Roncesvalles cross

[MegJD]

The cross on the top of the collegiate at Roncesvalles has a hook on the top. What kind of cross is that? Cross plus crozier??

 

[Bradypus]

According to a 1914 academic study of the Roncesvalles daughter house in London (which stood on the edge of today's Trafalgar Square) the Roncesvalles cross is a combination of a cross, a crozier and a sword. Apparently the symbol of the military Orden de Roncesvalles.

Historical Sketches of Old Charing. The Hospital and Chapel of Saint Mary Roncevall. Eleanor of Castile, Queen of England, and the monuments erected in her memory, by James Galloway—A Project Gutenberg eBook

 

[Bradypus]

Just been dipping into the Galloway history of the Roncesvalles daughter house linked above. He has this to say about the mother house's provision for pilgrims at the peak of the medieval pilgrimage. Pretty generous!

"It is stated that at the height of its prosperity the Convent distributed annually from 25,000 to 30,000 rations, each consisting of a loaf of 16 oz., half a pint of wine, with sufficient soup and meat, or fish on days of fast. Those who were infirm had chicken broth and mutton. The Hospital had a staff consisting of the physicians, with whom were associated surgeons and an apothecary, and one of the distinguishing features of the Order at a very early period was that it included sisters. In the case of patients dying while in hospital, free interment was given after the celebration of masses in due form."

 

[flewitheagles]

Having made the train trip from Kaiserslautern to SJPdP (1 time) and Kaiserslautern to Lisbon (2), I can say it is not really pleasant (and I used a sleeper and the fast train!). I returned 2 times and that wasn't fun either. They all took me through Paris and included me having to find a place to stay there or somewhere along the way - one time I couldn't and the train station closed. Perhaps, it was my timing but I would still say it's a drudgery. I believe the options are much better now, but flying sure seems more pleasant.

 

[rappahannock_rev]

According to a 1914 academic study of the Roncesvalles daughter house in London

House still extant?

 

[Bradypus]

House still extant?

Sadly not. It was already in poor shape when Henry VIII got his paws on monastic property all over the country. The land has been cleared and redeveloped a number of times. As far as I can tell it was just about where Northumberland Avenue and Whitehall meet today. The site of a Tesco Express convenience store Very close to the original Scotland Yard.

 

[mspath]

House still extant?

If you try to Google the 2 terms Roncesvalles house confusing entries will pop up regarding the Roncesvalles area in Toronto since Colonel Walter O'Hara, who fought with the British in the Roncesvalles battle, after emigrating to then Upper Canada mid-century would name Roncesvalles Avenue in Toronto in honor of the 1813 battle.

For detailed information re the 1813 Battle of Roncesvalles see Martin Gibson's encyclopedic blog War and Security

For more on the Battle of Roncesvalles and the camino frances see this earlier post

 

[Bradypus]

Another aside! In Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales" the Pardoner sells his indulgences on behalf of the Roncesvalles daughter house in London. The daughter house then sent a part of its income back to Roncesvalles each year. So the devious swindler would have been helping pay for pilgrims' dinners on the Camino (if he had actually existed). A small plea in mitigation!

 

[mspath]

Thanks to Bradypus's 2 posts above you can see the London hospital and Chapel of Saint Mary Roncevall in this early print reproduced as Figure 1 in Galloway's book.

 

[angelafinnigan]

The cross on the top of the collegiate at Roncesvalles has a hook on the top. What kind of cross is that? Cross plus crozier??

It’s called the Roncesvalles Cross and I understand the monks would use it as a banner when venturing out of the monastery to protect pilgrims from the Barbarians. It symbolises the Bishops crozier and the indissoluble union of the cross and the church. I bought one in the shop and wear it a lot.

 

[Kathar1na]

It’s called the Roncesvalles Cross and I understand the monks would use it as a banner when venturing out of the monastery to protect pilgrims from the Barbarians. It symbolises the Bishops crozier and the indissoluble union of the cross and the church. I bought one in the shop and wear it a lot.

While I know next to nothing about the origin, history and meaning of these symbols for Roncesvalles I would guess that the crozier (if that’s what is) is an abbot’s crozier in this case and not a bishop’s crozier?

 

[Bradypus]

While I know next to nothing about the origin, history and meaning of these symbols for Roncesvalles I would guess that the crozier (if that’s what is) is an abbot’s crozier in this case and not a bishop’s crozier?

Not necessarily. The origins of the Roncesvalles cross seem to be obscure but the Roncesvalles hospice was founded by Sancho de Larrosa, bishop of Pamplona, and the crosier element could be a reference to his office.

 

[Kathar1na]

Not necessarily. The origins of the Roncesvalles cross seem to be obscure but the Roncesvalles hospice was founded by Sancho de Larrosa, bishop of Pamplona, and the crosier element could be a reference to his office.

It's possible. Btw, I should of course have said "prior" of Roncesvalles and not "abbot".

There are numerous references to the political-religious authority and power of the priors of Roncesvalles. This is from the Roncesvalles website (translated):

Since the end of the 12th century, the Collegiate Church of Roncesvalles had enjoyed the protectorate of the Sancho VII el Fuerte [king of the Kingdom of Navarra]. This meant that Roncesvalles had an increasingly large income. Moreover, its religious community was gaining importance among the clergy of the Kingdom of Navarra, not without arduous struggles with the Chapter of the Cathedral of Pamplona. From the middle of the 13th century, the priors of Roncesvalles had the pontifical privilege of using ring, crosier and other insignia, like any other bishop. The Prior of Roncesvalles thus turned into the most prominent figure in the Navarrese clergy after the bishop and became one of the monarch's advisors.​

From their Facebook page (translated):

Symbol of Splendour​

​

The most emblematic symbol of Roncesvalles unites in itself two fundamental aspects of the history of the Royal House and Pilgrims' Hospital of Roncesvalles: the staff of the prior and pastor ... and the sword of the warrior. ​

• the sword that from the beginning of the ancient history of the access roads to the Iberian peninsula tells of those warrior monks whose mission was to defend the pilgrims from the hundred and one dangers on the roads which were often covered in snow or ice and populated by wild animals or robbers. Old stories that fed into the legend of Roland or of the roldanes [?] of later centuries.
  
  
• the staff that tells us of the splendour of the magnificent Roncesvalles of the 13th and 14th century, which owned lands halfway around the known world and whose prior sat at the Cortes and pledged allegiance to the Kings of Navarre.

 

[Bradypus]

It's possible. Btw, I should of course have said "prior" of Roncesvalles and not "abbot".

Would I just be muddying the waters even more if I pointed out that the Prior of Roncesvalles is ex officio a Grand Abbot of Cologne?

Roncesvalles - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

es.wikipedia.org

 

[Kathar1na]

Would I just be muddying the waters even more if I pointed out that the Prior of Roncesvalles is ex officio a Grand Abbot of Cologne?

No, but it would make me sufficiently curious so that I would want to find out more about it . It made me think of Pope Francis who was a titular bishop of Auca aka Villafranca Montes de Oca while living in Argentina and probably never having set foot on the soil of this town on the Camino Frances in Spain. Maybe there are or were titular abbots, too?

I could not find anything enlightening in Spanish, English or German but found something in French on the website of the Camino Association of SJPP, according to which one author claims that this title appears in the official register of the priors of Roncesvalles since 1621 and it is a title that the archbishop of Cologne granted following the request of some German nobleman who was a pilgrim to Santiago ... hm ... a matter of wer's glaubt, wird selig?

But 1621 is long past the 13th and 14th century and long past the creation of the "Roncesvalles cross" emblem.

 

[Kathar1na]

OK, I read a bit more and it appears to be credible now. But I am going to stop, this is way more than @MegJD wanted to know.