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Mysticl said:I do recognize the spiritual and religious significance others feel and I will do my best to be respectful even though I do not share that belief. They are in effect allowing me to share in something pretty special and I approach this Camino as if I were a guest in their home. I rejoice in the world around me and I hope to enjoy the fellowship of my fellow walkers. This walk for me is highly personal, a journey of self discovery
Flatfoot said:I've heard that changes take place in a person when they walk the Camino.
Has anybody on the board ever hiked the Camino as a physical challenge or even just a fun way to spend the summer and ended the Camino totally reconverted to God?
I was one of those who reconnected with my God on the Camino so that it was a wonderful spiritual pilgrimage.
robertt said:There are a few minor reasons for walking the Camino, and one compelling reason.
I know the minor reasons, I don’t know the compelling reason.
You've made a similar comment elsewhere, and I was tempted then to point out the fundamental differences between the two notions which you seem to discount.David said:I don't really understand the difference people mean when they say that they are spiritual but not religious.
I do recognize the spiritual and religious significance others feel however, especially on this most holy of pilgrimages and I will do my best to be respectful even though I do not share that belief. They are in effect allowing me to share in something pretty special and I approach this Camino as if I were a guest in their home.
On the flip side, I have rarely seen respect toward non-believers from the believers! As an example (not one from the camino) in the U.S. right now, there is a large group of believers that insist that everyone see things their way. There are some vocal atheists out there, but by-and-large atheists seem to keep their mouths shut. It is a rare politician that touts his atheism, but many Christian politicians make it the focus of their campaign. "Elect me because of my faith." If there is occasional push back from atheists, I find that quite understandable. I haven't seen much disrespect on the Camino from either side.rarely have I ever seen such respect toward believers from an atheist
Flatfoot said:I do recognize the spiritual and religious significance others feel however, especially on this most holy of pilgrimages and I will do my best to be respectful even though I do not share that belief. They are in effect allowing me to share in something pretty special and I approach this Camino as if I were a guest in their home.
Mystici,
Thank you for that very gracious sentiment. While I am firmly in the other camp, I have to say that rarely have I ever saw such respect toward believers from an atheist. As a guest on this forum (as I have not yet walked the Camino and probably will not do so for a number of years), I started this thread hoping that many would have had the experience of coming closer to God and instead, found that modern pilgrims (...well some at least) feel that faith is only for fools and little children.
You have struck me with your kind attitude. Thank you.
I'm not sure what you think I should be thinking. The examples you used demonstrate the clear distinction that I made between spirituality and religion. The assertion that someone found 986 Anglicans coming out of church indicates that they shared a belief in a Christian theology and were willing to subject themselves to the Anglican canon. Their differing views on the reasons for attending church are broadly irrelevant.David said:Then there are the beliefs of the Celtic peoples before Christianity and before the cult of the individual and so on, don't you think?
I had always thought that societies held world views, not individuals.David said:I do post my world view
Really. So you would find acceptable the world views that gave us the Holocaust, apathied in South Africa or the killing fields in Cambodia? I must admit I find them difficult to consider valid, but maybe you have a different test of their acceptability.David said:I hold that all worldviews are valid
Absolutely nothing. It does indicate that at least you have a vivid imagination. Your interpretation of it as a revelation is a personal choice, not an objective fact.David said:"well, if it is as I see it then what does it say about a God, here and now, always present?"
No. In terms of the plain English meaning of the words, you described a spiritual, not a religious, experience.David said:For others it would have meant something different - but all, I think, would have felt, experienced, the same - don't you think?
The bane of lawyers and politicians. Redefine the dictionary, and the world is your oyster. "More is less." "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others." "Enhanced interrogation." The possibilities are limitless. :mrgreen:In terms of the plain English meaning of the words
CaminoGen wrote:
Doug, thank you for your eloquence in your explanation of the difference between sprituality and religion.
"David wrote:
"well, if it is as I see it then what does it say about a God, here and now, always present?"
Absolutely nothing. It does indicate that at least you have a vivid imagination. Your interpretation of it as a revelation is a personal choice, not an objective fact."
Logic and objectivity rarely work when it comes to discussing faith and religion...
In losing ten pounds? In acts of friendship? In being outdoors? In challenging oneself? In observing? There are quite a few point of logic. Since only 43.07% of the pilgrims last year had a religious motivation for the pilgrimage, there is more logic than illogic!Where is the logic for an atheist...
Please note that I did not say that atheists were logical and objective; I stated that logic and objectivity are rarely used in discussions regarding religion, sentiments usually taking over.Flatfoot said:CaminoGen wrote:
Doug, thank you for your eloquence in your explanation of the difference between sprituality and religion.
"David wrote:
"well, if it is as I see it then what does it say about a God, here and now, always present?"
Absolutely nothing. It does indicate that at least you have a vivid imagination. Your interpretation of it as a revelation is a personal choice, not an objective fact."
Logic and objectivity rarely work when it comes to discussing faith and religion...
Thank you Gen... now that's the atheism that I'm talking about. The atheists are logical and objective, by default making the believers illogical and unobjective. Prefering to believe instead that this beautiful life and this beautiful world came about as mere happenstance defying your own law of entropy (the second law of thermodynamics), which states that all matter moves toward a state of greater disorganization.
Gen, I'm sure that you keep that "vivid imagination" sentiment to yourself when you're sharing in the generosity of the monks and religious along the camino.
Tell me... Where is the logic for an atheist, in following in the footsteps of millions before you on the route of a pilgrimage that leads to the bones of a dead Christian saint???
I, too, prefer disucssions without logic. :wink:I stated that logic and objectivity are rarely used in discussions regarding religion
Priscillian - this is a view supported by the common English meaning of the words, as I and others have pointed out.Priscillian said:Purely a personal observation but to me, put simply, one can be "spiritual" and have no need for a god or God at all.
Someone who doesn't believe in a supreme being can still desire to understand the source and inspiration for the higher moral qualities we aspire to individually, or as members of society in general. It would seem to me that pilgrimage is a perfectly acceptable way of improving that understanding.Flatfoot said:Where is the logic for an atheist
JillHives said:Mysticl said:I do recognize the spiritual and religious significance others feel and I will do my best to be respectful even though I do not share that belief. They are in effect allowing me to share in something pretty special and I approach this Camino as if I were a guest in their home. I rejoice in the world around me and I hope to enjoy the fellowship of my fellow walkers. This walk for me is highly personal, a journey of self discovery
That's exactly how I feel too.
Agreed!
Rebekah Scott said:Aquinas, the Buddha, Richard Dawkins, Rumi, Brother David, etc...
If they walk a while, and shed their expectations and labels and judgements along the way, they will at the end find themselves changed, often profoundly.
"Religion" and "spirituality" and "atheist" and "God" are labels we stick onto things that are ultimately beyond definition. They are just part of the noise and mind-babble that we have to deal with as we walk.
As we walk, as we walk, the racket often fades. And we can find "God" in the birdsong, or a kind gesture, or the botafumeiro, or in Saint James the Great.
It is a simple thing, made needlessly difficult and complicated by our endless human desire to define, label, seperate, and rank things. I do not think the Camino de Santiago is a magical place that brings clarity and conversion. I think it is just a wonderful combination of silence and mutual support that lets individuals get past their personal noise, so they can rediscover the primal beauty that is already within them. (that, in turn, opens their eyes and ears and senses to the wonders of the daily world around them!)
lizlane said:At one time, the world was flat and Finisterre was the end of it! Believing this to be true did not make it so!
lizlane said:No unicorns do exist! They are in the Bible! (KJV) :mrgreen:
I've heard that changes take place in a person when they walk the Camino.
Has anybody on the board ever hiked the Camino as a physical challenge or even just a fun way to spend the summer and ended the Camino totally reconverted to God?
Watch it pal! I'M an old man with; a beard And I use EASY JET. Saves flapping the armsLike Sil, walking the Camino was a spriritual journey and NOT a religious one. I strongly believe that nobody can walk 800 km without it being somewhat spiritual, however, I doubt walking will ever get me believing in an old man with a beard in the sky.
I am sure you will. Me too. All the best,In these strange times of Covid, with strict lockdown and all our churches closed, I have experienced this Easter day the Resurrection of LOVE in my garden, and yet, still I yearn and yearn to walk to the Camino and experience that special togetherness once again.