Theft and violence by pilgrims

[Canucks]

Two separate issues:
Firstly, theft. I am astounded that pilgrims will feel it acceptable to walk into a farmers private property along the camino and pick grapes, fruit, or vegetables for themselves. Many others have noticed and commented as well. I doubt those same people walk into a little store or a super mercado along the way and just take what they want....there is NO difference.

Secondly, violence. We walked up the steep hill to the deserted golf resort ghost town (ciruana?) and heard shouting and a dog barking. There were a group of 8 or 10 pilgrims gathered with a couple of them screaming, punching, and hitting with walking poles.
Someone took a picture of a lady with her cute dog, complete with a bandaged foot and backpack, like the rest of us. She got angry and wanted him to delete the picture or pay her and it digressed to hitting and yelling. Weird to see on a pilgrimage!!
Needless to say, that "harshed my mellow". Walking through the hundreds of unsold condos a few minutes later just added to it.
On the positive side, Santo Domingo de la Calzada is a pretty cool little town with yet another shocking church! Size wise, I mean. Very grandiose.

 

[jstorybook]

All that just over a picture? As for the fruit in vegetables--I recall in some modern travelogues that pilgrims have mentioned picking fruit--
after asking a farmer--I wonder if it might be OK to pick up fruit that has fallen off a tree or a vine? If it is in a field or on a tree it is theft, but if it is on the ground and starting to rot?

 

[peregrina2000]

I think the EU has very clear regulations on the issue of produce growing along the camino. From what I've been told, at least, if the fruit is hanging over the public right of way, the public can eat it. So if cherry tree branches come over the camino, you can reach up and pick a few, but you can't go over to the tree and start picking. Does that sound right to the Europeans on the forum?

Of course, at this time of year, one of the most pickable delights is the delicious blackberries growing wild all along the camino. Those, I take it, are just waiting for pilgrims to eat them.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

The violence is pretty rare, and I'd lay big money the people involved were not Spaniards. Spaniards like a good shouting match, but unless you are a fighting bull, they do not resort to violence.
The theft is ongoing. Our neighbors have lost more than a row of wine grapes to passing pilgrims, who also feel free to use the vineyard as a toilet.

Pilgrims are humans. And there's always a percentage of us who never grow up.

 

[Bernard duffy]

I was astounded by the 'violence' on my recent 8 days on the Camino,people kept threatening me with kindness,comedy,help,and worst of all alcohol,shocking experience ((((

 

[Olivares]

If you ask me, most likely the Camino was there first...... really, what do you think it's going to happen if you plant fruits and vegetables close by a well-known 800 km walking trail...??? I can certainly say it is tresspassing if people pass physical boundaries (fences, etc...) to pick fruits & vegetables off trees. However, if I can stretch my hand from the Camino and pick a lemon, an orange, or a bunch of grapes, I'll probably do it. I would NOT go out of the way (Camino trail) to do it, though....

By the way, Cirueña remains one of the strangest sights I saw in the Camino. Hundreds and hundreds of unsold condos and a pristine, well-kept huge pool....spooky.

 

[LTfit]

I can only imagine how disheartened you must feel at seeing such behavior Canuck.

The law is very clear, picking fruit or vegetables from someone's private property is theft. And many Spanish maintain huertas or gardens for personal consumption. I remember asking a small shop owner this summer why we couldn't find lettuce in the local stores and she said that everyone grew their own and therefore would not be able to sell them.

Just because it is there and within reach does not give us the right to pick it (even if the law is ambiguous in certain cases). We are the visitors.
IMHO there is no room for discussion here - don't touch what is not yours! But what a nice surprise it was when a kind villager insisted that I pluck her tree full of ripe cherries and was a bit offended when I didn't want to take more!

 

[flewitheagles]

If you ask me, most likely the Camino was there first...... really, what do you think it's going to happen if you plant fruits and vegetables close by a well-known 800 km walking trail...??? I can certainly say it is tresspassing if people pass physical boundaries (fences, etc...) to pick fruits & vegetables off trees. However, if I can stretch my hand from the Camino and pick a lemon, an orange, or a bunch of grapes, I'll probably do it. I would NOT go out of the way (Camino trail) to do it, though....

By the way, Cirueña remains one of the strangest sights I saw in the Camino. Hundreds and hundreds of unsold condos and a pristine, well-kept huge pool....spooky.

I'm really surprised. I remember well that place from May 2009. I guess the 25% unemployment in Spain is really taking a toll.

 

[Canucks]

Yeah, that resort place seemed soooo out of place......spooky.

As for the fruit and veggies, this is people walking into vineyards and taking grapes off the vines....then throwing away, typically, because they aren't quite ripe. For the veggies and fruits, you know how farmers will have their plots well off the trail....well people walking 50 meters or more in to strip tomatoes or pears isn't cool no matter how long the trail has been here.

And yes, coming to blows over a picture is odd, but true. Very out of place and not seen otherwise. That's why it was so unusual. There were probably 20 peregrinos sitting watching at the little donation car at the top of the hill, as surprised as we were. All commenting on the discongruity with the pilgrimage.

 

[MendiWalker]

Seeing an act of violence by adults is always a sad thing but even more so if it´s carried out by peregrinos.

Regarding the theft of fruit & veggies........... it´s just that THEFT.

Buen Camino!

 

[reuben79]

I remember that ghost town. It was really weird walking through it, like we were in some kind of low budget horror movie or something. Everything all pristine and planned out, but almost no people and grass and weeds starting to break through the pavement. Fairly sobering moment.

As for violence, I never saw anything resembling any. The closest thing would have been some snarky comments to fellow dorm-mates regarding sleeping, or the lack thereof. I have to assume that was a pretty isolated incident. Or at least hope it was.

 

[jirit]

I think some have forgotten that we are simply guests, guests of Spain and guests of the camino.

The camino in Spain is not some free for all adventure whereby we feel entitled to this or that, simply because we believe we are pilgrims. We are pilgrims - visitors from a foreign land ( if look up the meaning of pilgrim, you will learn what is really means) and as expected we should be on our good behaviour as we would anywhere else. When we visit another person's home we do not simply wander in and help ourselves to what is lying around without first asking, do we?

Our hosts like most hosts treat their guests well and generally offer both their time and services graciously mostly without being asked to so. Our hosts include both the those we decide to stay with each night but also include everybody else we pass by.

Did the camino come before them or not? It does not matter. Every Spaniard we pass and every home we pass, we should treat them as are hosts.

But at the very least we as guests, should ask in advance if we can either have some food or take a photo, etc. That is what good guests do and than is what good hosts expect from good guests.

When we start believing we are entitled to take the fruit and vegetables, or simply snap photos of people passing us by without asking then we have some sense of entitlement that we can, that it is allowed since we are pilgrims or we are doing them some favour. Seriously do you honestly believe 1,000 pilgrims passing through some farmer's field each day, plucking the fruit of his trees is doing him a favour? Not everybody wants to be in your photo album.

There so few people in this world that have the financial capabilities to take 4-6 weeks away from work and family commitments to walk the camino. We are the lucky and privileged few and we should understand not only how lucky we are, but how we as guests owe it to our hosts to treat them with respect.

 

[MendiWalker]

I think some have forgotten that we are simply guests, guests of Spain and guests of the camino.

The camino in Spain is not some free for all adventure whereby we feel entitled to this or that, simply because we believe we are pilgrims. We are pilgrims - visitors from a foreign land ( if look up the meaning of pilgrim, you will learn what is really means) and as expected we should be on our good behaviour as we would anywhere else. When we visit another person's home we do not simply wander in and help ourselves to what is lying around without first asking, do we?

Our hosts like most hosts treat their guests well and generally offer both their time and services graciously mostly without being asked to so. Our hosts include both the those we decide to stay with each night but also include everybody else we pass by.

Did the camino come before them or not? It does not matter. Every Spaniard we pass and every home we pass, we should treat them as are hosts.

But at the very least we as guests, should ask in advance if we can either have some food or take a photo, etc. That is what good guests do and than is what good hosts expect from good guests.

When we start believing we are entitled to take the fruit and vegetables, or simply snap photos of people passing us by without asking then we have some sense of entitlement that we can, that it is allowed since we are pilgrims or we are doing them some favour. Seriously do you honestly believe 1,000 pilgrims passing through some farmer's field each day, plucking the fruit of his trees is doing him a favour? Not everybody wants to be in your photo album.

There so few people in this world that have the financial capabilities to take 4-6 weeks away from work and family commitments to walk the camino. We are the lucky and privileged few and we should understand not only how lucky we are, but how we as guests owe it to our hosts to treat them with respect.

You can say it louder but you can´t say it clearer.

Buen Camino!

 

[jpflavin1]

There is no justification for the theft (fruits/vegetables) of another persons labor. If you can take the time to roam a field for it's bounty, stop and ask to purchase.

In regards to Pilgrim violence, I am sure there are a hundred pilgrims daily helping and supporting other Pilgrims with acts of kindness and generosity. My preference would be to hear those stories versus a single act of violence.

Ciruena is an eerie place. That said, there were folks playing golf when I walked through the town and it was a very clean and maintained place for being deserted.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[Saint Mike II]

If you ask me, most likely the Camino was there first...... really, what do you think it's going to happen if you plant fruits and vegetables close by a well-known 800 km walking trail...??? I can certainly say it is tresspassing if people pass physical boundaries (fences, etc...) to pick fruits & vegetables off trees. However, if I can stretch my hand from the Camino and pick a lemon, an orange, or a bunch of grapes, I'll probably do it. I would NOT go out of the way (Camino trail) to do it, though....

By the way, Cirueña remains one of the strangest sights I saw in the Camino. Hundreds and hundreds of unsold condos and a pristine, well-kept huge pool....spooky.

Olivares - regardless of how long the Camino trail has been established, pilgrims of any description have no right to STEAL someone else's property. How would you feel if someone (a pilgrim, a villager) decided that your sleeping bag looked nice and decided to take it? I imagine you would not be impressed, well the farmers feel the same.
Try working a farm for 3, 4 or 5 years - 6 or 7 days per week, depending upon the weather to determine if you will have a crop to sell; depending more on the vagaries of the market to determine the price and then to find that a group of thieving pilgrims liked your unripe tomatoes and ripped out 5 of 6 plants and then threw most of them away because they were not ripe. There goes most of your profit.
So IMHO regardless of where the fruit is leave it alone unless you have been given permission.

 

[The Dude]

The Dude recalls a sign posted at the entrance to Tillmans ravine in Stokes State forest,
" Take nothing but photos, leave nothing but footprints "
this should apply to the Camino as much as it does to wilderness nature trails.

 

[StuartM]

I think the EU has very clear regulations on the issue of produce growing along the camino. From what I've been told, at least, if the fruit is hanging over the public right of way, the public can eat it. So if cherry tree branches come over the camino, you can reach up and pick a few, but you can't go over to the tree and start picking. Does that sound right to the Europeans on the forum?

As far as I know that's the case in the UK, same with wind fall fruit (I'm currently building up my stock of windfall apples from the church across the road to take to the local cider press). However, I don't think stuff like this comes under common EU law, I would imagine that it all depends on national law (or more likely in Spain, the law of whichever autonomous region you're in).

One thing to be aware of with commercial produce in the field is it's very often still covered in pesticides, herbicides, etc. Certain crops like corn/maize may be grown as animal feed and may not be treated in the same way as crops for human consumption. I found this out the hard way in France after stealing a few corn cobs for a barbeque... poetic justice...

Of course, at this time of year, one of the most pickable delights is the delicious blackberries growing wild all along the camino. Those, I take it, are just waiting for pilgrims to eat them.

I don't know about the legality of it but certainly here it is a huge tradition to pick fruit from the hedgerows and that seems common across Europe.

 

[stevenjarvis]

Taking produce, leaving litter and inconsiderate toilet habits must be the MOST irritating behavior by a tiny minority of pilgrims. Sadly it is this aberrant selfish behaviour that will be remembered, talked about and resented by the local residents. Those of us that care can only seek to leave a better impression.

 

[Olivares]

Well, it seems that growing up in a farm gives me a bit of a better perspective that many on this thread. My father had plenty trees planted by the side of the road and WELCOMED people to take the fruit fallen from the trees or ripe on the tree. He did not appreciated people picking up the fruit that was not ripe, nor people TRESSPASSING his fence post, but what he planted by the side of the road he shared with walkers-by. Simple as that. Maybe been the daughter of a kind, generous farmer instill in me a giving nature. Today, I live surrounded by farms and walking trails. Same thing. AS I STATED before (reading & COMPREHENSION is such a wonderful skill), it is not cool to TRESSPASS nor to go off a trail to pick somebody else's property.

I got the feeling many who so sanctimoniously express their horror to picking up ripe fruit by the side of the road are the same ones who use private property as toilets or leave garbage along the road or in other's people trash. I bet the farm owner will rather have you NOT leaving him a "present", either....

 

[naplesdon]

Ciruena is typical of many resort developments in the US and other countries. A marketing firm does a feasibility study and determines that a golf course and 1000 weekend homes is just the thing for the ready and willing buyers in nearby Madrid, Bilbao and Vitoria. Several developers take the bait and the next thing you know 4 golf courses pop-up and there are 1000's of apartments sitting unsold, it happens every 10 years in Florida like clock work. The Spanish banks were giving money away and the developers were more than happy to take it off of their hands, trust me 10 years from now you will feel like an interloper when you have to walk through this place, it will be sort of like walking on the (so-called public) beach of some exclusive resort.
Picking fruit, etc. along the Camino is stealing! Plain and simple and I liked the warning that what you eat could be covered with pesticides and other chemicals. I might say the same for those "free range" berries. I know when I use cuttings of rosemary for cooking I make sure they are from places higher than a dog can p....

 

[jstorybook]

or cats for that matter--the cats regularly mark my neighbors Rosemary shrub.

 

[peregrina2000]

Luckily there are so many blackberry bushes along the Camino del Salvador that you never have to bend down or reach up, they are all just there at eye level staring at you! Way out of range of dogs and cats. For me the hardest thing was getting the discipline to keep walking, and I usually arrived at my destination with stained hands.

 

[Mmc_56]

I remember that ghost town. It was really weird walking through it, like we were in some kind of low budget horror movie or something. Everything all pristine and planned out, but almost no people and grass and weeds starting to break through the pavement. Fairly sobering moment.

We also found this little town very eerie, was always curious to know....was it ever inhabited and then people couldn't afford to make payments and walk away, or did the units never sell ? I wonder how much they sell for now ?

 

[naplesdon]

I don't think it was a matter of not making payments and from what I understand if you are willing to pay 250k Euros for a home you can become a resident of Spain and the EU. Not a bad deal considering the way the US is headed.

 

[jirit]

I remember the same town back in 2007 prior to the financial crisis and I remember it well walking past it again in 2011 after the financial crisis.

It is one of many developer built towns that now lie empty and litter the Spanish landscape and elsewhere in the world. You will find examples in Ireland, England, China and obviously the USA.

I guess these so called towns will remain there as a reminder to others that the road to sustainable wealth and riches is not through building and selling over inflated real estate to people that can not afford it.

 

[ChuckPinoy]

Pilgrims has passed through these farmlands for many years and if this was a big issue, the farmers would have posted signs that say "keep out" or erected a fence to keep pilgrims from "stealing" their crops. Sometimes outsiders can easily judge what they see without considering culture and history. I almost had the same feeling last year until I met a 76 year old man who's completed the Camino 6x. I had the pleasure of walking with him for quite a distance through several farmland. As we walked and talked we passed through a vineyard and the man suddenly slowed down and reached over and plucked some grapes right of the vine and placed it in his mouth. As a newcomer, I looked at him funny thinking to myself - he just stole some grapes. So I asked him, "is it okay to pick grapes?" He responded... the farmers don't mind if we taste their fruit along the way, there's enough to share.

He then raised his hands and waved at someone across the field. He was proudly waving the bundle of grapes in his hands as if expressing a sign of gratitude... And what do you know, he was waving at a farmer standing by his tractor across the field inspecting his crops. So I too picked a handful of grapes and waved to the farmer thank you... The farmer gladly waved back to us with a smile and shouted Buen Camino. We both enjoyed our handful of grapes and moved on.

As a visitor, I try not to impose my own ways and culture into someone else's backyard. While to an outsider this may be considered stealing, to the locals it's their way of honoring the pilgrims...

As far as the violence. Not acceptable. I left for Morocco after my short walk close to Burgos this year. It doesn't matter which country your in, if people ask not to be photographed, we should respect it. Going through Berber villages in Morocco the women didn't want to be photographed so we all put our cameras away and enjoyed the hike. In Marakech however, picture taking is encouraged, but be prepared to pay cash.

The bottom line is, no matter what country I'm in, I try not to overthink things. I try and enjoy the food, their culture, the beauty of their country and most of all the people.

I say enjoy the walk, go with the flow and stay positive. ;-)

Buen Camino

Two separate issues:
Firstly, theft. I am astounded that pilgrims will feel it acceptable to walk into a farmers private property along the camino and pick grapes, fruit, or vegetables for themselves. Many others have noticed and commented as well. I doubt those same people walk into a little store or a super mercado along the way and just take what they want....there is NO difference.

Secondly, violence. We walked up the steep hill to the deserted golf resort ghost town (ciruana?) and heard shouting and a dog barking. There were a group of 8 or 10 pilgrims gathered with a couple of them screaming, punching, and hitting with walking poles.
Someone took a picture of a lady with her cute dog, complete with a bandaged foot and backpack, like the rest of us. She got angry and wanted him to delete the picture or pay her and it digressed to hitting and yelling. Weird to see on a pilgrimage!!
Needless to say, that "harshed my mellow". Walking through the hundreds of unsold condos a few minutes later just added to it.
On the positive side, Santo Domingo de la Calzada is a pretty cool little town with yet another shocking church! Size wise, I mean. Very grandiose.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I need to grow my garden where it is. If it happens to be near the camino de santiago, does that mean I have to accept that a large percentage of my labor will vanish into the pockets and mouths of passing strangers -- most of whom can afford to buy their own fruit and veg? No.

And if my garden is near the trail, why should I have to erect signs and fences to keep these people from stealing my produce? Are they not decent, law-abiding people, on their way to honor a saint? Why should I spend my time and money "sending a signal" that I do not want to become their victim? Can´t these people police one another? Why does their desire for instant gratification become my loss?

I love the whole dreamy "the camino will provide for me" ethos. But I live in an agricultural area of the Frances, where profit margins are narrow and a few villagers look on pilgrims as "locusts."

 

[Olivares]

Loved your post ChukPinoy! My father would have been puzzled, and maybe even offended, if walkers would go by and ignore the fruit he planted to share.

 

[MendiWalker]

Why do you have to post signs? Can´t people simply respect others property?

Buen Camino!

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Loved your post ChukPinoy! My father would have been puzzled, and maybe even offended, if walkers would go by and ignore the fruit he planted to share.

Olivares, your grandfather sounds like a lovely man. My hat is off to him and his generous spirit.

 

[Thornley]

Two separate issues:
Firstly, theft. I am astounded that pilgrims will feel it acceptable to walk into a farmers private property along the camino and pick grapes, fruit, or vegetables for themselves. Many others have noticed and commented as well. I doubt those same people walk into a little store or a super mercado along the way and just take what they want....there is NO difference.

Secondly, violence. We walked up the steep hill to the deserted golf resort ghost town (ciruana?) and heard shouting and a dog barking. There were a group of 8 or 10 pilgrims gathered with a couple of them screaming, punching, and hitting with walking poles.
Someone took a picture of a lady with her cute dog, complete with a bandaged foot and backpack, like the rest of us. She got angry and wanted him to delete the picture or pay her and it digressed to hitting and yelling. Weird to see on a pilgrimage!!
Needless to say, that "harshed my mellow". Walking through the hundreds of unsold condos a few minutes later just added to it.
On the positive side, Santo Domingo de la Calzada is a pretty cool little town with yet another shocking church! Size wise, I mean. Very grandiose.

[1]
You are right about people entering others property , NOT ON

However the best meals we had on the Le Puy camino came from fruit on the rock walls and berries.
Tub of yogurt and a stolen plastic spoon from Macca's ..................... bliss
[2]
Sorry town Ciruena but the place does have a very , very nice Casa Rural [ Victoria ] for 20 e /night
[3]
Santo Domingo is a MUST...........not to be missed.
Any town that has 2 Paradores must be ok.

*******PS There are wonderful patches of blackberries on the big hill after Santiago.......they will get you to Negreira

 

[BeatriceKarjalainen]

Ciruena is spooky. I saw no one there. It was like being in a zombiemovie. I didn't see any violence during my caminos but I saw a lot of stolen corn (thrown away or just the green stuff from it), and the corn is not even grown for humans, it is for animals. Talked with locals that told me that the corn is more or less uneatable.

I actually got fruit (plums and figs) from locals when passing by and had a lot of those lovely blackberries where it was obvious that they didn't grow on someones land. I saw some signs in the big grape fields that the grapes were sprayed with "poison".

I saw some other signs saying "apples for pilgrims".

 

[newfydog]

Well, if you steal a few grapes, you are just keeping up a thousand year tradition (as would be the owner if he then fed you to his hogs)

Myself, I have often admired them, but never had to steal them. I have found them in the trail where they bounced out of the tractor, as well as just dumped on the ground, when they trim the yield to improve the final ripening to get a better wine.

 

[piogaw]

i saw pilgrims picking grapes off the vines at the courtyard in the pilgrim office.

 

[stevenjarvis]

ChuckPinoy, I greatly admire your positive outlook, however I think you're letting it get in the way of common courtesy. Full marks to the farmer you describe for his generosity and kindness of spirit, but would it not have been better for you to have asked ,or he to have offered, first ? Similarly, your suggestion that the absence of prohibitive signage can be interpreted as an open invitation, is, in my opinion, deeply flawed.

 

[dougfitz]

As far as the violence. Not acceptable. I left for Morocco after my short walk close to Burgos this year. It doesn't matter which country your in, if people ask not to be photographed, we should respect it. Going through Berber villages in Morocco the women didn't want to be photographed so we all put our cameras away and enjoyed the hike. In Marakech however, picture taking is encouraged, but be prepared to pay cash.

I am not sure how photography suddenly became linked to violence. That is most unfortunate and clearly unjustified.

ChuckPinoy's advice not to take photographs when asked not to might have a nice ring to it, but it is one sided. In most countries, photographers have the right to capture images, and there is no general right of people in public places to object to that. It is bit more complex in Spain. There are a couple of useful web resources that have summaries of when consent is required to take a photograph of a person. The first has some discussion of the moral issues. The second is somewhat more strident, but does have some useful advice specific to Spain.

Regards,

 

[jennie]

Taking produce, leaving litter and inconsiderate toilet habits must be the MOST irritating behavior by a tiny minority of pilgrims. Sadly it is this aberrant selfish behaviour that will be remembered, talked about and resented by the local residents. Those of us that care can only seek to leave a better impression.

the last 100 km was so different, as regards rubbish toilet paper etc I was sad to see it ; as I thought if
a person was to go to the trouble of walking for the "back to nature experience" then why leave stuff behind to spoil the next persons journey ? I had lots of plastic bags with me to carry my own rubbish (very little)and to also pick up
other peoples rubbish ! maybe other respectful pilgrims might consider picking up a few bits of strangers trash on there way?

 

[stevenjarvis]

dougfitz, thanks for that interesting information. I think there is a general right of ANYONE to ask someone not to photograph them. There may be no legally codified right that their request be complied with, but they can ask. It's simply rude not to ask. Courtesy seems in short supply. I support the right of anyone to capture images in public, and the right of anyone to ask that it not be theirs.

 

[dougfitz]

@stevenjarvis
I didn't suggest there were easy answers here. I could equally analyse this the other way - is it un-courteous to ask someone to forego doing something they have a right to do?

What concerned me more was linking photography to violence. That needed to be rebutted.

Regards,

 

[Thornley]

Ciruena is spooky. I saw no one there. It was like being in a zombiemovie. I didn't see any violence during my caminos but I saw a lot of stolen corn (thrown away or just the green stuff from it), and the corn is not even grown for humans, it is for animals. Talked with locals that told me that the corn is more or less uneatable.

I actually got fruit (plums and figs) from locals when passing by and had a lot of those lovely blackberries where it was obvious that they didn't grow on someones land. I saw some signs in the big grape fields that the grapes were sprayed with "poison".

I saw some other signs saying "apples for pilgrims".

Have never found a spooky place on the camino's...Frankie, Norte, Le Puy, Portuguese, Madrid and this year from Figeac to Rabe [ Masata]
A great BBQ will always have the corn , in the foil and a little butter.
Had a wonderful experience on a island in the straits between BC and Vancouver Island many years ago
*******It was called a corn roast..........i can assure you all the 100's [5 ] that attended did not worry about this delicacy not being fit for humans.
A famous Canadian tradition love by grateful Australians.

In relation to Ciruena , Casa Victoria is after you pass the empty homes and you actually have to walk back when you hit the road leaving town......... a great place to stay..

 

[Thornley]

@stevenjarvis
I didn't suggest there were easy answers here. I could equally analyse this the other way - is it un-courteous to ask someone to forego doing something they have a right to do?

What concerned me more was linking photography to violence. That needed to be rebutted.

Regards,

Well said Dougfitz,
However mate you cannot stop an angry ant.........thats just their make up
Just a thought................... think 200,000 plus people walk this a year and we worry about an angry woman .........after 40 years married.........better not comment
Walk past them........shut up , tell them to enjoy life , hoo roo , buen camino.......not too hard is it

 

[stevenjarvis]

@stevenjarvis
I didn't suggest there were easy answers here. I could equally analyse this the other way - is it un-courteous to ask someone to forego doing something they have a right to do?

What concerned me more was linking photography to violence. That needed to be rebutted.

Regards,

I didn't sugest that you had suggested.... and no, it would not be discourteous to ask someone not to take a photograph. As with the grapes.

 

[PMSLAW]

The Dude recalls a sign posted at the entrance to Tillmans ravine in Stokes State forest,
" Take nothing but photos, leave nothing but footprints "
this should apply to the Camino as much as it does to wilderness nature trails.

A sign on the Camino Frances...

 

[NicoZ]

We also found this little town very eerie, was always curious to know....was it ever inhabited and then people couldn't afford to make payments and walk away, or did the units never sell ? I wonder how much they sell for now ?

Even with the changes in mortgage laws you don't walk away from a Spanish mortgage. They are still mostly full recourse. That means if you walk away you leave the house,your bank account,car and potentially still have payments to make

 

[jirit]

Even with the changes in mortgage laws you don't walk away from a Spanish mortgage. They are still mostly full recourse. That means if you walk away you leave the house,your bank account,car and potentially still have payments to make

It is more or so a case where the developer is on the hook given I suspect many of the housing units in this case of this town did not sell. By extension the public at large is on the hook too for the unsold real estate and looming unpaid debt used to finance its development since it was the Spanish banks that lent the money to these developers, who is turn are struggling to stay open.

Hence the Spanish government much like the US government and other governments, using tax payers money, are bailing out the banks that foolishly lent money to those developers that foolishly believe that they could sell inflated real estate to folks that simply could not afford it.

I think this is called socialized capitalism, or crony capitalism, previously known as modern day investment banking

 

[BeatriceKarjalainen]

A great BBQ will always have the corn , in the foil and a little butter.

There are different kind of corn, the one that grows along Camino Francés in not the one you grow for humans according to people I talked to. The sweet corn that is for eating is higher. I saw some harvest of corn on Camino Inglés, they just chopped up everything corn, stem, leaves to make animal food.

I saw a lot of stolen corn thrown away just after the fields.

 

[stevenjarvis]

BeatriceKarjalainen, OFF TOPIC , I know, but as you mentioned it ... it's all maize . There are many varieties, we humans like the smaller higher sugar content variety. Here is some useful information http://www.agricultured.org/2012/08/14/difference-between-sweet-corn-and-field-corn/

 

[MendiWalker]

One thing these thieves do not know is that lots of times these crops have been sprayed with pesticides. And the mentioned crops are unfit to be eaten for a certain amount of days.

Buen Camino!

 

[BeatriceKarjalainen]

BeatriceKarjalainen, OFF TOPIC , I know, but as you mentioned it ... it's all maize . There are many varieties, we humans like the smaller higher sugar content variety. Here is some useful information http://www.agricultured.org/2012/08/14/difference-between-sweet-corn-and-field-corn/

I know. The point I tried to make was that people are stealing, thinking it is eatable (they will probably not get sick if they do but it doesn't taste good unless it is sprayed then they can get sick as well) and then they throw it away. It is so wrong in my eyes. I don't like when people thinking that everything along the Camino is free. Not paying at donotivos, stealing crops and fruits etc.

 

[dougfitz]

I didn't sugest that you had suggested.... and no, it would not be discourteous to ask someone not to take a photograph. As with the grapes.

@stevenjarvis
So when is it inappropriate to ask someone to forego something to which they have a right?

The story of the woman in the original post is illustrative. Most responses have focussed on what appears to have been her violent response, and not the fact that she had a right not to have her photograph taken without her consent. Should her violent response be excused because her rights had already been abused and the photographer was not prepared to remedy that situation?

It isn't just a courtesy in Spain to ask before taking someone's photograph even in public, it appears to be a requirement that permission has to be obtained in most circumstances. It doesn't need the language of courtesy to work out that the photographer was wrong in these circumstances to take the photograph.

 

[newfydog]

I know. The point I tried to make was that people are stealing, thinking it is eatable .

I guess you have not tried it. If you pick it young and steam it right away, it is quite good. Like any crop, you have to pick it at the right time. We need to educate the thieves to prevent waste!

 

[supersullivan]

Just to add my tuppence worth to the issue of 'picking' fruit etc.
If it is there as a cultivated crop, regardless of whether it can be 'picked' by reaching out your arm from the Camino path/trail you are standing on, it is theft, pure and simple.
If the grower of the cultivated fruit wanted you to help yourself to whatever you could reach from trailside that he/she would post signs accordingly. Otherwise leave the person who has put in the effort of planting, hoeing, watering and weeding the crop the well deserved fruits of their own labour.
The likes of blackberries growing growing wild trailside is a totally different matter as no matter of ownership/labour is involved.

Have good manners and common sense fellow pilgrims and regard the property of others with the respect you would hope others to give to your possessions.

Seamus

 

[MendiWalker]

Just to add my tuppence worth to the issue of 'picking' fruit etc.
If it is there as a cultivated crop, regardless of whether it can be 'picked' by reaching out your arm from the Camino path/trail you are standing on, it is theft, pure and simple.
If the grower of the cultivated fruit wanted you to help yourself to whatever you could reach from trailside that he/she would post signs accordingly. Otherwise leave the person who has put in the effort of planting, hoeing, watering and weeding the crop the well deserved fruits of their own labour.
The likes of blackberries growing growing wild trailside is a totally different matter as no matter of ownership/labour is involved.

Have good manners and common sense fellow pilgrims and regard the property of others with the respect you would hope others to give to your possessions.

Seamus

You are totally right. Looks like some parents did a lousy job of educating their kids. But keep in mind that common sense is the least common of the senses.

Buen Camino!

 

[David]

I need to grow my garden where it is. If it happens to be near the camino de santiago, does that mean I have to accept that a large percentage of my labor will vanish into the pockets and mouths of passing strangers -- most of whom can afford to buy their own fruit and veg? No.

And if my garden is near the trail, why should I have to erect signs and fences to keep these people from stealing my produce? Are they not decent, law-abiding people, on their way to honor a saint? Why should I spend my time and money "sending a signal" that I do not want to become their victim? Can´t these people police one another? Why does their desire for instant gratification become my loss?

I love the whole dreamy "the camino will provide for me" ethos. But I live in an agricultural area of the Frances, where profit margins are narrow and a few villagers look on pilgrims as "locusts."

Perfect response!

I think that it is a matter of there being two types of laws, the external ones, imposed on humans, and the internal ones realised and willingly accepted by the errmmm ... more awake? - more mature? - ones who accept personal responsibility?
Those who follow the external laws and have no inner awareness will drop those laws at the first opportunity - look at the pillaging and looting that takes place when a riot starts - but those who are more aware stand fast, even in the midst of chaos. I noticed in The Way that the Dutchman just helped himself to grapes when they walked through a vineyard ... the others made no comment ..... what can you do?

As for the camera episode - what is it about holding a camera that in so many people, especially the self-styled 'photographers', that removes all sense of awareness of the privacy and rights of another person? I loathe this attitude, it is arrogant, unkind, and reduces another human to an object. If I could work out how to carry them I would always have half a dozen custard pies with me so that I could (gently and peacefully and without malice) stuff them into the faces of such people, then walk on, smiling and wishing them well

 

[dougfitz]

As for the camera episode - what is it about holding a camera that in so many people, especially the self-styled 'photographers', that removes all sense of awareness of the privacy and rights of another person? I loathe this attitude, it is arrogant, unkind, and reduces another human to an object. If I could work out how to carry them I would always have half a dozen custard pies with me so that I could (gently and peacefully and without malice) stuff them into the faces of such people, then walk on, smiling and wishing them well

Well, @David, you come from a country where an individual has very few rights to privacy with respect to having their photograph taken if they are in a public place, and your proposed remedy would more than likely constitute an assault. As for the trite line of reducing another human being to an object, that seems to be rehearsed from criticism of a much more sinister line of image making, and really has no application to a genuine desire to keep a record of one's travels.

My earlier point is that established legal 'rights' in relation to photography vary, and airy-fairy discussions about courtesy and sensitivity are pointless without an understanding of the legal foundation of the country you are in.

Regards,

 

[David]

That is such nonsense; inter-personal ethics is nothing to do with local laws! - no one has the right to photograph someone on the Camino, especially if they have something like a bandaged leg, without asking their permission.
Legal 'rights' don't come into it - this is about humans, people, how they may feel about something - the reduction of a person to an object.

As for the custard pie remedy being an assault, I think that you might find that the suggestion was a thing called humour - you might have seen a similar thing at a circus when you were a child? .... it is a classic 'gag' , and bringing such an obvious absurdity into a proposed 'remedy' is a continuation of the centuries-old image-gag - humour dougfizz, humour, surely, you must have heard of it

 

[jpflavin1]

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of conversation a post about a negative situation on the Camino can generate. In my opinion, there is one negative action for every hundred positive actions on the Camino. I would suggest we focus on all those generous/positive acts.

In regards to picture taking, no one wants to deprive someone of a pictorial remembrance of their Camino/holiday etc. Laws aside we should have enough mutual respect for each other to abstain from capturing the image of someone who does not want to be photographed.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[dougfitz]

As for the custard pie remedy being an assault, I think that you might find that the suggestion was a thing called humour - you might have seen a similar thing at a circus when you were a child? .... it is a classic 'gag' , and bringing such an obvious absurdity into a proposed 'remedy' is a continuation of the centuries-old image-gag - humour dougfizz, humour, surely, you must have heard of it

Jonnie Marbles didn't find it an obvious absurdity a couple of years ago, and he was convicted of assault. It's just not funny outside of the carefully scripted confines of staged comedy routines, and barely qualifies as humour there.

 

[David]

So, I'll take that answer as a 'no' then, writing about custard pies is not humour ..... oh dear ..... so, the word is out, all pilgrims with a sense of the absurd, please do remember that we all must remember to live our lives within carefully scripted confines ... I do hope that there aren't any banana skins on the Camino ..... ......

Nice post Joe, agree with you completely.

 

[stevenjarvis]

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of conversation a post about a negative situation on the Camino can generate. In my opinion, there is one negative action for every hundred positive actions on the Camino. I would suggest we focus on all those generous/positive acts.
In regards to picture taking, no one wants to deprive someone of a pictorial remembrance of their Camino/holiday etc. Laws aside we should have enough mutual respect for each other to abstain from capturing the image of someone who does not want to be photographed.
Ultreya,
Joe

Well said Joe ; Hear hear !

 

[peregrina2000]

Just to add my tuppence worth to the issue of 'picking' fruit etc.
If it is there as a cultivated crop, regardless of whether it can be 'picked' by reaching out your arm from the Camino path/trail you are standing on, it is theft, pure and simple.

Seamus

Seamus, I appreciate this answer. So I think there are two tenable positions staked out. One is that you should never pick the fruit/produce of anything that has roots in someone's private property, no matter where the branches extend. That's your position, right? The one I tentatively suggested was the one that I thought was the law in the EU. That once branches/stems etc. leave the borders of the private property and hang into the public right of way, they are no longer private property and are available for picking/eating to anyone passing on the public right of way.

If I'm right about what the law says, though, picking from branches on the public right of way can't be theft, can it? Laurie

 

[jirit]

Seamus, I appreciate this answer. So I think there are two tenable positions staked out. One is that you should never pick the fruit/produce of anything that has roots in someone's private property, no matter where the branches extend. That's your position, right? The one I tentatively suggested was the one that I thought was the law in the EU. That once branches/stems etc. leave the borders of the private property and hang into the public right of way, they are no longer private property and are available for picking/eating to anyone passing on the public right of way.

If I'm right about what the law says, though, picking from branches on the public right of way can't be theft, can it? Laurie

Laurie

You sound like a lawyer.

This said, you have made one critical assumption that the right of way is in fact public. It is very possible and we do not know for sure what legal arrangement are in place where the current camino path passes through. Some farmers may have agreed to allow the current path to pass through their property with means the track and path itself might be in fact belong the farmer, who has granted permission to people to pass through and only that.

Legality aside I think it generally more humane, polite and sociable to ask before taking whether it is fruit or photos - that is all I wanted to say.

I think when we start to over analyze something, whether is legal or right, etc, traditional or not, then we have lost sight of the meaning of what the camino is all about.

 

[Maverick]

Seamus, I appreciate this answer. So I think there are two tenable positions staked out. One is that you should never pick the fruit/produce of anything that has roots in someone's private property, no matter where the branches extend. That's your position, right? The one I tentatively suggested was the one that I thought was the law in the EU. That once branches/stems etc. leave the borders of the private property and hang into the public right of way, they are no longer private property and are available for picking/eating to anyone passing on the public right of way.

If I'm right about what the law says, though, picking from branches on the public right of way can't be theft, can it? Laurie

With all due respect Laurie , I think you're getting confused with Roman Law, which does - I believe - allow that, "fruit which overhangs a public right of way belongs to the person who picks it". However, I doubt very much if such Roman Law applies to modern day Europe.
Certainly, as others have said, MORALLY it is plainly wrong to help yourself to the fruits of another's labours.

 

[Barbara]

Pictures.....Ask me and I will smile and say yes, of course. Just point your camera at me and I will ask Dalie to stand on your foot, and probably also be very rude to you.
Fruit and veg. If you come to my home I might offer you something from my garden. If you take it without asking my dogs might bite you. Or I might. If every pilgrim took a kilo of grapes that might cost the farmer his harvest. I walked through the Bordeaux region just after the harvest and asked a grower if it was acceptable to pick the grapes at the end of the row left by the machines. Answer was " this year we have plenty, help yourself. If the crop is poor we follow the machines so there won't be any for you to pick"
Note please that that was AFTER the harvest.
PLEASE use your brains, you are, we are, not entitled to steal because we are walking. What is offered we should accept with grace. What is wild is for all. What is grown by our hosts belongs to them. If they give it to us it it's their kindness, not our right. Our only right is to leave nothing but our footsteps, take nothing but memories.
The Camino is not a public toilet. Walking does not make you a pilgrim.
Grrrr. Rant over for now.

 

[Canucks]

As the OP, to clarify, I was not focussing on some negatives and trying to imply that they generalize the Camino.....that's why I posted.....the absurdity was clear.

Firstly, the theft is real.....not overhanging branches, not wild blueberries.....this is going 20-100 meters into fields and gardens to take things. It is theft.....I have a clear background in farming, not a romanticized one of providing for the masses for free....it is theft, period.

The violence was truly absurd. I *think* but am not sure, that the real focus was the dog. All parties involved overreacted and there was no justification on anyone's part to start hitting...but, it happened and many of us sat back and commented on the sheer absurdity of the situation.

 

[peregrina2000]

Laurie

You sound like a lawyer.

This said, you have made one critical assumption that the right of way is in fact public. It is very possible and we do not know for sure what legal arrangement are in place where the current camino path passes through. Some farmers may have agreed to allow the current path to pass through their property with means the track and path itself might be in fact belong the farmer, who has granted permission to people to pass through and only that.

Legality aside I think it generally more humane, polite and sociable to ask before taking whether it is fruit or photos - that is all I wanted to say.

I think when we start to over analyze something, whether is legal or right, etc, traditional or not, then we have lost sight of the meaning of what the camino is all about.

To maverick -- I qualified my comments by saying that this is what some European pilgrims had told me was the law in Europe, whether or Roman origin or not, and it was once when we were walking on the shoulder of the highway on the way up to Villafranca del Bierzo and there were cherry branches extending way over the shoulder of the highway. They told me that we could eat those cherries without feeling guilty because European Union law said so. This seemed fair to me because, truth be told, these hanging branches were making my walking on the shoulder very difficult, and I wondered whether the landowner would be liable if one of the branches of his cherry trees poked me in the eye and gouged out my eye. Or whether it impeded my visibility and I was hit by a car, or some parade of horribles. So it may also be that the landowner has an obligation to keep the public right of way free from interference by his trees.

To jirit -- So your point builds on the above comment. And I like it a lot -- in many instances we may not know whether the path we are traveling on is the public right of way, it may just be a path through the private property of the cherry-tree grower. And in those cases not even the law will save us.

I agree completely with everyone's comments about being respectful and asking permission, and I was overanalyzing just because I remembered the instance along the highway when I ate the cherries and didn't feel like I had done anything wrong. Sorry, I won't continue to beat this to death.

 

[peregrina2000]

This is one effective way to keep wandering hands off the produce!

 

[dougfitz]

With all due respect Laurie , I think you're getting confused with Roman Law, which does - I believe - allow that, "fruit which overhangs a public right of way belongs to the person who picks it". However, I doubt very much if such Roman Law applies to modern day Europe.
Certainly, as others have said, MORALLY it is plainly wrong to help yourself to the fruits of another's labours.

Certainly the principle in Australia is that where plants overhang a property boundary, any produce that is also overhanging can be collected by whoever owns the property it hangs over. If it is public land then it can be collected by any passer-by. I can only imagine that this came into Australia from Britain, and might apply in other countries with similar legal antecedents.

I don't know, and no-one has pointed to anything definitive to say this applies in Spain. If it does, the practical difficulty remains that for most of us is that we have no idea where property boundaries are. Many times, the marked way was on internal farm access roads, and in others there was clearly no need of fencing to control stock movement, so the boundary was not marked that way.

I am with Laurie on both of these points. Perhaps I was lucky to have walked in early spring before all these temptations were present. I cannot imagine that I would have been any more disciplined now than in my youth when I would ride to school a different way in summer - one that allowed me to sample the ripeness of the local grape crops. And yes, too early tasting or tasting too soon after pesticide treatments resulted in some unpleasant effects.

 

[dougfitz]

So, I'll take that answer as a 'no' then, writing about custard pies is not humour ..... oh dear ..... so, the word is out, all pilgrims with a sense of the absurd, please do remember that we all must remember to live our lives within carefully scripted confines ... I do hope that there aren't any banana skins on the Camino .....

David, your earlier post claimed it was 'obviously absurd' to think one would actually attempt this. I have merely falsified your argument by pointing to a recent real incident where someone who relied on it being seen as humourous was found guilty of assault.

The humour in the custard pie joke is in the portrayal of violent humiliation of the victim. I think we allow ourselves to see it as humorous only because we know that it is staged, and the victim is an actor who is neither hurt nor humiliated. I find it difficult to understand why you would even suggest any form of violent humiliation outside of that context is appropriate at all, let alone in a thread like this.

 

[whariwharangi]

As a contrast there are stories of people who starve to death because they are too proud to steal.

 

[jirit]

As a contrast there are stories of people who starve to death because they are too proud to steal.

Or maybe a case of too proud to ask for help and people too indifferent to assist

 

[piogaw]

to all peregrinos - past, present and future.

may i remind everyone that we are guest in this wonderful country. let us respect the laws and customs here. if you feel it is wrong to do what you do in your own country, then it is wrong to do it here in spain. let us put the ethical and morality issues aside. if you want to take something from a private property, it is better to ask for permission.

que tengan un buen camino y que dios os bendiga.

 

[David]

David, your earlier post claimed it was 'obviously absurd' to think one would actually attempt this. I have merely falsified your argument by pointing to recent real incident where someone who relied on it being seen as humourous was found guilty of assault.

The humour in the custard pie joke is in the portrayal of violent humiliation of the victim. I think we allow ourselves to see it as humorous only because we know that it is staged, and the victim is an actor who is neither hurt nor humiliated. I find it difficult to understand why you would even suggest any form of violent humiliation outside of that context is appropriate at all, let alone in a thread like this.

I take your point Doug - of course, any assault is an assault, you are quite right. I suppose that what I meant by humour is that no one (including me) would actually carry custard pies on the Camino in case of meeting invasive photographers - therefore the sentence was an imagery joke. I can see - I have made this mistake before - that text does not convey what a face and voice intonation carries with it. When I make similar imagery again I shall add one of those smiley laughter things, hoping that this will transmit my meaning a little better.

Mind you, I am most likely the only person on this forum who has had a custard pie stuffed into his face on national television! Decades ago, when I was a family man and my children were young there was a Saturday children's program on television that included a custard pie event. Part of it was the presenters dressing up as mock 1920's American gangsters and carrying custard pie kits (actually shaving foam on a cake base) then surprising a father. Children would write in and they would select one. The whole crew would turn up and surprise the poor man, then they would read out the child's letter, prepare the custard pie and the child would then stuff it into Dad's face. My daughter wrote in (with the help of her mother) and she was selected. I used to organise large scale cycle rides to raise money for charities then. At Canterbury, at the end of my London to Canterbury bike ride - (about 5,000 cyclists on the day) they surprised me and did the business, laughing humiliation, then the prep of the pie and then Mary smothering me with it - and very messy it was too.
So I can tell you from personal experience that the instant reaction to having a custard pie stuffed into one's face is laughter, irrepressible laughter. Context is all, of course, but I, the presenters, the crew, the bystanders, and my daughter, all found it extremely funny. (I then got to do the same to her - much gentler of course ) I still have the video they sent me of the whole thing. (My daughter absolutely loved the day, as did I).

Peace, Doug.

Buen Camino.

 

[hecate105]

If it grows in straight rows - it has been planted by a person - it belongs to them and we shouldn't take it without asking/buying/doing an hours weeding...
If it is growing wildly out of a hedgerow or roadside - it was probably put there by God (feel free to insert word of choice) and we are welcome to it, but it might be prudent to offer a prayer/blessing/litter-picking....
(I apologise to any permaculturalists along the Camino who find pilgrims munching their way thru their gardens!)

 

[GreatDane]

I remember asking a small shop owner this summer why we couldn't find lettuce in the local stores and she said that everyone grew their own and therefore would not be able to sell them...

I stayed at Corazón Puro in Bizkarreta in 2014. What I loved were the private vegetable gardens in every little space around town. Packed to the brim with seemingly no little trails between to even pick the produce. With no real grocery store in town (I don't think I shopped or found Supermerkatua Coviran, I was shown a little Mom and Pop general store), they were growing for their year-round family consumption.