Ruins of San Antón

[Bert45]

The information board at the Ruins of San Antón states that the convent was founded in 1146 under the patronage of King Alfonso VII. The same sign says that the ruins are 14th century, while a large sign nearby used to say that they are 15th century [https://medium.com/a-walking-miracle/day-13-2-b82e5492a60 posted Dec 2020] A new large sign says they are 14th century (I was there in October this year). It seems odd to me that they can date the foundation to a precise year (1146), but provide no date for the building of the convent of which we now see the ruins – sometime in the 14th century – oops, sorry 15th century. Do you know when the convent was built, more or less?
The sign goes on to say that "The baroque altarpiece is preserved in the church of San Juan Bautista." Do you know how many churches in Spain are dedicated to San Juan Bautista? A lot, I bet. OK , it's probably the church of San Juan Bautista in Castrojeriz, but how much would it have cost to add the name of the town?

 

[David Tallan]

I suspect the dating of ruins may be made more complicated if it the buildings were built over a period of centuries, as was not entirely uncommon in large medieval ecclesiastic structures. For example, the construction of the Cathedral in Burgos began in 1221 and was completed in 1567. Which century would you say the building dates to?

There may be a lot of churches in Spain dedicated to St. John the Baptist. I expect there are even more devoted to the Virgin Mary.

 

[J Willhaus]

My husband bought me a little booklet by @Rebekah Scott on San Anton a few years ago. Great little booklet. Don't know if she has any left? You can scroll down and see it here:

peaceable projects

www.peaceableprojects.org

 

[JabbaPapa]

San Antón will have been independent of Castrojériz.

As to the dating discrepancies, the foundation of the Abbey, the age of the remains, and the dating of one particular element can of course be divergent from each other.

 

[J Willhaus]

San Antón will have been independent of Castrojériz.

As to the dating discrepancies, the foundation of the Abbey, the age of the remains, and the dating of one particular element can of course be divergent from each other.

I am not so sure. Rebekah's book indicates there there was some connection with Castrojeriz, I think. Maybe she will comment.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I am not so sure. Rebekah's book indicates there there was some connection with Castrojeriz, I think. Maybe she will comment.

A connection is one thing, but Mediaeval Administrative independence is another.

An Abbot would be, and often still is even today, entirely independent of his local Bishop. A major Abbot is in fact of ecclesial rank equal to that of a Bishop.

I stayed in one Abbey in France on one of my Caminos where there was a nearby women's convent.

The monks were subjected only to their own hierarchy, whereas the women were in ordinary obedience to the local parish priest.

OTOH, the monks had no authority over the nuns.

 

[J Willhaus]

A connection is one thing, but Mediaeval Administrative independence is another.

An Abbot would be, and often still is even today, entirely independent of his local Bishop. A major Abbot is in fact of ecclesial rank equal to that of a Bishop.

Yes, I am sure you know more about this. I will see if I can find the little booklet if she doesn't respond. I have moved a couple of times since then, so I am going to have to look for it.

 

[Bradypus]

An Abbot would be, and often still is even today, entirely independent of his local Bishop. A major Abbot is in fact of ecclesial rank equal to that of a Bishop.

There are also a few odd surviving examples of a territorial abbacy - where the abbot of a religious house carries out the functions of bishop in parishes in the surrounding district which are not part of any traditional diocese. The Augustinian community of Saint Maurice on the Swiss section of the Via Francigena is one such house. Ecclesiastical matters are rarely clear-cut and simple!

Territorial abbey - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[J Willhaus]

Here's the booklet description from her website:
"Monasterio San Anton de Castrojeriz was founded 900 years ago as a fortress for warrior monks reconquering Spain and protecting pilgrims on the Camino de Santiago trail. Its story includes a half-mad saint, a gruesome disease, a jeweled arm with healing powers, and fund-raising pigs."

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I've been looking around. I've gotten some information that, put together, sounds plausible but I cannot vouch for its accuracy.

Let's go with Alfonso starting the convent in 1146. Somewhere along the way it was used as a pilgrim hospital. We can see online that Pedro I of Castile (reigned 1350-1366 in the 14th century) had it as a palace but I'm not finding if the then standing building was used for that or if it was refurbished or constructed anew or even if it was finished. Sometime after Pedro was deposed a church was constructed. Perhaps started in the 14th century and finished in the 15th. I'm guessing that the arches were built last.

Peter of Castile - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Monastery at Castrojeriz, artwork - Stock Image - C017/7252

Monastery at Castrojeriz. Cutaway artwork showing external and internal details and stained glass windows of the San Anton (Saint Anthony) monastery in Castrojeriz, Burgos province, Spain. JOSE ANTONIO PEÑAS/SCIENCE PHOTO LIBRARY

www.sciencephoto.com

 

[Rebekah Scott]

The dates, as you can see, are not precise. The ruins themselves are not precise. The site of the current ruins was (far as we know) originally a hunting lodge owned by a king. He donated it to the Order of San Anton Abad, a group of French monks who evolved into healers. They specialized in "St. Anthony's fire," aka "ergotism," whose symptoms include hallucinations, a loss of circulation, and blackened limbs. The order had monastery/hospitals throughout Spain and Europe, this particular one was the headquarters in Spain. It sat along the Camino trail, and also offered hospitality to pilgrims, too. The buildings went through several phases of construction, demolition, and varied uses as the order grew in power and then went into decline. It was finally shut down entirely when the Spanish government disentailed monasteries in the early 19th century. It was sold into private hands, its goods scattered around other local churches. For many years it was a barnyard.
The ruins you see today are what remains of the 14th and 15th century chapel. The albergue is built into what was the secular entryway; the monks and their staff and families lived in the monastery buildings where the farmhouse and barns stand now.
If you want the gory details send me an IM and I will get a booklet to you.

 

[Bert45]

The dates, as you can see, are not precise. The ruins themselves are not precise. The site of the current ruins was (far as we know) originally a hunting lodge owned by a king. He donated it to the Order of San Anton Abad, a group of French monks who evolved into healers. They specialized in "St. Anthony's fire," aka "ergotism," whose symptoms include hallucinations, a loss of circulation, and blackened limbs. The order had monastery/hospitals throughout Spain and Europe, this particular one was the headquarters in Spain. It sat along the Camino trail, and also offered hospitality to pilgrims, too. The buildings went through several phases of construction, demolition, and varied uses as the order grew in power and then went into decline. It was finally shut down entirely when the Spanish government disentailed monasteries in the early 19th century. It was sold into private hands, its goods scattered around other local churches. For many years it was a barnyard.
The ruins you see today are what remains of the 14th and 15th century chapel. The albergue is built into what was the secular entryway; the monks and their staff and families lived in the monastery buildings where the farmhouse and barns stand now.
If you want the gory details send me an IM and I will get a booklet to you.

If nobody knows to the nearest year when the convent building was begun or when it was finished, then 14th century or 15th century will have to do. I am curious because the signage has changed. The date given for most constructions that take a long time is the date they were finished. If this is the case with the convent of San Antón, then the ruins presumably date from the 15th century if construction began in the 14th century and finished in the 15th. Does the booklet have more about the dates of construction than "Monasterio San Anton de Castrojeriz was founded 900 years ago"?

 

[dougfitz]

@Bert45, in a moment of idle curiosity I searched Open Street Maps for 'San Juan Bautista Spain'. I couldn't filter churches, but counted those returns labelled as a place of worship. church building or the like. I didn't check for duplicates. 49.

You can try this search as a starter: https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=San Juan Bautista spain#map=6/39.942/-3.267

 

[TrvlDad1]

I realize this is a thread about that specific site, but for a perspective on the challenges and process of cathedral building written in lay terms, try Ken Follett's historical novel, Pillars of the Earth.

 

[lvf]

Just a wonderful side note. When we were on our Camino in October and walking through the beautiful ruins, a man stood in the center and burst into singing Spanish opera. It was such a spontaneous and moving Camino moment. Later he told me that the caretaker had given him a free coffee and he had no money to give, so he gave him ( and all of us) a song!

 

[Bert45]

@Bert45, in a moment of idle curiosity I searched Open Street Maps for 'San Juan Bautista Spain'. I couldn't filter churches, but counted those returns labelled as a place of worship. church building or the like. I didn't check for duplicates. 49.

You can try this search as a starter: https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=San Juan Bautista spain#map=6/39.942/-3.267

I was being a bit sarcastic in asking how many churches were dedicated to San Juan Bautista. If you didn't know that there was a church dedicated to him in Castrojeriz, you would read that sign and wonder why they didn't name the town where the church was.

 

[dougfitz]

I was being a bit sarcastic in asking how many churches were dedicated to San Juan Bautista. If you didn't know that there was a church dedicated to him in Castrojeriz, you would read that sign and wonder why they didn't name the town where the church was.

@Bert45, I realised you were employing a rhetorical device and not seriously seeking an answer, but I was curious nonetheless.

 

[PilgrimJames]

The information board at the Ruins of San Antón states that the convent was founded in 1146 under the patronage of King Alfonso VII. The same sign says that the ruins are 14th century, while a large sign nearby used to say that they are 15th century [https://medium.com/a-walking-miracle/day-13-2-b82e5492a60 posted Dec 2020] A new large sign says they are 14th century (I was there in October this year). It seems odd to me that they can date the foundation to a precise year (1146), but provide no date for the building of the convent of which we now see the ruins – sometime in the 14th century – oops, sorry 15th century. Do you know when the convent was built, more or less?
The sign goes on to say that "The baroque altarpiece is preserved in the church of San Juan Bautista." Do you know how many churches in Spain are dedicated to San Juan Bautista? A lot, I bet. OK , it's probably the church of San Juan Bautista in Castrojeriz, but how much would it have cost to add the name of the town?

This is a period of over 870 years, almost a millennium. I think it should be understood that there may have been many versions of buildings on the San Anton site over that period. For a simple instance, the Cathedral in Santiago de Compostela in not the original building constructed on the site in Santiago. It was not unusual for such important building to be destroyed, burned or pillaged over the centauries I don't imagine that anyone is trying to be frivolous here and these public information signs are really just an indicator of the history of change. We can "dig" deeper elsewhere if we wish to pursue the detailed history, if indeed it is available.

 

[Threshold]

This is a period of over 870 years, almost a millennium. I think it should be understood that there may have been many versions of buildings on the San Anton site over that period. For a simple instance, the Cathedral in Santiago de Compostela in not the original building constructed on the site in Santiago. It was not unusual for such important building to be destroyed, burned or pillaged over the centauries I don't imagine that anyone is trying to be frivolous here and these public information signs are really just an indicator of the history of change. We can "dig" deeper elsewhere if we wish to pursue the detailed history, if indeed it is available.

Does anyone know how it became a ruin?

 

[Rebekah Scott]

It became a ruin because nobody did any maintenance there for about 175 years, and the neighbors carted away the stones and timbers to build other things.

Bert45: I am sorry I can't be more precise on the foundation dates. I have all my historical source info in a drawer someplace, but somehow I am not motivated to go digging for it. It will have to remain another Camino Mystery.

 

[Bert45]

It became a ruin because nobody did any maintenance there for about 175 years, and the neighbors carted away the stones and timbers to build other things.

Bert45: I am sorry I can't be more precise on the foundation dates. I have all my historical source info in a drawer someplace, but somehow I am not motivated to go digging for it. It will have to remain another Camino Mystery.

That's OK, Rebekah.

 

[Threshold]

Thanks Rebekah. Sounds logical. A case of architectural salvage.

 

[WGroleau]

The information board at the Ruins of San Antón states that the convent was founded in 1146 under the patronage of King Alfonso VII. The same sign says that the ruins are 14th century, while a large sign nearby used to say that they are 15th century [https://medium.com/a-walking-miracle/day-13-2-b82e5492a60 posted Dec 2020] A new large sign says they are 14th century (I was there in October this year). It seems odd to me that they can date the foundation to a precise year (1146), but provide no date for the building of the convent of which we now see the ruins – sometime in the 14th century – oops, sorry 15th century.

Perhaps I misunderstood, but … There is likely to be records of the building and patronage of a church. But if it is abandoned and begins to fall apart, perhaps no one writes down anywhere, "the old church collapsed today." Plus the deterioration will take place over a long period of time.

 

[dqduncan]

My husband bought me a little booklet by @Rebekah Scott on San Anton a few years ago. Great little booklet. Don't know if she has any left? You can scroll down and see it here:

peaceable projects

www.peaceableprojects.org

She does. Well, she did in the spring. It's a great booklet. You can track her down on the forum. I think the money she raises from booklet sales go to one of her many charitable endeavours.

 

[Anniesantiago]

The dates, as you can see, are not precise. The ruins themselves are not precise. The site of the current ruins was (far as we know) originally a hunting lodge owned by a king. He donated it to the Order of San Anton Abad, a group of French monks who evolved into healers. They specialized in "St. Anthony's fire," aka "ergotism," whose symptoms include hallucinations, a loss of circulation, and blackened limbs. The order had monastery/hospitals throughout Spain and Europe, this particular one was the headquarters in Spain. It sat along the Camino trail, and also offered hospitality to pilgrims, too. The buildings went through several phases of construction, demolition, and varied uses as the order grew in power and then went into decline. It was finally shut down entirely when the Spanish government disentailed monasteries in the early 19th century. It was sold into private hands, its goods scattered around other local churches. For many years it was a barnyard.
The ruins you see today are what remains of the 14th and 15th century chapel. The albergue is built into what was the secular entryway; the monks and their staff and families lived in the monastery buildings where the farmhouse and barns stand now.
If you want the gory details send me an IM and I will get a booklet to you.

A pilgrim wrote to me he wouldn't consider staying there. Is this true? :

"The horrors for me was the rudimentary amputation of victims hands suffering from St Anton Fire.
My understanding is that some infected pilgrims were invited, by priests/monks to insert their diseased hands into niches in the walls of the Convento whereupon others on the other side would grab the hands and cut them off.
Now I know this was the Middle Ages and they were not known for their bedside manner, but….I could not consider staying there."

 

[trecile]

A pilgrim wrote to me he wouldn't consider staying there. Is this true? :

"The horrors for me was the rudimentary amputation of victims hands suffering from St Anton Fire.
My understanding is that some infected pilgrims were invited, by priests/monks to insert their diseased hands into niches in the walls of the Convento whereupon others on the other side would grab the hands and cut them off.
Now I know this was the Middle Ages and they were not known for their bedside manner, but….I could not consider staying there."

You should ask over on this thread about Camino myths:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/camino-stories-or-myths.83127/

 

[David Tallan]

A pilgrim wrote to me he wouldn't consider staying there. Is this true? :

"The horrors for me was the rudimentary amputation of victims hands suffering from St Anton Fire.
My understanding is that some infected pilgrims were invited, by priests/monks to insert their diseased hands into niches in the walls of the Convento whereupon others on the other side would grab the hands and cut them off.
Now I know this was the Middle Ages and they were not known for their bedside manner, but….I could not consider staying there."

You would think if that had really been the case word would have gotten round pretty quickly and it would no longer have been so easy to convince pilgrims to stick their hands in the niches.

 

[Bert45]

Here's the booklet description from her website:
"Monasterio San Anton de Castrojeriz was founded 900 years ago as a fortress for warrior monks reconquering Spain and protecting pilgrims on the Camino de Santiago trail. Its story includes a half-mad saint, a gruesome disease, a jeweled arm with healing powers, and fund-raising pigs."

I don't like information like that "900 years ago". It's fairly obviously a number correct to the nearest 100 years. If it was founded exactly 900 years ago, that will change with every year that passes since it was written. If it was founded in 1146, that will be 900 years ago in 23 years (written in 2023). If the exact date is not known, say so. But limits can be given – after 1120, but before 1180, for instance.

 

[J Willhaus]

I don't like information like that "900 years ago". It's fairly obviously a number correct to the nearest 100 years. If it was founded exactly 900 years ago, that will change with every year that passes since it was written. If it was founded in 1146, that will be 900 years ago in 23 years (written in 2023). If the exact date is not known, say so. But limits can be given – after 1120, but before 1180, for instance.

OK, sorry, I was quoting from the book description. Guess you can talk to @Rebekah Scott as they may be her words...

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I don't like information like that "900 years ago". It's fairly obviously a number correct to the nearest 100 years. If it was founded exactly 900 years ago, that will change with every year that passes since it was written. If it was founded in 1146, that will be 900 years ago in 23 years (written in 2023). If the exact date is not known, say so. But limits can be given – after 1120, but before 1180, for instance.

This reminds me of a story I read where the author recounted a visit to a museum where a docent told of a fossil that was 9,000,014 years old (or a similar ancient number). When asked how the age could be so accurate the docent replied that he was told it was nine million years old when he started working there fourteen years previously.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I am a historian, I co-wrote the "San Anton: a Little History" with Robert Mullen, another camino historian. It is the only document of its kind in English.

Bert45: You don't have to like terms like "900 years ago." Medieval history is very imprecise, and imprecise is what we've got. Besides, the "Little History" was written for casual readers, not forensic pecksniffs.

Friend of Anniesantiago: No, people did NOT have their hands randomly amputated through holes in the wall. Someone's been watching too many slasher movies. The Antonines DID specialize in amputating limbs, however, but only limbs that were beyond saving. They offered the best medical care available for their times, and the fact that amputees survived the procedure was testimony to their curative powers.

The niches in the wall are traditionally spots where the monks left food outside after the gates closed, so passing pilgrims would have something to eat. Nowadays pilgrims leave notes to one another, prayer requests, little mementos... and the usual bottles, cans, and candy wrappers.

 

[Pafayac]

I am a historian, I co-wrote the "San Anton: a Little History" with Robert Mullen, another camino historian. It is the only document of its kind in English.

Hi Rebekah, if you are a specialist of San Anton, could you tell us about the "Tau", the San Anton cross ?
Last spring, with a friend of mine, we discover the ruins of the monastery before Castrojeriz, and there she gives me a wooden tau. I like very much this cross but nowadays it seems to be related more with San Francisco than to San Antonio.
I know that San Francisco used it in its signature, but I would like to know the circumstances under which San Antonio adopted it.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Hi Rebekah, if you are a specialist of San Anton, could you tell us about the "Tau", the San Anton cross ?
Last spring, with a friend of mine, we discover the ruins of the monastery before Castrojeriz, and there she gives me a wooden tau. I like very much this cross but nowadays it seems to be related more with San Francisco than to San Antonio.
I know that San Francisco used it in its signature, but I would like to know the circumstances under which San Antonio adopted it.

We go into that in the booklet. The Tau cross came over from Egypt with St. Anthony Abbot -- he lived in the Egyptian desert. Crusaders from France brought his (supposed) remains back with them, and the order grew up around his relics. At San Anton in Castrojeriz, the Antonine superior had a staff with a Tau cross atop, he used that as part of the blessings and cures at the hospital. The monks had a big Tau cross on their robes. And you can see all the Taus worked into the stone of that fabulous rose window! St. Anthony predates Saint Francis by several centuries, so Antonines got there first, Tau-wise. Some say St. Francis walked the Camino himself, stayed at San Anton, and was so impressed he adopted the Tau as a symbol for his new order -- he went on to found friaries all along the Way.

 

[me123]

I would say this commandery at Castrojeiz was completed in the late 1300s, the mother house was in Paris. San Anton Castrojeriz commandery was probablty built on a former Templar commandery site.
There was Hainaut knightly aristocratic order of St Anthony started between 1352 and 1382 maybe by Duke Albert of Bavaria, their house was at ( Chapelle Saint -Antoine en-Barbefosse Mons Belgium) they were allowed to eventually join the mother house in Paris after agreeing to share their income with them.

Their insignia was a Tau cross pendant with a bell and a collar in a form of a hermits girdle.
The Rose window at San Anton Castrojeriz looks like the Tau crosses are surmounted by hermits girdles?

​

Commanderies générales de l'ordre des hospitaliers de Saint Antoine

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I would say this commandery at Castrojeiz was completed in the late 1300s, the mother house was in Paris. San Anton Castrojeriz commandery was probablty built on a former Templar commandery site.
There was Hainaut knightly aristocratic order of St Anthony started between 1352 and 1382 maybe by Duke Albert of Bavaria, their house was at ( Chapelle Saint -Antoine en-Barbefosse Mons Belgium) they were allowed to eventually join the mother house in Paris after agreeing to share their income with them.

Their insignia was a Tau cross pendant with a bell and a collar in a form of a hermits girdle.
The Rose window at San Anton Castrojeriz looks like the Tau crosses are surmounted by hermits girdles?

​

Commanderies générales de l'ordre des hospitaliers de Saint Antoine

More Templars? Puh-leeze. The original San Anton was built on the site of a royal hunting lodge. There are no Templars anywhere in the historic record, despite the best efforts of many to squeeze them in there.

 

[J Willhaus]

Loved the little historical booklet my husband bought me as a birthday gift several years ago by R. Scott on San Anton.

 

[Kathar1na]

I would say this commandery at Castrojeiz was completed in the late 1300s, the mother house was in Paris. San Anton Castrojeriz commandery was probablty built on a former Templar commandery site. There was Hainaut knightly aristocratic order of St Anthony started between 1352 and 1382 maybe by Duke Albert of Bavaria, their house was at ( Chapelle Saint -Antoine en-Barbefosse Mons Belgium) they were allowed to eventually join the mother house in Paris after agreeing to share their income with them.

Welcome back, @me123. I see from your previous messages that you have an interest in the tau cross.

I found your recent comment a bit confusing. I had never heard about any of this and I could not make much sense of it. So I googled around a bit. You are equating or confusing two separate organisations that have nothing to do with each other, apart from a similarity of their names.

I don't know the name used in English and there is not much online information about the first one in English. In German, the names of this two very separate organisations are:

• Antonius Ritterorden - This is a fairly obscure military order, founded by an Albert and possibly in 1382. This Albert must be Albert I, Duke of Bavaria (1336-1404) who had the function of regent in the Low Countries, hence the connection to a chapel in Belgium in your quote. As you know, much of Europe was very differently organised and governed in the Middle Ages than it is today. This order has absolutely nothing to do with the ruins of Saint Anton near Castrojeriz in Spain.
  
  
• Antoniter-Orden, in English known as Order of Saint Anthony, in Spanish Orden de San Antonio, in French Ordre hospitalier de Saint-Antoine. This order was founded around 1095 and it was composed of laymen. It then became a monastic order. This is the organisation that is widely known for caring for people who suffered from a disease then known as Saint Anthony's Fire and who cared for the sick and for other pilgrims on the site of the now ruins of San Anton near Castrojeriz in Spain.

 

[Kathar1na]

there is not much online information about the first one in English

I found a Wikipedia article in French about this obscure order. As already mentioned, this order has nothing whatsoever to do with the Antonines and San Antón near Castrojeriz in Spain: Ordre de Saint-Antoine-en-Barbefosse. The first line says: Ne doit pas être confondu avec Ordre hospitalier de Saint-Antoine.

PS: I see now that Albert does not even get a mention in this Wikipedia article. This blog has more details: L’ordre chevaleresque de Saint Antoine en Barbefosse. It also states that there is no trace of this order after the 16th century.