Route Napoleon closed in winter.

[navarro]

Helo all: Now September is finishing and I´d like to comment you about Route Napoleon. Last winter Spanish and French authorities closed this route due to the risks for rescue people. However some people had to be rescued in very bad conditios, a lot of accummulated snow, sometimes more than 1 meter high, very low temperatures and into the nigth. A rescue in this conditions movilizes more tha 50 people that put their life in risk to help people.
Y think that this winter this route will be closed again fom october 31 to march 31. My wish is that nobody will take this route, there is an alternative route by Valcarlos-Ibañeta, and that rescue people had not to go out to rescue in the Napoleon route.
Thank you.

 

[t2andreo]

Amen!

 

[SYates]

A very timely reminder, thank you. Also for you winter pilgrims, keep an eye on http://www.aprinca.com/alberguesinvierno/ for up to date info of open albergues. Buen Camino, SY

 

[whariwharangi]

If you do decide to ignore the closure, make sure you have had previous experience with exposure to real winter and mountain weather ... preferably worse than anything route Napoleon can offer ... so you can say with a straight face you know what you are getting into.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Make sure you have a lot of money, too. They may charge you thousands of Euro for a rescue.

 

[SYates]

If you do decide to ignore the closure, make sure you have had previous experience with exposure to real winter and mountain weather ... preferably worse than anything route Napoleon can offer ... so you can say with a straight face you know what you are getting into.

That will not help if the person in question is caught, closed is closed. Buen Camino, SY

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

That will not help if the person in question is caught, closed is closed. Buen Camino, SY

I was hoping he was saying if you ignore the warnings, dig in and ride out the storm, don't call for help and make people risk their lives trying to save your silly...er..hide.

 

[whariwharangi]

That will not help if the person in question is caught, closed is closed. Buen Camino, SY

Define 'closed'. I sincerely doubt that means anyone found in the vicinity of the route Napoleon will be arrested or given a ticket.

It should mean that Darwin's rules apply; beyond this point there be dragons and you are on your own.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Define 'closed'. I sincerely doubt that means anyone found in the vicinity of the route Napoleon will be arrested or given a ticket.

It should mean that Darwin's rules apply; beyond this point there be dragons and you are on your own.

i'm guessing closed is when the route has the closed sign and pilgrims are told in the Pilgrim's office that the route is closed, with red X's on the maps. it's not like they can put a door on the mountain

edit: I read 'caught' to mean 'caught in a snowstorm requiring rescue' but could be wrong end edit

if people ignoring the rules just put themselves at risk, it would be one thing...but rescue crews are put at risk also. If someone wants to take their questionable genes out of the pool it's their decision, but they shouldn't risk the lives of others. As long as no rescue crews go after them, I agree with natural selection

 

[whariwharangi]

- Suggested gear list for winter on route napoleon

- x 12 malamute
-sled with traces for 12
-snow knife
-snow goggles
-parka
-wind pants
-mukluks
-gloves arctic
-balaklava (wool)
-snowshoes
-muktuk for a week

-plus all the other gear one normally takes on a camino

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

mmmm...mukluks and parkas....I feel all warm and toasty at the words . I've been issued a lot of senseless stuff in the military, but those two items were unbelievably welcomed. I chuckled to myself when I read on a different but related thread where someone suggested Koreans might not be used to snow, and remembered slogging through knee deep snow in Kunsan, very grateful for my mukluks and parka.

edit: not to make Korea sound arctic...I'm short

 

[Tincatinker]

@whariwharangi you forgot the 'Really Big Book of Excuses for Blatant Stupidity'; also available as an e-book but only for PC's.

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Come on people let's be responsible - experienced walkers have died in winter on this route. When the police close the route no one should attempt it.

 

[whariwharangi]

@whariwharangi you forgot the 'Really Big Book of Excuses for Blatant Stupidity'; also available as an e-book but only for PC's.

Why would you want to carry that sort of excess baggage?

Nothing stupid about crossing the route napoleon even in the worst weather if you have the gear and know how to use it. My list is tongue in cheek ... I wouldn't take muktuk for instance ... but there is no reason for stopping someone who is prepared.

The only 'stupid' that the closure is intended to forestall is people crossing the Pyrenees in December armed with the minimal gear most pilgrims already don't want to carry and with no knowledge of the conditions.

I see the attitude here all the time ... people asking if they really need a rain jacket or a jacket or a sleeping bag ... etc.

Don't get me wrong; I support the closure ... but it shouldn't be a blanket closure.

 

[SYates]

Define 'closed'. I sincerely doubt that means anyone found in the vicinity of the route Napoleon will be arrested or given a ticket. It should mean that Darwin's rules apply; beyond this point there be dragons and you are on your own.

Closed means huge big signs at the bifurcation of the two roads and also further on, including the odd police car being stationed there and turning people back that attempted the Route Napoleon when it is closed for safety reasons.

... Nothing stupid about crossing the route napoleon even in the worst weather if you have the gear and know how to use it. ... but there is no reason for stopping someone who is prepared...

It is stupid to offend against local laws. You/We are a guest in that country, it is forbidden you/we don't do it because we respect local laws. Really not rocket science! Buen Camino de la Vida, SY

 

[Tincatinker]

I think we are in complete agreement amigo. I am well aware that properly equipped and experienced winter mountain climbers and hikers will approach the Pyrenees with all due care and precaution. I was recommending that excellent, though currently fictitious, compendium to those who don't meet those standards of competence.

 

[JohnnieWalker]

I disagree entirely with the advice that it is ok to embark on the Route Napoleon "if you have the right equipment".
Equipment is only part of the issue - the problem on this route at times of the year is the occurrence of "white out" conditions - where visibility is reduced to almost nil. Walkers then easily get disorientated and very lost. That is exactly what happened to a fit, experienced and well equipped English pilgrim just a few years ago who sadly died.

This is why the police close the route and their advice should be respected by everyone.

 

[whariwharangi]

Closed means huge big signs at the bifurcation of the two roads and also further on, including the odd police car being stationed there and turning people back that attempted the Route Napoleon when it is closed for safety reasons.

It is stupid to offend against local laws. You/We are a guest in that country, it is forbidden you/we don't do it because we respect local laws. Really not rocket science! Buen Camino de la Vida, SY

Please point me to a link to the law. I can't find it.

 

[SYates]

Local law = local ordinance, sorry I am not a native English speaker, but if you see the police car standing at the bifurcation of the routes and turning pilgrims away from the Route Napoleon towards the Valcarlos route you might get an inkling that it is official. Buen Camino, SY

 

[whariwharangi]

I did find this:
http://www.americanpilgrims.org/assets/documents/news/napoleon_route_closure.pdf

 

[SYates]

I did find this:
http://www.americanpilgrims.org/assets/documents/news/napoleon_route_closure.pdf

Great find and if somebody still fancies to take this route they have to apply for permission and, I am guessing here, the authority that grants/denies that permission will have a good look at equipment, fitness and experience of the applicant(s). Buen Camino, SY

 

[Tincatinker]

This was rehearsed last year - see this thread https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...g-for-crossing-of-pyrenees.38133/#post-375833 and others.

There is no process by which anyone can apply for permission to walk the Route Napoleon when it is closed. The reference is to the authorities deciding to permit pilgrims to walk the Napoleon during the designated closure period in, presumably, safe and clement weather.

If anyone would like to rediscover last years heated debates (something to do with global warming perhaps) the search facility will lead them there. I note that the facts have not changed since last year. The route closes in 35 days time and stays that way 'till 31 March or later depending on prevailing conditions.

 

[whariwharangi]

Here it is:

http://www.turismo.navarra.es/NR/rd...8714/Resolución1522015cierreinvernalCStgo.pdf

As I read it you can get permission from the Agencia Navarra de Emergencias. Otherwise it is 'closed' at the Spanish Border.

 

[SYates]

Actually the Agencia Navarra de Emergencias as a separate body seems not to exist anymore and is now part of the Dirección General de Interior de Navarra. Contact details for those that want to apply for a special permit can be found here http://www.navarra.es/home_es/Gobie.../Estructura+Organica/?idunidadactual=10003206

If you do so, please tell us how it goes and Buen Camino, SY

 

[whariwharangi]

Come on people let's be responsible - experienced walkers have died in winter on this route. When the police close the route no one should attempt it.

Yeah ... lets be responsible. Except this is the nanny state looking after us instead of us taking responsibility for ourselves. I think it is this what sticks in my craw.

Inexperienced pilgrim is not usually an 'experienced walker', a fact recognized and used as the rationale in the law closing the route. A position I agree with.

Perhaps even 'experienced walker' doesn't cut it. I think however, the number of instances where rescue services are called upon to rescue 'experienced walkers' does not support this position.

However, for an experienced mountaineer, ... its a cake walk.

Not worth the bureaucratic hassle to get permission. If your aim is to walk the camino, Route Valcarlos will suffice. We can go mountaineering on our own somewhere else where nanny hasn't found us out yet.

 

[SYates]

... Except this is the nanny state looking after us instead of us taking responsibility for ourselves. ...

I agree with you to a certain extend, but every 'rescue case' I know of was completely and utterly convinced when starting off that they were perfectly equipped and experienced to take on XYZ challenge. And, subsequently, when this proved not to be the case, were putting the lives of the rescue teams in danger. And no, I am not speaking of the 'lets go in high heels up that mountain crew'.

Buen Camino, SY

 

[SYates]

Forgot to add - in the ultimate sense and in this context taking responsibility for one self would mean never, ever to call 112 or similar to be rescued. Correct? SY

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

I wonder if just because someone can do something, they ought to do it. I'm having trouble thinking of why even a very experienced mountaineer would think crossing the high route in the dead of winter was necessary--i.e. the benefit of doing it (rather than the low route) vs. the risk that something might happen to involve a winter rescue.

I haven't walked the low route but it sounds like there's a drivable road, which makes all the difference. I would not like to be part of the fire rescue team that took several hours of carrying a litter through snow to get the Brazilian woman down

edit: I've carried a litter only a mile in sand and on road...both relatively level, the road was easier.

 

[whariwharangi]

I wonder if just because someone can do something, they ought to do it. I'm having trouble thinking of why even a very experienced mountaineer would think crossing the high route in the dead of winter was necessary--i.e. the benefit of doing it (rather than the low route) vs. the risk that something might happen to involve a winter rescue.

I haven't walked the low route but it sounds like there's a drivable road, which makes all the difference. I would not like to be part of the fire rescue team that took several hours of carrying a litter through snow to get the Brazilian woman down

edit: I've carried a litter only a mile in sand and on road...both relatively level, the road was easier.

I will reiterate, for an experienced mountaineer, ... its a cake walk.

Perhaps the ski resort at Somport should be closed too. For the same reasons.

 

[beiramar]

Seriously, there is a lot of exaggeration here.
You realize that people are walking in much higher places in the Pyrenees all winter?
There are open refúgios for mountaineers on over 2.000m and there are loads of people around.
Some of my friends camp out in the Pyrenees in winter.
Don't make it seem like going to the South Pole or something like that.

 

[beiramar]

- Suggested gear list for winter on route napoleon

- x 12 malamute
-sled with traces for 12
-snow knife
-snow goggles
-parka
-wind pants
-mukluks
-gloves arctic
-balaklava (wool)
-snowshoes
-muktuk for a week

-plus all the other gear one normally takes on a camino

Instead of making fun of it, why not an actual packing list?

Smart to bring in case of snow and/or apparent bad weather:

Things to comfortably spend a night outside
- windsack, bivi sack or 4- season tent
- warm sleeping bag
- sleeping pad, preferably not inflatable (cause those suck up snow/water)
- gas stove and light pot or a thermos bottle filled with hot water
- some instant coffee/tea, a soup, a freeze dried meal
- calorie rich snacks, such as chocolate and nuts

Other equipment:
- goretex clothes
- wool base layer
- wool socks and hat
- headlight
- insulation layer in fleece/wool
- extra jacket in down or primaloft
- warm snowproof shoes

 

[SabsP]

Seriously, there is a lot of exaggeration here.
You realize that people are walking in much higher places in the Pyrenees all winter?
There are open refúgios for mountaineers on over 2.000m and there are loads of people around.
Some of my friends camp out in the Pyrenees in winter.
Don't make it seem like going to the South Pole or something like that.

I agree but : for experienced hikers and mountaineers. With the right equipment. And with a good knowledge of their own self, equipment and the changing factors of the weather conditions.

Not for those who start on the Camino with little to no knowledge of the Camino. Or coming from a region where they do not experience snow or rapidly changing weather condtions. Or for those who start hiking in sandals and a short because it seems warm enough and it does not snow when they start for the day. And not for those who cannot understand any French or Spanish warnings / words.

 

[spursfan]

Seriously, there is a lot of exaggeration here.
You realize that people are walking in much higher places in the Pyrenees all winter?
There are open refúgios for mountaineers on over 2.000m and there are loads of people around.
Some of my friends camp out in the Pyrenees in winter.
Don't make it seem like going to the South Pole or something like that.

Most of the dangerous activities are carried out by groups of people who self-select - I'm happy to walk above Chamonix up to 3000m in September when almost all the snow has melted - others with more skill and more dedicated equipment prefer to climb above the snow line - the authorities are happy to devote resources (helicopters, mountain rescue personnel, hospital) for rescuing those who get into serious difficulty

The Camino Frances is completely different - and the authorities here have sensibly decided that they are not prepared to devote resources to rescue anyone who gets into difficulty on the Route Napoleon during winter - and, as others have pointed out, there are plenty of places in the Pyrenees such as ski resorts that have such resources and hence are much better places to go for winter mountaineering

 

[beiramar]

I do absolutely agree that it is dangerous for the unprepared and under-equipped hikers.

There are many people on this forum who do not belong to this group, just as there are many peregrinos out there who don't either.

Walking over the foothills of the Pyrenees on a wide gravel track that works for jeeps is not mountaineering.

I walked up there last February and there were no signs that the trail was closed.

Then what about walking over O Cebreiro where you also get real snowstorms? Seems just as dangerous as the crossing into Spain.

O Cebreiro

• beiramar
• Sep 27, 2016
• 4

Walking into O Cebrero january 2015

 

[Deleted member 12253]

Helo all: Now September is finishing and I´d like to comment you about Route Napoleon. Last winter Spanish and French authorities closed this route due to the risks for rescue people. However some people had to be rescued in very bad conditios, a lot of accummulated snow, sometimes more than 1 meter high, very low temperatures and into the nigth. A rescue in this conditions movilizes more tha 50 people that put their life in risk to help people.
Y think that this winter this route will be closed again fom october 31 to march 31. My wish is that nobody will take this route, there is an alternative route by Valcarlos-Ibañeta, and that rescue people had not to go out to rescue in the Napoleon route.
Thank you.

Leaving on 20 October so should be ok. I always listen to advice in pilgrim office. Stupidly never wins

 

[domigee]

I do absolutely agree that it is dangerous for the unprepared and under-equipped hikers.

There are many people on this forum who do not belong to this group, just as there are many peregrinos out there who don't either.

Walking over the foothills of the Pyrenees on a wide gravel track that works for jeeps is not mountaineering.

I walked up there last February and there were no signs that the trail was closed.

Then what about walking over O Cebreiro where you also get real snowstorms? Seems just as dangerous as the crossing into Spain.

O Cebreiro

• beiramar
• Sep 27, 2016
• 4

Walking into O Cebrero january 2015

The so-called Napoleon route sees a lot of pilgrims, all determined they musn't miss the experience.... Very often at the beginning of their journey.
The decision to close that pass in the Winter months didn't happen by accident....
Obviously the local authorities felt they had to do it in order to stop the unprepared pilgrims who may come to harm

I agree, the conditions in the mountains after Rabanal and indeed O'Cebreiro can be just as bad if not worse.... But fewer 'newbies' in Winter?

I find it very sad 'they' had to take the decision to close the pass in Winter. Some people will just not listen and yes, it annoys me!

 

[MTtoCamino]

I do absolutely agree that it is dangerous for the unprepared and under-equipped hikers.

There are many people on this forum who do not belong to this group, just as there are many peregrinos out there who don't either.

Walking over the foothills of the Pyrenees on a wide gravel track that works for jeeps is not mountaineering.

I walked up there last February and there were no signs that the trail was closed.

Then what about walking over O Cebreiro where you also get real snowstorms? Seems just as dangerous as the crossing into Spain.

O Cebreiro

• beiramar
• Sep 27, 2016
• 4

Walking into O Cebrero january 2015

It simply doesn't matter if those have the experience or not. In the big picture every year people were dying. So they closed Napoleon. We get you have the ability, this is about those that don't & the government making the decision to try to stop the problem. I don't believe the government is keeping you from going winter camping. They just closed one route. Many places in the world to do that. Including France & Spain.

Any time a large group starts in a place it is the beginning that shows the issues, Ocebrio usually is not a starting point compared to Napoleon. I would also point out people occupy Ocebrio year round.

 

[Thornley]

Yeah ... lets be responsible. Except this is the nanny state looking after us instead of us taking responsibility for ourselves. I think it is this what sticks in my craw.

Inexperienced pilgrim is not usually an 'experienced walker', a fact recognized and used as the rationale in the law closing the route. A position I agree with.

Perhaps even 'experienced walker' doesn't cut it. I think however, the number of instances where rescue services are called upon to rescue 'experienced walkers' does not support this position.

However, for an experienced mountaineer, ... its a cake walk.

Not worth the bureaucratic hassle to get permission. If your aim is to walk the camino, Route Valcarlos will suffice. We can go mountaineering on our own somewhere else where nanny hasn't found us out yet.

For an experienced mountaineer you are correct , 100%
For others commencing without realising that in normal months Pamplona is the finish for many , i hope they they realise there is no insurance cover, as many an Aussie running with the bulls has found out.
In 08 we had to go via Valcarlos in May, mountain closed as were there ferries from UK to France , very dangerous itself on the floor .

Then again as the Spanish say ....you commence on our side , StJPP is the finish of the GR's in France.

 

[domigee]

.

Don't get me wrong; I support the closure ... but it shouldn't be a blanket closure.

I agree with you whariwharangi but sadly the blanket closure had to be because of the - how shall I put it without seeming offensive? - inexperience, thoughtlessness of some? I remember at the time thinking 'but how can you close a mountain???' and also 'how sad'.

But....Some people think they HAVE to go through that route to experience the Camino... And they will try and do it at all costs, it seems....
And are likely to be the first people to complain if they come a-cropper :"but THEY should have closed that route'" if it was dangerous

 

[RobertS26]

Come on people let's be responsible - experienced walkers have died in winter on this route. When the police close the route no one should attempt it.

But, but, but . . . "it's their Camino" and aren't they doing "their Camino" "their way," which means none of us can criticize their decision? [Please note the sarcasm font]

 

[C clearly]

But, but, but . . . "it's their Camino" and aren't they doing "their Camino" "their way," which means none of us can criticize their decision? [Please note the sarcasm font]

Haven't we put that to bed yet? Sorry, but the sarcasm loses its effect when you are beating a dead horse. How's that for some scrambled (beyond mixed) metaphors?

 

[Tia Valeria]

This type of topic always puts me in mind of our son's comment to our (then) 2 year old grand-daughter. 'B.... - what part of No don't you understand?'
The situation as now is because of people who would not listen to or take advice- and some still do not take 'No' as the answer.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

There are some nakedly defiant two year old comments!!!

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

there are old pilots, and bold pilots.....

 

[SYates]

but no old bold pilots ...

 

[Angel-hart]

Take the advice of the people in the office at SJPP they want you to have a great starting experience, and Camino. Remember the goal is getting to Santiago safe and sound, not getting over hill via a specific route.

 

[Lynda t]

- Suggested gear list for winter on route napoleon

- x 12 malamute
-sled with traces for 12
-snow knife
-snow goggles
-parka
-wind pants
-mukluks
-gloves arctic
-balaklava (wool)
-snowshoes
-muktuk for a week

-plus all the other gear one normally takes on a camino

Seal blubber for the dogs

 

[sillydoll]

Surprisingly, it is the early spring snow storms that catch one by surprise and most deaths have occurred in March and April on the mountain. Spring comes late to the mountain areas in the north and there have been dozens of rescues, and stories of pilgrims being caught in blizzards but who lived to tell their tales. Some were not so lucky.

A Brazilian peregrino , 48 years old, disappeared on January 13, 2002 in the Pyrenees and found dead on January 23, 2002 by two pilgrims.

A French pilgrim , 78 years old, disappeared on April 3, 2002 between Saint-Jean-Pied de Port and Roncesvalles and found dead a few days later by hikers near Ortzanzurieta (Navarra).

Christine Gall, a French pilgrim died in the mountains after starting her pilgrimage in 2006 in Saint Jean Pied de Port.

Chris Phillips , experienced fell walker 51 Scottish pilgrim left Saint Jean Pied de Port for Roncesvalles but did not arrive because of a snow storm. He was found the following day April 4, 2007 just 50m from the road and taken to a hospital in Pamplona, where he died of hyperthermia.

Gilbert Janeri, 8 March 2003 , Brazilian pilgrim, 44-year-old, who was found dead in the Ozanzurieta close to Roncesvalles (Navarra), on March 22, 2013

 

[Sara B.]

Helo all: Now September is finishing and I´d like to comment you about Route Napoleon. Last winter Spanish and French authorities closed this route due to the risks for rescue people. However some people had to be rescued in very bad conditios, a lot of accummulated snow, sometimes more than 1 meter high, very low temperatures and into the nigth. A rescue in this conditions movilizes more tha 50 people that put their life in risk to help people.
Y think that this winter this route will be closed again fom october 31 to march 31. My wish is that nobody will take this route, there is an alternative route by Valcarlos-Ibañeta, and that rescue people had not to go out to rescue in the Napoleon route.
Thank you.

Hi all,
I'm planning to start from SJPP on April 2 and am hoping to take the Route Napoleon. Besides the pilgrim office in St. Jean, is the status of the trail's opening posted anywhere on the web? Has anyone hiked that route in the very beginning of April to comment on conditions during their experience?
Thanks, Sara

 

[sillydoll]

As posted above - its the unpredictability of spring snow storms that is so dangerous.
Forecasts can be for clear skies and 10km up the hill a blizzard rolls in. Complete white-outs are common and like Chris Phillips, you could be 50m from a road and not know it.
Even if the weather is clear, take your cell phone and remember 112 is the world wide emergency number to call. Take a 'space blanket' (one of those silver foil blankets) to keep you warm. A bright scarf or sarong that can be seen against the snow is useful. Other tips for walking in Spring here: http://amawalker.blogspot.co.za/2009/04/walking-camino-in-spring.html

 

[Sara B.]

As posted above - its the unpredictability of spring snow storms that is so dangerous.
Forecasts can be for clear skies and 10km up the hill a blizzard rolls in. Complete white-outs are common and like Chris Phillips, you could be 50m from a road and not know it.
Even if the weather is clear, take your cell phone and remember 112 is the world wide emergency number to call. Take a 'space blanket' (one of those silver foil blankets) to keep you warm. A bright scarf or sarong that can be seen against the snow is useful. Other tips for walking in Spring here: http://amawalker.blogspot.co.za/2009/04/walking-camino-in-spring.html

Thanks! That link is very helpful. We are not opposed to Valcarlos and will definitely sure on the side of caution. A bright scarf is great advice too!

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

these are from 14 April 2012. It had been shorts-weather in the 80s the week before I arrived in SJPdP. It was cool and clear, but snow was expected (edit: in my defense, in 2 days). I did not get to see the majestic views from the high road as it became quite suddenly very white every where. I did not take pictures of the worst of it bc I was concentrating on getting off the moutaintop. I've had survival training and had appropriate supplies to over-night in snow, but that should never be a goal. Why? because when your pink little bottom doesn't show up in RV but the pilgrim's office in SJPdP said you've left, someone will risk their life coming to look for you. It was clear once reaching RV, and the snow caught up then overtook the road out the next day. IMHO april is a pretty, and pretty unpredictable month. edit: can't figure out what happened w the picture order but you get the idea

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

the one leaving SJPdP

 

[navarro]

That will not help if the person in question is caught, closed is closed. Buen Camino, SY

Spanish and French authorities don´t ignore help petitions and as last winter will aid and rescue everybody in a trouble. But very probably, you can get a big fine, and the cost of rescue and hospital if need. As example, if an helicopter is need its costs about 3000 Euros an hour.

 

[navarro]

Hi all,
I'm planning to start from SJPP on April 2 and am hoping to take the Route Napoleon. Besides the pilgrim office in St. Jean, is the status of the trail's opening posted anywhere on the web? Has anyone hiked that route in the very beginning of April to comment on conditions during their experience?
Thanks, Sara

 

[navarro]

On April weather in that area can change suddenly in few hours, although the day begins with suuny and clear fog can appear in few minutes on high areas. Risk of great snows is less than in winter, but exist the probability of late snows.

 

[domigee]

Hi all,
I'm planning to start from SJPP on April 2 and am hoping to take the Route Napoleon. Besides the pilgrim office in St. Jean, is the status of the trail's opening posted anywhere on the web?

The trail is open after 31st March. The pilgrim's office will advise the day before or on the day if it is safe to walk it AND also the auberge at Orrisson. They know their stuff and it isn't in their interest to say 'ah no, sorry, can't walk it at the mo.'
If they say it shouldn't be walked, then it shouldn't be walked!

Also bear in mind, if the weather is not good, even on a day when it is perfectly safe to walk, you will see NOTHING.

 

[SYates]

Spanish and French authorities don´t ignore help petitions and as last winter will aid and rescue everybody in a trouble. But very probably, you can get a big fine, and the cost of rescue and hospital if need. As example, if an helicopter is need its costs about 3000 Euros an hour.

Language problem here ;-) I wrote "That will not help ..." not "They will not help ..." referring to this previous post and especially its last sentence:

If you do decide to ignore the closure, make sure you have had previous experience with exposure to real winter and mountain weather ... preferably worse than anything route Napoleon can offer ... so you can say with a straight face you know what you are getting into.

Buen Camino, SY *fellow non-native English speaker*

 

[Saint Mike II]

Yeah ... lets be responsible. Except this is the nanny state looking after us instead of us taking responsibility for ourselves. I think it is this what sticks in my craw!

Well I don't really care if it sticks in your "craw". This is Spain & they are entitled to enact any sensible laws that they deem necessary. As I read it the local provincial authorities got sick & tired of rescuing idiots! It was not a "nanny state" decision. They were fed up with foreign embassies in Madrid demanding that they take action to "save" the foreign citizen (from themselves!). So if you do not wish to abide by Spanish laws don't come. It's as simple as that!!!!

 

[navarro]

Why would you want to carry that sort of excess baggage?

Nothing stupid about crossing the route napoleon even in the worst weather if you have the gear and know how to use it. My list is tongue in cheek ... I wouldn't take muktuk for instance ... but there is no reason for stopping someone who is prepared.

The only 'stupid' that the closure is intended to forestall is people crossing the Pyrenees in December armed with the minimal gear most pilgrims already don't want to carry and with no knowledge of the conditions.

I see the attitude here all the time ... people asking if they really need a rain jacket or a jacket or a sleeping bag ... etc.

Don't get me wrong; I support the closure ... but it shouldn't be a blanket closure.

 

[navarro]

Two weeks ago I was in Roncesvalles an I talked with some people of the area. They were ¿astonished? no, much more than astonished about how some pilgrims cross this area. People without equipent, as if they were at home, peple with heavy sun burns, with sandals, wearing light clothes. On te other side people equipped as if they were at Himalaya. Going from SJPP to Roncesvalles is not difficult, it is not climb a great mountain , but needs a minimun of training, the route is long and the slope is high but a normal trained people can afford it. Then ¿What is the problem? Problems are two, first the route, The route runs along 25 km are to climb up from 165 meters altitude in SJPP to 1400 at Lepoeder. And 5 km to go down to Roncesvalles. if you walk at a media of 4 km/hour you need five hours to reach Lepoeder. Easy, but if you are not trained with difficulty you will get that medi because you will need to stop for refreshing. In summer there in not a great problem exceptin heat. You have 14 hours to arrive. ¿But in Winter? In winter daylight could be less than 10 hours, with a media of 3 km you need about 7 hours to arrive to Lepoeder and you need at least 1 hour more to arrive to Roncesvalles. As we can see we are not plenty of time.

 

[navarro]

@whariwharangi: You are largely right, of course, but I think one doesn't talk about this in front of the kids ... As to the legal provisions you are looking for: they were published in the Boletín Oficial de Navarra Número 138 de 17 de julio de 2015 and the title is RESOLUCIÓN 152/2015, de 1 de julio, por la que se establecen medidas de restricción de paso por la variante este del Camino de Santiago en su primera etapa, a la entrada por Navarra, desde el 1 de noviembre, hasta el 31 de marzo. They are, obviously, in force on Spanish territory only. You find the complete text if you google for it.

Edited to add:
This part of the Camino de Santiago is closed for all pilgrims from 1 November to 31 March. No permission, no exception, nada. The danger is not only whiteouts and bad weather. The danger is that people do not know this mountain pass and what to expect in winter conditions. I've seen photos of the Brasilian/Belgian woman who had to be rescued last year and got a bill of several thousand euros. For a long time, the road looks lovely, blue sky, very little snow on the tarmac, footprints and tyre marks, a fabulous winter walk. Further up, it gets dark, it gets cold, you are tired and the snow gets deeper and deeper and very deep indeed, in particular in the stretch between the two cols ... don't go there. Book a week's holidays in the Swiss mountains, they have great and safe winter walks there.

 

[navarro]

Actually the Agencia Navarra de Emergencias as a separate body seems not to exist anymore and is now part of the Dirección General de Interior de Navarra. Contact details for those that want to apply for a special permit can be found here http://www.navarra.es/home_es/Gobie.../Estructura+Organica/?idunidadactual=10003206

If you do so, please tell us how it goes and Buen Camino, SY

It´s true

Actually the Agencia Navarra de Emergencias as a separate body seems not to exist anymore and is now part of the Dirección General de Interior de Navarra. Contact details for those that want to apply for a special permit can be found here http://www.navarra.es/home_es/Gobie.../Estructura+Organica/?idunidadactual=10003206

If you do so, please tell us how it goes and Buen Camino, SY

This change was done more than a year ago. The system goes as before, its only an adminstrative redistribution. If you are in troble you can call 112 as ever do.

 

[navarro]

Two weeks ago I was in Roncesvalles an I talked with some people of the area. They were ¿astonished? no, much more than astonished about how some pilgrims cross this area. People without equipent, as if they were at home, peple with heavy sun burns, with sandals, wearing light clothes. On te other side people equipped as if they were at Himalaya. Going from SJPP to Roncesvalles is not difficult, it is not climb a great mountain , but needs a minimun of training, the route is long and the slope is high but a normal trained people can afford it. Then ¿What is the problem? Problems are two, first the route, The route runs along 25 km are to climb up from 165 meters altitude in SJPP to 1400 at Lepoeder. And 5 km to go down to Roncesvalles. if you walk at a media of 4 km/hour you need five hours to reach Lepoeder. Easy, but if you are not trained with difficulty you will get that medi because you will need to stop for refreshing. In summer there in not a great problem exceptin heat. You have 14 hours to arrive. ¿But in Winter? In winter daylight could be less than 10 hours, with a media of 3 km you need about 7 hours to arrive to Lepoeder and you need at least 1 hour more to arrive to Roncesvalles. As we can see we are not plenty of time.

 

[navarro]

Second Problem: Weather In summer problems with weather could be due to heat, and dehidratation, if you have a problem acess to you can be easy, there are roads and farmerpaths near the route so a vehicle can approach near you.
¿But in Winter? In autumn fog and rain are very common and in spite of marks of the route yo can get lost, It is only a probability. In winter snow can be copious an can reach esily in some points more than 1 meter thichness covering signals. Fog is very usual and you can get lost easily. The forestal paht to access Lepoeder is unpracticable in winter and rescue crew must arrive there on foot from Ibañeta about two hours if snow is fresh, low temperature can reach 10-15 under cero degrees in the night and no refuge sites. Helicopters cannot operate nor under night, snowing, rainin or fog conditions. This is the real reason to ban this route, it is not safe for recuers to rescue samebody in that conditios. And its more frecuent than we like.

 

[navarro]

I did find this:
http://www.americanpilgrims.org/assets/documents/news/napoleon_route_closure.pdf

 

[navarro]

https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=...fk3WMs-1zvmru_iog&sig2=3ELNFIdRC8baKdGW-yd7pA

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Trying to find this thread I instead came across one very similar from 2015. It was interesting in that some participants in this thread argued opposing views in that one Well we all change. My favorite post on that one followed an exchange of views contrasting closing route Napoleon but allowing the running of the bulls in Pamplona. After several "enthusiastic " statements of opinions @victoria_perigrina suggested a solution of running the bulls on the route Napoleon. That will be what makes me laugh all day today.

 

[Thornley]

Thanks! That link is very helpful. We are not opposed to Valcarlos and will definitely sure on the side of caution. A bright scarf is great advice too!

You will see nothing if the weather is anything but good.
On the Valcarlos path the forrest floor is beautiful but can be twice as hard as Napoleon if there has been heavy rain in the preceding days.

 

[whariwharangi]

Well I don't really care if it sticks in your "craw". This is Spain & they are entitled to enact any sensible laws that they deem necessary. As I read it the local provincial authorities got sick & tired of rescuing idiots! It was not a "nanny state" decision. They were fed up with foreign embassies in Madrid demanding that they take action to "save" the foreign citizen (from themselves!). So if you do not wish to abide by Spanish laws don't come. It's as simple as that!!!!

Okay.

I can get irretrievably lost in much worse terrain and in much worse conditions without having to travel to Spain. Cheaper too.

I'll try and make a neat corpse.

 

[Andrew411]

Helo all: Now September is finishing and I´d like to comment you about Route Napoleon. Last winter Spanish and French authorities closed this route due to the risks for rescue people. However some people had to be rescued in very bad conditios, a lot of accummulated snow, sometimes more than 1 meter high, very low temperatures and into the nigth. A rescue in this conditions movilizes more tha 50 people that put their life in risk to help people.
Y think that this winter this route will be closed again fom october 31 to march 31. My wish is that nobody will take this route, there is an alternative route by Valcarlos-Ibañeta, and that rescue people had not to go out to rescue in the Napoleon route.
Thank you.

 

[Andrew411]

Is the route closed as a matter of policy no matter what the weather conditions are? I am travelling to SJPP on 01/11/16 and had hoped to do the napoleons route on 02/11/16 if weather conditions permitted. Does anyone know if there is a point of contact where I can find out if the route is closed from 1st November. Thanks

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Is the route closed as a matter of policy no matter what the weather conditions are? I am travelling to SJPP on 01/11/16 and had hoped to do the napoleons route on 02/11/16 if weather conditions permitted. Does anyone know if there is a point of contact where I can find out if the route is closed from 1st November. Thanks

I believe it is Closed from Nov to Mar inclusive, sorry. Perhaps you could change travel dates, or consider all the posts about the beauty of the Valcarlos route, the fact that Valcarlos is the original pilgrim route, etc.
sorry.

edit: in between the personal commentary in the posts above, you will find the links and quotes of the law that forbids use of the Napoleon during that time. if you use the forum search box for Napoleon closed you will also find a thread from 2015 again listing the statutes. Finally, you can ask at the Pilgrims' Office in SJPdP when you arrive, but they will again tell you it is closed.

 

[MTtoCamino]

Is the route closed as a matter of policy no matter what the weather conditions are? I am travelling to SJPP on 01/11/16 and had hoped to do the napoleons route on 02/11/16 if weather conditions permitted. Does anyone know if there is a point of contact where I can find out if the route is closed from 1st November. Thanks

Something to mention as well following up Smallest Sparrow comments is the simple clarification of numerous routes all along the Francis you will find. If you look in the guide books you will have to make choices of what route suites you. The Nepolion is just one of many, you can't divide your body into 3-4 parts to do them all at the same time. So I suggest you get use to the fact you are limited in choice. Just as the time of year you choose is a personal choice. So if you accept the Valcarlos route you are simply realizing that it is silly to get stubborn about it, as the Camino forces one to make choices every day. Those choices will determine the arrival into Santiago or Finnesterre.
Buen Camino

 

[C clearly]

Is the route closed as a matter of policy no matter what the weather conditions are?

Yes.

 

[Thornley]

r Finnesterre.

Or Muxia

 

[Felipe]

The French forum "Au coeur du chemin" (of Association des Amis du Chemin de St Jacques en Pyrénées,
I believe they are the good people who deal with the "accueil" in SJPP) has published a list of fine and rescue tariffs for walkers that don't obey the Napoleon route winter interdiction. They mention a decree of Comunidad Foral de Navarra, but the link or source is not provided.
(my obviously non-official translation)
Fine, up to 12.000€
For rescue (without exceptions):
For every rescue team member: 30€
Ambulance: 65€
Jeep, truck, 30€
Ambulance helicopter 136o €
Rescue helicopter € 1400.00
http://www.aucoeurduchemin.org/spip/Actualites/ACCUEIL-TOUTE-L-ANNEE#forum46832

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Fine, up to 12.000€

just to clarify for the Americans reading this, the decimal point in 12.000 Euro would be the equivalent of 12,000--correct? as in a possible cap of 12,000 Euro with the breakdown charges beneath? or is that a 12 euro fine, plus the charges beneath

edit: maybe the regulations forbidding the use of Napoleon in winter, and these fines, should be pinned somewhere prominently on this forum

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

i think the 12,000 euro fine may be what finally stops the majority of foolishness...kind of like 'that' rail bridge on the Norte...sudden death, no problem, but put a huge risk of fine and everyone says 'oh, maybe there's a different way we can get there'

 

[SYates]

Yes, it means 12 thousand Euro, not 12 Euro ;-) SY

 

[Felipe]

just to clarify for the Americans reading this, the decimal point in 12.000 Euro would be the equivalent of 12,000--correct?

Oh, I knew about the odd and weird English date format, but I had not noticed the "decimal point issue"...You live and learn. Thanks, I will remember it.
Yes, it is up to 12,000, then.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

Oh, I knew about the odd and weird English date format, but had not noticed the "decimal point issue"...You live and learn. Thanks, I will remember it.
Yes, it is up to 12,000, then.

just closing the American pilgrim loop hole... great post, thanks
it's good for them to learn before they go shopping, also

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

I think pilgrims in SJPdP should be required to read and sign an acknowledgment that they were told the route was closed and are aware of the fines.

 

[Felipe]

There has been in Spain some discussion about the new regulations that charge fines of tariffs for rescue when there is evident recklessness (as when they go to forbidden routes or places...) On the one side there is the "punitive approach" (fines and tariffs as dissuasive measures) and the "financial view" (why do taxpayers have to pay for rescuing imprudent people?) versus the "public health concern" (fines and heavy tariffs could result in people in serious distress not calling for rescue when they should, so to otherwise avoidable fatalities). In can see the merits in both opinions...not an easy transaction.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

I agree it is a difficult line to walk (although I personally found the big signs on train tracks warning about the fine very persuasive)...I think it is only fair pilgrims know they will be charged if they ignore the prohibitions... most people know they will get a bill for an ambulance, but they still call 911 (even in such an under-insured country as the US). I'm just sorry pilgrims (and most of them NOT Spaniards since according to this forum they start in RV) are causing such ethical and financial problems for our most generous host country.

edit for this (which hopefully shows the signs and the decrease in trespassing on tracks after posting)
http://restrail.eu/toolbox/IMG/pdf/1_warning_signs_and_posters_cidaut_spain.pdf

 

[JLuis]

The Comunidad Foral de Navarra decree:
http://www.navarra.es/home_es/Actualidad/BON/Boletines/2015/138/Anuncio-10/
And the prices below are per hour, not the fine of course, that's a one time fee.

The French forum "Au coeur du chemin" (of Association des Amis du Chemin de St Jacques en Pyrénées,
I believe they are the good people who deal with the "accueil" in SJPP) has published a list of fine and rescue tariffs for walkers that don't obey the Napoleon route winter interdiction. They mention a decree of Comunidad Foral de Navarra, but the link or source is not provided.
(my obviously non-official translation)
Fine, up to 12.000€
For rescue (without exceptions):
For every rescue team member: 30€
Ambulance: 65€
Jeep, truck, 30€
Ambulance helicopter 136o €
Rescue helicopter € 1400.00
http://www.aucoeurduchemin.org/spip/Actualites/ACCUEIL-TOUTE-L-ANNEE#forum46832

 

[Taglia]

I will walk from SJPP to Roncesvalles on Saturday (29th October). The weather forecast seems good, does anybody know the status of the Route Napoleon?

 

[SYates]

Theoretically it should be still open, but the best advice you will receive at the pilgrims office in SJPdP. Ask there and then take the route they recommend. Bear also in mind that the albergue in Orrison might be already closed for the season. Buen Camino, SY

 

[Thornley]

I will walk from SJPP to Roncesvalles on Saturday (29th October). The weather forecast seems good, does anybody know the status of the Route Napoleon?

Better wait until the experts in St J advise Taglia.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

And this is what the sign looks like:

View attachment 30168

And here is the official announcement from the Navarra Government concerning the closure for the period 1 November 2016 until 31 March 2017:
http://www.navarra.es/home_es/Actua...1/Restrigindo+Camino+Santiago+en+Lepoeder.htm

really can't be any more clear than that
do you by any chance know where they post the signs?

 

[Thornley]

I will walk from SJPP to Roncesvalles on Saturday (29th October). The weather forecast seems good, does anybody know the status of the Route Napoleon?

What happened?
Weather ?
How is the progress ?
Cheers

 

[Taglia]

What happened?
Weather ?
How is the progress ?
Cheers

I finished my short Camino on Saturday in Burgos as planned, the weather was great for most part of the week but last 2 days were horrible, I walked the last 15km under pouring rain . I did the route Napoleon on the 29th October and it was amazing. I am so glad that they close the route Napoleon during the winter, there are some many pilgrims that are completely unprepared.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I will reiterate, for an experienced mountaineer, ... its a cake walk.

Perhaps the ski resort at Somport should be closed too. For the same reasons.

But there's a tarmac alternative up both sides to Somport, whereas the forbidden route is the tunnel. The two routes are completely different.

You're comparing apples and oranges -- and to describe a mountain path through relative wilderness in winter as a "cake walk" is quite irresponsible IMO.

 

[Thornley]

I finished my short Camino on Saturday in Burgos as planned, the weather was great for most part of the week but last 2 days were horrible, I walked the last 15km under pouring rain . I did the route Napoleon on the 29th October and it was amazing. I am so glad that they close the route Napoleon during the winter, there are some many pilgrims that are completely unprepared.

Thanks for the reply Tahlia,
The last 2 days into Burgos are CRAP in the best of times .
For you doing this in early winter , on your first camino is a credit.

I'm glad you mention how many are UNDERPREPARED ,
This is a simple walk as long as you remember any one of the six P's in this case........prepare.
May you continue at your leisure and love the remainder,
Well done.

 

[Thornley]

Yeah ... lets be responsible. Except this is the nanny state looking after us instead of us taking responsibility for ourselves. I think it is this what sticks in my craw.

Inexperienced pilgrim is not usually an 'experienced walker', a fact recognized and used as the rationale in the law closing the route. A position I agree with.

Perhaps even 'experienced walker' doesn't cut it. I think however, the number of instances where rescue services are called upon to rescue 'experienced walkers' does not support this position.

However, for an experienced mountaineer, ... its a cake walk.

Not worth the bureaucratic hassle to get permission. If your aim is to walk the camino, Route Valcarlos will suffice. We can go mountaineering on our own somewhere else where nanny hasn't found us out yet.

I live in a NANNY state here in Australia.
However I am also disheartened to read about a Pilgrim dying within the last few days crossing the pass.

I think we must be more sensitive about this and forget how experienced us "fireman" can be.

 

[whariwharangi]

But there's a tarmac alternative up both sides to Somport, whereas the forbidden route is the tunnel. The two routes are completely different.

You're comparing apples and oranges -- and to describe a mountain path through relative wilderness in winter as a "cake walk" is quite irresponsible IMO.

I wouldn't even describe it as 'relative wilderness'. Its a cake walk ... even in winter. The only irresponsible thing is to walk on it without previous mountain experience.

 

[whariwharangi]

I live in a NANNY state here in Australia.
However I am also disheartened to read about a Pilgrim dying within the last few days crossing the pass.

I think we must be more sensitive about this and forget how experienced us "fireman" can be.

Yeah ... sad thing his dying. Fact is though he didn't cross the Napoleon route ... he died on the Valcarlos route. He didn't die from weather conditions ... he died from injuries sustained in a fall. His dying relates to this thread as oranges to onions.

Fahrenheit 451 was written by Ray Bradbury. I'm not a fireman.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I wouldn't even describe it as 'relative wilderness'. Its a cake walk ... even in winter. The only irresponsible thing is to walk on it without previous mountain experience.

No -- describing it as a "cake walk" is irresponsible, because you have no control over who might read and misunderstand that characterisation. Including arrogant, stupid, inexperienced people, who may have those defects through no fault of your own.

A path that's do-able only by those with sufficient mountain & winter experience & the appropriate kit is not a "cake walk". It requires experience, training, foresight, clear-minded risk-avoidance and risk-management, the athletic minimum to navigate it, which is non-trivial, including sufficient stamina and endurance, and etc etc etc. Just because the challenges of the Route Napoléon are lesser than those of the Pacific Crest Trail or the Via Alpina, or even the Pyrenees Crest Trail or the Corsican GR, doesn't make a "cake walk" of the Route Napoléon in Winter. Particularly not when many in here might have difficulty with it even in ideal conditions.

To make a simile from my own personal experience -- I've walked once from Paris to Compostela in 44 days, averaging about 40K daily ; anyone strong and healthy enough could do similar, with proper training and preparation and so on and so forth. But I would never describe it as a "cake walk" just because many in here would be capable of it a priori at the physical level, because that would be a lie, even though the Way itself from Paris presents no particular material challenge as a mountain trail can. It was a significant challenge, as much spiritually as in both physical and mental stamina and endurance.

It is not reasonable to belittle the more extreme ways of walking the Camino as "cake walks".

 

[Thornley]

I'm not a fireman.

Never said you were a fireman,
Said the word US , not you.
Can i ask when you walked the Napoleon route ?
Your expertise on these matters whilst often quoted do not show your experience about same.
I notice Jabba did this 22 areas ago and as soon as he mentioned the GR20 i realised he was aware of the facts about a daily walk in the winter months.

 

[whariwharangi]

Never said you were a fireman,
Said the word US , not you.
Can i ask when you walked the Napoleon route ? , y
Your expertise on these matters whilst often quoted do not show your experience about same.
I notice Jabba did this 22 areas ago and as soon as he mentioned the GR20 i realised he was aware of the facts about a daily walk in the winter months.

I walked Napoleon route 25 Oct 2012.

I have hiked in mountains for over 30 years.