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Spiritual or religious - simple definition for a simple man?

JohnMcM

Veteran Member
Time of past OR future Camino
Some, and with luck, some more.
Hello,
I'm interested to know how you would define the difference between a spiritual or a religious experience on the Camino.

My reason for asking? Simple really, I can't put my finger on why I feel so strongly I need to take myself on this journey. I don't think it's simply to take a long walk or to be tested physically and mentally; I've had that all my life. Nether do I believe it's a longing to meet and make new friends; that happens every time I speak to or help a stranger.

I'm wrestling with this thought - "I know where I'll be starting from (StJPP) and I know where I'm going (Finnistere) but I don't really understand how I will know where the journey is taking me, or upon completion where it has taken me.

I've read lots of material including the thoughts of people on this forum and asked many questions of others, some of whom have been very certain in their answers although most have been contradictory.

What are your views and experiences?

Thanks in anticipation of helping me answer a very personally searching question.
 
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The best answer I have seen to this type of question comes from the poet/philosopher Rilke, who wrote a letter in 1903 answering a friend's similar question thusly:

"Here I feel that no human being anywhere can answer for you those questions and feelings that deep within them have a life of their own; for even the best err in words when they are meant to mean most delicate and almost inexpressible things . . . so before all beginning, and I want to beg you, as much as I can, dear sir, to be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves like locked rooms and like books that are written in a very foreign tongue. Do not now seek the answers, which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer."
 
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Your heading asks one question - Definition of Spiritual and Religious, and your post asks another. As I understand your post, you want to know the force that is pulling you towards Santiago and Finisterre.

First, Spiritual and Religious:
Religious - An action , experience, or motivation that is related in some way to a particular faith, be it Christian, Muslim, Jew,...
Spiritual - An action , experience or motivation that is metaphysical and about the spirit world, not of a particular faith tradition. Supernatural...

As for the yearning in your heart, that you don't understand... It is common among pilgrims. The closest I came to having it expressed is in the poem "Ithaca":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n3n2Ox4Yfk


Ithaka

When you set out for Ithaka
ask that your way be long,
full of adventure, full of instruction.
The Laistrygonians and the Cyclops,
angry Poseidon - do not fear them:
such as these you will never find
as long as your thought is lofty, as long as a rare
emotion touch your spirit and your body.
The Laistrygonians and the Cyclops,
angry Poseidon - you will not meet them
unless you carry them in your soul,
unless your soul raise them up before you.

Ask that your way be long.
At many a Summer dawn to enter
with what gratitude, what joy -
ports seen for the first time;
to stop at Phoenician trading centres,
and to buy good merchandise,
mother of pearl and coral, amber and ebony,
and sensuous perfumes of every kind,
sensuous perfumes as lavishly as you can;
to visit many Egyptian cities,
to gather stores of knowledge from the learned.

Have Ithaka always in your mind.
Your arrival there is what you are destined for.
But don't in the least hurry the journey.
Better it last for years,
so that when you reach the island you are old,
rich with all you have gained on the way,
not expecting Ithaka to give you wealth.
Ithaka gave you a splendid journey.
Without her you would not have set out.
She hasn't anything else to give you.

And if you find her poor, Ithaka hasn't deceived you.
So wise you have become, of such experience,
that already you'll have understood what these Ithakas mean.


Constantine P. Cavafy
 
This is a curious one -- because while the distinction is extremely simple, the two things being distinguished are extraordinarily complex.

To keep things simple (though these definitions would break down very quickly on any serious analysis) :

A Religion is an organisation of like-minded worshippers, engaging in various activities organised around the commonality of their beliefs.

A Spirituality is any mystical sense of either transcendental or immanent direct connection between the soul or spirit and either the presence of a sublimated reality or manifestatioons of a higher (or different) plane of existence.

All religions include a Spirituality, but not every Spirituality is religious.

Camino Spirituality very frequently involves the presence of a sublimated reality.

And given that the Pilgrim's office is an office of the Catholic Cathedral of Santiago, the religion in question is Catholic by default, though this actually doesn't matter that much at all, religiously.

Each pilgrim will, of course, make his or her declarations to the Pilgrim's Office according to their own conscience --- just my take on this.
 
Hello John,

My question to you is, are you spiritual or religious or both? I believe the calling of the Camino on your heart is a Spiritual one. I believe this because this is my experience and my belief.

The best thing you can do for yourself is to start walking, the Camino will reveal itself to you accordingly. It may be the most powerful Spiritual/Religious journey of your life but most definitely it will be more than just a long walk.

I start my 1st Camino in September.

Buen Camino,
Angela
 
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A religous experience would be one that brings you to feel closer to God.

A spiritual experience would be one that makes you grow as a person.

Some would say the experience is not mutually exclusive.

I like the Hitchhiker Hikers Guide to the Galaxy. In the story a computer was asked to find The Answer to the Question of the Meaning of Life the Universe and Everything and came up with '42'. In binary that is 101010. It means the computer that was asked to answer The Question is flip flopping or stuck in a loop.

For some questions there is no logical answer.
 
There are no easy answers, especially in this increasingly secular world of ours. Churches are being transformed into museums or tourist attractions, attendance is down all over Europe, and clergy are increasingly non-European. The Danish television series and Mikael Bertelsen attracted thousands of traditionally Protestant Scandinavians to the Camino, Hap Kerkeling went before Bertelsen in Germany as well as passing the word along to the LGBT community. We have all met Japanese pilgrims, Buddhists from the sub-continent, and Jews walking beside very observant very religious people of the Catholic faith. The Camino then has become transcendental, traditional concepts of religion and spirituality are shaken and often replaced by a personal interpretation of each. We all think we understand the reasoning before we begin our pilgrimage but the experience of the Camino, the meeting with like souls sharing similar goals, and the prolonged encounter with one's own self or if you must your soul, often transforms this reasoning into something quite different. Not magic but something inherent and moving in the experience itself, something beyond traditional explanations.
 
Hi John,
Along the way, just going into Najara, you will encounter a poem on a wall in Spanish and German. Some time ago someone posted on this Forum concerning this. I posted my translation. It might help to answer your question. They say you don't choose the Camino; the Camino chooses you. You are chosen. Just go...
Tracy

FROM MY ANSWER ON PREVIOUS THREAD (cf):
Quote TS
"I have always loved this poem. It was there on my first Camino in 1999 but I believe it had been there for long before that. At that time it was in Spanish and German. I translated it to include it in Pilgrimage to Heresy. Alex reads it to Miranda.
Here is my translation: it may not be very accurate but it sure is nicer than the Google one!"

"Dust, mud, sun and rain,
is the Way of Saint James;
thousands of pilgrims and more than a thousand years.
Pilgrim, who calls you? What dark force brings you here?
It's not the Way of the Stars, nor the grand cathedrals.
Neither is it the courage of Navarra,
or the wine of the people of La Rioja.
It's not the seafood of Galicia;
it's not the countryside of Castilla.
Pilgrim, who calls you?
What mysterious force attracts you?
It is not the people of the way or their rural customs.
Nor is it their history and culture.
It isn't the cockerel of la Calzada,
Gaudi's palace,
nor the castle in Ponferrada.
Everything you see in passing is a joy;
and the voice which calls me,
makes me feel much deeper.
The force which pulls me, attracts me,
I cannot explain it.
Only he above knows why.
Eugenio Gariibay
Amigos Camino Santiago (Najara)
 
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Wow! What a thoughtful set of responses. Thank you everyone.

Zen Perigrino- I'll be patient and let the answer, if there is one for me, come to me.

Pieces- So few words with so much meaning to me.

Skillsaw- I'll look forward to finding that wisdom mentioned.

Jabbapapa- My conscience will indeed guide me.

Born to walk alone- I'll let that revelation in when it comes knocking on my door. (Does September feel a long way away?)

Whariwharangl- that loop has very familiar feel to it.

Scruffy1- I wonder what that something will be.

Priscillian- Really like that poem. The line "The force which pulls me, attracts me, I cannot explain it". Exactly describes what's happening to me.

mspath (Margaret)- thanks for your PM and the link to your thoughts "Thankful, respectful and humble, but still curious with an eager heart". Those things I will be.

Many thanks again. :lol:
Burn Camino
 
John, no one knows. All we know is that we are called in some way and cannot resist that call. Is it hard-wired because we spent so long being a migratory species? or is it what the religious (I include myself here) see as a call from God?
Or a combination of the two?

I don't know who wrote this sentence but it resonates strongly with me - although one can replace 'Christian' with something like 'seeker' ...

"There is a monk, a nun, a solitary at the heart of all Christians. All are called to flee the world, to dwell in the silence of desert, to dwell with God alone."

Two minds John - the inner real mind knows what is going on and doesn't need an explanation, the outer mind, the chattering mind, wants, needs, certainty and will gnaw at this bone until it goes quite crazy ... and it will try to stop you going - listen to the almost silent inner :wink:

Buen Camino!!
 
whariwharangi said:
A religious experience would be one that brings you to feel closer to God.

A spiritual experience would be one that makes you grow as a person.

mmmmmbwwwwwah !! I'd disagree more strongly than this if this were a non-Camino forum !!! :) :arrow:

Instead : buen camino, whariwharangi !!!
 
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JabbaPappa,
I acknowledge you wished whariwharangi Buen Camino. However, I asked for the thoughts of others and whariwharangi was like you good enough to tell me his/hers. I'm deeply saddened that you should feel the need to apparently mock his/her post.

Live well, live long my friend. Buen Camino.
John



whariwharangi wrote:
A religious experience would be one that brings you to feel closer to God.

A spiritual experience would be one that makes you grow as a person.


mmmmmbwwwwwah !! I'd disagree more strongly than this if this were a non-Camino forum !!!

Instead : buen camino, whariwharangi !!!
JabbaPapa
80-100 posts


Posts: 80
Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 11:21
Camino(s) past & future: Logroño - Compostela 1993 ; Paris - Compostela 1994 ; Monaco - Rome 2000 ; Monaco - Lourdes - Compostela 2005
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JohnMcM said:
I'm deeply saddened that you should feel the need to apparently mock his/her post.

??? I did not.

My own personal opinions on the question would simply be off-topic, and my buen camino is as 100% honest and friendly as can be.

It's a difficult question, but this is a Camino forum, not a specifically religious or spiritual one -- I have no more desire to provide my own opinions on these questions in here than I could possibly have with any fellow peregrinos on the meseta. :)

I'm simply refraining from providing a complex answer to a request for a simple definition. C'est pas la peine de chercher midi à quatorze heures ...

Sus Eia !!! :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:
 
JabbaPappa,
Ah! The difficulties of e-mail eh? No tone, no inflection, just the plain old written word.

Now I can understand what you meant.

Thanks for putting me right. :)
 
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Hi John,

Just wondering how you feel about these questions now. I know the Camino did not bring what I thought it would bring me, but it gave me just what I needed and much more. I am not a religious person, but I do know that the Camino is much more than just a long walk.
 
Spirituality exists within, but not exclusively within religion which tends to be a codeification of beliefs
put simply religion is the bus and spirituality is the passenger, but also the reason for the journey, then again you can always walk
 
Such an interesting post John the wonders of the camino unfold with each pilgrim's thoughts as they are openly expressed with difference but raw honesty wonderful.
 
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Simple answer: If the need you feel to walk the Camino comes from within you, then it is spiritual. If the need to walk the Camino comes from without you, it can be either religious (i.e. to satisfy some mandatory or voluntary requirement -- or offering -- of your particular belief system) or secular (i.e. to check off an item on your bucket list or prove something to yourself or others). For many of us who have walked the Camino, it may have been a combination of any of those reasons. It sounds to me, JohnMcM, that your primary reason is spiritual.
 
I believe that the Camino is both religious and spiritual at the same time. Every pilgrim has their own individual journey on the Camino. I believe no journey is the same. My experience was both religious and spiritual.
The journey on the Camino will teach you something, show you something, and make you feel something that you haven't felt before. However, you have to be open to the journey or experience. The people that live in the villages along the Camino are an addition to the experience. The are truly wonderful and they are there to help you.

There are many people that walk the Camino for the hike it seems. A lot of people say that they walked the Camino in 30 days or 20 days, etc. They talk about having walked 30, 40 or 50 kil per day. They talk about how fast they went, but not about what they learned, or the people they met along the way, or anything about the towns they went through.
Your journey to and from the Camino, i believe, Starts and ends at home. When you get back home your experience lingers.
If at the end of your journey, you haven't learned anything from the Camino experience, in my opinion, you were not paying attention.
Buen Camino
 
Reading all these answers I'm left with the idea that there is a lack of knowledge between what "Spiritual" and "Religious" means. Religion is much more than rules and dogmas, Spirituality is much more less that transcendence. I guess this comes from the false dichotomy between religion and spirituality our culture has created as of late. The thing is...You can not be spiritual but not religious or religious but not spiritual. These two human experiences complement and feed each other. If f you think you have one but not the other you have neither.

"Viva cristo Rey!!"
DHS
 
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Maybe if you check the Religioso box for a Compostela, you are religious, and if you check religioso/cultural, you are spiritual.
 
I believe that the Camino is both religious and spiritual at the same time. Every pilgrim has their own individual journey on the Camino. I believe no journey is the same. My experience was both religious and spiritual.
The journey on the Camino will teach you something, show you something, and make you feel something that you haven't felt before. However, you have to be open to the journey or experience. The people that live in the villages along the Camino are an addition to the experience. The are truly wonderful and they are there to help you.

There are many people that walk the Camino for the hike it seems. A lot of people say that they walked the Camino in 30 days or 20 days, etc. They talk about having walked 30, 40 or 50 kil per day. They talk about how fast they went, but not about what they learned, or the people they met along the way, or anything about the towns they went through.
Your journey to and from the Camino, i believe, Starts and ends at home. When you get back home your experience lingers.
If at the end of your journey, you haven't learned anything from the Camino experience, in my opinion, you were not paying attention.
Buen Camino

Please be careful not to judge, however. Some people are just very private about matters of the heart and spirit.

I am one of those people. I will happily chat on this board and to other casual acquaintances about gear and distance/rate walked and weather and sights seen and physical hardships & successes..... but I will only share my internal motivations, inspirations, growth & challenges, joys & sorrows with my very small inner circle.

Just because another peregrino only discusses distance walked with you, and not lessons learned along the way, does NOT mean they were not paying attention.


Reading all these answers I'm left with the idea that there is a lack of knowledge between what "Spiritual" and "Religious" means. Religion is much more than rules and dogmas, Spirituality is much more less that transcendence. I guess this comes from the false dichotomy between religion and spirituality our culture has created as of late. The thing is...You can not be spiritual but not religious or religious but not spiritual. These two human experiences complement and feed each other. If you think you if you think you have one but not the other you have neither.

"Viva cristo Rey!!"
DHS

As a mystical atheist, I strongly disagree!
 
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Please be careful not to judge, however. Some people are just very private about matters of the heart and spirit.

I am one of those people. I will happily chat on this board and to other casual acquaintances about gear and distance/rate walked and weather and sights seen and physical hardships & successes..... but I will only share my internal motivations, inspirations, growth & challenges, joys & sorrows with my very small inner circle.

Just because another peregrino only discusses distance walked with you, and not lessons learned along the way, does NOT mean they were not paying attention.




As a mystical atheist, I strongly disagree!

I believe that my journey was my own. Who am I to say that your journey was less valid than mine just because of your beliefs. I believe that a person has a right to believe what ever is in their heart. I realize that our beliefs may not be the same and that's ok.
My whole point is that sometimes you need to slow down, take a deep breath, just enjoy the beauty around you, and be open to the experience. If it sounded too judgmental, or to be judging light conversations between people, then that was not my point or intention and I hardly apologize...
 
Hi John,

Just wondering how you feel about these questions now. I know the Camino did not bring what I thought it would bring me, but it gave me just what I needed and much more. I am not a religious person, but I do know that the Camino is much more than just a long walk.

Hello Whistling,

I've read everyone's replies and comments here. I think your question will allow me to speak personally and answer or respond everyone at the same time as giving you a reply.

We (you and I) both may have experienced something similar.

I now have within me treasured memories gifted to me by others. I also have within me a burning desire relive those memories if I could.

I now have within me conversations with people who truly listened, understood and trusted me which I often recall and reflect upon.

I now have within me visions of moments in time I wish I had bottled so I may be able unscrew the bottle-top and drink in the physical essence of those moments time and time again, and yet again.

I now have within me feelings and emotions that will last my lifetime which were created from special time spent with very special people.

Like you I don't consider myself religious, however I give thanks to God, whoever or whatever he, she or it may be to others, for what my Camino brought me and continues to give me.
 
The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
I totally agree with you John.
And for me I think it is not really important whether the call of the Camino was spiritual, religious or something else. The Camino called me in many ways, and I feel very greatful I was able to listen to that call. It changed my life in a special and beautiful way, learned a lot about myself and about others, met so many wonderful people, been in churches that drove me to tears. Is this all a coincidence, or faith, or something else? The only thing I know is that I am very thankful of what the Camino brought and still is bringing me. I wish everyone could have an experience like this in his or her life once. I'm sure the world would be a better place then.
 
maybe some questions don't really have answers

and maybe, if they did, the answer would come when it came

and maybe, if it came, it would not really be all that important
Amazing answer
 
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"The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

John 3:8
 
Sometimes there is a large difference and sometimes woven together as a pattern. I often think it is the way we hear and listen.

While at the same time...
“The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.”
― Mark Twain
 
As a hospital chaplain I deal each day with patients who grapple with religious and spiritual crises, often in the face of death. The one thing I have learned is that in such crises, keep things simple. John, you have a spiritual calling. Follow it. Don't worry about definitions.
 
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