Selfies with Saint James

[John Finn]

In Santiago Cathedral yesterday I noticed a most regrettable phenomenon - tourists taking selfies with the statue of St James. As readers may know, it is customary to ascend the gilded statue of the saint on the baroque altar from behind and give it a hug. Thence one descends to the crypt where the ornate casket containing (allegedly) his remains is located. I was shocked to see several people when they reached the point where it is traditional to give the hug, whip out their phones and take selfies with the Great Man. How utterly crass!

 

[trecile]

In Santiago Cathedral yesterday I noticed a most regrettable phenomenon - tourists taking selfies with the statue of St James. As readers may know, it is customary to ascend the gilded statue of the saint on the baroque altar from behind and give it a hug. Thence one descends to the crypt where the ornate casket containing (allegedly) his remains is located. I was shocked to see several people when they reached the point where it is traditional to give the hug, whip out their phones and take selfies with the Great Man. How utterly crass!

Are you saying that no one in the past ever had their picture taken with the statue?

 

[John Finn]

Are you saying that no one in the past ever had their picture taken with the statue?

Well of course they had but to my mind there is something decidedly vulgar in taking a selfie with it.

 

[trecile]

Well of course they had but to my mind there is something decidedly vulgar in taking a selfie with it.

Honestly, I don't see the difference between asking a stranger to take a picture or doing a "self portrait". Perhaps photographs were considered vulgar when the technology was new, because the only right way to have a portrait done was to have it painted.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Crass,vulgar or not, isn't there a plaque there saying taking pics is prohibited?

What is it with these tourigrinos. Yesterday it was women on FB filling up their water bottles with wine to go in Irache, wven if a signs says that if they want wine to go it must be purchased.

 

[november_moon]

As long as photography isn't prohibited and they didn't hit anyone with their selfie-stick, I'm ok with it.

 

[John Finn]

Honestly, I don't see the difference between asking a stranger to take a picture or doing a "self portrait".

It depends on the location. The cathedral is a sacred place and regardless of one's beliefs one should have the good manners to observe the restriction on photography that applies. People such as Pope John Paul II and the King and Queen of Spain have been photographed behind the statue by professional photographers as part of the coverage of their visits to the cathedral. It would be very difficult for ordinary people to be thus photographed - it would require the photographer to be aware of just when the subject is at the statue which is not easy given that there is a constant stream of people and only their heads are visible. The photographer would also require a telephoto lens and have access to the front of the altar which is out of bounds. Not impossible perhaps, but very difficult to achieve, and thus likely to have been effected only on rare occasions.

 

[John Finn]

As long as photography isn't prohibited and they didn't hit anyone with their selfie-stick, I'm ok with it.

It is prohibited.

 

[trecile]

It is prohibited.

Well, you didn't say that in your first post. If it's prohibited it's not okay!

 

[C clearly]

one should have the good manners to observe the restriction on photography that applies.

I completely agree with observing the restriction. Whether it is a selfie or not is irrelevant.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

As long as photography isn't prohibited and they didn't hit anyone with their selfie-stick, I'm ok with it.

But it is. It's written right there on a plaque. Sorry, I don't have a picture of the plaque .

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Well, you didn't say that in your first post. If it's prohibited it's not okay!

I think that all of us who have been there know it is prohibited.

 

[trecile]

I think that all of us who have been there know it is prohibited.

I haven't been there.

 

[MichaelC]

I agree that taking selfies in a Church is pretty crass ... but hugging the statue is an accepted thing??? I think that would throw me for a loop too.

 

[C clearly]

but hugging the statue is an accepted thing??? I think that would throw me for a loop too.

That really illustrates how arbritrary some of these rules and acceptable customs are!

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Hugging the statue, although I have never seen anyone hugging it, but rather touching it, as people touched, for hundreds of years, the Portico de la gloria.

One is about the object of worship.

The other is about our ego.

Random pics in a chirch, outside of service are about an interst in architecture, history, theology.

 

[John Finn]

I agree that taking selfies in a Church is pretty crass ... but hugging the statue is an accepted thing??? I think that would throw me for a loop too.

Hugging the statue above the altar- putting an arm around the shoulder of the saint as one stands behind it (it makes more sense when one sees it in reality) - is a hallowed tradition going back hundreds of years, as much a part of the cathedral experience as placing one's hand on the pillar of St James when entering through the Portico de la Gloria (currently inaccessible, incidentally, due to restoration works).

I would urge prospective pilgrims to read up a little on the history of the cathedral and its traditions before going there as it would significantly enhance one's overall experience and appreciation of the place.

 

[caminowilts]

About 10 years ago (long enough ago that I can't remember specifically when) I was in Sri Lanka at major Buddhist temple. My daughter was taking photos of her self with statues of buddhas. A monk proceeded to tell her this was inappropriate (which I completely understand). But then a big group of monks came and proceeded to do selfies (with big smiles). I have to say I found the whole thing very funny.

I can't say I would feel right doing a selfie with St James. Though people come to Santiago from all over the world with different backgrounds, religions and, of course, values and motives for being there. Along as they are polite and respect others, I see no issue. I assume if it was a real problem the catherdral would have done something about it.

 

[notion900]

Taking photos and videos during Mass is worse, and that happens a lot.

 

[caminowilts]

That I completely agree with, it's a lack of respect to others who are there to worship at, appreciate etc the Mass.

 

[newfydog]

I have a very nice photo of an old nun praying at the botefumero ceremony. I talked to her before, about the long trip from LePuy, about how many of the ceremonies she had seen etc. I asked about photos and she said if no flash is used and no one jumps around during the service they are pleased that others can see the ceremony. I held the camera on my lap and shot some blind pictures.

I then posted it here and was flamed for obvious disrespect.


A selfie with her might have been a bit much!

 

[caminowilts]

For me its simple, as along as you don't disturb others (particularly those their to worship) then I am relaxed about it . The problem with cameras is when flashes are going off all over the place and people are towards the front obstructing views of others when recording video. Though it does happen it has not spoiled my experience each time I've been in the cathedral.

Generally speaking, I don't own the Camino or have any right to judge or tell people what they should and shouldn't do. I might chuckle at other people, when they do something which is a bit out of step with the norm.

 

[natefaith]

In Santiago Cathedral yesterday I noticed a most regrettable phenomenon - tourists taking selfies with the statue of St James. As readers may know, it is customary to ascend the gilded statue of the saint on the baroque altar from behind and give it a hug. Thence one descends to the crypt where the ornate casket containing (allegedly) his remains is located. I was shocked to see several people when they reached the point where it is traditional to give the hug, whip out their phones and take selfies with the Great Man. How utterly crass!

This is so interesting to me. I haven't been up the stairs in a year or two, but I remember there always being a security guard present, sitting on a chair. What was his take on it all?

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

In contrast.

From the Washington Post website
May 11, 2017 at 5:01 AM

Russian found guilty of inciting religious hatred — for playing ‘Pokémon Go’ in church

MOSCOW — A judge in Russia’s fourth-largest city has convicted a blogger who played “Pokémon Go” in a renowned Orthodox cathedral of inciting religious hatred and insulting the feelings of believers, the state RIA-Novosti news agency reported Thursday.

Ruslan Sokolovsky, 22, was given a suspended sentence of 3½ years for playing the mobile phone game during a service in the Church of All Saints in the Ural mountain city of Yekaterinburg last August.

[ More at the article linked here. ]

 

[StFina]

I was in Santiago in September. There was a guard at the top of the stairs forcing everyone to put their cell phones away. Maybe something changed in the past few months, or perhaps an oversight by the guard on duty??

 

[movinmaggie]

Worse are the selfie sticks, or should we say 'Narcissticks'

 

[Ian Afloat]

Definitely prohibited...unless you're the Pope or King or Queen of Spain apparently

 

[Northern Laurie]

Side note, I realized what bothers me about selfie sticks is how it allows us to be more isolated from each other. We don't need to ask someone else (a local perhaps) to take our picture and lose the chance to talk to a stranger for a moment.

 

[november_moon]

I think that all of us who have been there know it is prohibited.

I've been there. I didn't know that photography was prohibited.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

Definitely prohibited...unless you're the Pope or King or Queen of Spain apparently

They don't make selfies!!

Wish you well,Peter.

 

[movinmaggie]

They don't make selfies!!

Wish you well,Peter.

I was referring to selfie sticks in general; not necessarily in Santiago. I can't imagine they would be allowed there.

 

[trecile]

Side note, I realized what bothers me about selfie sticks is how it allows us to be more isolated from each other. We don't need to ask someone else (a local perhaps) to take our picture and lose the chance to talk to a stranger for a moment.

But, I'm sure that many people are hesitant to hand over an expensive phone or camera to a complete stranger.

 

[movinmaggie]

But, I'm sure that many people are hesitant to hand over an expensive phone or camera to a complete stranger.

I wouldn't hesitate in the least....I think NorthernLaurie's point about friendly interaction having gone by the wayside, was well taken; just as I heard some Hospitaleras and owners mention that they miss the days when pilgrims socialized, rather than being attached to their phones, tablets, et al. I'm certainly no one to judge; I'm on my computer now - and a desktop one at that

 

[SabsP]

But, I'm sure that many people are hesitant to hand over an expensive phone or camera to a complete stranger.

Guess I'm not one of those many people then.

Like Northern Laurie I would prefer to ask a passer-by to make a pic of me although never at the statue of St James or inside a church because of the Holy atmosphere. I even saw people making pictures of a pilgrim in the confession booth! Horrid and classless and clueless all at the same time!!!

I only take pictures of the inside of a church when there is no Mass. Although I did once made a video of the Botufameiro in action for a couple of minutes...still have very double feelings about this myself.

 

[C clearly]

Side note, I realized what bothers me about selfie sticks is how it allows us to be more isolated from each other. We don't need to ask someone else (a local perhaps) to take our picture and lose the chance to talk to a stranger for a moment.

I just don't get this. There are a million ways to interact with strangers and there is no need to do them all. Why not leave your guide book at home so you have to ask people more often? Or leave your dictionary so you must engage in charades!

I think that a selfie is a great form of expression. (I am 68 years old and prefer to crop myself to a single eye and only a piece of my nose, but that is part of the fun.)

Perhaps the objection to selfies is simply a case of not liking (a) the initial weird look of the new type of photography, (b) the seeming self-absorption of the young people who started the trend (which they would be with or without selfie sticks), and (c) the selfie stick is an annoying accessory.

If you want to go into detailed analysis of narcissism and selfies, feel free, but I'm not buying. I am not at all a vain or narcissistic person. Yes phone/internet technologies have changed many things in our lives but selfies in themselves don't deserve such disdain.

This is one of my favourite photos from my last camino. What on earth is bad about it?

 

[SabsP]

I wouldn't hesitate in the least....I think NorthernLaurie's point about friendly interaction having gone by the wayside, was well taken; just as I heard some Hospitaleras and owners mention that they miss the days when pilgrims socialized, rather than being attached to their phones, tablets, et al. I'm certainly no one to judge; I'm on my computer now - and a desktop one at that

Exactly! Yesterday I heard this story : a guy sitting on the toilet , noticing that someone took the last toiletpaper. He texted to his housemate , sitting in the livingroom three metres away from first mentioned toilet , asking to bring a new roll... Now where are the days that you just screamed really loudly through the house demanding for a new bogroll...But I digress....

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

This is one of my favourite photos from my last camino. What on earth is bad about it?

Too much nose.

 

[caminowilts]

Laugh out loud

 

[C clearly]

Too much nose.

Good point. There is an important difference between "turning up one's nose at selfies" and "turning up one's nose in selfies!"

 

[Colette Z]

In Santiago Cathedral yesterday I noticed a most regrettable phenomenon - tourists taking selfies with the statue of St James. As readers may know, it is customary to ascend the gilded statue of the saint on the baroque altar from behind and give it a hug. Thence one descends to the crypt where the ornate casket containing (allegedly) his remains is located. I was shocked to see several people when they reached the point where it is traditional to give the hug, whip out their phones and take selfies with the Great Man. How utterly crass!

I watched my Italian walking partner ascend to St James and weep for quite some time (despite the long line of irritated bus-igrinos wearing huge shells around their necks ) on his shoulder out of pure emotion having walked the entire CF. I followed her, also teary and I felt the love and joy of Santiago enter my full being. These are 2 Camino momentos I will never ever forget and a photo was not needed. I was disappointed a bit in Santiago Cathedral with all the tourist pilgrims as I considered the mass a sacred and spiritual moment for me. I spent the entire mass kneeling because the tourists sharing my church bench wouldn't make space for me to put more than half my behind on the bench, unfortunate but it was only the final day of 33 amazing days.

 

[Colette Z]

It depends on the location. The cathedral is a sacred place and regardless of one's beliefs one should have the good manners to observe the restriction on photography that applies. People such as Pope John Paul II and the King and Queen of Spain have been photographed behind the statue by professional photographers as part of the coverage of their visits to the cathedral. It would be very difficult for ordinary people to be thus photographed - it would require the photographer to be aware of just when the subject is at the statue which is not easy given that there is a constant stream of people and only their heads are visible. The photographer would also require a telephoto lens and have access to the front of the altar which is out of bounds. Not impossible perhaps, but very difficult to achieve, and thus likely to have been effected only on rare occasions.

I attended mass twice, upon arriving in SDC after completing the full CF then after completing walking to,Fisterra and Muxia. The second mass I attended was fuller with masses of tourists who didn't stop and listen respectively but kept walking around looking, taking pics. What really upset me was a young American girl who had short shorts on but SO short that her bum was hanging out. OMG how stupid ignorant and disrespectful.

 

[Icacos]

This is one of my favourite photos from my last camino. What on earth is bad about it?

Too much nose.

Thank you @Rick of Rick and Peg! I must say that when @C clearly asked that question, I searched the picture for something (how could one resist that challenge?) and I drew a blank. You came through!

 

[Jersey]

I see people taking photos and selfies at the 9/11 memorial in NYC
Unbelievable

 

[C clearly]

I see people taking photos and selfies at the 9/11 memorial in NYC
Unbelievable

Are photos simply wrong, or just selfies which tend to be happy poses?

 

[CaminoDebrita]

I'm fine with selfies. I very much like C Clearly's selfie. My photo that you see here is a selfie. I prefer to travel alone, and I prefer not to ask people to photograph me (no selfie, no photos). I always photograph my family, and have almost no photos of myself at family events because I am often left out of photos (married, step kids, no kids of my own, I take the photos).

Selfie sticks are annoying.

I don't think it's wise to breach protocol regarding photos in church, but I've done it. Probably won't do it again, but it may be worth considering that the whole Santiago de Compostela town and Cathedral have become a world-wide destination, and people do like to capture experiences on film. Also, have a look at youtube for all of the swinging botafumeiro videos. I am quite sure that if the church didn't want cameras / phones in church, they could effectively eliminate them.

Short shorts in church is very disrespectful, and I have seen people from all cultures commit similar sins.

In Cambodia, monks smoked, drank, and played cards. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

And that's all I'm going to say about that!

 

[John Finn]

I was in Santiago in September. There was a guard at the top of the stairs forcing everyone to put their cell phones away. Maybe something changed in the past few months, or perhaps an oversight by the guard on duty??

There was definitely no guard on duty when I was there last Tuesday.

 

[Jersey]

Are photos simply wrong, or just selfies which tend to be happy poses?

It's very subjective but
I would say any photo of a person with the memorial as the main background. Everyone I ever witnessed was the happy pose.
I don't think anyone sees a problem with photos of the new tower or surrounding neighborhood.
Also some people are taking photos of loved ones names inscribed on the memorial. Obviously there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[John Finn]

It's very subjective but
I would say any photo of a person with the memorial as the main background. Everyone I ever witnessed was the happy pose.
I don't think anyone sees a problem with photos of the new tower or surrounding neighborhood.
Also some people are taking photos of loved ones names inscribed on the memorial. Obviously there's nothing wrong with that.

Of course not. The issue is with taking photos specifically in the narrow passageway where pilgrims ascend steps behind the main altar directly behind the statue of St James. At a particular point the pilgrim is directly behind the head and shoulders of the statue and facing the main area of the cathedral in front of the altar. Here it is traditional to "hug" the statue by placing an arm on the shoulder (and murmuring a prayer if one is so inclined). It is a tradition going back centuries. What is happening now is that some people are taking selfies at this spot with the head of the statue and themselves in the frame. They are ignoring the notice that photography is not allowed in this area.

 

[Bozzie]

There IS a sign stating photos are not allowed at the statue. Hugging the statue is not part of the sign. Some people respect rules, some don't. It's the lack of respect that irritates me...and when I see graffiti or littering on the Camino.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

And how "into prayer" is anyone "visiting the Saint" when all they are thibking about is the right zoom on their phone for the selfie. Ah, bit I suppose "it's their Camino".

 

[Jeff Crawley]

Oh dear, I've hugged four times and once (before they got worried about acidic erosion) put my hand on the column . . .
Interestingly Alex Pozzi in her recent TV series Spectacular Spain (seriously you must check it out) was filmed peering over the right shoulder of the statue by a camera crew in the body of the church . . .
I agree though that cameras and phones should be switched off during services - it's horrible when a deep and meaningful moment is spoilt by cameras flashing away - unless it's a wedding or baptism of course.

 

[notion900]

They should set up a hidden camera like at the London Eye or graduations. Then you could buy the photo on exiting the Cathedral. Would net them a fortune.

 

[Patrice Reed]

It is a statue! Don't you think the cathedral in Santiago (as well as many others throughout other countries) profit from the pilgrims? I was sickened more by the fact you have to pay the church somewhere around $500 euros to have the incense swung at mass. And I wasnt happy that the original St. James statue (that for years Pilgrims were allowed to touch) is locked up.

 

[John Finn]

It is a statue! Don't you think the cathedral in Santiago (as well as many others throughout other countries) profit from the pilgrims? I was sickened more by the fact you have to pay the church somewhere around $500 euros to have the incense swung at mass. And I wasnt happy that the original St. James statue (that for years Pilgrims were allowed to touch) is locked up.

Well yes, it is, of course, a statue. Still, a modicum of respect is required especially as there is a notice expressly forbidding photography. I think it's just good manners to behave appropriately around such symbols or emblems. I would not, for instance, countenance any disrespect towards the American (or any other nation's) national flag even though one could argue it's just a piece of cloth.

 

[SYates]

It is a statue! Don't you think the cathedral in Santiago (as well as many others throughout other countries) profit from the pilgrims? I was sickened more by the fact you have to pay the church somewhere around $500 euros to have the incense swung at mass. And I wasnt happy that the original St. James statue (that for years Pilgrims were allowed to touch) is locked up.

As far as I know the fee is 300 Euro and goes mainly to the lay people that manage the ropes to swing the botafumeiro. Also, the costs of 'running' a huge church building like this are mind boggling - think insurances, heating, maintanance, renovations etc. And last but not least, only the original 'mantel' (coat made of precious metals and gems) is 'locked up' in the museum - because pilgrims have, in the past 'pinched' gems from it. The remains of Saint James are still in the crypt - accessible and visible to all. Buen Camino, SY

 

[notion900]

If you go to church in England, a collection bag or plate is passed around every pew. It's impossible to avoid putting money in it without looking rude. Some cathedrals charge for entry unless you are attending mass.

In Spain, it's a lot less 'compulsory' to give money to the church, and I am sure many people who visit Santiago give nothing to the cathedral.

 

[Mike Trebert]

I'm fine with selfies. I very much like C Clearly's selfie. My photo that you see here is a selfie. I prefer to travel alone, and I prefer not to ask people to photograph me (no selfie, no photos). I always photograph my family, and have almost no photos of myself at family events because I am often left out of photos (married, step kids, no kids of my own, I take the photos).

Selfie sticks are annoying.

I don't think it's wise to breach protocol regarding photos in church, but I've done it. Probably won't do it again, but it may be worth considering that the whole Santiago de Compostela town and Cathedral have become a world-wide destination, and people do like to capture experiences on film. Also, have a look at youtube for all of the swinging botafumeiro videos. I am quite sure that if the church didn't want cameras / phones in church, they could effectively eliminate them.

Short shorts in church is very disrespectful, and I have seen people from all cultures commit similar sins.

In Cambodia, monks smoked, drank, and played cards. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

And that's all I'm going to say about that!

I took photos in Santiago Cathedral as did many other people. The security people asked many of us not to take photos then walked away and never followed up. I got the strong impression that they didn't enjoy trying to enforce this rule as it was clearly a futile exercise. I didn't shoot in the central area of the cathedral during mass but did shoot during the botafumeiro "show". I find that camera phones are extremely distracting in a public, crowded place as the screens are so bright, especially when held at arms length above the head. Some people actually shoot with tablets which are huge. Cameras don't light up like that, my back screen tilts downwards towards me, it isn't visible from a distance. I put black tape on some bits of my camera, particularly the white lettering on the front which is designed to be highly visible.

If you don't like selfie-sticks, just wait for selfie-drones! Some drones are getting to be very small and much cheaper. Soon they will be everywhere and VERY irritating. I've written comments on a couple of photography blogs about these new tiny drones. They will become so numerous and intrusive (and dangerous and noisy) that regulations will tighten and they will become more strictly controlled. I hope.

Mike

 

[SYates]

..., just wait for selfie-drones! Some drones are getting to be very small and much cheaper. Soon they will be everywhere and VERY irritating. I've written comments on a couple of photography blogs about these new tiny drones. They will become so numerous and intrusive (and dangerous and noisy) that regulations will tighten and they will become more strictly controlled. I hope. ...

Now how do I get that mental picture of flocks of mini-drones flying through the cathedral like noisy birds out of my mind? BC SY

 

[Mike Trebert]

Now how do I get that mental picture of flocks of mini-drones flying through the cathedral like noisy birds out of my mind? BC SY

They'll be too noisy to use indoors. Also they would all appear in everyone's shots which I think will be a major problem when they are used outdoors, especially at major tourist sites. I saw a video on the forum a few weeks ago which was shot inside the cathedral - obviously by a drone! Cathedral was empty and lights were on, windows dark so shoot was at night. It would have been a fairly big drone so pretty noisy. I was surprised that permission was granted to fly a drone inside the cathedral. It seems there's always a danger of failure and a crash, so what potential damage to the cathedral interior bits and bobs? I wonder if the videographers were insured.

Mike

 

[Mike Trebert]

Cathedral interior drone footage here:

There is some light coming through the windows, so probably very early morning. Camera is set for low light so window light appears brighter than it really was. Also, one tiny figure doing some chores near the altar. Some exterior drone footage too. There are a couple of interior shots in confined spaces which are probably not drone shots, but it's easy to see when the camera is flying high. Again, I'm amazed that permission was granted to shoot using a drone inside the cathedral.

 

[SabsP]

Now how do I get that mental picture of flocks of mini-drones flying through the cathedral like noisy birds out of my mind? BC SY

deep sigh...what is next : A drone delivering walking sticks or socks ( ordered online ) when Mass is going on...

"O tempora O mores" ...to quote Cicero....

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

[QUOTE="Mike Trebert, post: 522876, member: 52084"Again, I'm amazed that permission was granted to shoot using a drone inside the cathedral.[/QUOTE]
Flying with a drone in the Kathedral, is there nothing sacred anymore .

Wish you well,Peter.