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Shouldn't it be two different types of credenciales (pilgrims' passports)?

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Castilian

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Well, maybe they already exist and I'm just unaware of it. I don't know.

Let's see, the credencial (the Cathedral issued one that I know) states that it's just for pilgrims making the route with a Christian sense. Shouldn't pilgrims that make the pilgrimage without any Christian sense have other type/model of credencial that didn't present them as pilgrims with a Christian sense? How can a credencial that states it's just for pilgrims making the pilgrimage with a Christian sense serve as a proof you made it without any Spiritual reason?
 
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Different coloured credenciales, or the covers on such as the CSJ ones, might also help the volunteers in the Pilgrims' Office. A pilgrim might need to change their credencial while on the Way if they change their motivation, which might make it less practicable.
 
It wouldn't make any sense at all for there to be separate credentiales for people with/without religious motivations because motivations can and do change along the way. The important thing is to have a credentiale, get at least one stamp (sello) a day along the route and then two a day in the last 100kms. When you arrive in the Oficina del Peregrinos in Santiago you will be asked your motivation. For most people this is mixed: religious, spiritual, cultural, touristic, etc. However, you are asked this as this determines which certificate you are given. If you say that you have religious or spiritual reasons, you will be given a compostela. If you say you have cultural or touristic reasons, you are given a 'welcome certificate'. Both are free. Both are written in Latin and your name will be translated to Latin. Even if you have mixed motives (as most do) you still have to choose one. I have seen people who have started out with purely cultural and touristic motivations experience a form of spirituality on the Camino, such as looking at the world and themselves in a different way. So, choosing at the beginning is like asking you to review a movie before you have seen it.

I know that some credentiales ask you to choose when you start. The Oficinal staff never look at this.

Buen Camino!
 
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Credenciales issued by national camino groups (the Confraternity, CCoP, AQC, APOC etc) generally have no mention of specific motivations. Become a member of your local association and they will provide you with their document.
 
It wouldn't make any sense at all for there to be separate credentiales for people with/without religious motivations because motivations can and do change along the way. The important thing is to have a credentiale, get at least one stamp (sello) a day along the route and then two a day in the last 100kms. When you arrive in the Oficina del Peregrinos in Santiago you will be asked your motivation.
The question is not about the Compostela. It's about the credencial. Don't you need a credencial if you want to stay in a municipal albergue which, I assume, is a strictly non-religious establishment? IOW, don't you need a credencial even if you have no intention to ever ask for a Compostela? I think @Castilian's question is touching on a topic that is often glossed over, perhaps on purpose. Have a look at the text of the credencial (the one that is linked on this forum page) which says in the first line for whom it is meant. And the last line which says that the holder of the credencial accepts these conditions. How many people actually read this?
 
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Credenciales issued by national camino groups (the Confraternity, CCoP, AQC, APOC etc) generally have no mention of specific motivations. Become a member of your local association and they will provide you with their document.
Are you sure that this applies to the newer credencials? I am just curious, I don't know the answer.
 
When you arrive in the Oficina del Peregrinos in Santiago you will be asked your motivation.

Yes but that's already stated in the credencial (see below) so it shouldn't be necessary to ask it again unless we assume that what it's stated on the credencial may or may not be true.

If you say you have cultural or touristic reasons, you are given a 'welcome certificate'.

Yes but to be given it you have to present the credencial with

at least one stamp (sello) a day along the route and then two a day in the last 100kms.

what leads to the second question I wrote on the post that opened the thread:

How can a credencial that states it's just for pilgrims making the pilgrimage with a Christian sense serve as a proof you made it without any Spiritual reason?

By using a credencial, you are accepting the rules/requirements stated in the credencial (as the text of the credencial itself says). Among those rules/requirements, one says the credencial is just for pilgrims making the pilgrimage with a Christian sense. If you claim you made it just, for example, for cultural or touristic reasons, you broke that rule/requirement stated in the credencial. It seems there's no problem to break that rule/requirement and you are given a welcome certificate if you meet the stamps rule/requirement (i.e. it seems that missing a stamp is considered worse than to lie). But I think people walking without a Christian sense should be given the option of making it without a credencial that presents them as pilgrims with a Christian sense because some of them might not feel confortable with the fact they are being presented as pilgrims with a Christian sense.

Credenciales issued by national camino groups (the Confraternity, CCoP, AQC, APOC etc) generally have no mention of specific motivations.

That's interesting. When the Cathedral authorities decided to accept just their official model of credencial, they seemed interested in emphasizing the Christian sense of the pilgrimage. The official model could be personalized by institutions or groups agreeing it with the Cathedral authorities (if I'm not wrong) but I can't think the Cathedral authorities would accept a personalization involving the deletion references to the Christian sense of the pilgrimage... Anyway, I guess the question is: Are you sure the credenciales currently issued by those associations don't have any text of them saying they are for pilgrims making the pilgrimage with a Christian sense (or something similar to it)?
 
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Yes but that's already stated in the credencial (see below) so it shouldn't be necessary to ask it again unless we assume that what it's stated on the credencial may or may not be true.
I like your reasoning. :)

The website of the Oficina del Peregrino provides a translation (a bit too literal, I think) of the "Remarks" in the Credencial that "everyone should read before embarking on their pilgrimage":

This Credencial is only for pilgrims on foot, bicycle or horseback, who wish to make the pilgrimage with a Christian sentiment [con sentido cristiano], even if it is only with an attitude of search [actitud de búsqueda].
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The bearer of this Credencial accepts these conditions.

It would be interesting to know how this is worded in newer international versions. I have an older French version which just demands are more general, less clearly defined "spiritual attitude" [démarche spirituelle] for the pilgrimage but nevertheless a "Christian attitude" [démarche chrétienne] for obtaining the Compostela. As I said, I think this is often glossed over.
 
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Who cares, really!! :)
In fact, behind the majority of "walkers/finishers", there's a spiritual/Christian sense... even if they deny it. The Camino changes you in some way and can start an interior road to something special, spiritual, christian...
 
The website of the Oficina del Peregrino provides a translation (a bit too literal, I think) of the "Remarks" in the Credencial that "everyone should read before embarking on their pilgrimage":

This Credencial is only for pilgrims on foot, bicycle or horseback, who wish to make the pilgrimage with a Christian sentiment [con sentido cristiano], even if it is only with an attitude of search [actitud de búsqueda].
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The bearer of this Credencial accepts these conditions.

It would be interesting to know how this is worded in newer international versions. I have an older French version which just demands are more general, less clearly defined "spiritual attitude" [démarche spirituelle] for the pilgrimage but nevertheless a "Christian attitude" [démarche chrétienne] for obtaining the Compostela. As I said, I think this is often glossed over.

How do they define "sentido cristiano", Christian sentiment, or démarche chrétienne? It's not very easy these days - in some definitions, for example, living ones life according to Christ's central exhortation to "love thy neighbour as thyself", the bar might easily be vaulted by many atheists while being failed by many professed Christians. Once, presumably, the compostela and credencial were only issued to communion-taking, or at least baptised, members of the Roman Catholic Church.

Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart. Psalms, 44, 21.
 
Different coloured credenciales, or the covers on such as the CSJ ones, might also help the volunteers in the Pilgrims' Office.

I'm not sure how are the covers you talk about so I won't comment about them. However, I'll say that I don't like the idea of different coloured credenciales. That would make obvious who's walking for one sort of reasons and who's walking for other sort of reasons what might lead some people to judge other pilgrims, to discussions about why you believe or disbelieve whatever you believe or disbelieve... I think the credenciales, if there were two different types/models, should be as similar as possible being the differences just in the text that in one of the types would present the pilgrim as someone making a pilgrimage with a Christian sense (whatever that means) and on the other one there wouldn't be references to the Christian sense of it. In Spanish, peregrinación doesn't necessarily imply a religious sense but if in other languages it implies it, other word(s) may be used instead.

Who cares, really!! :)

Well, I read on other threads users actively refusing to have made the pilgrimage for any religious reason. That made me think that the credencial (the one that I know) may/might make feel (some of) that people unconfortable (if they were fully aware of what the credencial that I know says, i.e.) and that they should have access to a credencial that didn't make them feel unconfortable.

How do they define "sentido cristiano", Christian sentiment, or démarche chrétienne?

I don't think that's relevant for the topic of this thread. Regarless how you (or anyone else) defines it, if there's people that don't feel confortable being presented as pilgrims with a Christian sense (whatever they consider that means) or even that actively refuses to be presented that way, I think they should have the option to have a credencial without that reference.
 
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If you walk (live) in the spirit of love for your fellow man/woman, isn't that in the Christian Spirit?

IMHO, whatever it's the Christian Spirit for each one isn't relevant for the topic of this thread. If there's people that don't feel confortable (or that refuse) being presented as having a Christian Spirit (whatever that means for them) or making the pilgrimage with a Christian sense (whatever that means for them), IMHO, they should have access to a credencial without that sort of references. Whether they should have access to that sort of credencial or they shouldn't have access to it, it's what this thread is about. Should there be a credencial that didn't present the pilgrim as someone making the pilgrimage with a Christian sense for pilgrims that refuse or don't feel confortable being presented as someone who makes the pilgrimage with a Christian sense (whatever that means for each person)?
 
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I have in front of me three generations of CCoP credentials. The first, which was used until 2003, says: "... and that it is their desire to make this pilgrimage in the Christian spirit of searching for God." The second reads: "...their desire to make the pilgrimage in the spirit of spiritual discovery and renewal." Since January, the new CCoP accordion-shaped credencial says that the credencial: "...identifies you as a pilgrim to the refugios or albergues along the way." Pilgrims using all three generations have been able to secure the Compostela in Santiago, having fulfilled the other requirements of distance and proofs by sello.
 
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I have in front of me three generations of CCoP credentials. The first, which was used until 2003, says: "... and that it is their desire to make this pilgrimage in the Christian spirit of searching for God." The second reads: "...their desire to make the pilgrimage in the spirit of spiritual discovery and renewal." Since January, the new CCoP accordion-shaped credencial says that the credencial: "...identifies you as a pilgrim to the refugios or albergues along the way."

Thanks for the info. It's very interesting. I think just the last one would be fine for people refusing any religous or spiritual reason but then people with a deep religious sense of the pilgrimage may/might miss references to it... That's why I think that it would be a good idea to have two different types of credenciales so people could choose the one they feel most confortable with.

BTW, I'm someway surprised that the Cathedral accepts nowdays a customization of the credencial deleting references to the Christian sense of the pilgrimage when they seemed to be interested in emphasizing that Christian sense of it when they announced they would accept just the credenciales issued by them from April 1st (2016) onwards. Maybe someone with on the ground knowledge (@peregrina nicole ?) could tell us if that sort of credenciales are in risk of being unacccepted in a nearby future?

Another question, Does it identify you as a pilgrim just to the refugios or albergues along the way? No reference to identify you as a pilgrim to the Cathedral authorities and/or to the pilgrims' office?
 
The Cathedral authorities have long made it clear that they accept the credentials issued by national pilgrims' organizations, not just the documents issued by them. This is a longstanding practice, and was reaffirmed at meetings with the Cathedral and the associations at the time of the first international Camino associations conference held in Santiago in 2015.

In terms of your last question, I don't know if anyone thought that a Cathedral-specific reference was necessary, and almost 700 CCoP credentials with that wording have been accepted in Santiago, and compostelas issued on that account.
 
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Bad idea. Complicate the whole process.

What if the Church/Organization ran out of the religious credentials? Would you accept a non religious one?

As some have said, it is only for bed, and even then may not really be necessary as I have know people who had lost theirs and still have a bed.
 
In the end, it's a pilgrimage. If you really aren't comfortable with at least a spiritual aspect (self-reflection? - as oursonpolo says, the official definition is pretty wide) then there are plenty of GR routes and other trails around Europe you can use. The point of the credential is that special help, community and facilities are available to walkers with a certain set of motivations, walking within a specific age-old structure. Some people still haven't picked up on this aspect even when they get to Santiago, and they can get the Welcome Certificate. I'd be interested in knowing what percentage do. I suspect it's very low.
 
I'm someway surprised that the Cathedral accepts nowdays a customization of the credencial deleting references to the Christian sense of the pilgrimage when they seemed to be interested in emphasizing that Christian sense of it when they announced they would accept just the credenciales issued by them from April 1st (2016) onwards
I'm also surprised by this. It seems that the further away the issuer, the more secular the credencial ;).
 
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The point of the credential is that special help, community and facilities are available to walkers with a certain set of motivations, walking within a specific age-old structure.
But isn't this all a bit wishy-washy? The overwhelming majority of the infrastructure is secular, financed by secular money, promoted by secular organisations. It doesn't matter in this context what your motivation for walking it is, everyone is free to walk it and use it. Surprisingly - or perhaps not surprisingly - the text in the current (new) Spanish credencial says that it has two purposes, and one of them is that it gives the holder access to los albergues que ofrece la hospitalidad cristiana del camino. My pre-2016 French version gives me access to the albergues that offer a more general "hospitality of the way" - whatever that is ;).

BTW, I personally think that "Christian" means a bit more than loving your neighbour, being a good person, or we are all the same before one god really - the Apostles' Creed comes to mind - but it's not the topic of this thread.
 
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I'm not sure how are the covers you talk about so I won't comment about them. However, I'll say that I don't like the idea of different coloured credenciales. That would make obvious who's walking for one sort of reasons and who's walking for other sort of reasons what might lead some people to judge other pilgrims, to discussions about why you believe or disbelieve whatever you believe or disbelieve... I think the credenciales, if there were two different types/models, should be as similar as possible being the differences just in the text that in one of the types would present the pilgrim as someone making a pilgrimage with a Christian sense (whatever that means) and on the other one there wouldn't be references to the Christian sense of it. In Spanish, peregrinación doesn't necessarily imply a religious sense but if in other languages it implies it, other word(s) may be used instead.
I wouldn't want anything to make problems for non-religious walkers/pilgrims but I don't think many would actually note differing coloured outer covers, or know their significance. If they did it might invite discussion and we could all learn something new from one another's motives - without being judgemental. :)
 
The Cathedral authorities have long made it clear that they accept the credentials issued by national pilgrims' organizations, not just the documents issued by them. This is a longstanding practice, and was reaffirmed at meetings with the Cathedral and the associations at the time of the first international Camino associations conference held in Santiago in 2015.

Yes, I know. But, I think it makes little sense that the Cathedral authorities want to emphasize the Christian sense of the pilgrimage at the same time they accept a credencial that deleted the reference(s?) it had to that Christian sense. IMHO, it only makes sense if the Cathedral authorities aren't (fully) aware of what's the current text of the credencial of whatever associations don't include that sort of references at the moment what leads to the question: Would those credenciales by refused once the Cathedral realized their lack of references to the Christian sense of the pilgrimage? Although, of course, the first question may be: Are the Cathedral authorities fully aware of the current text of each of the credenciales that they accept as valid?

BTW, The Cathedral authorities established a máximum price of 2 Euros for the credencial and it seems the CCoP charges more...

In terms of your last question, I don't know if anyone thought that a Cathedral-specific reference was necessary, and almost 700 CCoP credentials with that wording have been accepted in Santiago, and compostelas issued on that account.

Maybe I'm the only one who finds odd that a credencial states that it identifies you as a pilgrim to the refugios or albergues along the route (i.e.: to the owners and the staff of accommodations along your route) but doesn't state that it identifies you to the people in charge of your destination (i.e.: the Cathedral authorities and the staff of the places runned by them)?

I suspect any form of differentiated credentials would result in differentiated treatment of pilgrims; that is to say, separate is inherently unequal.

That's why I said above I think the only difference should be in the text on them that one sort would include references to the Christian sense of the pilgrimage and the other type wouldn't include that sort of references. In other words, differences in the small print that barely anyone reads.

What if the Church/Organization ran out of the religious credentials? Would you accept a non religious one?

For a religious person, the word pilgrim has a religious meaning so any credencial including that word would be a religious one even if it doesn't include specific/explicit religious references.

If people actively refusing Christianity (and other religions) have been able to accept a credencial explicitly presenting them as people making a pilgrimage with a Christian sense, I think Christians can be open-minded enough as to accept a credencial without explicit references to the Christian sense of the pilgrimage (that wouldn't include either explicity references against its Christian sense) if the credenciales explicitly stating the Christian sense of the pilgrimage were sold out. Those unwilling to get a credencial that didn't explicitly state the Christian sense of the pilgrimage would have the same options that exist now if one entity runs out of credenciales: to look for a credencial somewhere else or to wait till that entity have them available once again.

As some have said, it is only for bed,

...and to get a Compostela or a welcome certificate if you were interested.

Some people still haven't picked up on this aspect even when they get to Santiago, and they can get the Welcome Certificate. I'd be interested in knowing what percentage do.

Official statistics can be found at: http://oficinadelperegrino.com/estadisticas There isn't info about the % of people that get a Welcome Certificate but there's info about the % that claim at the pilgrims' office to have made the pilgrimage for religious reasons, for a mix of religious and cultural reasons and just for cultural reasons. It's the last group the one that leads me to wonder:

How can a credencial that states it's just for pilgrims making the pilgrimage with a Christian sense serve as a proof that you made it just for cultural reasons? Shouldn't these pilgrims have access to a type of credencial that didn't present them as pilgrims making the pilgrimage with a Christian sense?

In the end, it's a pilgrimage. If you really aren't comfortable with at least a spiritual aspect (self-reflection? - as oursonpolo says, the official definition is pretty wide) then there are plenty of GR routes and other trails around Europe you can use.

Are you suggesting that the people that walk (or ride) (one of) the Camino(s) de Santiago refusing anything Christian and/or spirituality related shouldn't walk (or ride) it?

Let's face it: there's people that walk a Camino de Santiago and refuses any Christian and/or spiritual sentiment/reasons. They are making it, for example, to accompany a relative or a group of friends, or because they like hiking and it's the cheaper they can afford (or so they think) or because someone told them about it but didn't told them it was a pilgrimage or...
 
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Wonder what would happen if Santiago only let the Catholic Church offices around the world issue credenciales instead of secular organisations that in the end are social clubs.

Would it take a bit of a toll on the holiday not a pilgrimage attitudes?

Just imagine having to go meet the local priest and explain you want to go on the world's least expensive cycling holiday thanks to the hospitality of the good nuns and monks along the way :eek:.
 
Yes, I know. But, I think it makes little sense that the Cathedral authorities want to emphasize the Christian sense of the pilgrimage at the same time they accept a credencial that deleted the reference(s?) it had to that Christian sense. IMHO, it only makes sense if the Cathedral authorities aren't (fully) aware of what's the current text of the credencial of whatever associations don't include that sort of references at the moment what leads to the question: Would those credenciales by refused once the Cathedral realized their lack of references to the Christian sense of the pilgrimage? Although, of course, the first question may be: Are the Cathedral authorities fully aware of the current text of each of the credenciales that they accept as valid?

BTW, The Cathedral authorities established a máximum price of 2 Euros for the credencial and it seems the CCoP charges more...

Maybe I'm the only one who finds odd that a credencial states that it identifies you as a pilgrim to the refugios or albergues along the route (i.e.: to the owners and the staff of accommodations along your route) but doesn't state that it identifies you to the people in charge of your destination (i.e.: the Cathedral authorities and the staff of the places runned by them)?

I do not have the psychic powers to read into the minds of the Cathedral authorities, so cannot really answer your questions in a way which I think would satisfy you. However, they are sophisticated, knowledgeable, and I think bear in mind the history and context of the Camino as much as they do their evangelical responsibilities. The Camino has been the subject of much discussion by the Spanish bishops who are very much aware of the importance of the encounter between the Camino and a substantially non-RC population. The bishops have come to see that history has placed in front of them an extraordinary evangelical opportunity and they seem to be humble enough about it that they do not approach it in an aggressive manner and have placed themselves in readiness and openness--- but that's my interpretation, and others may differ.

I believe that the Cathedral authorities are well capable of reading and understanding all of the documentation which passes before them. I would suspect that they see them as part of a wide constellation of means and factors bringing people of a range of beliefs and degrees of openness into the spiritual experience of the Camino. I think that they are well aware that the foreign associations are dealing with local publics which feature different religious demographics and perhaps (as I said, I have no psychic powers here) they respect how each organization addresses this, and are primarily interested that pilgrims approach the Camino with a pilgrim's intent and with an open heart. But maybe I'm wrong in thinking this.

In terms of pricing, the CCoP charges less for its credenciales than does the AQC or APOC and the CCoP price has remained the same for the entirety of the organization's life. I know for a fact that the Cathedral has always been aware of this, and they have made no comment whatsoever to the previous two presidents.
 
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Hello Again!

I hadn't thought that that people would make this issue so complex. I'm a volunteer in the Pilgrim's office and I'm one of the people who looks at your credential, asks you your motivation (which you fill in on a form along with other data like gender, age, nationality and where you started from) and writes up the appropriate certificate.

If you want to stay in pilgrim albergues you need to show your credencial. This is proof that you are a pilgrim. You can also use the credencial for discounted entry at some museums along the various routes. If you want to get either a Compostela or a Welcome Certificate you need to show your credencial AND you need at least two stamps per day for the last 100km of a recognised route if you are on foot, horse or wheelchair and 200km if you are on a bike. You can have started in Warsaw or Le Puy but what we look at for issuing the above mentioned documents (which are free) are the sellos. These have to be dated and they need to be in a logical sequence (i.e. in the order you would have acquired them if you walked or cycled). The sellos do not have to be from churches or albergues. They can be from bars, restaurants, bakeries, police stations, petrol stations, i.e. any place that has a stamp. Last year, when I volunteered, the person next to me had a man come in with a sello from Sarria (dated), a sello from Melide (over 60km away from Sarria and dated the following day) and he was in the Oficina on day 3 asking for a Compostela. He claimed to have covered 116km on foot in three days. When asked about the lack of sellos, he said that there were no places that issues them apart from Melide. Anyone who has walked this know that this is impossible. At my desk, there was a peregrina who started in Sarria. It took her 5 days and her credencial was full of sellos. She showed him her credencial. Other peregrinos from Sarria also showed theirs. We refused a Compostela (or a Welcome Certificate) to this person as it was clear that he must have taken the bus or a car. We turned down someone today who had s credencial, but he had sellos from all over the place: Lugo, Sarria, Melide, between Finisterre and Muxia...In short, there is no way this person could have liked all this up by foot because they are from different routes. Clearly this was another case of someone using a car who thought that we wouldn't notice. We are strict about this because it is unfair to give a Compostela or a Welcome Certificate to someone who hasn't done the route on foot. The rules for getting a Compostela or Welcome Certificate are clearly stated on the Oficina website, in most guidebooks and in most of the credenciales. The Spanish and 'official' credenciales from country associations have the correct rubric about what qualifies you for the above mentioned certificate.

As I said in my previous email, we don't look at what box you may or may not have ticked on your credencial when you started your route. Some credenciales don't have a box at all. The old French ones did. We ask you at the desk what your motivation is and ask you to tick a box. Most people have multiple motivations. In this case, I show them both documents, explain what they mean and say you have to choose one. I must admit that the wording on the form and the wording on the Oficina website don't quite match up, but it is easy enough to figure out. According to the stats, in June 2016, 43% of people said that their motivation was religious. This is the first box on the form. I've had a Buddhist monk tick this box, so you don't have to be Catholic to have a religious reason for pilgrimage. 50% said that their motivation was religious/cultural. The wording on the form says 'religioso o otro'. This is the second box. I explain that this means religious or spiritual reasons. Some people do the Camino in order to discover themselves. Some do it as a promise to some one (a dead or ill relative). We count this as 'spiritual' and this is the second box. People who tick box 1 or 2 get the Compostela. The third box on the form says 'no religioso'. In the stats, this is down as 'cultural' and in June 2016, 7% of pilgrims fell into this category. When I describe this category to people I explain that this is for people who are doing the Camino purely for touristic, cultural or sporting reasons. These people get the 'Welcome Certificate'. Both documents are beautiful and have coloured illustrations from the Codex Calixto (an early document on the pilgrimage to Santiago). Both are written in Latin and we translate your first and middle name into Latin when we fill out these documents. We welcome all pilgrims equally regardless of their stated motivation upon arrival as long as they get the required sellos.

The Oficina del Peregrino falls under the wing of the Cathedral and I think that they would like to think that people are doing pilgrimage for 'religious or spiritual' reasons. However, the reality is that not everyone doing this pilgrimage is Catholic nor do they have religious or spiritual motives for doing this. It should be noted that in 1987, the Camino de Santiago was declared a European Cultural Itinerary (the first in Europe to be so designated). In 2015, the Camino del Norte was declared a World Heritage Site by UNESCO. Whatever the wording of the Credencial issued by the Cathedral in Santiago, the cultural nature of the Camino cannot be ignored. I don't know if this is the case but it wouldn't surprise me if this is why the stats have the word 'cultural' added to it.
 
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I do not have the psychic powers to read into the minds of the Cathedral authorities

I didn't pretend it either. I was just expressing some thoughts and making some questions that would most likely be rhetorical unless there was some Cathedral authority reading. However, I thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts/guesses about the points of view that might have the Cathedral authorities.

We are strict about this because it is unfair to give a Compostela or a Welcome Certificate to someone who hasn't done the route on foot.

@peregrina nicole, you explain very well how you work at the pilgrims' office, what are the requirements to get a Compostela (BTW, I have one myself), what are the requirements to get a Welcome Certificate... and I appreciate your effort explaining it. But I think you didn't get yet the point of the thread. I'll give it another try: Is it fair that a pilgrim that makes the route for non-religious reasons (e.g.: cultural, touristic...) has to use a credencial (the Cathedral issued one) stating s/he's making it with a Christian sense to be given a Welcome Certificate? Shouldn't those pilgrims have right to use a credencial that didn't say they are making it with a Christian sense?
 
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This old pagan walks the Caminos for very particular reasons - most especially because they have been walked before and they will be walked again by pilgrims. Me, I'll take the simple definitions of pilgrims - searcher, seeker, and be they self-satisfiers or sad-sacks I don't care ... Those who undertake a journey to a place of religious or spiritual significance to them. (and I don't give a flying fig how they get there as long as they feel good about it.) Maybe I started life a bit late on the 'designated' caminos but when I did I ticked the box on my credencial that said 'spiritual" same as I do on that sweet little form in the Blessed Officina de Pereginos.

The credencial in its various formats over the years has given me access to the camino infrastructure that has supported my pilgrimages. It has neither defined nor qualified my pilgrimage which is to shrines more ancient and in piety to gods far older than for most who walk the ways. No-one has yet questioned my credencials as a pilgrim but perhaps a time will come when my (red / black /leaf green?) credencial will distinguish me as pagan neither religios nor sportif and so excluded perhaps from either Albergue de Peregrinos or Sports Hall mattress. If it comes it comes, like the cold wind from the East. I hope it won't. @Castilian amigo I think I understand why you have raised the question - as one who walks the caminos in and with a loving heart but not a member of one of the monotheistic clubs - but let us not go any further in dividing ourselves into factions and types and classes. I loved Brother David's safety-pin post. Perhaps the better solution is that we should scrap the credencial: the requirement should be that a pilgrim can look the hospitalero/a in the eye and state 'I am a pilgrim' and the rest may find shelter where they can.
 
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No-one has yet questioned my credencials as a pilgrim but perhaps a time will come when my (red / black /leaf green?) credencial will distinguish me as pagan neither religios nor sportif and so excluded perhaps from either Albergue de Peregrinos or Sports Hall mattress. If it comes it comes, like the cold wind from the East. I hope it won't.

I also hope it won't arrive such time. I think the camino should welcome everyone. At the moment, it seems there are several credenciales used (the Cathedral one that I knew and several issued by different confraternities) and nobody makes a fuss of it. Among those credenciales, it seems not all of them explicitly state the credencial is for pilgrims making the route with a Christian sense and nobody makes a fuss of it either. In other words, it seems there are already credenciales explicitly stating the Christian sense of the pilgrim and credenciales that doesn't explicitly state it (I wasn't aware of the later ones). I think that all entities issuing credenciales should offer both types or, at least, inform that other entities may issue the other type (i.e.: the type that entity doesn't offer) so people can look for the type that makes them to feel more comfortable... as long as the Cathedral authorities remain accepting credenciales that don't explicitly introduce the pilgrim as someone with a Christian sense, i.e.
 
The more general credenciales are a bit like a decanter-- you can put different sorts of liquids in them. I know that many church-going CCoP members have the first sello from their home parish, and some of them arrange for pilgrims' blessings. AQC chapters normally have an envoi ceremony where they receive a pilgrims' blessing, often from the local bishop-- many of their members are not churchgoers, but turn up anyway. For the envoi, pilgrims put their packs on and depart from their front doors, usually with family members, and walk to the cathedral or church where this is held--- I have seen this in Gatineau, Québec, and trickles and streams of 150 pilgrims from all parts of the city end up at the Cathedral on boulevard Saint Raymond, where the ceremony is held. I knew many of the members, some devout RCs and others nominally so, others from other Christian churches, and about half with no affiliation (and even a Muslim!), and it all works. Each of them would have their own experiences and, as they go, would discover their motivations, even if it takes years to do so.

Other pilgrims have no church or religious connexion at all. They have a beer with family and friends, and get some big hugs at the airport. It all works out.

As a former bureaucrat, I would avoid documentary complications if at all possible-- let the Camino work itself on the pilgrims.
 
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Castilian amigo I think I understand why you have raised the question - as one who walks the caminos in and with a loving heart but not a member of one of the monotheistic clubs - but let us not go any further in dividing ourselves into factions and types and classes
I just had a look at the CSJ's (UK) model; apparently, they have two models. It's not easy to see the full design online but it is apparently also largely devoid of the topical references in the French and Spanish versions that have been mentioned in this thread and their (English) text contains just a fleeting reference to the vague and all encompassing "spiritual motivation" and only in connection with obtaining the Compostela and not the credencial/pilgrimage as such. I wasn't aware of this and I at least am pleased to have learnt about these differences.
 
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Wonder what would happen if Santiago only let the Catholic Church offices around the world issue credenciales instead of secular organisations that in the end are social clubs.

Would it take a bit of a toll on the holiday not a pilgrimage attitudes?

Who knows! Maybe those secular organizations would lobby to keep their status as credencial issuers. If they didn't success and there was a significant drop of pilgrims as a result on an enforcement by the Cathedral Authorities of the Christian sense of the pilgrimage, they might try to reach an agreement with the city council (or v.v.; i.e.: the city council might look for an agreement with the secular organizations) to issue secular credenciales and Welcome Certificates apart of those of the Cathedral... Who knows! There are tons of possible options! The only thing that seems clear is that the parts involved will do their best to (try to) keep the income that pilgrims provide to them.

The more general credenciales are a bit like a decanter-- you can put different sorts of liquids in them.

Yes, the more general, the more people that are encompassed. I didn't know about the existence of those 'general' credenciales what may explain why I opened this thread.
 
This will be my last post on this topic.
A) I still maintain that people should not be issued with different credentials at the the beginning of their Camino because their motivations can change along the route. I can see why people are concerned about the wording of the Spanish credencial for people who are not doing it in a 'christian' sense.
B) I had the opportunity today to raise the issue of the wording on the new Spanish credencial with the Dean of the Cathedral who is in charge of pilgrims. He noted that it also adds that it is for people who 'sea en actitud de busqueda'. His view is that this covers everyone.
C) if you object to the wording of the credencial and feel strongly that it does not apply to you, don't use a credencial and don't expect to get a Compostela or Welcome Certificate in Santiago. As an alternative, you can use a marker to cross out the bits you object to. I would very much doubt if anyone at the office noticed. However, it might make you happier in yourself (which is what the Camino is supposed to be about).
 
I had the opportunity today to raise the issue of the wording on the new Spanish credencial with the Dean of the Cathedral who is in charge of pilgrims.

I'm glad you had that opportunity and I give you a big THANK YOU for caring to ask him about the subject. Knowing his point of view, I can draw some conclusions.

if you object to the wording of the credencial and feel strongly that it does not apply to you, don't use a credencial and don't expect to get a Compostela or Welcome Certificate in Santiago.

I think I should clarify, just in case it wasn't clear enough on previous posts, that, personally, I'm fine with the wording of the Cathedral issued credenciales. I just was concerned there could be people don't feeling comfortable with it that may/might deserve a credencial with a different wording on it.
 
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