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Robbery on the VdlP? What kind of protection?

loveandgratitude

Good to be here
Time of past OR future Camino
Camino Francais, VDLP 2015
Does anyone have any experience with gas sprays or pepper sprays as a form of defense? I really don't want to use a knife. I'm a afraid it would be used against me.

Any advice?
 
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Unless you have been very well trained in the use of any type of self defense weapon (spray, knife, club, etc), I would strongly advise that you simply avoid the area in question or to insure you are in a group.

It is very important to note that this type of thing is so rare that everyone on the forum is very surprised. This report is almost a mirror image of one a year or so ago in the same area with the same method. The dirt-bags last year were jailed.

Do not fear walking on any of the Caminos...the VdlP is safer than any city in the world. Use good sense and do not fear.
 
I completely echo grayland´s comments. I would never suggest that a pilgrim carry any form of defensive weapon, spray, etc etc. Either avoid the area or go in a group or go with a prayer. The odds are still extremely low that you will be a victim, but I know that is not going to bring comfort to people starting out.

These days the Vdlp is probably bustling, with Semana Santa walkers coinciding with springtime walkers. I think finding company into Guillena will be reasonably easy . Buen camino, and let´s hope for a prompt arrest. Buen camino, Laurie
 
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Use of pepper spray intended for bear spray is illegal because it constitutes excessive use of force.

Issues reported by bear spray users include: expiry dates; misfires due to lack of familiarity with the mechanism; wind direction being contrary; and the fact that after day 3 the spray canister usually has made it from being near at hand to being somewhere at the bottom of the pack. There are also reports of idiots spraying themselves or their gear with pepper as if it were bear repellent.

You're better off with a knife.
 
I don't see how a weapon or a pepper spray could be a good idea. I always wonder how I would react if something like this happened to me, but I hope that I would have the good sense to just hand over my stuff.
 
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It seems the robbery is this area is not that rare. According to Ali Normad who was robbed in 2013, she heard of another Spaniard who was robbed, pack, money everything. They snatched her pack and spread the contents along the way to slow her down. She had to beg to keep her phone. Ali published a detailed account of her ordeal in her blog: http://nomadali.blogspot.ca/2013/04/camino-via-de-la-plata-day-1-robbed.html
These guys were very experienced. It was not simple as just handling over your money.

You can also read her original post from 2013 in this forum.

If this is common in this area, why don't the alberques force/encourage people to walk in groups from Seville or have some visible police presence in susceptible sections.
 
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The one thing I know from my years of martial arts is that the best defence is not getting into trouble in the first place. The next strategy is to run if possible.
The main issue here is that there are two of them. Fighting off one male is hard but with another one as backup and large knives...best to avoid the situation.
Sounds like that stage is one for wearing runners rather than boots, taking along some company and if you do lose your phone, make sure it has a tracking app on it that can be accessed from another phone or computer.
 
Unless you have been very well trained in the use of any type of self defense weapon (spray, knife, club, etc), I would strongly advise that you simply avoid the area in question or to insure you are in a group.

It is very important to note that this type of thing is so rare that everyone on the forum is very surprised. This report is almost a mirror image of one a year or so ago in the same area with the same method. The dirt-bags last year were jailed.

Do not fear walking on any of the Caminos...the VdlP is safer than any city in the world. Use good sense and do not fear.
It wasn't last eyar that they were jailed - it was october 2013, and thus they may be out by now. Google "legal defence sprays" to find out what you can use. I got mine from Amazon. I think pepper spray is illegal just about everywhere.
 
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Only one time did we find ourselves in a situation I wish we had avoided, on the way to Villacazar de Sirga. Not that we were threatened in anyway but we were on a very long road with no other pilgrims, houses or cars passing. A car passed us and then pulled over up the road and no one got out until we got closer. Thank full they were hunting mushrooms but still made us think about taking alternate routes (but then I was walking with a Marine. :) hahaha)

Weapons, leave at home........now whacking someone with a walking stick is permitted.
 
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The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
So if you are carrying a pepper spray - illegal or not? I would suppose you would feel the need to carry it in your hand all the time of walking at a perceived 'dangerous' stretch in case a 'situation' came up? - in order to not need to dig it out of your backpack or whatever ...

And then??? - if you met a totally harmless local person using the same path - approaching you from behind or towards you? Would you then immediately take action with your spray ...?

I am kind of flabbergasted here ... - also about the mention of knives ...

annelise
 
So if you are carrying a pepper spray - illegal or not? I would suppose you would feel the need to carry it in your hand all the time of walking at a perceived 'dangerous' stretch in case a 'situation' came up? - in order to not need to dig it out of your backpack or whatever ...

And then??? - if you met a totally harmless local person using the same path - approaching you from behind or towards you? Would you then immediately take action with your spray ...?

I am kind of flabbergasted here ... - also about the mention of knives ...

annelise
You can get some nifty sunscreen sprays now which are UVF 50, clear and have a freezing sensation as they hit the skin. Very easy to use. And I suspect rather nasty if it went in your eyes. I have mine in the side pocket of my daypack. I haven't checked out my proper pack but I have an Aarn so it would go in a front pack.

I still think that faced with a robber that the best option is to run and I will be wearing my trainers on the Guillena stage. As part of my kata training I theoretically can block a knife attack and then throw my opponent. In reality I would never try that as it is too damn dangerous, and I am too old and slow. I do have a really good death glare on the mat (which NEVER works on my kids) which does make new opponents pause. That and a really assertive solid stride tend to be the most useful things. Plus a few choice Spanish swear words which I plan to learn!
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
You can get some nifty sunscreen sprays now which are UVF 50, clear and have a freezing sensation as they hit the skin. Very easy to use. And I suspect rather nasty if it went in your eyes. I have mine in the side pocket of my daypack. I haven't checked out my proper pack but I have an Aarn so it would go in a front pack.

I still think that faced with a robber that the best option is to run and I will be wearing my trainers on the Guillena stage. As part of my kata training I theoretically can block a knife attack and then throw my opponent. In reality I would never try that as it is too damn dangerous, and I am too old and slow. I do have a really good death glare on the mat (which NEVER works on my kids) which does make new opponents pause. That and a really assertive solid stride tend to be the most useful things. Plus a few choice Spanish swear words which I plan to learn!

Ah but how fast and far can I run! Not very far these days as my 10 grandchildren can all outrun me and it wasn't that long ago that I could be faster than the lot of them.
 
Walking in a group is the only deterrent as the muggers are less likely to target a group.

Consider carrying a "muggers wallet" that has several fake credit cards and some real money. When confronted, hand over this wallet and hope this will satisfy the mugger and give you a chance to escape.

Divide your money, passport and credit cards and place them in different locations (money belt on your body, hidden pack pockets , clothing etc.). Even if you loose some of these items, you will not be stuck without ID or money.

If you are physically able to take on the muggers and have experience doing so then do fight, Otherwise, handing over your money is smarter.
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
The fact remains that the danger is very isolated.
I hate to think that it is generating fear. I understand that it would but feel badly that a couple of dirt-bags can cause fear to others.

It has been said here, from time to time, that unemployment and economic problems are at the root of this type of behavior.
I strongly disagree...these people probably have never, nor will they ever, have a job. The economy has no part in it. They are simply criminals like others around the world.

It is a shame to see it "creep"into the Camino.
 
Among the things you carry on the camino, there is only one thing that can't be replaced - your life. Do just like as if you are in a city. Camino should be no different.
 
You can get some nifty sunscreen sprays now which are UVF 50, clear and have a freezing sensation as they hit the skin. Very easy to use. And I suspect rather nasty if it went in your eyes. I have mine in the side pocket of my daypack. I haven't checked out my proper pack but I have an Aarn so it would go in a front pack.

I still think that faced with a robber that the best option is to run and I will be wearing my trainers on the Guillena stage. As part of my kata training I theoretically can block a knife attack and then throw my opponent. In reality I would never try that as it is too damn dangerous, and I am too old and slow. I do have a really good death glare on the mat (which NEVER works on my kids) which does make new opponents pause. That and a really assertive solid stride tend to be the most useful things. Plus a few choice Spanish swear words which I plan to learn!
Hi Donna,
I am starting out on 16/4. I have already printed out a list of choice Spanish insults. I will be carrying a big staff and have my body spray to hand. I refuse to be diverted from my course by some scurrilous lowlife.
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
Sif I can't find some pilgrims to walk with should i take the bus to Guillena. This first stretch on Vdlp seems to be the area where the thefts are occurring. Or was 2013 the last theft heard of.
 
Sif I can't find some pilgrims to walk with should i take the bus to Guillena. This first stretch on Vdlp seems to be the area where the thefts are occurring. Or was 2013 the last theft heard of.
I have heard at least three incidents, 2012, 2013 and 2015. I would publish your start date in this forum to see who else is starting on the same date, to join you. And when you arrive at the first alberque, talk to others there also to group for the 1st stage.
 
I have heard at least three incidents, 2012, 2013 and 2015. I would publish your start date in this forum to see who else is starting on the same date, to join you. And when you arrive at the first alberque, talk to others there also to group for the 1st stage.
0
Thanks, Rajy62.
 
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I'm really thinking that some kind of protection is necessary. I'm not comfortable with a knife as I don't want to stab anyone and certainly don't want to be stabbed myself, especially with my own knife. Being a foreigner in Spain we can't carry guns so the only thing left would be some sort of pepper spray or an electrical stun-gun which I have seen for sale and may even be legal in Spain. I know of course that in the UK all of the aforementioned items are illegal, but on the mainland many of these things are indeed legal to have and to use in self defense, depending on the country. Whilst I don't want to resort to fighting violence with violence, I also don't want to be a victim of assault and robbery -- and perhaps even worse.
 
I read Ali's blog from 2013 and apparently there other robberies even on TWO people walking together. Also people coming in to Albergues through the WINDOW at night and people perhaps who wanted to steal her bag in a café. Oh dear!

Read her own words here:

Those who have been following this blog know that I had a terrible robbery on day 1 of hiking Via de la Plata from Seville.

I have met lots if people travelling alone, male and female, so I was unlucky but I do recommend hiking the southern sections with company.

However, I'm not the only one to be robbed. I recently met a pilgrim who said she came through on that same first stage as me (to Guillena), some 4 days prior, just behind a couple who had also been robbed by 2 men in balaclavas with knives (yes, a couple... 2 people together!). She wished she'd thought to tell others in the forum and guide as I had.

The night following the robbery a Dutch man had told me in that in the Guillena Albergue he had laid awake at night when he realised someone was coming through the window. He clapped his hand loudly, the intruder left, and he got up and closed the window. Unfortunately he didn't tell anyone in Guillena, but there was no hospitelero when we all left. I later heard that the following night a toiletry bag was stolen from that hostel. (Really, what a nuisance! I'd be disappointed to lose my toiletry bag and the thief should be disappointed to have it.)

Later I met a guy from Belgium who had his backpack stolen from the hostel while he slept in Castilblanco. He caught a bus back to the next big town (Camas), and bought a new one and some new things and continued. Fortunately he said that he had a lot of things out of his pack so they didn't steal everything.

And in Caceres, the day I left, I was sitting in a bar, at the bar, having breakfast (note, I haven't taken up 7am drinking, breakfast is eaten in bars in Spain). I had casually put my bags down. Then I sensed trouble. A young person had come in behind me with the pretence of going to the cigarette vending machine. But I really think she'd been going to snatch one of my bags, so I got up and moved them both to under my guard. She left without cigarettes or bags.

Still, it should be disappointing for me and the thief should my backpack or my food bag be stolen. Not a single thing in either should be of value to anybody else. No electronic gear, no money. Just dirty worn out clothes, and an old toiletry bag inside an old daypack that's getting holes. And an old food bag has opened packets of dried fruits and nuts, tea bags, and water.

Two thieves have already turned down the contents of my bags!


The above can be seen in its original form here:

http://nomadali.blogspot.fr/search/label/pilgrimage
 
The best protection and weapon is your brain. If you go in with the attitude that the Camino is a dangerous place you set up the expectation of meeting just that and life becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. That is not saying to be naive and not take any precautions. Be observant of your environment. Spread your valuables amongst the various safe spots on your person so you cannot lose everything. Don't flaunt your more expensive gear.
Be aware of cultural differences in behaviour. I spent some time in Suriname many years ago and I would often hear someone go Psssst at me. It was really disconcerting and annoying and felt very much like harassment...until the day that one of my colleagues went Psssst out the window to grab the attention of a fellow friend and I realised that it was an innocent normal way of getting someones attention. That completely turned my interpretation of that sound around and by the time I left, I even missed it. Don't let the fears of your own cultural background negatively affect your experience of what is an amazing journey.

And I hope you are reading up on great food and tourist spots as well!
 
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I might also point out that Ali's Blog was dated in 2013.
I am amazed that she encountered so many incidents as I have have completed many Caminos and have not personally heard of any incidents while walking. None. That does not mean that they do not happen...just that they are (or were) very rare.

The times are changing and it does appear that the Camino(s) may now be on the radar of some criminals as an easy place to find good-hearted people who are likely to being carrying valuables.
Just do as you would anywhere else and guard your belongings. If you would not leave them sitting out in your home city...don't do it on the Camino.
That advice is posted several times above.
 
I'm really thinking that some kind of protection is necessary. ...
I agree with you that mugging is more common on vdlp than reported/discussed here. Not everyone on the Camino are members of this forum and most people don't even bother reporting these incidents. We discovered the most recent robbery only by accident when a Canadian pilgrim made reference to it in his video blog.
Circumstances surrounding a city mugging is vastly different to the Camino. On the Camino you are isolated, don't know the area and most often no one is around to hear your scream for help. So, these muggers can easily over power you, as has been demonstrated in Normad's incident.
It is natural for you to be fearful anticipating such situation. No amount of statistics (rare, less likely, mostly safe etc.) is going to reassure everyone. Some of us will feel much safer just being prepared. So, if it will make you feel safer, it is legal to carry a pepper spray on you. Pilgrims reported that police directed them to stores where one can purchase such items. You may have to buy this in Spain, i don't think you can carry it in your flight. But, do take some lessons on how to use it. And use it only as a last resort if things gets out of hand. But, as stated by others, first try to avoid the situation by walking with at least another person. And spread your valuables in multiple locations so as to minimize the loss.
 
I am getting a little bit spooked and am trying to look at the possibility of being robbed and what it would mean. If it's money only that is taken I wouldn't be too happy but I probably wouldn't be carrying much. It's my gear that I'd be afraid of losing. I've put a lot of thought into what I'm bringing.
I had one theft in New York City long ago before ATMs and travelers checks. But things turned out okay. I was angry at first but then had this exhilarating feeling that I was in the Big Apple with nothing but a place to stay and I survived.
I imagine the people who got robbed on the camino didn't expect it. IMHO, no amount of a good attitude is going to keep bad things from happening to us and thinking so just compounds the tragedy with "new age guilt."
I know it's easier said than done, but how we handle the bad things that happen to us is just as important as our attitude. I hope I have the courage to deal with any misfortunes on the trail. By definition, a pilgrimage is a trial. I guess I hadn't put it into words for myself before, but part of my motive for becoming a pilgrim is to test my mettle.
 
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Use of pepper spray intended for bear spray is illegal because it constitutes excessive use of force.

In what country? Certainly not Spain. Pepper spray is 100% legal to carry in Spain if the amount of concentrated pepper is not over a certain percentage. You can keep it on your belt for quick access. I always have some with me and have thwarted an attack (not on the Camino) just by showing it. I do not recommend a knife.
 
In what country? Certainly not Spain. Pepper spray is 100% legal to carry in Spain if the amount of concentrated pepper is not over a certain percentage. You can keep it on your belt for quick access. I always have some with me and have thwarted an attack (not on the Camino) just by showing it. I do not recommend a knife.

Its legal to carry it here too. Carrying it is not using it.
 
Its legal to carry it here too. Carrying it is not using it.

Why would you carry something you have no intention of using? And it's not as though it guarantees that an attacker will back off. You also run the risk of really enraging them.
 
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Its legal to carry it here too. Carrying it is not using it.
Are you implying that it's legal to own and carry pepper spray on your person but illegal to use it in case of being attacked? In your country? Is that the case where you live? That's not the case in Spain where the VDLP is located. In Spain, we can buy it, carry it on our person and spray it in the face of an attacker in the case of self defense. It's not considered excessive force in Spain nor in many other countries.

To recapitulate (and I invite everyone to look up the law in Spain), it's legal to buy, own, carry and use pepper spray (up to a certain percentage of pepper) in Spain in the case of self defense. It's similar in France though I don't believe there is a limit on the concentration of pepper in the spray. Please check the laws of Spain for up-to-date modifications prior to travel.
 
So if it's legal where can you buy it in Seville? Just asking.
 
Coming from a country where pepper spray is categorised as a prohibited Schedule 1 weapon, or at minimum, a controlled weapon, talk of arming up with the stuff gives me the heebiejeebies. One of the reasons it is banned here is because there have been deaths using the stuff. It also is no guarantee of safety to you from any potential attacker. Murphy's Law says it will be a really windy day.

So if you use it, induce a fatal asthma attack in someone (which has happened in Australia and it was a legal mess...) then what? And if you tell me that is unlikely to happen, I would argue back that a robbery is also not guaranteed as more pilgrims than not are not robbed. Would use of pepper spray be considered reasonable by the reasonable person? I would think a reasonable person would think "if it's so dangerous that you felt the need to carry spray, why did you go there at all? Why not just catch a bus or go with friends etc etc".

And to quote a post I read elsewhere on the stuff by someone who IS used to using it:
"That is the same we use here (it is illegal here for private use). Quite simply it doesn't work in the face of someone who's high on adrenaline (and god knows what else).

Plus it's really hard to use reactively - even if you have been trained. It's fiddly and you have to get very close - and that means you're going to get some of it yourself.

Thirdly - it's windbourne and quite a lot of times people misjudge the wind and end up spraying themselves or their companions.

Fourthly - spraying some attacker with this stuff ups the violence ante hugely. This not not usually a good thing for the untrained to do.

Finally - like most weapons - it gives a false sense of security that is no substitute for general vigilence, especially as the worst that can happen is you lose your purse (don't keep everything in one place etc)"

Now I sometimes work in an environment where we have people under the influence of metamphetamine. It is so hard to take them down and you need many more bodies available than usual. Ice + pepper spray = problem for you.

In Spain, pepper spray is approved by the Ministry of Health and Consumption for sale to anyone over 18, if it is:

  • at a concentration no greater than 5%
  • in canisters containing not more than 22 grams
Legal use is technically confined to self defence against large wild animals, such as wild boar in rural areas.



Regarding the right to self-defense in Spain using a weapon: even if the weapon is legal, for example a gun held by a person in possession of a license, or a personal defense spray, the use of the weapon can be illegal if it’s not proportional to the menace the user seeks to avoid.

If you hadn't even thought about using it against wild boar, why would you even think about using it against people? The odds are probably about the same and if attacked, the pig is more dangerous!

http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/Admin/rd137-1993.html#cps4 gives the legal status for anyone who is really keen about this stuff.
 
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I was really surprised that anyone would want to arm themselves as your own weapons can so easily be used against and if you get it wrong...maybe inflame the situation. I have walked alone for many thousands of miles and never had any problems so it must be pretty rare. If I was in a situation then it would be difficult to know exactly what my response would be but a small account of cash versus potentially a death (yours or a strangers) is a no brainer to me.
 
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