel irregardless of instrument measurements.
  1. When you go to the store, do so toward the end of the day.... you will have been up on your feet, so that will help with getting the correct fit. Additionally, you will need to wear the same backpack with the same gear you will be carrying... you want this additional weight on you as this will put the same downward pressure on the foot that you will be having while on Camino.
  2. Wear the exact same sock(s) you will be wearing while you are walking on the Camino. And if you have a special insole or orthotic, bring it with you.
  3. At the store, the measuring that will be done on your feet is only to get you in the ballpark for the correct shoe size.
  4. Start by standing up; never measure while sitting. You want the full weight of your body, with the pack on, to put the same pressure on your feet to spread them out as will happen while walking. That alone will increase the volume and size of your feet.
  5. Make sure those 'Camino' socks are on your feet; if you wear socks with liners while walking, do the same thing at the store.
  6. While standing, have someone near to you that you can use to steady yourself. With the measuring device on the ground, step onto the instrument and center all of your weight onto the foot being measured. Do the same for the other foot.
  7. Start with that size, but be aware that both the width and the length need to feel like there is adequate room for your feet. Ideally, like Goldilocks, everything will be just right. But, don't count on it. Be picky.
  8. If you have special insoles or orthotics, put them into any shoe you try on as they will take up space inside the shoe.
  9. When you find what you think will fit you well, you will need to see if your toes have enough clearance. Toes should not be able to be forced to the front of the shoe and touch the shoe. Not even a little. If they do, long walking and downhill grades on the trail or path or road will traumatize the bed of the nail, and that is when toenails can blacken and fall off.
  10. With your shoes tied securely, but not too tight, walk around the store with your pack on. Go up stairs and down stairs, scuff the shoes to the floor so that your feet are forced to do any movement they will do and see if your toes so much as butterfly kiss the front of the shoe. Kick the front of the shoe into a post or stair or wall or someone's shin.... does that make any of your toes touch the front of the shoe? That goes for all the little piggies.
  11. Next, pay attention to the width of the shoe. It shouldn't feel snug on the sides and there should be no rubbing or pressure points at all. They will not go away with "break in". They will create soreness, pain, and blistering. Even if it seems to be tolerable, it is like water torture; as your feet are continually exposed to those pressure points your feet will break down against them bit by bit, and bruising, blisters, and soreness will follow.
  12. You may need to go up a size to a size and a half in length, and go with a wider width to avoid those things I mentioned above. The notion that one avoids blisters by wearing snug footwear has been shown to do just the opposite.
 
Many (most?) shoes have two eyelets at the ankle (even some boots have this - like my Hoka Tor Ultra WPs).

The first example is the most common way (from what I've seen) to use those eyelets, but there are a bunch of tricks here:


This is anecdotal, but I think I crossed the Pyrenees with too many of these kinds of tricks used - my feet were not moving at all within the shoe. Someone posted a great piece here about the intense pressure that a completely immobile foot puts on your skin ... I'll try to dig it up.

That may have been a post of mine about blister prevention guidelines. Was this it?
---------------------
Blisters are a product of friction.... often referred to as shear force friction. The skin of your foot, and the sock that is in contact with that area of skin, are sliding and rubbing together.

Strategies for the prevention of shear force friction and blisters have changed and matured over recent years.
  1. A properly fitting shoe. In brief, it needs to be long enough and wide enough to accomodate any insoles, orthotics, metatarsal pads, etc, PLUS the socks that you will be wearing, PLUS the increased pressure on the feet from wearing a loaded pack.
  2. Light padded Merino wool sock designed for walking or backpacking, or the same type of sock in a good synthetic blend. A heavy pad on a sock allows potentially more movement against the skin, takes longer to air out, and takes longer to dry when washed.
  3. A sock fit that is snug and form fitting to the foot, but not gangrene-inducingly tight. You want the shear force to be between the sock and the interior of the shoe, not the sock and the skin. A snug fitting sock will help to make that happen.
  4. Allow the sock to move a bit in the shoe. By keeping the shoes a bit looser on the feet, the sock will take the brunt of the shear force. If a shoe is tied snug, then that forces the foot to move more in the sock, which means the sock and skin are absorbing the shear force. An exception occurs on long downhill grades; the shoes need to be tied tight enough to keep your toes from hitting the front of the shoe which can cause injury and trauma to the nail bed and toe joints.
  5. While there are foot lubricants, from Body Glide and Hiker's Goo to plain old vaseline, the have a fairly short viable working span as the material rubs of the skin and is absorbed by the socks. For prophylactic protection from shear force friction, a long lasting barrier is the better option. The placement of tapes, like Leukotape P, or moleskin-type products, if adhered correctly, will last the whole day.
  6. To apply tapes and moleskin type products,
    1. Clean off the area of application with a bit of alcohol to remove grease, dirt, and body oils. A bit of regular hand sanitizer works for this, in addition to hand cleansing.
    2. Cut a piece of your chosen barrier material to fit the area you want protected; be sure to cut rounded corners rather than square in order to help the material from rolling up away from the skin.
    3. Apply a thin smear of Tincture of Benzoin to the skin area where the adhesive will stick. This will increase the holding power of the tape or moleskin.
      1. If the tape or moleskin, etc. is going on top of a blistered area, avoid getting the benzoin on the roof area of the blister, and add a thin coating of ointment/vaseline onto the blister roof, avoiding the surrounding skin area. This will allow removal of the product without hurting the blister wound.
    4. Place the barrier on the area, taking care to not handle the adhesive; spend a bit of time rubbing the material to create friction so that the adhesive will heat up and adhere more firmly.
    5. At the end of the day, remove the barrier and use some alcohol to wipe the area that was covered.
      1. Since fungus (athletes foot) and pathogens splash around in showers, shower shoes are not necessarily preventative to one's feet being exposed or infected. It is helpful to use an alcohol or astringent product applied to the feet after showering.
 
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Hi Davey
thank you for your comments. I did not know that any Lowa boots can be resoled. I will see if i can find any local stockists of Lowa Camino. I currently walk in Lowa Renegades and am looking at options.
regards
happymarkos
I use Lowa Aeox trail runner mid height gortex... I have Lowa renegades at home and I felt they were two heavy for this type of walking. I wear a heavy brace on my left knee and need ankle support. I tied my laces at the ankle and above to avoid my foot sliding in my boot. Lowa for me fit true to size and dont require wear in period....worked great. No blisters and no toe issues. Some people have toe hitting the front of the bit issues... go up half size or buy the wide with. I would suggest you try them or any shoe on in the store....walk around a bit even if you intend to buy them on line (sometimes cheaper). I also used some specific insoles and carried an extra pair along with blister proof sock from Wright socks and antishock trekking poles from Leki. For someone with knee and joint issues this made all the difference in the world for me. Good luck
 
Last edited:
:eek: I realized that I needed to clarify my post about ankle protection with regard to footwear. I have made edits to that post above.

'Support' is not necessarily used by some as a term to mean the same thing as 'protection'. As an example, a joint can have a wrap or compression sleeve or an aid which will provide a bit of stability support in normal motion and movement. That support, however, is not going to prevent substantial forces which can cause injuries when a joint is moved in a manner it is not designed to do. That is what protective devices are designed to do. Like certain styles of braces which can immobilize a joint, like the knee, from injury causing motions.

My mistake was overlooking my equating 'support' with 'protection', where 'protection' means keeping an ankle free from injury. I apologize for this oversight. Additionally, there are technical mountaineering boots which are designed similarly to rigid-shelled ski boots, which are rigid enough to protect an ankle from injury. These boots, however, are not for the type of walking done on Camino.

So, mea culpa and apologies for not being more precise in differentiating these things.
 
I am late to the game as far as comments.
I have seriously painful neuropathy in my right foot, walking the Camino has been difficult for me over the past 8 years.
A boot with high ankle support is essential for me. I have tried Asolo and Merrell but for the last 2 years walked in a Salomon boot and it is one of the best I have used. It has the fit and feel of a ski boot and the sole is a cushion, not rigid like the OP commented about his boot.
 
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Lots of good info. in this thread. I think the most important advice is to walk a lot in different shoes/boots before you go and pay attention to your own experience in your footwear. Try not to let your (or others') opinions about "important features" brainwash you. At least some of these claims are purely marketing and not backed up by data. And absolutely nothing is more important than fit and personal experience. And these things vary considerably between people, as you will find out if you peruse the many posts about this topic on this forum.
 
Thank you many times Davebugg for your fantastic knowledge and posts in the amazingly complex area of Camino footware and all that !!!!!
And Mark ,,,buen camino from me for your next camino
 
The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
Thank you many times Davebugg for your fantastic knowledge and posts in the amazingly complex area of Camino footware and all that !!!!!
And Mark ,,,buen camino from me for your next camino
Thanks Martin
Are you settled back in OZ, or unsettled and ready to walk again?
Buen Camino
 
I am looking at a new lighter pair of boots (yes boots as I need the ankle support) and am trying the Hanwag Anisak GTX model.

It has many attractive features including a purposed designed wider area towards the front that corresponds to the part of my that is naturally the widest.
My dilemma is that the soles are very rigid. It is very difficult to bend the boot. I know there is a lot of positive commentary about taking shorter steps and trying to place the foot flat on the ground to minimise ankle flexing. This boot basically achieves that because of the rigidity of the sole. The reviews I have read all praise it as a long distance walking boot and I know the brand is a very good one (one of the few boots that can be resoled) and otherwise it ticks the boxes. I weigh 70 kg and carry about 8kgs in my backpack.
I just can't weigh up in my mind if the lack of flexing creates other problems that offset its other advantages.
Comments please
Happymarkos
I’m wearing Hanwag Tatra at the moment, and have walked in Meindl for years. Both hard sole. I think they are great. They eliminate the pain of walking on sharp stones and pebbles of which there are quite a lot.
 
That may have been a post of mine about blister prevention guidelines. Was this it?

I did read that and it is consistent with what I saw: To paraphrase inexpertly, with the foot "locked" in place by a too-snug fit, the shear force is concentrated beneath the skin layers, and a blister forms.

This was interesting about causes and *treatment* of blisters, but I cannot expertly assess its credibility:

https://www.podiatrytoday.com/how-to-manage-friction-blisters



I have seriously painful neuropathy in my right foot, walking the Camino has been difficult for me over the past 8 years.

This is going to sound like a commercial, so I apologize. I have neuropathy everywhere, but especially in both legs from the lower shin down. Lots of paresthesia (especially after days of walking), can't walk barefoot over anything harder than a sponge, no ankle muscles to really speak of. (I wear Ankle Foot Orthotics.)

I chose Hoka One One Tor Ultra WPs because they were lightweight, incredibly padded, and came in high top. (My ankles tend to flop completely when I step on uneven surfaces or, heaven forbid, a small rock, and the high tops don't so much stop that completely as reduce the severity of the 'flop' and the likelihood of falling. My ankles have so little muscle that I've found them unsprainable.)

I developed blisters on the first day that were pretty painful (I'm guessing your feet are hypersensitive, as well), and had to swap out for a pair of Adidas Supernova high top trail runners, which were even lighter weight (but did not have the sole padding). The friction/shear spots were slightly different, offering some relief. I was back to the Hokas when my blisters healed (not quickly), and walked at least 350 miles of the Frances with them.

Since then, I have bought two more pair of the Hokas (scouting for extreme sales, eBay auctions, etc.). I was doing a regular search for sales for them today (no luck, even though many outdoors companies in the US are currently holding after-season and clearance sales), and happened to read the reviews.

I was surprised to find several reviews that were so identical to my experience that I wondered if I had written them: People with neuropathy who have bought several pairs because the shoe addresses their issues so well.

As with any shoe, the fit has to be right for you (and I stuff a little hikers wool in the heel, which is a bit too wide for my atrophied foot), but if it fits, the shoe addresses a lot of neuropathy problems. I think the fact that a few of us with neuropathy have scooped up multiple pairs of this overpriced shoe speaks to that effectiveness.

Durability:

My ankle foot orthotic is exterior to the shoe (so it doesn't rub against me -- it was my orthotist's discovery of the brace that enabled my Camino), and attaches with front clips that are tied to the lace eyelets. The pressure of the orthotic lifting the toe clip there caused the waterproof lining on the tongue to tear and fray. I also wore Superfeet carbon fiber insoles on the Camino, which turned out to be overkill for me with the Hokas (less so with the Adidas), and which tore the Hoka's waterproof lining where the carbon fiber came in contact with the shoe's heel. So I am not vouching necessarily for the overall life expectancy of the shoe (and would note that the toe clip is not an expected use, so the damage there can be forgiven).

The sole of my first pair is pretty worn (probably 500-600 miles total on them).

I bought my first pair a half-size bigger, but didn't need to. I wear my regular size now, laced to prevent heel slipping forward on descents when I am hiking, and that works. My feet don't seem to swell, which may be a by-product of the neuropathy, but I don't know the physiology of that.

Here's the contraption, complete with hiker's wool.


Tor with AFO.jpg
 
A selection of Camino Jewellery
Lots of good info. in this thread. I think the most important advice is to walk a lot in different shoes/boots before you go and pay attention to your own experience in your footwear. Try not to let your (or others') opinions about "important features" brainwash you. At least some of these claims are purely marketing and not backed up by data. And absolutely nothing is more important than fit and personal experience. And these things vary considerably between people, as you will find out if you peruse the many posts about this topic on this forum.

THIS IS WISDOM !!! :)
 
I did read that and it is consistent with what I saw: To paraphrase inexpertly, with the foot "locked" in place by a too-snug fit, the shear force is concentrated beneath the skin layers, and a blister forms.

This was interesting about causes and *treatment* of blisters, but I cannot expertly assess its credibility:

https://www.podiatrytoday.com/how-to-manage-friction-blisters

Wow, tjb, you have done an admirable job in dealing with a very difficult foot issue. Well done, my friend. :)

As to the article -- which was a fairly decent review of the literature -- I can find no real problem with what the author states, and agree with much of what was written with a couple of small caveats: Even though the article is recent, his source literature is not necessarily the latest and seems to be missing some pieces. He does make some observations and recommendations on blister prevention strategies which, while pretty good, have been further refined.

For those curious about the latest refinements, I've incorporated many of those into my posts about blister prevention and blister treatments.

I would like to mention a couple of things the article mentioned: Anti-Friction patches and skin adhesives for blister prevention 'shields'.

Engo patches are available commercially. They are a friction reduction mechanism designed to decrease shear force friction between the insole and the sock. This in turn greatly reduces the culprit of blistering, the movement (shearing force) of the sock against the skin.

The patches are stuck to the inside of the shoe and insole in those locations where blistering is likely to occur. The patches are self adhering and are pre-cut, yet can be further shaped by scissors if need be. Engo Patches are one brand of this kind of product, but has a reliable history and good reviews.

As far as I know, adhesives were used for the first time during Vietnam in an attempt to reduce blistering. This strategy started with the introduction of cyanoacrylic glues -- Super Glues -- to the commercial market. Many of us noticed that when super glue dried on the skin, it formed a tough, plastic coating which was difficult to mechanically remove. As an Army flight and combat medic, I followed the lead of some others who used the glues not only to close open wounds, but to slather on potential 'hotspots' on the feet of blister prone soldiers.

It would work, but wasn't as durable as it needed to be in order to last more than a few hours, at best. But, still, it was a good tool in the short term.

I have also posted a lengthy review and observation of Armaskin Socks, which use a different -- but effective -- approach to blister prevention. The working theory behind Armaskins is achieved in other ways, but for those who are very anxious about blisters and unsure of their ability to adequately deal with prevention strategies, the expense of Armaskin Socks may well be worth it.

Take good care, tjb :)
 
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Hi,

Some thoughts, getting back to the OP question :
- sole rigidity, locally, isolates your feet from ground roughness (gravel, roots...) i.e. less fatigue at the end of the day.
- Is sole flexibility necessary for the roll of your foot ? Probably yes, but the longitudinal profile of the sole (flat vs. rounded) is at least as important.
- Higher profiles protect your feet locally from shocks against obstacles with material around your ankles. Depends on the trail roughness, of course. Less likely to be drowned in water and mud ponds, more fit with gaiters, if any.
- Higher profiles also provide more surface/less pressure when opposing slippage in descents. And a larger angle for heel-forefoot retaining features.
- Sole longevity is necessary when walking long distances, e.g. Le Puy-Santiago non stop, where 300 miles lifespan would not be enough.
- However rigid soles does not mean longevity. Depends on the rubber mix chosen by the maker : adherence and wear resistance are conflicting properties.
- "Light is nice" drives the makers to thinner/less durable soles.
- Re-soling or re-heeling saves money and resources, if you have access to a good cobbler.

I have been happy to walk all the caminos in my signature with "mid" "approach" boots (Salewa MTN Trainers). Ended with a pool of three pairs, all of them resoled at least once. And I have got more rigid/heavy shoes for serious mountaineering.

Maybe biased by an old history with rigid/all-leather boots begun in the '70s, with much less choice for footwear. And might have been happy with lighter solutions enjoyed by my wife on the same routes. Really a personal thing !
 
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