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Text carved pavement as you enter Santiago Old City

Sara M

New Member
Time of past OR future Camino
Camino Norte May (2016)
72 wonderful days!
Camino Portugues (2017) Porto to Santiago
Dear Peregrinos/as

Ah-72 wonderful days on the Camino del Norte, but I have no photos of the text carved in the pavement as you cross the road into Santiago Old Town.

Can anyone help me out with a photo or the text? It's along the lines that (the concept) of Europe was forged on the roads leading to Santiago.

2 months back home and still not settled. Camino Portugese next year...

Looking forward to hearing from you Sara
 
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No photo, but it sounds like a quote often attributed (but not proven) to Goethe

"Europa ist aus der Pilgerschaft geboren, und das Christentum ist seine Muttersprache."

"Europe was born out of the pilgrimage (to Santiago) and Christianity is its mother tongue."

The true source of this quote puzzles Camino academics since many years ;-)

Buen Camino, SY
 
"Europe was born out of the pilgrimage (to Santiago) and Christianity is its mother tongue."
The true source of this quote puzzles Camino academics since many years ;-)
Tsk, tsk, tsk ;););), you got the translation nearly right. If he said it at all, I think he referred to pilgrimage as such, or to Rome and Italy, but not specifically to Santiago.
 
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If he said it at all ;-) but yes, this quote I have only ever heard in relation to Santiago, not to other pilgrimages. If you think about it, the other locations don't make much sense "Europe born out of the pilgrimage to Rome"? SY

PS Also in other German versions I know the word Jakobsweg(e) / Camino(s) de Santiago is used ...
 
Thank the calligrapher in me - couldn't resist taking photos of the typeface as everyone walked past focused on their goal.

IMG_6304.jpg
 
Here is what I have!
 

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The quotes look really good on the pavement and I am delighted that photos have been retrieved and posted.

@SYates: The author of this popular quote will probably remain a mystery. It can be traced back as far as 1992, see here .

Edited for PS: And even back to 31 October 1991: "L’Europe, disait Goethe, est née en pèlerinage et le christianisme est sa langue maternelle", speech by John Paul II given to European experts taking part in a presynodal symposium on "Christianism and culture in Europe" (apparently in French).
 
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... @SYates: The author of this popular quote will probably remain a mystery. It can be traced back as far as 1992, see here .

Edited for PS: And even back to 31 October 1991: "L’Europe, disait Goethe, est née en pèlerinage et le christianisme est sa langue maternelle", speech by John Paul II given to European experts taking part in a presynodal symposium on "Christianism and culture in Europe" (apparently in French).

Bearing in mind the HUGE amount of written and published words (novels, essays, letters, you name it) Goethe achieved during his long life time this is a safe bet. Buen Camino, SY
 
It's along the lines that (the concept) of Europe was forged on the roads leading to Santiago.
As far as I understand it, it's not so much the concept of Europe - other than geographical - but rather what is commonly called "a European consciousness". I think it is a relative modern idea. And even today it is more wishful thinking than reality.
 
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I have this photo, with the German in the foreground (since if he said it, he presumably said it in German):20160930_133204.jpg
 
No photo, but it sounds like a quote often attributed (but not proven) to Goethe

"Europa ist aus der Pilgerschaft geboren, und das Christentum ist seine Muttersprache."

"Europe was born out of the pilgrimage (to Santiago) and Christianity is its mother tongue."

The true source of this quote puzzles Camino academics since many years ;-)

Buen Camino, SY
Thanks so much....I've been distracted with other things and have finally got back to more important CAMINO matters! I'm applying for an arts residency so very helpful. Thanks. Sara
 
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As far as I understand it, it's not so much the concept of Europe - other than geographical - but rather what is commonly called "a European consciousness". I think it is a relative modern idea. And even today it is more wishful thinking than reality.
Yes, sadly (to my eyes) the lack of European consciousness partly lead to the English BREXIT decision...which is why I was interested in finding out more about the quotation. It struck me as I was walking over the words as I entered Santiago Old Town...they seemed gut wrenchingly-apt.
 
Yes, sadly (to my eyes) the lack of European consciousness partly lead to the English BREXIT decision...which is why I was interested in finding out more about the quotation. It struck me as I was walking over the words as I entered Santiago Old Town...they seemed gut wrenchingly-apt.
One idea of the European Cultural Routes, of which the Camino de Santiago is one such route, is that "they act as channels for intercultural dialogue and promote a better knowledge and understanding of European history". Sadly, the promotion of a better knowledge and understanding of current European history is excluded from the permitted topics on this forum. ;)

BTW, I have now tracked the first claim of Europe being made on pilgrimage roads ("Europa se hizo peregrinando") back to a Spanish writer, Alvaro Cunqueiro, and to the year 1948, and it may well end there. It is modern idea, I think. But if someone does locate such a quote - or the idea - somewhere in Goethe's works or in the writings of one of his contemporaries where it is attributed to J-W, please do report it here.
 
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Thanks very much Kathar1na
Cunquiero rings a bell - there is a signature on the carved quotation but I couldn't remember who.

Yes, perhaps the more Medieval concept was Christendom. Anyway the words struck a chord as I took the last few steps with my fellow peregrinos/as after a wonderful adventure on the del Norte.
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
Yes, perhaps the more Medieval concept was Christendom. Anyway the words struck a chord as I took the last few steps with my fellow peregrinos/as after a wonderful adventure on the del Norte.
I noticed that you spent 72 days on the Camino del Norte (which I don't know). It must have been wonderful to have all this time to soak it all up. :)

Not many Europeans are posting on this forum ... and certainly not many from the Continent. I walked through France and it made many aspects of our shared culture and our shared past - the good and the horrid - come alive in a way that you don't get from books and also less so if you drive past quickly. Gothic churches in the North of France where it all started and not only the accomplished ones but also the less perfect ones, the Romanesque art of the Saintogne, the forest of Compiègne with the train waggon where the Great War ended and the ill-fated peace treaty was signed, a small church where Joan of Arc went to mass a few days before Orléans was taken, a beautiful small Romanesque church that has been used for centuries as a stable by a local farmer as a result of the French Revolution, a special kind of tree that was a commonly known marker for a Protestant home and evoked memories of the religious wars, the many memorials and street/square names referring to WWII and also to Algeria, physical remains of St Martin in Tours, the fact that Bordeaux was English for a long time, the wines and vinyards around Bordeaux, the traces of Roman occupation and trade, the place where Charles Martel fought a battle which may not have been as important and decisive as we learnt at school ... I'm rambling but it did bring home how much we share despite of all our differences, and, as you alluded to, how much we have been shaped by Christendom in the Middle Ages (where the centre was Rome and not Santiago ;)).

PS: I forgot about the many European flags (the blue thing with the golden stars) I saw while walking through France. I've not noticed this elsewhere and certainly not in England. :)
 
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this quote I have only ever heard in relation to Santiago, not to other pilgrimages. If you think about it, the other locations don't make much sense "Europe born out of the pilgrimage to Rome"?
I'm surprised that you see it like this. Didn't all roads lead to Rome as they said in the Middle Ages? I think the image of the 4 roads from France (only!) to Santiago are so imprinted on our retinas, thanks to the PR for the revival of the roads to Santiago, that we don't see much else. Here's an image of the main roads for the pilgrimage to Rome, isn't that food for thought? Besides, Goethe travelled twice to Rome and never to Santiago ;).

ToRome.jpg
 
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How many pilgrims went to Rome and how many to Santiago? SY
 
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How many pilgrims went to Rome and how many to Santiago?
That's easy to answer: an unknown number of pilgrims went to Rome and an unknown number of pilgrims went to Santiago in the Middle Ages and an unknown number went to other major shrines in Europe on long distance travel, not to mention minor shrines and regional and local pilgrimage travel. There are no reliable estimates for the whole period of time.
 
... Besides, Goethe travelled twice to Rome and never to Santiago ;).

Yes, but he also lived in Weimar, in the corridor of the Via Regia, and was at one time of his life, Wegebaumeister (Responsible for road constructions) plus he was a protestant, so perhaps less inclined to favour a pilgrimage to Rome.

Also, for those that have joined the thread recently, the quote is commonly attributed to Goethe, but as far as I know nobody has ever come up with an exact source ;-)

Buen Camino, SY
 
Yes, but he also lived in Weimar, in the corridor of the Via Regia, and was at one time of his life, Wegebaumeister (Responsible for road constructions) plus he was a protestant, so perhaps less inclined to favour a pilgrimage to Rome.
Is that a typo? He did travel to Rome. I've actually not read that much of his works but there's always Google. He liked walking/hiking/nature as we all know and he traveled quite a bit but he reports that he met pilgrims up close for the first time ever at age 37 in Italy, so late 1700s.

They were two German men, already over 50, without any foreign language skills (like most pilgrims in the Middle Ages, btw) so he acted as interpreter for them. They had visited the shrine of the 3 Kings in Cologne (a major pilgrimage site), had then crossed through Germany and were on their way to Rome. After that, one of them planned to return home and the other one planned to go to Compostela. Another indication for me of the importance of Rome and the ways leading to Rome. ;)
 
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Is that a typo? He did travel to Rome. ...

No, it isn't a typo, but perhaps a misunderstanding between two non-native English speakers ;-) Of course Goethe traveled to Rome! But I wrote "he was a protestant, so perhaps less inclined to favour a pilgrimage to Rome." What I meant is that as a Protestant of that era it is unlikely that he would favour/promote a religious pilgrimage to Rome.

Buen Camino, SY
 
No, it isn't a typo
OK, no I didn't make this connection.
yes, this quote I have only ever heard in relation to Santiago, not to other pilgrimages
Have a look at https://albertosolana.wordpress.com/2014/07/15/10-goethe-y-la-peregrinacion-como-origen-de-europa/ : Todo indica que en un momento dado de la contemporaneidad la frase fue adaptada a las intereses de la peregrinación compostelana con un éxito innegable - "All this indicates that, at a given moment in contemporary times, this phrase was adapted to the interests of the Compostela pilgrimage, with an undeniable success."
 
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Yes, but we still don't have the original source what Goethe actually said - if he said it all. SY
 
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I think your best bet would be to look at the story of the 'Hanged young man and the roasted chicken' I think that one has been widely and wildly researched as it appears in so many place, not only in Santo Domingo de la Calzada. There are representations of the miracle allover Europe and also some other places that claim this/a similar miracle has taken place there. Happy researching! SY
 
story of the 'Hanged young man and the roasted chicken'
I have Denise Péricard-Méa's Dictionnaire de Saint Jacques et Compostelle. It contains an article on how the story evolved over time, with the place of the event starting with Toulouse in 1090, the chicken being added a few hundred years later and the whole story being eventually transported to Santo Domingo :). It also contains a map of the places with a representation of this hugely popular miracle for the time 1300s-1600s. Interestingly, she says, these representations are practically non-existant in Spain and it would be futile to trace any paths on the basis of these places. They are a manifestation of the wide-spread cult of St James all over Europe (see http://www.saint-jacques.info/pendu_dependu_05.htm) . I think this is another proof that the importance of the road to Santiago is a bit exaggerated sometimes.

Pendu-dependu_carteEurope_siecles.jpg
 
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Yes! And I thought I was asking an innocent sort of question, but of course not and that's why those words in the pavement resonated to a grieving inglesa. Perhaps what's more powerful about the Camino as pilgrimage is that in Christ we are one body.... that's who glues us together...
 
Thank you :).

I enjoy threads that give food for thought, make me research stuff and provide me with new insights. Hopefully, it's a match where the end result is love-love. ;):)
Absolutely it must be a love-love outcome!

I (and most certainly many of our fellow pilgrims in the forum) love all sorts of historic discussions pilgrimage-related!

:D
 
I must say the more I think about it the more I like the idea of walking there and back. There are so many local pilgrimage sites everywhere from the time of the "age of pilgrimage", it's amazing.

Here is a clip from an article in the Tablet back in 1999. It does give some idea of the importance of Pilgrimage from England before the Reformation.

"Certainly, in the Middle Ages, before the rapacious hand of Henry VIII fell on the monasteries of England, and wasted their substance on futile wars in France, the maritime transport of pilgrims was big business by the standards of the time. Licences were required for vessels carrying pilgrims, and in the 123 years between 1361 and 1484 no fewer than 232 were issued in 22 ports, the leaders being Dartmouth, Fowey, Plymouth and Bristol, followed by Penzance, Weymouth and Poole."

Blessings
Tio Tel
 
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I see this is a very old thread on the words carved into the pavement as you walk into Santiago on the Frances. NOT going to argue about who wrote it, I'm wondering if anyone has an exact location (Google pin, or whatthreewords....). I'm walking part of the Portuguese in May, and want to revisit the site so I can take a picture of all the translations - it's for a book I'm writing (fiction) and it will be a meaningful moment for one of my characters.
 
Hi Rubia,

The adress is 2 Rua de San Pedro.

It is easy to find it. You only have to follow the pilgrims in the opposite direction.

2 Rua de San Pedro.png
 
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