The prayer used at Cruz de Ferro?

[BryanandJoan]

Joan and I have looked at several forums plus read blogs and watched hours of 'U'tubes and cannot for the life of us find this prayer. But we have seen several bits and it looks very appropriate.

 

[Bradypus]

I think this or something very similar may be the one you have in mind:
"Lord, may this stone, a symbol of our efforts on pilgrimage that I lay at the foot of the Cross of the Savior, one day be the balance in favor of our good deeds when the deeds of our lives are judged. Let it be so. Amen."

 

[whariwharangi]

There is no such prayer.

Cruz de Ferro is a cairn that marks the height of the camino and in particular the height of the pass between Astorga and Ponferrada.

Its not a holy shrine ... its a pile of gravel and detritus left by other pilgrims; an embarrassment and a sin against the earth.

 

[BryanandJoan]

Yes that seems about right.
Thank you so much, Bradypus.
B&J

 

[Bradypus]

Its not a holy shrine ... its a pile of gravel and detritus left by other pilgrims; an embarrassment and a sin against the earth.

Aesthetically I agree. Leaves me stone-cold, or slightly warm in irritation. But "holy" is a slippery concept. Are places intrinsically and immutably either sacred or secular, or are they consecrated by prayer and belief? Does holiness have to be tasteful? Apologies to the mods if my musing here is straying out of bounds.

 

[koilife]

Joan and I have looked at several forums plus read blogs and watched hours of 'U'tubes and cannot for the life of us find this prayer. But we have seen several bits and it looks very appropriate.

Perhaps you might simply and spontaneously pray whatever is on your heart at the time.

Assuming that you are Christian, perhaps you might also close with an Our Father and trust that God will receive your prayer as a fragrant offering to heaven, even if it is made on a pile of rubble and detritus left by other equally sincere pilgrims.

 

[Peregrinopaul]

Its not a holy shrine ... its a pile of gravel and detritus left by other pilgrims; an embarrassment and a sin against the earth.

You could be wrong about that Whariwharangi. Reading the statistics from last year it's a fair bet that around 50000 pilgrims, walking with a religious pilgrimage motive, paused at Cruz de Ferro. Could be that plenty of them, like me, had something to pray about. Over the years, there must have been millions of prayers muttered privately or otherwise at this particular "pile". Did you notice that there is a cross on top of the post?
In my book, the place qualifies.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

You could be wrong about that Whariwharangi. Reading the statistics from last year it's a fair bet that around 50000 pilgrims, walking with a religious pilgrimage motive, paused at Cruz de Ferro. Could be that plenty of them, like me, had something to pray about. Over the years, there must have been millions of prayers muttered privately or otherwise at this particular "pile". Did you notice that there is a cross on top of the post?
In my book, the place qualifies.

Stats form the pilgrim office combine religious with spiritual reasons for walking the Camino. Would be nice to,have these separated, although the cathedral may not like what it finds out.

 

[Peregrinopaul]

Stats form the pilgrim office combine religious with spiritual reasons for walking the Camino. Would be nice to,have these separated, although the cathedral may not like what it finds out.

I looked at their stats for last year, and they DO make a distinction between "religioso, 38%", and "religioso, y otros 54%". I can't recall specifically what is on the form when you tick the boxes. Perhaps the 38% does indeed include those who might prefer to say that they have a "spiritual" motive, and are not provide with that sole choice. Nevertheless, whatever the actual numbers, Cruz de Ferro, surely has a religious significance to many pilgrims, pile or no.

 

[koilife]

Stats form the pilgrim office combine religious with spiritual reasons for walking the Camino. Would be nice to,have these separated, although the cathedral may not like what it finds out.

I doubt the pilgrim's office would find anything in differentiated stats for religious versus spiritual that would surprise it (or give it the least bit of insecurity). It's no secret that many who walk the Camino for "spiritual" reasons have little regard for the Church (although the Communion lines at the Pilgrim's Mass tell a different story).

 

[Peregrinopaul]

I doubt the pilgrim's office would find anything in differentiated stats for religious versus spiritual that would surprise it (or give it the least bit of insecurity). It's no secret that many who walk the Camino for "spiritual" reasons have little regard for the Church (although the Communion lines at the Pilgrim's Mass tell a different story).

Koilife, we may be straying into territory that has been much discussed on the forum in the past.
I agree with you that the majority of pigrims probably have no pious religious motive, compared to, say, pilgrims to Lourdes. And if I'm honest, though I am a practising Catholic, neither do I. I do the Camino because ....I guess I'm addicted to the experience. My original comment was merely pointing out that Cruz de Ferro does evoke religious emotions in many of us of Christian heritage. I would not describe myself as a particularly prayerful person, but that place did prompt me to place my stone, brought from my garden in Australia, and to say a prayer for those who were in my mind and heart on the journey to reach there. Obviously I am with BrianandJoan and many others on this. I was reacting to the suggestion earlier in this thread that there was nothing holy, (whatever that means), about the place.

 

[whariwharangi]

You could be wrong about that Whariwharangi. Reading the statistics from last year it's a fair bet that around 50000 pilgrims, walking with a religious pilgrimage motive, paused at Cruz de Ferro. Could be that plenty of them, like me, had something to pray about. Over the years, there must have been millions of prayers muttered privately or otherwise at this particular "pile". Did you notice that there is a cross on top of the post?
In my book, the place qualifies.

Yeah, I could be wrong about that.

It could be that a lot had something to pray about too ... for some its a miracle they made it up the hill ... a great excuse for kneeling down and catching ones breath ... but otherwise ... there are lots of places to kneel and pray on the camino. Too I would think that for some its the whole point of making a camino.

And yes I did notice there is a cross on top of the post. I would point out that there are few places on the camino with enough room to swing a cat without hitting a cross or two.

More likely its one of those silly things that became a tradition. I used to add rocks to the cairn on any hill I walked up ... (and the stone always came from within chucking distance of the pile).

I usually spend time on top of a hill to enjoy the view ... to rest on my laurels as it were. These are moments that are clear places for thinking ... because often it would be the first time where one needn't be concerned about the placement of ones feet. So I can see that someone might be moved to prayer ...

But it would be silly to suggest there is a 'special' prayer that goes with hucking a stone onto the heap at cruz de ferro. Perhaps there should be a 'secret' ceremony too (I'd tell you but its a secret so I can't)

I would guess a standard 'Lord's Prayer' ought to suffice if one feels so moved.

 

[Kathar1na]

Does any one know since when this prayer exists? I have found the German, French and Spanish version on the web. It is used in the movie "The Way" and it is quoted in a very popular camino guidebook written by Cordula Rabe. I learnt from Cordula Rabe that she thinks she copied it from inside the chapel near the Cruz de Ferro. This chapel was built in 1982. Before that, there was no chapel or other building on this mountain top.

I find that historically (Middle Ages) the prayer does not make much sense at this place. I understand the role this place has gained in recent times and I'm not debating it. If somebody knows anything about the origin of the prayer I would be really grateful.

 

[Peregrinopaul]

Yeah, I could be wrong about that.

... for some its a miracle they made it up the hill ... a great excuse for kneeling down and catching ones breath ... but otherwise ... there are lots of places to kneel and pray on the camino. Too I would think that for some its the whole point of making a camino.

Fair enough, Whariwharangi!

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I looked at their stats for last year, and they DO make a distinction between "religioso, 38%", and "religioso, y otros 54%". I can't recall specifically what is on the form when you tick the boxes. Perhaps the 38% does indeed include those who might prefer to say that they have a "spiritual" motive, and are not provide with that sole choice. Nevertheless, whatever the actual numbers, Cruz de Ferro, surely has a religious significance to many pilgrims, pile or no.

Ah, the Cruz de Ferro and as @Kathar1na explaines just a few days tje stones from Santiago being dropped there "by ignorance". If I understood people confused the terminology "out of the area of the village of Competellina" with " f
from Compostela" and were actually due to "ignorance" bringing stones back to the Cruz from Santiago?

 

[grayland]

Gently, amigos.

The forum rules do not allow discussion of religion. It also does not allow denigration of the religion of others including mockery.

The OP asked a specific question....if you can assist with an thoughtful answer.. it would be welcome. Mocking his question is not welcome.

Thanks for understanding.

 

[mspath]

For further discussion of the history and present use both pro and con of the Cruz de Ferro see this earlier Forum thread.

 

[Peregrinopaul]

I think this or something very similar may be the one you have in mind:
"Lord, may this stone, a symbol of our efforts on pilgrimage that I lay at the foot of the Cross of the Savior, one day be the balance in favor of our good deeds when the deeds of our lives are judged. Let it be so. Amen."

Isn't this prayer directly taken from the script of "The Way"? Maybe it does have an older origin, I don't know.

 

[whariwharangi]

I just looked up the 'swing a cat' idiom.

Apparently, mid 1980's someone started changing the usage to 'swing a dead cat'. I can only guess this results from some misguided sense of political correctness.

I forget the reason I added this ... it has some bearing on the discussion but I can't now make the connection.

 

[whariwharangi]

Gently, amigos.

The forum rules do not allow discussion of religion. It also does not allow denigration of the religion of others including mockery.

The OP asked a specific question....if you can assist with an thoughtful answer.. it would be welcome. Mocking his question is not welcome.

Thanks for understanding.

My apologies ... no offense intended.

 

[MTtoCamino]

The Cruz De Fero is a place many of us discover things that are personal to each of us. I hope all find something from the experience.

 

[Kathar1na]

Isn't this prayer directly taken from the script of "The Way"? Maybe it does have an older origin, I don't know.

I've spent some time on the web to find sources that are older than 1986 but have not yet found them. If anyone knows more please let me know. At the moment I think the origin is a modern Spanish prayer, perhaps inspired by the recently created romeria (local pilgrimage) to the chapel and the Spanish traditions connected with San Andrés de Teixido but this is speculation on my part. The romeria is organised by the Centro Galicia en Ponferrada.

The prayer has gained popularity through modern media, such as guide books, movies, and in particular blogs. Type the words cruz de ferro prayer into Google and you get plenty of hits for the text in English.

 

[PeterD1951]

I've visited a number of 'thin' places in the UK. Iona springs to mind (but not Lindisfarne) and a theological college in Derbyshire called Cliff College. St Davids in S. Wales is like that too. Hoping to find some equally thin Spanish places.

 

[vicky mc]

I just looked up the 'swing a cat' idiom.

Apparently, mid 1980's someone started changing the usage to 'swing a dead cat'. I can only guess this results from some misguided sense of political correctness.

I forget the reason I added this ... it has some bearing on the discussion but I can't now make the connection.

Hi there. 'To swing a cat'. Comes from the old pirate days when they used the 'cat o nine tails' for punishment, if they could swing the whip then there was enough room. Buen camino I'm starting in May 26 from SJPDP. I think nerves are setting in !!!!

 

[Peregrinopaul]

OK, I get that, but ..... where are we with this?

 

[vicky mc]

OK, I get that, but ..... where are we with this?

Hahaha. I have no idea

 

[whariwharangi]

OK, I get that, but ..... where are we with this?

Swinging with at least 9 dead cats. Out of luck I guess ... and not a prayer.

 

[Bradypus]

I've visited a number of 'thin' places in the UK. Iona springs to mind (but not Lindisfarne) and a theological college in Derbyshire called Cliff College. St Davids in S. Wales is like that too. Hoping to find some equally thin Spanish places.

Way back in another century I spent part of one summer as the Abbey guide on Iona. Now I live near St Davids. I understand what you mean by 'thin'. I am wondering why you so specifically exclude Lindisfarne from the list?

 

[angus55morrison]

Joan and I have looked at several forums plus read blogs and watched hours of 'U'tubes and cannot for the life of us find this prayer. But we have seen several bits and it looks very appropriate.

Hi Angus here , what I did to get the words to the prayer was put subtitles up while watching the Way. As far as what reaching this pile of gravel it felt like it meant something to me ,possibly another marker on the journey to Santiago or if it's not for you,as the song says " walk on bye".

 

[Kathar1na]

Here is a Spanish version of the prayer associated with the Cruz de Ferro/Hierro. Perhaps one of the few residents of Spain who are on this forum can shed some light on its origin?

Señor, que esta piedra, símbolo del esfuerzo de mi peregrinación, que arrojo al pie de la Cruz salvadora, sea la que, llegado el instante en que se juzguen los actos de mi vida, sirva para inclinar la balanza a favor de mis buenas obras. Así sea.

 

[Pablo Mac]

I've enjoyed the good fortune to have twice rested and prayed at Cruz De Ferro , both of those times I've been incredibly moved (almost to tears) by the peace of the place. Even when shrouded in mist and rain the wind whispers of the millions of feet that have passed before and of those yet to come .I honestly believe that if each stone there represents a prayer or a memory of a lost loved one ,then that place cannot but have been ingrained with a portion of the grace we all receive when we acknowledge our creator. I don't think the words we utter really matter all that much, Christian or not , its whats in our hearts, our good intentions and desires for others and ourselves that really count.

I do agree with previous posters about the rubbish that accumulates though . It can be a bit of an eyesore .

Pablo

 

[MTtoCamino]

Here is a Spanish version of the prayer associated with the Cruz de Ferro/Hierro. Perhaps one of the few residents of Spain who are on this forum can shed some light on its origin?

Señor, que esta piedra, símbolo del esfuerzo de mi peregrinación, que arrojo al pie de la Cruz salvadora, sea la que, llegado el instante en que se juzguen los actos de mi vida, sirva para inclinar la balanza a favor de mis buenas obras. Así sea.

Lord, that this stone, symbol of the effort of my pilgrimage, which threw the foot of the Cross rescuer, is that, come the moment when the acts of my life judge, serve to tilt the balance in favor of my good works . So be it.

Google translate

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Lord, that this stone, symbol of the effort of my pilgrimage, which threw the foot of the Cross rescuer, is that, come the moment when the acts of my life judge, serve to tilt the balance in favor of my good works . So be it.

Google translate

Not bad for Google!
Human translate : Lord, please let this stone, symbol of my efforts on my pilgrimage, that I throw at the foot of the Saving Cross, be what, at the time when my actions in life are juged, serves to move the scale infavour of my good deeds.

Time to start carrying much larger stones!

 

[Kathar1na]

this stone, [...], which threw the foot of the Cross rescuer

.

Google Search does a much better job than Google Translate: the English version of the prayer is already quoted at the top of this thread in message #2.

This prayer has been hugely popularised by Camino guidebooks and by the movie "The Way", and in their wake, by blogs on the Camino. The English, French, German, Italian, Dutch, and Spanish versions can easily be found on the internet. I don't know which language version is the original. Without a doubt, the prayer dates as far back as the movie "The Way".

Many people believe that they follow a medieval tradition yet it is modern.

 

[PeterD1951]

Way back in another century I spent part of one summer as the Abbey guide on Iona. Now I live near St Davids. I understand what you mean by 'thin'. I am wondering why you so specifically exclude Lindisfarne from the list?

Too commercialised. I was really dissappointed. The North East is a beautiful part of the world and the views from Lindisfarne were spectacular, but the place itself did nothing for me. Perhaps it was me?

 

[tpmchugh]

There is no such prayer.

Cruz de Ferro is a cairn that marks the height of the camino and in particular the height of the pass between Astorga and Ponferrada.

Its not a holy shrine ... its a pile of gravel and detritus left by other pilgrims; an embarrassment and a sin against the earth.

I dont know if its 'holy' or not. I found it hard to pray with the holiday atmosphere around it. Coach tours, motorhomes and yelling cyclists standing on the heap waving their cycles in the air while a queue formed to do the same. It was more like a queue for a roller coaster at DisneyWorld. I ate my lunch, left a stone I had carried for a friend then headed off down the path where I prayed as I walked. My prayers turned to foul language as said cyclists came down the path at high speed screaming and yelling and forcing me off the path which as you all know is just a couple of feet away from a road they could have used. Then on top of everything, I started feeling bad for losing my temper. It was not the spiritual experience for me that others claim. I walked on and never looked back

 

[MTtoCamino]

Not bad for Google!
Human translate : Lord, please let this stone, symbol of my efforts on my pilgrimage, that I throw at the foot of the Saving Cross, be what, at the time when my actions in life are juged, serves to move the scale infavour of my good deeds.

Time to start carrying much larger stones!

Very nice!

 

[MTtoCamino]

I dont know if its 'holy' or not. I found it hard to pray with the holiday atmosphere around it. Coach tours, motorhomes and yelling cyclists standing on the heap waving their cycles in the air while a queue formed to do the same. It was more like a queue for a roller coaster at DisneyWorld. I ate my lunch, left a stone I had carried for a friend then headed off down the path where I prayed as I walked. My prayers turned to foul language as said cyclists came down the path at high speed screaming and yelling and forcing me off the path which as you all know is just a couple of feet away from a road they could have used. Then on top of everything, I started feeling bad for losing my temper. It was not the spiritual experience for me that others claim. I walked on and never looked back

At the site, I agree yet the night before & walking that day & ever since it was if walking in the light again. It just shows how personal that journey is.

 

[tpmchugh]

At the site, I agree yet the night before & walking that day & ever since it was if walking in the light again. It just shows how personal that journey is.

Exactly how I felt, you just said it better. An Anglican priest who was also a US Army chaplain taught me about St Ignatius and his breath prayer and that was more meaningful than my experience at the Cruz. I still use the technique at home

 

[Peregrinopaul]

Exactly how I felt, you just said it better. An Anglican priest who was also a US Army chaplain taught me about St Ignatius and his breath prayer and that was more meaningful than my experience at the Cruz. I still use the technique at home

I don't know how common your experience of Cruz has been for other pilgrims. Your vivid description of the circus atmosphere in your previous post makes me realise how very fortunate I must have been on my 2 past encounters with that place. I would certainly have felt the same way in those circumstances, after the anticipation and sheer effort involved in reaching it. I have already selected a stone for my third visit which I fervently hope will not be ruined as yours was.

 

[nellpilgrim]

Yesterday on May's eve and today on May day ( the feast of Bealtaine) at an ancient holy site and place of pilgrimage called The City in Shrone Co Kerry a steady stream of locals (many of my relatives among them) will 'make the rounds' or 'pay the pattern' as did our parents and our parents parents before us. The 'hallowing' of this site by human devotional activity has been continuous and complex- the history and prehistory of such activities stretch back a couple of millennia involving an unknown number of deities.
Nowadays it's a Marian shrine and place of pilgrimage though the mother aspect was ever present as The City sits strategically in the centre of the geological decolletage between two mountains called 'The Paps'-in Irish An Dá Chích Anann- The breasts of the Goddess Anu (Anu was a popular gal the Danube river is also called after her) but ancient as that dedication to Anu is she's just one of a chain of the divine tenants of this particular site.
The City is a designated 'holy' place and it continues to be so, in large part, because the community of pilgrims-in this context local people including myself- continue to 'hallow' the site. Whether the initial choice or selection of site and/or the collation, creation or recreation of a sites sacred or ritual narrative are the result of one person or of many, or if those processes are ancient or modern are, from the point of view of believers/users of the site, not ultimately the core matter. Though it does appear that for some sacred 'authenticity' in this context seems to correlate exclusively to old/ancient sites and rituals and sacred 'inauthenticity' correlates to modern or, perish the thought, new sacred sites or rituals.
The original designation of a site as 'holy', it's creation myth if you like, is important-to a greater or lesser extent. A holy site and the rituals associated with it (however 'tasteful' or 'tatty') evolve in response to the needs of the community it serves over a long or indeed relatively short timespan. It also seems a holy site can, as in the case of the Cruz de Ferro and I suspect many other places, in a tatty, democratic, shambolically cumulative process be created (or recognised, selected, discovered, rediscovered etc)
Thus, as ever, pilgrims make it hallow by the hallowing.

 

[SYates]

I think this or something very similar may be the one you have in mind:
"Lord, may this stone, a symbol of our efforts on pilgrimage that I lay at the foot of the Cross of the Savior, one day be the balance in favor of our good deeds when the deeds of our lives are judged. Let it be so. Amen."

I think this prayer was written for the movie The Way? I found an old (2004) post here http://eng.ultreia.info/2004/02/cross-of-iron.html about a religious ritual around the Cruz de Ferro and this prayer isn't mentioned. As others have suggested, the right prayer is simply the one that comes from your heart. Buen Camino, SY

 

[Kathar1na]

A holy site and the rituals associated with it (however 'tasteful' or 'tatty') evolve in response to the needs of the community it serves over a long or indeed relatively short timespan. It also seems a holy site can, as in the case of the Cruz de Ferro and I suspect many other places, in a tatty, democratic, shambolically cumulative process be created (or recognised, selected, discovered, rediscovered etc)
Thus, as ever, pilgrims make it hallow by the hallowing.

So do you know when the Cruz de Ferro became a holy site that should be regarded as such by everyone? Because even now, it does not seem to be common knowledge and it certainly wasn't a few decades ago. Not everyone has seen "The Way" and not everyone frequents this forum. If I would go by just two of the very popular guidebooks I have - one from England, the other one from France - I would not have the faintest idea of the emotions and spirituality and religiosity that some people associate with the Cruz de Ferro.

 

[Alasdair Kay]

I find this conversation fascinating as a theologian and Priest. I think the rise in the last 30 years of the creating of shrines very interesting, especially at the site of accidents, in the apparel and tattoos of people, what people now place in graveyards, and even a resurgence of religious artifacts outside of a specifically Roman Catholic culture, where it has always been common. This phenomena speaks of faith moving away from a very textual focus, (usually held by Protestants) to a more symbolic and nuanced grouping of conceptions which is very postmodern.

Theologically I would differ greatly from this prayer as I don't think that my effort can in any way add to the substitutionary work of Christ for me on the Cross. I believe in a future judgement where faith in Christ alone will be my justification, as it is he who has paid the price for my sins. I could walk a thousand caminos and it would never atone for my sins. So I probably won't pray this prayer but as with many sites I will stop to pray and lay down any burdens there...I make no judgment of others.....

However the Cruz de Ferro is a pre Christian site if my research is correct... I find it interesting, in my study of Celtic Christianity, Cruz de Ferro as with Lindisfarne, Iona, St David's and so many other places such as the Skelligs in Ireland, Celtic Christians founded their Holy "thin places" on top of existing Holy sites ... This is why in many English church yards we have ancient Yew trees and very often Altars in ancient churches will be placed over the sites of pagan sacrifice. Most Celtic crosses carry some form of Earth religion symbols on their bases and the Celtic cross shows the evolution of faith that is taking place in people lives around them. The crosses on Iona are fascinating in this regard.

I start my pilgrimage on Wednesday this week and will be carrying a stone I picked up on St Columba's beach on Iona to lay at the foot of the Cross as a symbol of thanksgiving for my calling to the priesthood 25 years ago. I hope it will indeed be a "thin place" ... however my deeper prayer is that through this Camino I will become a "thin place" where Christ in me is the hope of glory... Buen Camino et Pax et Bonum

 

[susanawee]

Gently, amigos.

The forum rules do not allow discussion of religion. It also does not allow denigration of the religion of others including mockery.

The OP asked a specific question....if you can assist with an thoughtful answer.. it would be welcome. Mocking his question is not welcome.

Thanks for understanding.

Thankyou for this Grayland....I fully agree.

 

[MTtoCamino]

I find this conversation fascinating as a theologian and Priest. I think the rise in the last 30 years of the creating of shrines very interesting, especially at the site of accidents, in the apparel and tattoos of people, what people now place in graveyards, and even a resurgence of religious artifacts outside of a specifically Roman Catholic culture, where it has always been common. This phenomena speaks of faith moving away from a very textual focus, (usually held by Protestants) to a more symbolic and nuanced grouping of conceptions which is very postmodern.

Theologically I would differ greatly from this prayer as I don't think that my effort can in any way add to the substitutionary work of Christ for me on the Cross. I believe in a future judgement where faith in Christ alone will be my justification, as it is he who has paid the price for my sins. I could walk a thousand caminos and it would never atone for my sins. So I probably won't pray this prayer but as with many sites I will stop to pray and lay down any burdens there...I make no judgment of others.....

However the Cruz de Ferro is a pre Christian site if my research is correct... I find it interesting, in my study of Celtic Christianity, Cruz de Ferro as with Lindisfarne, Iona, St David's and so many other places such as the Skelligs in Ireland, Celtic Christians founded their Holy "thin places" on top of existing Holy sites ... This is why in many English church yards we have ancient Yew trees and very often Altars in ancient churches will be placed over the sites of pagan sacrifice. Most Celtic crosses carry some form of Earth religion symbols on their bases and the Celtic cross shows the evolution of faith that is taking place in people lives around them. The crosses on Iona are fascinating in this regard.

I start my pilgrimage on Wednesday this week and will be carrying a stone I picked up on St Columba's beach on Iona to lay at the foot of the Cross as a symbol of thanksgiving for my calling to the priesthood 25 years ago. I hope it will indeed be a "thin place" ... however my deeper prayer is that through this Camino I will become a "thin place" where Christ in me is the hope of glory... Buen Camino et Pax et Bonum

The Holy Spirit seems to find us when appropriate, & when our hearts are open. So many faiths walk the Camino I believe there is a reason for that. The walk is a very good education in faith.

 

[Kathar1na]

I fully agree.

Rule #2 in full: No discussions on religion, bull fights, sports and politics. These topics "always" end in a fight, so let's not go there. It is true that the Camino and religion is closely related, so some leeway will be given.

One of the most enriching threads that I have ever read on this forum is the one entitled "Communion on Camino: Comments and an Observation". I did not participate and it did not answer a question I may have had - I have found my answer for myself a long time ago and I did not feel the need to share it - but the comments and observations in that thread really increased my ecumenical understanding (for lack of a better expression).

The belief that there is an age old tradition of bringing a stone from home and that there is a specific Cruz de Ferro prayer, a belief that is being shaped and cemented by modern narratives - is that a religious belief? I cannot see this. I understand the modern need for such rituals and their popularity.

I am grateful for comments #5 (@Bradypus) and #44 (@Alasdair Kay, in particular the first two paragraphs). I've tried once or twice to formulate a question on this subject (basically, how does the "other side" see this after the Reformation and the Counter Reformation) but I deleted it without sending it as I seem to have a knack of ending up in closed threads.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I think this prayer was written for the movie The Way? I found an old (2004) post here http://eng.ultreia.info/2004/02/cross-of-iron.html about a religious ritual around the Cruz de Ferro and this prayer isn't mentioned. As others have suggested, the right prayer is simply the one that comes from your heart. Buen Camino, SY

Leon Felipe has written beautiful poetry and this one has been put to music by Paco Ibanez. But the meaning of this peoem is completely different from the one in the intial "prayer" in this thread, or what some guide books say the stones left at the Cruz are: a symbol of sins and baggage to be left behind at the Cruz. Ibanez writes about humility, about the importance of what is small and seemingly insignificant.

Interesting how a movie, a fictional feelgood movie, has had the power to lead so many to believe that things that are simply the figment of the movie studio's imagination are actually historical. The power of mass media.

To @Kathar1na 's point of what is said in some guidebooks about the Cruz, this is what the Pili Pala guide says: " This massive, conical pile of stones marks the pass over Minte Irago and the border betwwen La Maragateria and El Birzo. Across Europe, Celts traditionally laid stones at peaks and passes like this one to calm the mountain gods and ask for safe passage through the mountains. Romans in the area continued the tradition, calling stones murias, after Mercury, their god for travellers.

Adding a stone to the pile at the Cruz de Ferro is an important Camino ritual; many pilgrims bring stones from home to place here, and others pick one up along the way.... The iron cross on top is a latter addition, placed here to make this pagan tradition more palatable to the Catholic Church. More recent additions are a giant sundial, where your body makes the shadown that tells time of day, and a fountain in the woods behind the picnic area."

 

[MTtoCamino]

The very nice thing about this thread is the fact the OP can see that there are many that walk this with many opinions & many have a different experience when it relates to this area of the Camino.
Each of us determine if it is a pilgrimage, or an amazing vacation.

 

[nellpilgrim]

So do you know when the Cruz de Ferro became a holy site that should be regarded as such by everyone? Because even now, it does not seem to be common knowledge and it certainly wasn't a few decades ago. Not everyone has seen "The Way" and not everyone frequents this forum. If I would go by just two of the very popular guidebooks I have - one from England, the other one from France - I would not have the faintest idea of the emotions and spirituality and religiosity that some people associate with the Cruz de Ferro.

No is the simple answer! I think I'd seen photo's of the Cruz de Ferro and read about it in John Brierley's guide book when I first walked in 2009. The practice-old or new- didn't seem at all strange or odd to me, but then leaving stones on structures, gravestones, Saints 'beds' (or Leacht in Irish), altars, adding them to cairns or using them to mark/trace crosses on larger stones or structures are a regular part of pilgrimage practice at local and national pilgrimage sites in Ireland. Bringing a stone back from someones grave or leaving a stone on top of a gravestone are also common practices, at least in the part of Kerry I'm from, so though I felt under no obligation that I 'should' partake in that practice I simply did. Bringing my little bit of quartz from the summit of Djouce, the Wicklow mountain where I did a little (a very little) pre camino training, felt right and leaving it at the Cruz in the freezing sleet and fog of late April with a quick (it was blooming freezing) heartfelt prayer or two also felt right. And though it wasn't, for me, the most spiritually significant act of that journey it certainly was a spiritual one.

 

[nellpilgrim]

[QUOTE="
However the Cruz de Ferro is a pre Christian site if my research is correct... I find it interesting, in my study of Celtic Christianity, Cruz de Ferro as with Lindisfarne, Iona, St David's and so many other places such as the Skelligs in Ireland, Celtic Christians founded their Holy "thin places" on top of existing Holy sites ………….
I start my pilgrimage on Wednesday this week and will be carrying a stone I picked up on St Columba's beach on Iona to lay at the foot of the Cross as a symbol of thanksgiving for my calling to the priesthood 25 years ago. I hope it will indeed be a "thin place" ... however my deeper prayer is that through this Camino I will become a "thin place" where Christ in me is the hope of glory... Buen Camino et Pax et Bonum[/QUOTE]

Hello Alasdair,
What a powerful idea that we might find 'a thin place' in another or, even more challenging, that we might- at least strive-to become such a nexus ourselves!

Though there is plenty of evidence of continuity of use of ritual sites in Ireland including many of our mountain and hilltop shrines and oratories there is no hint in folklore, language, local practice or from the exhaustive recent archaeological excavations and paleoenvironmental studies (1986-2010) of Skellig Michael itself being used as a religious site in Pre Christian times (or indeed of having been used at all until the establishment of the 1st phase of the monastic settlement)
And though the Skelligs, when viewed from the coastline from Valencia to Caherdaniel-and if viewed from higher ground from even further afield, may with their distinctive profiles dominating the the western horizon possibly have played a part as a focus for pre christian rituals or have been utilised as part of some form of orientation/alignment processes for pre christian sites in the area it remains a supposition.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Its not a holy shrine ... its a pile of gravel and detritus left by other pilgrims; an embarrassment and a sin against the earth.

That is what it "has become" - but from what I have read that was not its original purpose. The cross was erected (I believe) as a beacon for those completing the Camino. But I do agree about the garbage that is being left there. So my small prayer - please only leave a small stone; no used bras; not half empty bottle of wine; no empty cigarette packets; oh and PLEASE do not tie something around the post supporting the Cross. Buen Camino

 

[Kathar1na]

leaving stones on structures, gravestones, Saints 'beds' (or Leacht in Irish), altars, adding them to cairns or using them to mark/trace crosses on larger stones or structures are a regular part of pilgrimage practice at local and national pilgrimage sites in Ireland. Bringing a stone back from someones grave or leaving a stone on top of a gravestone are also common practices, at least in the part of Kerry I'm from

Thank you for this reply, very interesting. I knew about the tradition of leaving a stone on a grave only from Jewish cemeteries.

I had never noticed stones piled at the foot of crosses in the fields or along roads before I crossed into Spain on the Camino Frances. I see that you are walking or planning to walk from Nuremberg where you may see some of the wayside shrines (stone columns) typical for the area of Franconia. They date from the middle ages, so are not as ancient as in Ireland. Looking at their photos, I realise that I perceive the stone heaps around crosses (I'm not talking about the Cruz de Ferro which is in a different league - not so much cross but an amilladorio) seen along the Camino Frances as disrespectful. I'm not saying that it is, just that I perceive it like this, so I will have to work on this. I still don't know whether it is a local habit. I noticed from photos that these stone heaps sometimes do get cleared away from crosses at the entry into a village, and at the entry into Foncebadon (I think) there is a noticeboard at the foot of the cross asking people in several languages not to leave any stones there. Again, no criticism, just an observation. I also learnt the word "psychopomp" while reading up on the subject ... this is an educational thread.

 

[Bradypus]

... this is an educational thread.
View attachment 25631

In the educational spirit - and because as a qualified but non-practicing schoolteacher I am by nature a pompous pedant - I congratulate you on the clarity of your writing and vocabulary. One suggestion: I think you may have intended to say "wayside" (near the road) rather than "wayward" (deviant, delinquent, liable to misbehaviour) .

 

[Kathar1na]

In the educational spirit - and because as a qualified but non-practicing schoolteacher I am by nature a pompous pedant - I congratulate you on the clarity of your writing and vocabulary. One suggestion: I think you may have intended to say "wayside" (near the road) rather than "wayward" (deviant, delinquent, liable to misbehaviour) .

. Thank you, indeed they are well-behaved shrines and I have now corrected my mistake.

 

[nellpilgrim]

Thank you for this reply, very interesting. I knew about the tradition of leaving a stone on a grave only from Jewish cemeteries………..I see that you are walking or planning to walk from Nuremberg where you may see some of the wayside shrines (stone columns) typical for the area of Franconia. They date from the middle ages, so are not as ancient as in Ireland…….... I also learnt the word "psychopomp" while reading up on the subject ... this is an educational thread.

View attachment 25631

Hi Katharina,
I loved walking through Franconia and often stopped (very happily) to pray at the wayside shrines. I wondered then if they hadn't replaced some older markers or shrines. Thank you for sharing the photographs they're a lot sharper than mine and definitely look better without a battered rucksack and pair of walking poles leaning up against them (note to self!)
Skellig Mor, the larger of the Skellig rocks, is dedicated to St Michael the Archangel who's also know as Michael the Psychopompos. It's a wonderful site to visit and I go out to 'the rock' at least once a year.

 

[Botaivica]

From Ultreia:

Lord Jesus, evil is not the one that has the last word because You are here, high above everything in this eternal Calvary of the world’s suffering. Evil is crucified on your cross, and because of that, saved and redeemed. Save me, little stone that rolls through the roads of life. Take my evil and raise me up and bring me closer to you elevated by the centuries.

I think it gives the meaning of faith and sense of location.

Bota