Snow rescue again

[peregrina2000]

Many of you probably remember the rash of pilgrim rescues undertaken last year by the Navarran authorities, which led to imposition of a 1,500€ rescue charge. http://www.caminodesantiago.me/comm...harge-for-rescues-caused-by-imprudence.16849/

Similar facts this year, different place:
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...ieve-foncebadon-peregrino-japones_866289.html

Pilgrim leaves Rabanal despite warnings, has to be rescued by authorities near Foncebadon, and then continues merrily on his way by bus to Ponferrada. Be careful pilgrims!!!!

 

[Anniesantiago]

Many of you probably remember the rash of pilgrim rescues undertaken last year by the Navarran authorities, which led to imposition of a 1,500€ rescue charge. http://www.caminodesantiago.me/comm...harge-for-rescues-caused-by-imprudence.16849/

Similar facts this year, different place:
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...ieve-foncebadon-peregrino-japones_866289.html

Pilgrim leaves Rabanal despite warnings, has to be rescued by authorities near Foncebadon, and then continues merrily on his way by bus to Ponferrada. Be careful pilgrims!!!!

They should begin making those pilgrims who ignore the warnings pay for their rescue!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

They should begin making those pilgrims who ignore the warnings pay for their rescue!

They have. I think the Navarra rate is about $1,500E.

 

[StuartM]

I used to be a rescue volunteer and the question of whether to pay or not was a tough one. I'm not sure the threat of charges would do much good. Sure it'd go a long way to pay for the rescue (once it had all the civil service depts taking their cut for riding a desk) but I dont think it would discourage the ignorant. it's a fine after the event, education is far more important. I walked the Frances in autumn and a huge proportion of walkers had little/no outdoor experience and a lot if belief that the Camino will not let anything bad happen. Faith is good but a bit of common sense goes even further.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

the question of whether to pay or not was a tough one

It was debated in the press in Spain last year before the charge was instituted. I think Spain is less conflated on public services; you abuse them, and there are consequences! The stranded last year were almost all Koreans. Cell phones saved them.

 

[Tincatinker]

I used also to be a rescue volunteer, on Dartmoor for a while and in Snowdonia. We used to classify casualties as "lucky" and "un-lucky". The un-lucky were those who, despite having the right equipment, skills and knowledge to venture safely in challenging environments had had the mis-fortune to experience an accident and needed help. The lucky were those who ill-equipped, ignorant of hazards or ignoring advice placed themselves in situations from which they had to be rescued. They were "lucky" because there were people willing to risk their own comfort to mitigate their stupidity. And no, we never charged them a tuition fee.

 

[StuartM]

In the UK a lot of mountain and inshore rescue is run by charities. The RAF (airforce) have very good land and air based mountain rescue teams and the navy runs excellent air coverage (though a lot of this farmed out to private contractors). We're a maritime nation so the rescue services are already there for offshore incidents. Mountain rescue is a side benefit of that so in the overall scheme not that big an expense. There's nowhere more than a few miles from the coast.

I guess Spain is different with a much more extensive "interior".

It'd be nice if credencials came with an info sheet of basic trail good behaviour. Or maybe part of the document. Maybe there would be less incidents and the trail left more hygienic. I was really shocked on the Salvador how much disregard the only other walker I saw had for the mountains. Very much in the "nothing bad can happen because it's the Camino" camp. I've spent a lot of time in the hills and seeing the attitude of a lot of walkers is downright scary.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

There are good decisions, and there are bad decisions. There are good outcomes, and there are bad outcomes. Often all four are completely unrelated! I am in favor of charging for the bad decisions when they can be identified. Disobeying the recommendations of the knowledgeable in SJPdP counts as a bad decision in my book!

 

[whariwharangi]

Many of you probably remember the rash of pilgrim rescues undertaken last year by the Navarran authorities, which led to imposition of a 1,500€ rescue charge. http://www.caminodesantiago.me/comm...harge-for-rescues-caused-by-imprudence.16849/

Similar facts this year, different place:
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...ieve-foncebadon-peregrino-japones_866289.html

Pilgrim leaves Rabanal despite warnings, has to be rescued by authorities near Foncebadon, and then continues merrily on his way by bus to Ponferrada. Be careful pilgrims!!!!

The scary part is Ponferrada comes before O Cebreiro ... he could end up needing rescue again.

 

[whariwharangi]

There are good decisions, and there are bad decisions. There are good outcomes, and there are bad outcomes. Often all four are completely unrelated! I am in favor of charging for the bad decisions when they can be identified. Disobeying the recommendations of the knowledgeable in SJPdP counts as a bad decision in my book!

A decision by a competent person could result in an outcome that would be different for someone without experience in the same situation. The problem with recommendations is they are usually made for the lowest common denominator. Its a tough one because for sure there are a lot of people who don't have the requisite experience, perhaps more so for the camino than any other long distance walk.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Ah, the hubris of experience and control! There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots. Experience does not protect again bad luck, say that snow plow roaring down the highway in a flume of powder. Cautious, experienced pilgrim who made a "great decision" is paste on the roadside. There is absolutely nothing about the Camino that is worth a calculated risk. Nothing.

 

[whariwharangi]

Its not even calculated risk. I live in a country where very cold weather and snow are normal so I would have a greater understanding of what I'm up against if it were I going on from Rabanal today than does a person who lives in a tropical country and has never seen snow. Same goes for someone who hikes frequently versus someone who is on their first long walk ever. Hubris is still a problem ... we recently had here sea kayak deaths where some triathalon people didn't even make a go-no-go decision before going on the water ... but making such an assessment requires experience and knowledge.

And of course nothing protects from bad luck like getting hit in the small of the back by a snowplow. The albergue could collapse under the weight of the snow and so we are not further ahead in the game if we stay in place.

 

[jpflavin1]

Hiking and difficult weather experience comes in handy when unexpected events occur. Most experienced people would not hike in an unfamiliar environment if warned ahead of time by local residents.

Anyone who walks and needs to be rescued after being advised against doing so by locals should have to pay the cost of that rescue, imo.

I will take my chances on the Albergue roof collapsing.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[t2andreo]

One of the more profound lessons I learned early on my first Camino last year was that: "there are days to be smart and days to be brave." Although I have prior experience with wilderness hiking, military training and operations, as well as survival training, I learned FAST on the Camino exactly what Falcon says. NOTHING is worth risking your health or personal safety. Even calculated risks can be ill advised.

Just as an aside, I was on the Camino Frances at the same time period last year when the French woman day-hiker fell 300 meters down a non-Camino trail in the Pyrenees and was consumed completely by the Griffon Vultures within 45-minutes - before rescue services could reach her. THAT story made me exquisitely conscious of the new rule of the road I mentioned above. Without getting specific, just do a Bing or Google search on "Griffon Vulture Pyrenees hiker..."

I also believe that along with places to stay and altitude views of the Camino Frances, the starting point pilgrim offices ought to give out "rules of the road" sheets to everyone, in their own language and especially to folks who cannot possibly read the Latin alphabet we use throughout Western Europe. I am certain the translations can be done into Asian languages with nil effort or expense. At least everyone will have been duly informed.

Imagine the converse, were most of us to try to hike a trail in Thailand or India where the Sanskrit alphabet is used, or in Korea, Japan or China, where pictograph alphabets were the rule. We would be as totally perplexed as the Korean folks mentioned above. In all my travel to Asia over my career and after, I am still stymied by these alphabets. I well understand the perplexity of pilgrims from Korea, or other countries that do not share our alphabet.

I suggest it is a good idea to provide a printed list of helpful "rules" to folks who cannot handle the Roman Alphabet and a phrase-book in the several more or less standard languages along the Camino: i.e. Spanish, French, German, Italian, English, Dutch, Portuguese, etc.

There are days to be smart and days to be brave. Learn to recognize which is which and behave accordingly. If you act out of true ignorance, I submit you deserve to be rescued and not charged. However, if you were notified, as above, and failed to heed the warnings, then I maintain you should be charged.

Being made to "sign in" at the starting pilgrim office might be one way to enforce this. They already collect all manner of information now for statistical purposes. Perhaps noting the native language we read and write in, along with our signature, and perhaps our passport numbers would be useful. This "pilgrim register" would enable the rescue services to know more about who is out there.

 

[whariwharangi]

NOTHING is worth risking your health or personal safety. Even calculated risks can be ill advised.

This is exactly true.

However, travel in adverse weather conditions might be risk for some but not for others. It depends on the situation and the knowledge, level of preparedness, and experience of the person.

The phrase 'calculated risk' to me means that a person sets out under the knowledge that an elevated risk is being undertaken.

If I were in Foncebadon equipped with parka mukluks and mittens I would set out in the weather indicated by the OP ... its normal and not even a calculated risk. But if you've never used the gear even if you are equipped, it becomes an unreasonable risk. The problem is how do you differentiate. Sure its easy to judge that if someone were to set out in those conditions in a t-shirt and sneakers. But there are lots of variables in between that put that judgement call into question.

 

[Gailsie]

I had a difficult time finding yellow arrows when walking that Forcebadon in the fall, can't imagine trying to follow a trail in the snow.

 

[lynnejohn]

I am curious, so a couple of questions to those of you who have done adventure treks at say, a riskier level than the Camino - such as Annapurna, Machu Pichu, Kilimanjaro, and the like: Who knows you are there (re suggested registration). How are you rescued. Is there a charge for the rescue. I ask because I know several people who have done some or all of these adventures and I never thought to ask these questions until this discussion.
(my punctuation marks are not working)

 

[t2andreo]

I had a difficult time finding yellow arrows when walking that Foncebadon in the fall, can't imagine trying to follow a trail in the snow.

On 16 May last year, we had 12 cm of wet snow at Cruz de Ferro with near zero visibility. The wet snow also obliterated the trail markings leading from the road into the forest coming off the top of Puerta Irago and Punto Alta. The day before and day after were evidently clear and dry.

I and my tiny group of walkers opted to take the road down the mountain into Acebo and Molinaseca. We determined this to be "smarter" given the weather. We walked facing oncoming traffic - of which there was precious little. I recall there were more pilgrims than cars, all the way down.

We later learned from others in my original Camino Family group that two Irish fellows, who I think may have been part of my original group coming out of St. Jean, decided that to be "true" pilgrims they had to "suffer" and take the authentic forest route, regardless of the weather. Recalling back, we heard this refrain regularly from the both of them as they trudged on across northern Spain unprepared for wet or cold weather. I do recall they were wearing heavy wool sweaters, cotton or wool caps and plastic bin bags against the rain. Up until then, we just chuckled and let it pass...to each his or her own...

I am not being critical of them or their motivations. Actually, I rather respect them for the attempt, their dedication to the spirit of the Camino, and their minimalistic approach to the Camino. But this is an example of how such an attitude can prove very dangerous indeed. So, no names will be provided.

Anyway, coming off the Cruz de Ferro, and walking through the forest instead of along the winding road, the two fellows eventually lost the plot completely in the snow and fog. Not being equipped for winter survival as well as being lost, cold and wet, they finally dialled 112 on the one mobile they had. They were rescued by the local first-responders, and I understand were given a hefty bill for the service as well.

I later learned they returned to Ireland in some haste from Ponferrada. I know that I never saw them again after the morning tea at Foncebadon. One wonders if they paid the bill? Oh well, at least they did not earn a roadside memorial...

Some days be brave, other days be smart...

 

[whariwharangi]

I am curious, so a couple of questions to those of you who have done adventure treks at say, a riskier level than the Camino - such as Annapurna, Machu Pichu, Kilimanjaro, and the like: Who knows you are there (re suggested registration). How are you rescued. Is there a charge for the rescue. I ask because I know several people who have done some or all of these adventures and I never thought to ask these questions until this discussion.
(my punctuation marks are not working)

Most places there is no registration. There are often places that collect an entry fee but there is no monitoring of when you leave. NZ trails often had log books so at least if people were looking for you they'd know you had been there.

Its pretty rare to have accidents. Even places like West Coast Trail (which attracts many inexperienced hikers) have perhaps 2% evacuation rate. Typically someone would have to go on ahead to get assistance and return with means such as boat or helicopter to perform evacuation. Rarely, I have encountered people hiking equipped with Marine VHF or portable HF radios. Most Sea Kayakers carry at least Marine VHF. The problem with radios (including cell phones) is coverage and weight of equipement. The coverage problem is changing with satellite technologies like SPOT and PLB.

Here in Canada it depends on who does the rescue. Typically its no charge for a rescue. Professional SAR will be used for ground search and rescue only if volunteer organizations cannot. At sea there is a huge fine for not providing assistance. Ambulance services will charge a lot as will private operators who are contacted for the purpose of a ride to safety in situations where its not urgent.

We recently had people get stranded by bad weather on a trail closed for the winter. The rescue services came and went. The stranded and otherwise okay people remained stranded.

 

[jpflavin1]

This is exactly true.

However, travel in adverse weather conditions might be risk for some but not for others. It depends on the situation and the knowledge, level of preparedness, and experience of the person.

The phrase 'calculated risk' to me means that a person sets out under the knowledge that an elevated risk is being undertaken.

If I were in Foncebadon equipped with parka mukluks and mittens I would set out in the weather indicated by the OP ... its normal and not even a calculated risk. But if you've never used the gear even if you are equipped, it becomes an unreasonable risk. The problem is how do you differentiate. Sure its easy to judge that if someone were to set out in those conditions in a t-shirt and sneakers. But there are lots of variables in between that put that judgement call into question.

I am not trying to be contentious here. That said, I believe you are really rationalizing on the term 'calculated risk". I find it unlikely that anyone is coming equipped as you described. We are talking about Peregrino's here. Most likely they are unfamiliar with the route and dependent on landmarks. There is no "calculated risk" decision here.

Listen to the local residents as far as proceeding. Not only are these individuals risking their own safety but also those who come to rescue them.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[jmcarp]

I live in Colorado, USA, a state known for its year-round outdoor activities. This, of course, means that there are inevitably a fairly significant number of hikers, skiers, snowmobilers, hunters, fishermen, etc. that find themselves lost or injured in hard-to-reach wilderness areas. To help offset the cost of the SAR (search and rescue) operations, a 25-cent charge is added to every hunting and fishing license and every off-road vehicle and boat registration fee. Those that neither hunt nor fish, but spend a lot of time in the outdoors hiking or skiing can purchase a "CORSAR" -- Colorado Outdoor Recreation Search and Rescue -- card which is good for one-year ($3) or five years ($12). The fees from either the hunting/fishing or the COSAR card go into a general fund used to cover search and rescue efforts throughout the state. Anyone unfortunate enough to require an organized search and rescue operation may be required to reimburse the authorities for at least some of the cost of the SAR operations UNLESS they have a a valid Colorado hunting license, fishing license, or CORSAR card.

I mention all this because as others have suggested, perhaps such a minimal charge could be paid by all pilgrims to cover SAR costs. In reality, only a miniscule percentage of pilgrims actually require this service, so a charge of perhaps less than a Euro doesn't seem unreasonable. And to give all pilgrims the chance to be eligible for this benefit, should the need arise, this amount might be added to the donation or fee for the pilgrims' credential. The unfortunate pilgrim who needs the services of search and rescue authorities has only to show his or her pilgrims' passport to avoid being personally charged for the cost of the SAR operation. Just a thought.

Jim

 

[whariwharangi]

I live in Colorado, USA, a state known for its year-round outdoor activities. This, of course, means that there are inevitably a fairly significant number of hikers, skiers, snowmobilers, hunters, fishermen, etc. that find themselves lost or injured in hard-to-reach wilderness areas. To help offset the cost of the SAR (search and rescue) operations, a 25-cent charge is added to every hunting and fishing license and every off-road vehicle and boat registration fee. Those that neither hunt nor fish, but spend a lot of time in the outdoors hiking or skiing can purchase a "CORSAR" -- Colorado Outdoor Recreation Search and Rescue -- card which is good for one-year ($3) or five years ($12). The fees from either the hunting/fishing or the COSAR card go into a general fund used to cover search and rescue efforts throughout the state. Anyone unfortunate enough to require an organized search and rescue operation may be required to reimburse the authorities for at least some of the cost of the SAR operations UNLESS they have a a valid Colorado hunting license, fishing license, or CORSAR card.

I mention all this because as others have suggested, perhaps such a minimal charge could be paid by all pilgrims to cover SAR costs. In reality, only a miniscule percentage of pilgrims actually require this service, so a charge of perhaps less than a Euro doesn't seem unreasonable. And to give all pilgrims the chance to be eligible for this benefit, should the need arise, this amount might be added to the donation or fee for the pilgrims' credential. The unfortunate pilgrim who needs the services of search and rescue authorities has only to show his or her pilgrims' passport to avoid being personally charged for the cost of the SAR operation. Just a thought.

Jim

Yeah ... a 'minimal charge'. Add a 'minimal charge' here and a 'minimal charge' there and I might as well stay home, particularly when the 'minimal charge' is increased cuz its 'only fair'.

I hate being nickeled and dimed till my pockets are empty. At least a pick pocket is honest about his intent.

 

[jpflavin1]

This thread has had a couple of constructive ideas in relation to dealing with the rescue issue.

First, the cost of a rescue team is embedded. I am assuming a regional rescue team is there whether or not it is a Pilgrim route . Therefore, I would also assume local taxes pay for the cost unless it is voluntary (There would still be equipment cost). That said, a nominal fee paid by all users would not seem unreasonable. Just like the west coast trail in Canada charges a $50. fee and limits numbers of passes to walk the trail each year. I would pay the additional few Euro's as a user.

The other point, I felt was constructive, was the idea to print out informational sheets (from SJPdP) in all languages. There very well could be a communication barrier issue leading foreign Pilgrims to misunderstand warnings.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[Tia Valeria]

A simple sign would perhaps suffice along the route when it is unsafe to walk, then there would be no need of multiple-language handouts. Maybe a yellow arrow with a red X through it could be hung on the albergue door or on the signs out of towns or villages. The locals usually give good advice as they know the area. There will always be those who ignore advice and perhaps charging them, rather than them thinking they have a right to be rescued because they 'paid in' to a rescue fund, would be a good deterrent to both them and others following. That way folk think for themselves and stay safe hopefully.

 

[whariwharangi]

This thread has had a couple of constructive ideas in relation to dealing with the rescue issue.

First, the cost of a rescue team is embedded. I am assuming a regional rescue team is there whether or not it is a Pilgrim route . Therefore, I would also assume local taxes pay for the cost unless it is voluntary (There would still be equipment cost). That said, a nominal fee paid by all users would not seem unreasonable. Just like the west coast trail in Canada charges a $50. fee and limits numbers of passes to walk the trail each year. I would pay the additional few Euro's as a user.

The other point, I felt was constructive, was the idea to print out informational sheets (from SJPdP) in all languages. There very well could be a communication barrier issue leading foreign Pilgrims to misunderstand warnings.

Ultreya,
Joe

West Coast Trail fees are upwards of $15o for what used to be free. There are services included such as boats across waterways where the cost used to be paid directly to the boat operator. There are now outhouses where there used to be none (and the parasites would burn for firewood if one was constructed). There are patrols to assist those who get injured (and the west coast trail injures a lot of people ... I'd put it at 2% who get evacuated) The limits in numbers mean you don't encounter tent cities anymore and the parasites that are out to wreck stuff are dissuaded from going ... In short you get something for the money tendered. On the other hand its not a wilderness hike anymore.

Last year there was upward of 200000 people on the camino (and that only includes those who got a compostela). How many died from exposure or needed to be rescued from life threatening situations? I'm aware of one death. There are but three rescue incidents listed in this thread. (0.002%? ~ not even statistically significant)How many of those incidents were avoidable by application of just a little thought? If the alternative to fees is no rescue services I'll take my chances without.

As for information sheets ... there are many sources of information that discuss the risks that are to be encountered on the camino ... If people haven't heeded the warnings contained in their guidebooks why would they consult an information sheet?

'Peregrino' doesn't mean stupid, ill-equipped, unprepared, ill informed, and inexperienced. Yes there are people on the camino who fit the description ... just like real life. Perhaps natural selection is the best way to go.

 

[obinjatoo@yahoo.com]

Think Darwin...

 

[Thomas1962]

I sense this discussion is going into making a division between the 'good and wise pilgrims' and the 'reckless, stupid pilgrims', the higher pilgrim and the lower one.

A few things:
- We are all stupid! If he exists, god didn't make mankind more clever!
- An average person lives about 31.000 days. If 200.000 people would walk the Camino only for one day, an average of 7 people would die. (Of course, the number needs some correction, the average age on the Camino is not the average of people who die, but still). Every death is a tragedy, but if there would be no people who die on the Camino, this would be a miracle of Jacob himself.
- In general, walking is a very safe way of transport, also when there are two stretches with mountains like on the frances.
- The Camino is the most easy, well facilitated, best waymarked and well discussed stretch to walk in the world. So much that hundred of thousands people of all age and condition do it every year.
- Let's not make elephants out of mosquitos. Let a few people a year be rescued. Nothing exceptional.
- I would consider getting into any vehicle which can go faster than 20 kms/hour is quite recklessness. In Spain (and in any country with different numbers), all of the 1500 traffic deaths had to be rescued, that multiplied for all the wounded. Many accidents can be seen as results of recklessness. Why now pinpointing at pilgrims who might have been looking for the edge of their abilities?

Please, let us be considerate to each other.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Let a few people a year be rescued.

From the rescue crew's point of view, venturing into a blizzard to rescue a foolish pilgrim, that may not be the best thought. Rescue is not just about the pilgrim, it is about those who are put at risk by his actions. As guests in Spain, we may want to think a bit past ourselves. Just suggesting.

 

[StuartM]

A simple sign would perhaps suffice along the route when it is unsafe to walk, then there would be no need of multiple-language handouts.

Trouble is when it comes to inferring what no sign means. Does it mean that the route is safe or that they didn't change the sign today or that the sign blew away. Not being deliberately picky, it's something that has come up in the past at work (I work in a safety obsessed sector). People tend to act in safer ways when they are actively part of the decision making.

 

[jpflavin1]

I agree 100% with Falcon.

The comments here have nothing to do with consideration for Pilgrims and more to do with those who have to come out and rescue. If someone is warned ahead of time and still chooses to walk against advice, why are they calling the emergency number. Consideration, when making poor decisions, should go beyond oneself. I am not by any means suggesting they should not be rescued.

My concern with some of the comments made here is that they will encourage those, who believe they have enough experience, to carry on into hazardous conditions.

I agree the Frances is well way-marked in normal conditions. That said, in Winter conditions way-marks and hazardous conditions are many times hidden. Local residents, with conditions knowledge are the best source of information.

We are discussing a time of year when conditions turn a normally less difficult trek into a more demanding one. To compare walking this time of year to the Frances in general is not, imo, a fair analogy.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[t2andreo]

Trouble is when it comes to inferring what no sign means. Does it mean that the route is safe or that they didn't change the sign today or that the sign blew away. Not being deliberately picky, it's something that has come up in the past at work (I work in a safety obsessed sector). People tend to act in safer ways when they are actively part of the decision making.

You would also have the issue of PROVING that a hapless peregrino actually saw a posted sign, recognized it and understood it - then opted to ignore the warning. Signing in at the beginning and being handed a printed instruction sheet in a language you can comprehend, complete with images of the signs mentioned establishes that proof. Being able to PROVE you were warned or advised, and continued to do something ill advised establishes a legal basis for levying a charge.

Note: I apply this entire rationale to search and rescue where someone has been duly advised NOT to do something or to go somewhere but chooses to ignore that reasonable warning. I DO NOT include real medical emergencies like heart attacks, broken bones and similar genuine medical emergencies that are incurred within the normal course of making a pilgrimage. Even though the search and rescue scenarios are few and far between, I continue to believe they are needless and avoidable. We all share an adult responsibility for exercising due diligence in all we do. This entire issue affect only those few who willfully disregard the advice and warnings of the "professionals" in the various Camino support associations along the way.

IMHO, establishing a fee or fund that all MUST pay into is NOT the answer. I do believe that establishing the baseline policy of charging persons where necessary is an effective deterrent, once word gets out. This warning would be prominently printed on the handouts I recommended.

The fees involved should be incurred by the user(s) incurring the fee for services provided - rescue in this case. The local citizenry, and all pilgrims should not have to bear the costs of rescuing people who fail to follow instructions or strong recommendations.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

establishes a legal basis for levying a charge

The civil law of Spain is not that nuanced. Leave in bad weather, require rescue, get a bill. Otherwise, bring a lawyer, which will cost lots more than the bill. The tourists who are gored in San Fermines likewise get a bill. I think only in the U.S. do we litigate under common law in the hope that a judge will create new precedent. In Spain, stupid is stupid, and you pay for the rescue (as of last year).

 

[t2andreo]

Okay, so the bottom line is that I concur with Falcon (I usually do). You make your bed you sleep in it, or whatever metaphor applies. So be it upon your head, and may your Guardian Angel watch over you...

 

[Thomas1962]

If there is a real sharp line in between what is reckless and what is not the world would be easy (and no cars allowed any more...)
A few times I was told that I really shouldn't do the things I wanted. One time it was at the pilgrims office at SJPdP. People there told me that you HAVE to leave as early as possible to Roncevalles, that everyone does that, and that it is dangerous to leave later. My wife and me, well trained by then after 3 weeks of walking, having walked this part before both ways, just knew out of experience that it is just not true. It depends on the condition of the person and experience. I'm happy with the volunteers of all the places on camino and with the work they do, I myself will be one as well. The office tends to give though only one advice that counts for everyone. I don't blame them, but I need to judge this advice as well.
We checked the weather, left at 13.00 and arrived at 19.00. Had several breaks in between. It was a good decision. To new people with less experience, I would advise to start early...

There have been many people taking off by snow or against any advice. Everyone estimates the risk. By far, most of the people who take a risk do fine, at rare times it does happen indeed that people had to be rescued. Although I don't know about the rescued people mentioned before, most of the times there is an accumulation of reasons why someone needs to be rescued. Not only one.

I'm sure everyone on this forum (me included) gave advice to people, which was ignored and we all also ignored advice ourselves. Both ways we do it for good reasons. Everyone can pinpoint to each other to be right. Let us not do so.
Any country can and should make own rules about charging costs for rescue and as a walker I need to be aware of that.

Still, be carefull!

 

[janwvb]

I just finished my Camino on Feb 16 and I really enjoyed walking during winter time. I have seen almost no pilgrims and the weather was (as expected) very bad. I would like to give one advice to all pilgrims considering crossing O'Cebreiro during heavy snow conditions. Make sure you get informed by the locals if it is safe to walk. There was absolutely no sign/info available during the climb and I took a wise decision to detour and stayed the night in El Laguna in a very nice auberge. Just as I reached El Laguna a snowstorm kicked in and made walking almost impossible. The weather can change in just a couple of minutes. The next day the walk from El Laguna to O' Cebreiro took a long time because of the snow with a pace of 1km per hour
Still it was a great experience, but you need to be very careful.

Many of you probably remember the rash of pilgrim rescues undertaken last year by the Navarran authorities, which led to imposition of a 1,500€ rescue charge. http://www.caminodesantiago.me/comm...harge-for-rescues-caused-by-imprudence.16849/

Similar facts this year, different place:
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...ieve-foncebadon-peregrino-japones_866289.html

Pilgrim leaves Rabanal despite warnings, has to be rescued by authorities near Foncebadon, and then continues merrily on his way by bus to Ponferrada. Be careful pilgrims!!!!

 

[alexwalker]

Good judgements come frome experience.
Experience comes from bad judgements.

 

[koilife]

Good judgments come from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgments.

So much the better when my good judgment comes by learning from someone else's bad judgment!

 

[heidi1]

Good info here. Leaving in 19 days.

 

[jeffrey r aitken]

One of the more profound lessons I learned early on my first Camino last year was that: "there are days to be smart and days to be brave." Although I have prior experience with wilderness hiking, military training and operations, as well as survival training, I learned FAST on the Camino exactly what Falcon says. NOTHING is worth risking your health or personal safety. Even calculated risks can be ill advised.

Just as an aside, I was on the Camino Frances at the same time period last year when the French woman day-hiker fell 300 meters down a non-Camino trail in the Pyrenees and was consumed completely by the Griffon Vultures within 45-minutes - before rescue services could reach her. THAT story made me exquisitely conscious of the new rule of the road I mentioned above. Without getting specific, just do a Bing or Google search on "Griffon Vulture Pyrenees hiker..."

I also believe that along with places to stay and altitude views of the Camino Frances, the starting point pilgrim offices ought to give out "rules of the road" sheets to everyone, in their own language and especially to folks who cannot possibly read the Latin alphabet we use throughout Western Europe. I am certain the translations can be done into Asian languages with nil effort or expense. At least everyone will have been duly informed.

Imagine the converse, were most of us to try to hike a trail in Thailand or India where the Sanskrit alphabet is used, or in Korea, Japan or China, where pictograph alphabets were the rule. We would be as totally perplexed as the Korean folks mentioned above. In all my travel to Asia over my career and after, I am still stymied by these alphabets. I well understand the perplexity of pilgrims from Korea, or other countries that do not share our alphabet.

I suggest it is a good idea to provide a printed list of helpful "rules" to folks who cannot handle the Roman Alphabet and a phrase-book in the several more or less standard languages along the Camino: i.e. Spanish, French, German, Italian, English, Dutch, Portuguese, etc.

There are days to be smart and days to be brave. Learn to recognize which is which and behave accordingly. If you act out of true ignorance, I submit you deserve to be rescued and not charged. However, if you were notified, as above, and failed to heed the warnings, then I maintain you should be charged.

Being made to "sign in" at the starting pilgrim office might be one way to enforce this. They already collect all manner of information now for statistical purposes. Perhaps noting the native language we read and write in, along with our signature, and perhaps our passport numbers would be useful. This "pilgrim register" would enable the rescue services to know more about who is out there.

With respect but are you going to contribute to the huge costs incurred by the owners of paper,ink,printer. Each individual must do due diligence on there part ahead of time,And use there gray matter wisely....

 

[koilife]

Each individual must do due diligence on there part ahead of time,And use there gray matter wisely....

That is true enough as a general principle, but it's not absolute and other factors must be considered. For instance, the number of Korean speakers with Camino experience pales compared to the number of English speakers, and there is almost certainly a massive comparative gap in the number and quality of resources available for their due diligence. Then, unless they have a reasonable fluency with English, French, or Spanish when they arrive in France, no amount of gray matter will overcome a language barrier. As more and more make pilgrimage, their own Camino culture will grow the depth and breadth of native language resources available for due diligence, but it still won't solve the language gaps they face after they arrive in Europe.

If there is a system in place to help provide native or regional language guidance in the interest of pilgrim safety and reduce the expenses of rescue, then I think it's worth it, and I for one won't object to a nominal cost in the process.

At risk of waxing philosophic, yes, we are created with intelligence and reason, and we bear the responsibility to exercise our free will in conformity to them (although many don't or won't). But, as humans we are also created as fundamentally insufficient on our own and the very structure and survival of civilization demands that we also consider the common good along with the individual good. Part of that may include some incremental costs born by some for the welfare of others. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't have small numbers of volunteers (thousands) making this route possible for the hordes who make pilgrimage every year (hundreds of thousands).

Put another way, I would have been up a mountain without a path if the locals in SJPdP didn't mark the trail for me because they argued instead that I should do my own due diligence and use my gray matter instead of relying on their yellow arrows.

 

[dougfitz]

Don't take the responsibilities of others on your shoulders.
If people go looking for lost pilgrims in foul weather it is their choice.

In general the rescue organisations love it. They get to use their training, rush about being important, lecture the unfortunate, go for a beer with their mates afterwards. They have a whale of a time. Advising caution spoils their fun.

Get yourselves out there.

While I agree with the conclusion, I don't agree with the line of thinking that led there. Get out certainly, but do so without unnecessarily endangering others, including rescue and emergency services. They may volunteer, but that is no reason to treat them with the cynicism evident here.

 

[StuartM]

In general the rescue organisations love it. They get to use their training, rush about being important, lecture the unfortunate, go for a beer with their mates afterwards. They have a whale of a time. Advising caution spoils their fun.

I was a rescue volunteer. Yep, there is an element of enjoyment, it can be a rush. But apart from that, your post is absolute rubbish.

There's no "fun" in rescuing someone in serious trouble. One of the worst experiences in my life was doing a search for a body many years ago. It is an absolutely horrible feeling. The using your skills part is satisfying but ultimately you know there is some poor sod at the end of that trail of crumbs.

I've met a lot of people in the rescue services and I cant think of one that ever treated a casualty with anything but humility. Making themselves feel important, lecturing, not something I ever saw happen. The only people I ever saw do that were the police, they had a tendency to be self-important despite lacking knowledge but usually they'd have the good sense to step back (though not always). The rescue and paramedic services were totally at the other end of the scale.

Rescue volunteers do it to genuinely help, not for the fun of it. In the UK the RAF and RN have had a big involvement in rescue, they have no choice, they go where they are pointed. On the sea, the RNLI (a rescue charity) have lost a hell of a lot of crewmembers in awful conditions. I doubt fun enters into it.

You're way off the bat.

 

[SabsP]

Finisterre, let me tell you: there is absolutely no thrill in participating in rescue operations. And I only came in afterwards when the active operation was done and the psychological part started. Like Stuart stated it made me more humble.

 

[Annie Little]

Mmmmm based on alll discussions above …. I should cancel my Frances Camino… certainly should not go through the pyrenees where I am in danger of getting devoured by vultures at one wrong step ...

 

[Asel]

It's good to know that there is s possibility of snow even in May, I'm heading out on my trek on the cf in mid April and I will be more prepared after reading this thread. Thank you for the info

 

[SYates]

Buen Camino and the most important thing you need to bear in mind is asking about the current weather/way situation the evening before at the pilgrims office in Saint Jean, SY

 

[newfydog]

I have been involved with ski patrol for years, and my training spills over into many emergency situations, traffic accidents, rock climbing incidents, heart attacks etc.. Yes, it is fulfilling.

I can tell you that the bad ones haunt me for a long time. I was almost killed in an avalanche, tumbling 500 meters trying to hang onto an eight year old kid. I still have nightmares about that one.

Just last week I was out delivering Christmas packages to friends. I came upon a man who was beaten and barely breathing. I managed his airway until the ambulance came, and went home depressed and covered with blood. Whale of a time.

I won't get into the recovery of the dead ones.

If you find our professionalism lacking, perhaps it is because we are volunteers. We spend hours training and working in difficult situations for free.

 

[Kanga]

There are a couple of old posts (July) in this thread that were quite inflamatory. I have deleted them and edited the latest posts to remove reference to those posts. Let sleeping dogs lie!

 

[SYates]

There are a couple of old posts (July) in this thread that were quite inflamatory. I have deleted them and edited the latest posts to remove reference to those posts. Let sleeping dogs lie!

I will also remove my reference to that post. Buen Camino y Buenas Noches para los perros tumbados, SY

 

[Al the optimist]

May the actions of the authorities to reduce the risk this winter prove effective. I pray they are.

 

[Travelite]

They should begin making those pilgrims who ignore the warnings pay for their rescue!

What are the chances of it snowing in September

 

[Deleted member 3000]

What are the chances of it snowing in September

Zero