Things the Camino needs more of

[efdoucette]

I don't see the point of this thread. It's antagonizing and frustrates people on both sides of the "change" fence.

 

[GerryDel]

It has been said a number of times that most ATMs only accept 4 digit PINS, is yours a 6 digit PIN? If so that would account for the problem. It is something that needs sorting with the bank before leaving home. (For 4 digit PINS in a 6 digit ATM the cards come with instructions for adding 2 more digits. )

Nope, it was a 4 digit pin. I also called my bank several days before I left and told them where I would be so that they would not put a hold on my card. The problem appeared to be on the Spanish bank side. It was strange because one machine would not work while another would.

 

[bystander]

There is imposed change and there is natural evolution.
The camino will evolve in its own way in response to demand or the needs of those who "service" (nasty verb) and those who use it or it will die.
However the camino seems to have done a pretty good job, on its own, over a millennium plus in adapting and surviving without having to adopt outside suggestions for "improvement".

 

[GerryDel]

I don't see the point of this thread. It's antagonizing and frustrates people on both sides of the "change" fence.

When I started the thread I had no idea there were people who were so adamantly against minor changes. However, I do find the attitude that if "you don't like something about the Camino you should just leave" to be a bit disturbing. There is no ownership of the Camino, no group or correct mode of thinking that gets to decide who is allowed to walk it. We don't all have to like every facet of the Camino. I would never tell someone they shouldn't be on the Camino, unless maybe they were breaking laws or doing something disruptive to others.

 

[indyrem]

Oh man! Is it too hard to dig a hole in the ground and deposit your bodily waste there?Like what some smart animals do? Perhaps all perigrinos should be required to carry a trowel. It is not only disgusting and disrespectful to the locals but leaving excrements exposed spread diseases that will not only affect the local flora and fauna, but also humans, and possibly spoil the Camino.

I carried a trowel with me on my Camino. Fortunately only had to use it only a few times as there's always a bar, restaurant nearby where I can buy something & not feel guilty using their toilets. I also learned to "do my thing" before leaving the albergues which tied me over for a few hours then find a bar to eat lunch, use their facilities. After that I'm usually at my targeted albergue or hostal for the day. Yes, it is disgusting, unhygienic & inconsiderate to leave human waste along the Camino. Let's not spoil our Camino so that present & future peregrinos will enjoy it for a long, long time.

 

[GerryDel]

There is imposed change and there is natural evolution.
The camino will evolve in its own way in response to demand or the needs of those who "service" (nasty verb) and those who use it or it will die.
However the camino seems to have done a pretty good job, on its own, over a millennium plus in adapting and surviving without having to adopt outside suggestions for "improvement".

I'm not an outsider. I was there. I saw what I liked about the Camino and the relatively minor things that I did not like. What you're saying is that pilgrims aren't allowed to provide feedback? I feel like I'm being shouted down in this thread because I saw some things and I didn't like them. Overall my Camino experience was positive and I will probably be back, but I hope too that some things might change a little.

 

[bystander]

What you're saying is that pilgrims aren't allowed to provide feedback? I feel like I'm being shouted down in this thread because I saw some things and I didn't like them.

No, no, no - that is not what I am saying.
What I am saying is that the feedback should be at local level for example when you are on your own camino.
Like suggesting to a bar keeper, restaurant owner, hotel owner etc "Have you considered.....?"
What I am against is some carpet diktat from on high.
I am not being negative as I think some of your suggestions are extremely positive and could be very helpful.

 

[Dutch]

There is imposed change and there is natural evolution.
The camino will evolve in its own way in response to demand or the needs of those who "service" (nasty verb) and those who use it or it will die.
However the camino seems to have done a pretty good job, on its own, over a millennium plus in adapting and surviving without having to adopt outside suggestions for "improvement".

I agree, but...outside "suggestions" create supply and demand. And we all now what happens if there is demand for something....it will come, eventually.

I also think the changes that have come over the years, came because of this pilgrim "demand" and smart business owners jumping in to serve them and make some money. That is also evolution, be it economical, and this will also not stop, but this is the sort of change that some people can't seem to handle eventhough this is how the world works. Supply and demand. This also goes for the camino, be it at a slower rate then the rest of the world.
Good example is laundry services. If enough people ask for laudry services, more will come. Probably even better example: wifi

Things will indeed always change...if someone has a problem with that, then they will have a hard time accepting the actual change when it comes.

Change is a fact and all around us, always. It is what it is.

 

[GerryDel]

No, no, no - that is not what I am saying.
What I am saying is that the feedback should be at local level for example when you are on your own camino.
Like suggesting to a bar keeper, restaurant owner, hotel owner etc "Have you considered.....?"
What I am against is some carpet diktat from on high.
I am not being negative as I think some of your suggestions are extremely positive and could be very helpful.

Okay, well that's cool. And I have no problem with someone saying that nothing should change. I understand that perspective. They are purists who don't want to see it overrun by things like sidewalks and eucalyptus trees, and I partially agree with them. I don't want to see a McDonalds in every town or a Camino Disney, although the idea is funny. My intent was not to insist upon the change, but to just point out things that I thought might improve it a bit. I'm sure Spain will completely ignore my observations, or perhaps some entrepreneur will set up some well placed llavanderias and make a little money. Either way is good. Next time I know what I need to do. I need to plan out my cash well, perhaps get a Spanish bank account so I don't run into cash issues. I need to read more ahead of time about the history of places I am walking in.

 

[Urban Trekker]

I'll be doing the Camino Portugués for the third time at the end of this month. If you need any more information (apart from what is available on this excellent forum), just ask.

I also did the Camino Inglés earlier this summer.

I will start out of Porto sept 7. Should our paths cross let us do lunch or dinner. I promise not to break out the hot sauce.

Happy Trails. Urban T

 

[William Garza]

If I may add my small contribution
instead of change
why not build on the good points already there

eg.. i plan when i go to always leave a little extra room in my pack...for food and other items that may be needed at the next stop.
As said in other threads, some give food and shelter out of the goodness of their hearts and blessings to surely come
they ask for nothing in return, or very little for the value of their service.

so why not ask a faster Peregrino, that if he reaches the next stop before you, to look around and see if there is a need of something, that way you can pick up the item and discretely leave the staple at the Hospitaleros? pantry, bathroom, etc.
some other items left behind can benefit the Souls behind you, benefit the owner and earn you a smile in your soul.

a network of pilgrims sharing of themselves and for others on the Camino..imagine that?

I also speak Spanish, well as a secondary language, and Ime sure to be tired one fine day and will ask if I can be" de servicio a los Caminantes..."
Ime wonderfully and absolutely sure that that would help your fellow traveler

Ime sure the Road will speak to your wondrous Heart, and tell you at the right time, what needs to be done

Build the Camino, each and every step you make leaves a mark for each and every soul to follow

The Spirit is right there, in the actions of everyone who does for another
The Way, is right there, it is plain to see,
The Action, is only one breath to the next

for some, it is to do
for others
it is to see
for some
it is to be partaken of and then taken home, and then the Camino forms a new branch
strait from some rocky little arroyo
or right there from the Cruz de Ferro
it leads back to your front door

but it is up to you..
to decide where it leads to next

Peace

 

[josway2015]

I carried a trowel with me on my Camino. Fortunately only had to use it only a few times as there's always a bar, restaurant nearby where I can buy something & not feel guilty using their toilets. I also learned to "do my thing" before leaving the albergues which tied me over for a few hours then find a bar to eat lunch, use their facilities. After that I'm usually at my targeted albergue or hostal for the day. Yes, it is disgusting, unhygienic & inconsiderate to leave human waste along the Camino. Let's not spoil our Camino so that present & future peregrinos will enjoy it for a long, long time.

Well, good on you indyrem! we're on the same page! That is what we do here in Australia when we go out camping and we're out in the bush where there are no toilet facilities, camping grounds have toilets, but out in the bush, the rule is to dig at least 150 mm deep and 100 meters away from any water source, and then cover human waste with the soil and leaf litters and/or rocks so animals can not dig them out. We have plenty of animals here we need to protect as well as local plants. Maybe as soon as I get to StJ when I start my Camino next year, the first thing I' ll look for is a hardware shop to get a trowel

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I don't think anyone said change is bad, or people who want to improve things should go home, or that they "own" the camino. Just saying that a lot of Spanish businessmen are not nearly so motivated by money as those of us from consumer societies are used to seeing. You may be used to "the customer is always right" and "money talks" at home, but in many parts of Spain the shopkeeper "works to live, he doesn't live to work." He doesn't take plastic because it costs too much, or it's not worth the trouble. He's been in business for years, and he does not mind losing some pilgrim customers -- his customer base is there in town already.
Some pilgrims feel they are saviors of the little towns along the road, that they are doing the camino a big favor by coming over and spending money. This might be true, at least in part. But the pilgrimage is supposed to be interaction, not transaction. Through no fault of our own, many of us view things through a consumer or entrepreneurial lens -- It's 7 a.m., I want a coffee, why doesn't some enterprising person serve breakfast anywhere? They ought to have ATM machines. They ought to put soap in the bathrooms. They ought to put up portable toilets... If the camino wants to stay in business, it must adjust to suit consumer demand.

But the camino is not a business enterprise.
It is the pilgrim's business to adjust himself to the camino, not the other way round.

 

[wayfarer]

Perfectly stated.

 

[Damien Reynolds]

The camino needs more of me! Oh, wait, or do I need more of the Camino?

 

[Olivia Luna]

EuroDisney at O Cebreiro.

 

[josway2015]

OK, I've just gone to the garden to check our trowel. It weights approx 400 gr. frankly I have more important things to put in my backpack for that weight!
Josway, I don't think you have walked the Camino yet, so on the moment you try to accommodate all the things that you think you will need for your Camino, keeping roughly to the 10% body weight, you might think again about the trowel. For those Pilgrims that, because of their body weight 80 kgs or over, a trowel won't make much difference to your overall weight, however I weigh under 60 kgs, I am over 70, I always carry my pack, but I have to keep it at the most 6 kgs! Sorry, no place for a trowel there!
Presumably you intend to walk the francés, where there is a village most of the time in less than one hours walking. Of course it can happen that you have to " go". It's unfortunate and of course one should do everything possible to bury your product!
I'm interested to find out just how many of our Forum members actually carry a trowel! Anne

Hi Anne! No I have yet to walk the Camino, and very much looking forward to it. I am going to walk the Camino France and it is comforting to know that there are villages and possibly toilet stops available within close distances, not that I have any problem with that, being a nurse, we are known for having bladders capable of storing litres and litres of urine at one time no problem with number two either . Seriously, I am quite small, 152 cm and weigh less than 55 kilos, I do not intend to carry much, only the essentials. But if I need to carry a trowel, I will. There are trowels made of strong yet very light plastic, no metal, no wood, they may come in handy not just in burying human waste Josie

 

[GerryDel]

You may be used to "the customer is always right" and "money talks" at home, but in many parts of Spain the shopkeeper "works to live, he doesn't live to work."

I worked in retail way too long to think the customer is always right, but I did learn to listen to my customers and discern what might be beneficial.

He doesn't take plastic because it costs too much, or it's not worth the trouble. He's been in business for years, and he does not mind losing some pilgrim customers -- his customer base is there in town already.

Many businesses build that into the cost structure. Granted, I do not know what the Spanish system is like so cannot comment on it directly, but I think one thing American businesses do is sometimes insist the purchase be over a certain amount. That way they can be sure that it's beneficial for them to offer credit cards. For others, it's about volume. If you can get 20 more customers per day, then perhaps it pays for itself. I understand not wanting to run credit cards for anything under 10 euro. I was addressing more the situation where you want to check into an albergue or pension and cannot use the card for that, since that is often the biggest purchase of the day and it drains cash quickly. I was encouraged that one of the new albergues in Palas de Rei, the Outiero had credit card processing. It saved me having to walk into dowtown and get money after a long walk. Also, since I was paying for two the whole time, maybe I noticed this cash drain more than others.

Some pilgrims feel they are saviors of the little towns along the road, that they are doing the camino a big favor by coming over and spending money. This might be true, at least in part. But the pilgrimage is supposed to be interaction, not transaction.

I don't think I'm a savior, but I do think it's a mutually beneficial relationship. Good customer service pays for itself and helps grow an excellent business. Personally if I were in the business, I hope I would want to make my customers happy.

Through no fault of our own, many of us view things through a consumer or entrepreneurial lens -- It's 7 a.m., I want a coffee, why doesn't some enterprising person serve breakfast anywhere? They ought to have ATM machines. They ought to put soap in the bathrooms. They ought to put up portable toilets... If the camino wants to stay in business, it must adjust to suit consumer demand.

I get what you're saying, but then again, I think that all the things you mention also have benefits. Soap in bathrooms cuts down on disease. Portable toilets cut down on outdoor waste and the spread of disease. Also, for ATM machines it seems like a Catch 22. They want us to use cash, but the machines are not there or working some of the time. So we can't use cash even though we would like to. I know someone said that they saw ATM machines in every town, but I did not. The leg from Roncesvalles to Zubiri would have been very tough for me. There was no machine in Roncesvalles, the machine in Burguete was temporarily down (probably out of money due to high demand). I managed to get cash from a hotel. However, let's say I had not been able to get cash at that hotel. I would have walked to the next town, Espinal, and hoped it was there. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I would have no way of knowing.

But the camino is not a business enterprise.
It is the pilgrim's business to adjust himself to the camino, not the other way round.

Do you really think it isn't? I think a lot of these towns probably sprung up to support the Camino. One of the main tasks of the Knights Templar was to provide banking for pilgrims. It is a business to some, probably not to the pilgrim but to others along the route. Religious pilgrimages generate roughly 8 billion a year. I think that the Camino probably has a big chunk of that. So it's probably pretty vital to the economy.

 

[Charrito]

I will start out of Porto sept 7. Should our paths cross let us do lunch or dinner. I promise not to break out the hot sauce.

Happy Trails. Urban T

I'll be back home before you set off, unfortunately, so our gastronomic get-together will need to be put on ice!

 

[Dutch]

He's been in business for years, and he does not mind losing some pilgrim customers -- his customer base is there in town already.

Oh Rebekah, i don't think you could't be any further from the truth. You do not want to know what would happen to so many businesses along the way when a quarter of a million people yearly stop passing by. It's really kind of naive of you to say this.
Sure, there will also be businesses that will continue, one man's death is another man's bread, but its scary to think how many shopkeepers, restaurants and bar owners ect will go belly up when it all stops.

There are alot of towns along the camino that just arent big enough to even have a steady customerbase that they can live of when pilgrims stop passing by.

Just the difference in revenue of a shop that is directly on the camino and a shop that is just around the corner will probably be amazing.
All these hard working men and women started their business to work so they could live, not the other way around, maybe your right, but if they cant live of it, they've got a big problem. And if their customers , be it pilgrims or otherwise ( there really is no difference), go nextdoor because the entrepeneur next door did change according to some form of demand, they will feel it in their wallet and have a choice to make. Change along with it or......

The camino itself might not be an enterprise, its more an "institution", a well know brand, if you will, but if you own a business on the camino your going to have to treat it like any other business in the world. You will have to adapt to the customers you are trying to reach. Its that simple.

 

[Al the optimist]

The camino needs more of me! Oh, wait, or do I need more of the Camino?

In my case definitely the later. I need very regular fixes and always planning and waiting for the next time.

 

[Charrito]

Most of the different Caminos are well provided with places to stop off, although I hear that the Primitivo is probably the worst for this.

However, I often wonder why some people (bar-owners, for example) do not make more of an effort to deal with peregrinos. A good example would be on the penultimate stage of the Camino Inglés, from Bruma to Sigüeiro. There's a bar in the village of O Porto, but it doesn't open until most people have passed by. Luckily, there IS a bar open in A Rua, and it does a roaring trade. Following this bar, though, there is absolutely NOTHING until you get to Sigüeiro. The one bar in the hamlet of A Calle does not open until the afternoon, and the only other place you can stop is up near Baxoia, where some clever Gallego has set up a cold drinks machine (very high prices).

Surely it would be in the interest of these places to open up and make some money!

I might retire and set up a bar on the Camino Inglés!

 

[MendiWalker]

Following this bar, though, there is absolutely NOTHING until you get to Sigüeiro. The one bar in the hamlet of A Calle does not open until the afternoon, and the only other place you can stop is up near Baxoia, where some clever Gallego has set up a cold drinks machine (very high prices).

Surely it would be in the interest of these places to open up and make some money!

I might retire and set up a bar on the Camino Inglés!

You missed the one in Outeiro. After you pass under the highway the Camino goes to the left , this place is towards the right.

Regarding the drinks machine the price is 1.50€ for a can of soda. It´s cold and in a very strategic place where some peregrinos might need a drink. Compare it to the price in town in a bar.............. dirt cheap I would say.

Good luck on your future business venture.

Ondo Ibili !

 

[TerryB]

. . . . . Things will indeed always change...if someone has a problem with that, then they will have a hard time accepting the actual change when it comes.
. . . . . .Change is a fact and all around us, always.

There is a story, that when Adam and Eve were thrust out of the Garden of Eden into the "real world", he slipped his arm round her shoulders and said, "My dear, we live in a world of change!"

Blessings
Tio Tel

 

[Charrito]

You missed the one in Outeiro. After you pass under the highway the Camino goes to the left , this place is towards the right.

Regarding the drinks machine the price is 1.50€ for a can of soda. It´s cold and in a very strategic place where some peregrinos might need a drink. Compare it to the price in town in a bar.............. dirt cheap I would say.

Good luck on your future business venture.

Ondo Ibili !

Is this the Casa Rural Anton Veiras? Or some other place?

 

[Kanga]

It's Spain. Rural Spain. Nada mas, nada menos.
It's pretty obvious what it needs. A McDonald's serving breakfast every 10 km. They always have good toilets too. With soap and paper. Wifi. Take credit cards.

 

[Dutch]

Good one. Every 10km a remider that McDonalds doesnt sell milkshakes in Spain. Urgh.

Unless.....McDonalds Spain will CHANGE their menu of course

 

[naplesdon]

I have watched this thread for a few days and kept quiet. I hope you realize that one's history is always someone else's propaganda. After all do you want to walk the Camino reading about the atrocities of the Franco years?
Here is personal take on any attempt to plant historic markers.
When I was young my father who was a Civil War buff dragged me on numerous vacations to many "famous" battle sites from the Civil War and Revolutionary War, Yorktown was the most memorable spot from that war, but many of these places are simply farm fields without forts or structures. That is the cherished American history from a very recent period in time, just 100 to 200 years ago.
I have visited the site of the Jacobite's Battle of Culloden in 1745 because it was probably the genesis of my family being shipped to the New World. Why, because they were either on the losing side or on the winning side and as such a given a large land grant in North Carolina which turned out to be 1000's of acre of swamp land. No one know.
The history of Spain is complicated, besides being Pre-Columbian and Pre-Christian, any program of signage would be very subjective. There is no objectivity to history when one steps back that many years. It is like the comment one poster made about the "Roman bridges" built in the 1200 by the Normans.
My favorite subject in regards to Spanish history regards the Basque population. There is no provenance for their culture, their language or origins. They ruled the Atlantic and most likely populated the British Isle giving rise to the Celtic tribes, they probably discovered Nova Scotia several 100 years before Columbus launched his exploration to the New World. They fought Franco and were bombed by the Nazis. There are several great books written on the subject by Mark Kurlansky.

 

[Dutch]

Huh? So in short, you are saying history classes in schools are nothing more then propaganda?

Isn't History a lot about stating cold facts? If you give the facts about both sides of, lets say, an historical argument (war or any other) and stay clear from giving opinions while doing so, whats not objective about that?

I dont get whats wrong with historical markers. So you can say to someone, up that hill you'll find Cruz de fero, let me tell you something about it, camino guidebooks can give some info on its historical meaning, tourist offices can draw you a map ect ect, but you cant put a sign their with the same info, 'cause then it's to touristy? Or maybe not objective?

I don't see the logic in that, but hey, maybe it's just me, i also don't see the logic in McDonals Spain not selling milkshakes and i am pretty sure thats not gonna change because i like one milkshake a year.

 

[naplesdon]

Dutch,
I surely hope you are in jest.

 

[Dutch]

Only in part.

 

[GerryDel]

I have watched this thread for a few days and kept quiet. I hope you realize that one's history is always someone else's propaganda. After all do you want to walk the Camino reading about the atrocities of the Franco years?
Here is personal take on any attempt to plant historic markers.
When I was young my father who was a Civil War buff dragged me on numerous vacations to many "famous" battle sites from the Civil War and Revolutionary War, Yorktown was the most memorable spot from that war, but many of these places are simply farm fields without forts or structures. That is the cherished American history from a very recent period in time, just 100 to 200 years ago.
I have visited the site of the Jacobite's Battle of Culloden in 1745 because it was probably the genesis of my family being shipped to the New World. Why, because they were either on the losing side or on the winning side and as such a given a large land grant in North Carolina which turned out to be 1000's of acre of swamp land. No one know.
The history of Spain is complicated, besides being Pre-Columbian and Pre-Christian, any program of signage would be very subjective. There is no objectivity to history when one steps back that many years. It is like the comment one poster made about the "Roman bridges" built in the 1200 by the Normans.
My favorite subject in regards to Spanish history regards the Basque population. There is no provenance for their culture, their language or origins. They ruled the Atlantic and most likely populated the British Isle giving rise to the Celtic tribes, they probably discovered Nova Scotia several 100 years before Columbus launched his exploration to the New World. They fought Franco and were bombed by the Nazis. There are several great books written on the subject by Mark Kurlansky.

I'm probably different than most. Yes I would like to know about where atrocities happened during the Franco years. I was personally wondering if I was walking through major sites of the Spanish Civil War. Like I said in a previous post, I don't want the info spoon fed. A simple marker that says that an event occurred in this town or a famous person lived here would be a good start. I can pull up more info on my kindle later on. If a museum springs up at the location due to traffic, then yes I would be more induced to stop there, but that's merely my choice. Another pilgrim may decide not to. Is that behaving like a tourist? If so, so be it. I think a pilgrim is a type of tourist and there's no shame in that. I also don't mind a little propaganda. I can always go back and read in more detail. I walked through Antietam years ago, found the place fascinating and ended up studying it for the following 6 months. I didn't just go on what I learned at the site, although it was the site that inspired me to learn more.

 

[Kanga]

Are we losing the whole point of the Camino? What is it about? A time outside our normal lives. Simplicity. Discarding. Time. To ponder, to day-dream, to share. The luxury of idle time. Living in the moment. Enduring. Joy and wonder. Moving through the landscape. Spain. Sharing bread with strangers. Strangers becoming friends. Meeting all nations on earth, every race, every creed. Going beyond our abilities. Stepping outside our comfort zone. Lifting ourselves. Finding our bodies. Finding faith. Finding hope. Finding grace. Each new day exactly the same. Each new day completely different. A journey, a destination.
And we are whinging?

 

[naplesdon]

Thank you Kanga for your good sense, you opinions are always much appreciated. You are so right. there is so much to gain from the Camino on a day by day basis rather than pining for lessons from its history.
Personally, I would not want to relive through historic markers the stories of the Moorish domination of Spain as I walk along the Camino or do the endless skull scratching I find myself doing wondering how in the world the armies of Napoleon, Charlemagne and El Cid moved across Spain to wage their wars on a path that is only about 3 meters wide.
I am going to bow out of this thread and maybe the Forum as well.

 

[GerryDel]

Are we losing the whole point of the Camino? What is it about? A time outside our normal lives. Simplicity. Discarding. Time. To ponder, to day-dream, to share. The luxury of idle time. Living in the moment. Enduring. Joy and wonder. Moving through the landscape. Spain. Sharing bread with strangers. Strangers becoming friends. Meeting all nations on earth, every race, every creed. Going beyond our abilities. Stepping outside our comfort zone. Lifting ourselves. Finding our bodies. Finding faith. Finding hope. Finding grace. Each new day exactly the same. Each new day completely different. A journey, a destination.
And we are whinging?

I don't see what precludes you from doing these things while also enjoying the history. If I happened upon the site of some Franco massacre, I would take the opportunity to pray for those people first and foremost. Hence, my faith would be increased. In my faith people are not dead. They are alive in heaven or purgatory and I can pray for them, and they can pray for me. I feel affinity with the ancient pilgrims. It is much the same as when I hiked through Chaco Canyon in New Mexico. I felt connected to the ancient people who lived there. It is the same as when I began Zen years ago and I felt like I was walking with the same people who practiced Kinhin thousands of years before. To me history is an essential part of a human being. It is alive. I am sure I would find like minded pilgrims who enjoy history.

How is this experience any less than a pilgrim who wants to do what you've described? With all respect, I think you are making a value judgement about how others experience their Camino.

 

[Theatregal]

Are we losing the whole point of the Camino? What is it about? A time outside our normal lives. Simplicity. Discarding. Time. To ponder, to day-dream, to share. The luxury of idle time. Living in the moment. Enduring. Joy and wonder. Moving through the landscape. Spain. Sharing bread with strangers. Strangers becoming friends. Meeting all nations on earth, every race, every creed. Going beyond our abilities. Stepping outside our comfort zone. Lifting ourselves. Finding our bodies. Finding faith. Finding hope. Finding grace. Each new day exactly the same. Each new day completely different. A journey, a destination.
And we are whinging?

QUOTE="GerryDel, post: 237857, member: 36701"]I don't see what precludes you from doing these things while also enjoying the history. If I happened upon the site of some Franco massacre, I would take the opportunity to pray for those people first and foremost. Hence, my faith would be increased. In my faith people are not dead. They are alive in heaven and I can pray for them, and they can pray for me. I feel affinity with the ancient pilgrims. It is much the same as when I hiked through Chaco Canyon in New Mexico. I felt connected to the ancient people who lived there. It is the same as when I began Zen years ago and I felt like I was walking with the same people who practiced Kinhin thousands of years before. To me history is an essential part of a human being. It is alive. I am sure I would find like minded pilgrims who enjoy history..[/QUOTE]

Through all the posts in this thread started by GerryDel, we arrive at the above two from Kanga and GerryDel which for me, perfectly encapsulate what the camino is to me. Thank you both.

 

[Tia Valeria]

We were in a village shop chatting and mentioned 'the war' - meaning WW2. Silence from the shopkeeper, then -'We don't talk about it - it is too painful' Explanation from us, WW2, conversation restored with the comment that Spain still needs time to come to terms with the past. We should respect that and not expect 'historic markers'. Another point to consider is that history is seldom unbiased. Let us walk the Camino as pilgrims and maybe do our own research as historians.
Eg:- Having walked the Primitivo I am in awe of Sir John Moore who led the British army to safety through the mountains in the depths of winter when retreating from Napoleon. His grave in Coruna is still honoured by the Spanish, who Moore was fighting alongside . The retreat to Coruna was the Dunkirk of the Napoleonic War in Spain.

I too will now bow out of this thread, but not the forum

 

[Theatregal]

We were in a village shop chatting and mentioned 'the war' - meaning WW2. Silence from the shopkeeper, then -'We don't talk about it - it is too painful' Explanation from us, WW2, conversation restored with the comment that Spain still needs time to come to terms with the past. We should respect that and not expect 'historic markers'. Another point to consider is that history is seldom unbiased. Let us walk the Camino as pilgrims and maybe do our own research as historians.
Eg:- Having walked the Primitivo I am in awe of Sir John Moore who led the British army to safety through the mountains in the depths of winter when retreating from Napoleon. His grave in Coruna is still honoured by the Spanish, who Moore was fighting alongside . The retreat to Coruna was the Dunkirk of the Napoleonic War in Spain.

I too will now bow out of this thread, but not the forum

History and my own research - yes. For me, historical markers are not necessary.

 

[GerryDel]

We were in a village shop chatting and mentioned 'the war' - meaning WW2. Silence from the shopkeeper, then -'We don't talk about it - it is too painful' Explanation from us, WW2, conversation restored with the comment that Spain still needs time to come to terms with the past. We should respect that and not expect 'historic markers'. Another point to consider is that history is seldom unbiased. Let us walk the Camino as pilgrims and maybe do our own research as historians.
Eg:- Having walked the Primitivo I am in awe of Sir John Moore who led the British army to safety through the mountains in the depths of winter when retreating from Napoleon. His grave in Coruna is still honoured by the Spanish, who Moore was fighting alongside . The retreat to Coruna was the Dunkirk of the Napoleonic War in Spain.

I too will now bow out of this thread, but not the forum

My mom's hometown was bombed by Nazis. The aircraft factory where my grandfather worked was bombed and 13 coworkers were killed. My mom was nearly killed by a bomb that was dropped in front of her mother's car. She talks about it. The people in my mom's area have come to terms with the past. Some people can talk about the past and some cannot. Some find it's cathartic to discuss what happened. Perhaps the gentleman you were talking to has some old scars that he cannot overcome. I think of my own people, who have many documented historical sites throughout the country. I cannot imagine an entire country deciding to never talk about the war. There may be individuals. If they don't actively document it, then they will lose that history. Much of it has probably already slipped away. I think they have a Guernica Peace Museum. So they do document some things. I remember taking my English aunt to a state fair here in the U.S. We passed a monument to veterans, and she stopped to pray for them. Not even her own countrymen, but she saw that it was a reminder of the brave men who served during that awful war, and so she did what was human and correct. If the monument had not been there, it would not have been a lesson for me to pay respect to the people of the past.

I am quite aware that there is bias in history lessons, but as mentioned before I don't fear that. I can actively research things myself. Now that I've been to Spain and seen that they don't document where things happen, I wouldn't go back without doing a full historical review of where I was walking. However, I think many people would never go to this trouble. Also, for me it would be difficult to remember what I read while walking through it, or to know exactly where it happened. It's one thing to read up on a place ahead of time, quite another to actually locate the buildings or site.

 

[Pelegrin]

"biarritzdon, post: .
My favorite subject in regards to Spanish history regards the Basque population. There is no provenance for their culture, their language or origins. They ruled the Atlantic and most likely populated the British Isle giving rise to the Celtic tribes, they probably discovered Nova Scotia several 100 years before Columbus launched his exploration to the New World. They fought Franco and were bombed by the Nazis. There are several great books written on the subject by Mark Kurlansky".

If the Basques populated the British Isle in the Neolitic, maybe, but if they originated the Celtic tribes wouldn't explain how the Basques still speak a non indoeuropean language whereas the Celtic languages are indoeuropeans. Best explanation it's that the so called Celtic tribes arrived later,

 

[Al the optimist]

Just a comment. I won't be getting to get involved any in depth discussion on it because I am no expert on the matter. There is a theory by Stephen Oppenheimer in the June 2007 edition of Prospect that the English as well as the Irish, Welsh, and Scots still derive most of their current gene pool from the same early Basque source. The genetic evidence shows that three quarters of our ancestors came to this corner of Europe as hunter-gatherers, between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago, after the melting of the ice caps but before the land broke away from the mainland and divided into islands. Our subsequent separation from Europe has preserved a genetic time capsule of south western Europe during the ice age, which we share most closely with the former ice-age refuge in the Basque country.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Bombs are dropped from the sky, by strangers. It is horrifying, but somehow easier to recover from. "History" is faceless.
When it is your neighbor who betrayed your brother to the soldiers (some of whom you knew from school), or your priest tells your confession to the men at city hall, and your dad and Mom are hauled off and shot out in the fields... or if you know your grandad betrayed the family down the road, and seized their belongings for himself... Well. You still have to live in the same town, alongside the same people who so deeply wronged you, or whom you or your family so deeply wronged.
That is why Spain stayed so quiet for so long. History here has a face. It belongs to someone you have to live with. And unless you want the civil war to continue through generations, you shut up and try to let the past disappear along with your generation.

 

[grayland]

Please....try to keep the discussion non-judgemental and thoughtful.

Many threads end up closed because the opinions of others are not respected.

 

[GerryDel]

Bombs are dropped from the sky, by strangers. It is horrifying, but somehow easier to recover from. "History" is faceless.
When it is your neighbor who betrayed your brother to the soldiers (some of whom you knew from school), or your priest tells your confession to the men at city hall, and your dad and Mom are hauled off and shot out in the fields... or if you know your grandad betrayed the family down the road, and seized their belongings for himself... Well. You still have to live in the same town, alongside the same people who so deeply wronged you, or whom you or your family so deeply wronged.
That is why Spain stayed so quiet for so long. History here has a face. It belongs to someone you have to live with. And unless you want the civil war to continue through generations, you shut up and try to let the past disappear along with your generation.

I don't know if it's easier to recover from or just different. They are just now discussing putting up a memorial for the aircraft factory after all these years. They finally came to realize that the history needed to be preserved before it is long forgotten. I don't know much about the Spanish Civil War, but I was not saying I wanted to delve into the private lives of those involved. I was more referring to major battles and saying that I would be interested in knowing if they occurred in a location along the Camino. My mother's family actually sponsored German POWs and had them in her home when she was a child. They used to come over and do handiwork during the war. Maybe that was cathartic too. My own country is 140 years out from a civil war. There were still remnants of old hatreds when I was a child living in Texas, certain resentments towards northerners. It was stronger for my dad and grandfather's generation, so I do realize it takes years to get past.

 

[ivar]

Will close this thread since it is way of topic...