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This is a very Negative Post. A Vent.

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omar504

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016,2017,2018
Have walked from Mont St Michel and four GR65's from Le Puy Domigee and yes they are more protective of their accommodation and way of village life,
And the cost [ there are few alberques ] in my opinion stops many , especially the young groups.
Thats why we return to France and commence on that side of Pyrenees ,
I was a bit tongue in cheek when asking those questions ;)
The route from mont st michel was great but keep it quiet!!!
 

omar504

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016,2017,2018
You're incredible vent on everything you hate is amazing. I walked the Camino last year, and yes, there were things that I struggled with. People getting up before dawn, crazy People judging me, festivals in towns way after midnight. It was all the flavor. I don't know where your anger is coming from. My suggestion to you is....keep on walking. No one cares about your anger. Work it out for yourself
Why should she have to put up with stupid idiotic people?
 

omar504

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016,2017,2018
You're incredible vent on everything you hate is amazing. I walked the Camino last year, and yes, there were things that I struggled with. People getting up before dawn, crazy People judging me, festivals in towns way after midnight. It was all the flavor. I don't know where your anger is coming from. My suggestion to you is....keep on walking. No one cares about your anger. Work it out for yourself
Why should she have to put up with stupid idiotic people?
 
Camino(s) past & future
Nearly every year since 2006, often walking more than one route.
:::😆::
Oh my!
I'm not spending my time angry and worked up.
Venting was GOOD - and just like letting the steam out of a pressure cooker - venting works.
Thanks to this wonderful forum and the support I received after my vent!

It's now 2019 and I'm caring for my elderly mother this year and won't be taking a group on the Camino until she recovers or passes or boots me out, whichever comes first. Mom fell last month and broke her hip, her femur and 3 ribs. She went to surgery in San Jose, where I slept in my van in the parking lot for a week so I could be there with her. She is now in a facility in her town and I am staying at her home, caring for her dog and house. They will be bringing her to the house on Thursday to evaluate the house and see if maybe she is ready to come home. If so, I will stay here as long as she needs me.

My mother did not rear me.
Her parents did, and so we haven't really had a great relationship.
In fact, she was treating me so horribly that I "divorced her" for 10 days last month, swearing never to return.
And I think that actually did some good.
I think she realized that unless I was here, she didn't have many options, because since I returned (because my niece couldn't handle mom alone and asked me to return) mom has been very kind and loving. I've heard more "I love you and appreciate you's" in the past 3 weeks than I heard in 66 years. So it's been good.

At any rate, we'll see how it goes.
Once I'm finished with my responsibility here, I plan on taking a long Camino alone, for myself, to give me time to reflect, think, and plan for my future. Whether or not that involves taking another group or two remains to be seen. I've taken down my website for now, and am concentrating on my mother's care and doing a bit of art to keep me otherwise occupied.

I have gone back and read over this thread, and smiled at all the support I got and chuckled at the people who told me to "get over it." My advice to them is to not dole out advice until they've been in a person's shoes and perhaps not to "assume" that just because a person is venting, that they're angry and worked up. That cracked me up, honestly! lol!

I personally am hoping the Camino slows down a bit before I walk again.
Maybe I will finally do a winter Camino.
Time will tell.
Until then, I hope you ALL have a wonderful summer and a very Buen Camino!
Annie
 

trecile

Camino Addict
Camino(s) past & future
SJPDP-Finisterre X 2 - 2016 & 2017, El Norte - Irun to Vilalba 2018
Oh my!
I'm not spending my time angry and worked up.
I wasn't saying that you are spending your time being angry and worked up. I was just replying to the other poster. I think that it's great to vent here about things that bother you, especially if it helps to keep you from being angry and worked up. Sometimes we just need to get those feelings out there in a safe space. But dwelling on it can be unhealthy. And no, I don't think that you Annie are dwelling on it.
 

omar504

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016,2017,2018
I wasn't saying that you are spending your time being angry and worked up. I was just replying to the other poster. I think that it's great to vent here about things that bother you, especially if it helps to keep you from being angry and worked up. Sometimes we just need to get those feelings out there in a safe space. But dwelling on it can be unhealthy. And no, I don't think that you Annie are dwelling on it.
spending my time angry and worked up?...
 

NorthernLight

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Le Puy to Santiago via the Frances 2012-2013. EPW2015
Aragonese & Frances 2016
Burgos to Muxia 2017
Close perhaps, but it would be a shame to delete it.
 

Nana6

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
France ( 2020)
VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.

I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. I state in the handouts "This is a budget trip, not a five-star vacation." "We are not a company, we are pilgrims helping pilgrims." But I've discovered that many do not bother to read the material I send out. That assumption is based on the constant questions I get about material I covered in the hand outs.

For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.
  • I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
  • I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
  • I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
  • One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
  • I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
  • I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
  • I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
  • I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
  • I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
  • After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
  • I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
  • I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.
Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino (and there HAVE been more positive experiences than negative) in past years, I'm feeling "done."

It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I do know myself.

I have learned I don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.

So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::
*****
I also need to add that I have met and led WONDERFUL people on the Camino.
Many more of those than the negative type.
Most of the people in my groups have been polite, fun-loving, respectful, spiritual, and kind PILGRIMS who I have thoroughly enjoyed. It just seems there's always that one or two in each group that tries to ruin it.

I'm grateful for the conversation this has opened up.
I will leave the post up.

Today is a better day!
Thanks all.
I am so sorry you have endured such rudeness and selfishness. It is all over the world. So sad it is on the Camino.
Thank you for being a good person that cares.
 

Anthony18

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
2019
I appreciate the vent Annie. Dealing with people as you do will eventually lead you to witnessing ridiculous and unacceptable behavior. Your post lends a degree of truth to the camino experience that I think many would rather avoid posting. I find your post refreshing and most welcome!
 

Thornley

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances x 2 , Norte x 2 , Le Puy x 3 , Portuguese x 2,
Mont St Michel , Primitivo .
wasn't saying that you are spending your time being angry and worked up. I was just replying to the other poster.
Thats you Peugeot 504 [my kids had one] the other poster. ;)
 

Raggy

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Mozarabe Almeria (2017)
Cherhill to Canterbury - Pilgrims' Way (2018)
Via Francigena (2019)
From Irun albergue on the difference between pilgrim and tourist. “The pilgrim is grateful. The tourist demands.”
Photo credit to Pierre Louis Blaix: lpe-asso.org

56473
 

omar504

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016,2017,2018
Poor Omar has been walking The Camino's for a decade now in all parts of Europe Trecile , he knows how to get rid of his anxieties
That was the theme of the thread
 

Gailsie

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances Fall '09 ;
I will go out on a limb and probably be hung drawn and quartered by saying that I think it is a part of the way that society is leaning these days. It seems to me that many people think that they are the most important, that they don't have to follow common sense, rules or think of other people. I see so much bad behaviour that it makes me wonder what the world is coming to.
 

Lucy Keenan

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Northern Route - 2016
Santiago to Finestiere and Muxia - 2017
Frances Route - May 2018
Camino Ingles
VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.

I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. I state in the handouts "This is a budget trip, not a five-star vacation." "We are not a company, we are pilgrims helping pilgrims." But I've discovered that many do not bother to read the material I send out. That assumption is based on the constant questions I get about material I covered in the hand outs.

For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.
  • I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
  • I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
  • I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
  • One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
  • I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
  • I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
  • I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
  • I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
  • I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
  • After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
  • I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
  • I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.
Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino (and there HAVE been more positive experiences than negative) in past years, I'm feeling "done."

It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I do know myself.

I have learned I don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.

So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::
*****
I also need to add that I have met and led WONDERFUL people on the Camino.
Many more of those than the negative type.
Most of the people in my groups have been polite, fun-loving, respectful, spiritual, and kind PILGRIMS who I have thoroughly enjoyed. It just seems there's always that one or two in each group that tries to ruin it.

I'm grateful for the conversation this has opened up.
I will leave the post up.

Today is a better day!
Thanks all.
Oh dear Annie. Sounds like you need a break
 

lizlane

Small Town Girl, Small Town World
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances 2019
So when this thread popped up and it was a VENT by our lovely Annie, I had to be nosy. I was shocked that it was a three-year-old post. So I read through the thread because I believe it's good forum etiquette to know what's been said before.

Not only was Annie provided with a place to vent, she received enough suggestions. As Annie wrote before, she is in a different place in 2019. Caring for an infirm parent is the hardest job in the world. Especially when the bond has been strained through years of trials and difficulties..,

So I would like to see support for her current circumstances offered. Annie my heart goes out to you. If you want to vent to a stranger who has been through it, PM me.

Everyone else needs to stop skimming the thread, realize this was three years ago, a snapshot in time. Not the way Annie feels today. Though the basic message is that we should consider the impact of our actions on others, regardless of whether you are a tourist or a pilgrim. It's called being an adult not a brat.
 

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/CF ('16)
Baztanés/CF ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/CF/Invierno ('19)
on the next visit looked at pilgrims ... really looked, went beyond the surface, talked with the rude, talked with the silent, talked with the pre-occupied - and I found that all was well ... that my response to the earlier visit had all been in my head and that pilgrims are as they have always been - that rich mix of humanity
I will be able to do this someday, I hope.;)
(Well sometimes I can. Other times all I see in the kind of people Annie was talking about are oversized spoiled brats, and it really bugs me.:oops:)
Though the basic message is that we should consider the impact of our actions on others, regardless of whether you are a tourist or a pilgrim. It's called being an adult not a brat.
Exactly, @lizlane. I'm actually glad this thread is having an encore. As a reminder of how not to be.

The next question to you all. How do you deal with people who are being inconsiderate: do you talk to them, or not? Not looking for opinions, just curious to know how different people approach the situation - to ignore or not to ignore?
 

SabineP

Camino = Empathy + Compassion.
Camino(s) past & future
some and then more. see my signature.
The next question to you all. How do you deal with people who are being inconsiderate: do you talk to them, or not? Not looking for opinions, just curious to know how different people approach the situation - to ignore or not to ignore?
It depends on the situation. I remember I sometimes intervened in the past when I saw that other people in the albergue were annoyed by inconsiderate behaviour of a fellow pilgrim but they were a bit apprehensive to take on the confrontation. So then my idea of " social justice " ( I know , very subjective all in all :) ) got the upper hand and I tried to talk to the person.
Or in the case of a very drunken fellow pilgrim in the dorm ( he was vomiting over our backpacks ) I went to the owners next door ( it was a private albergue ). They found an alternative for the pilgrim.

If it is only one other pilgrim and I , I will leave it like that. One of my pet peeves is people who do not put their phones on silent and the bl%%% things keeps going.
I love my ear plugs!
 

Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2015); Ch. d'Arles: Oloron Ste Marie to Aragones; Frances (2016); V.d.l.P.; Sanabres (2017)
I will be able to do this someday, I hope.;)
(Well sometimes I can. Other times all I see in the kind of people Annie was talking about are oversized spoiled brats, and it really bugs me.:oops:)
Exactly, @lizlane. I'm actually glad this thread is having an encore. As a reminder of how not to be.

The next question to you all. How do you deal with people who are being inconsiderate: do you talk to them, or not? Not looking for opinions, just curious to know how different people approach the situation - to ignore or not to ignore?
I am curious how others know that someone is being inconsiderate. Is it because someone gets up before I do or talks to someone when I wish that I were still sleeping or makes more noise than I consider necessary packing their bag? What do I know about that person's camino? Were they unable to sleep and desperate to get moving before it gets too hot? Is their bunk littered with clothing and other personal items because their things would not dry when hung outside and they really need some clean, dry clothes? Are they travelling with a group and trying to get everyone out and moving together? Have they already lost all their spare clothes trying to pack in the dark and know that they just can't manage to do so? Do their efforts to get everything out of the dormitory and pack outside wake you up?
The only camino crimes which I have not yet committed are turning a light on in the dormitory in the morning, or talking to someone before everyone is up. Talking in the morning is not a temptation for me, because I walk alone. I have lost essential items (my spare set of socks) trying not to disturb others. But the flashlight with which I try to check that I have everything could be considered a nuisance to others. The zip-lock bags in which I pack my gear to keep it dry might be considered a major offence.
This is communal living. We all need to get used to it. I remember an amusing incident when all the residents of a dormitory full of female pilgrims were tiptoeing around in the dark, trying to avoid disturbing the one male pilgrim who had spent the night there. Finally, one of them dared to say, "Turn the light on. He's gone." So he was much better at morning activities than the rest of us. But we tried. That is all anyone can do.
 

davebugg

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (2017)
Camino Frances (2018)
Camino Ingles (2019)
This old thread has gotten me to ponder about someone being inconsiderate in a common dorm living situation of an alburgue. . . . does an action require a specific intent to make it inconsiderate?

I tend to think of an inconsiderate act in the same way most injuries are categorized: Intentional or Unintentional. Some would say Accidental or Purposeful.

Obliviots are those folks who seem unable or incapable of recognizing that what they might be doing imposes on someone else. A lot of inconsiderate behavior seems to be perpetrated by those in this category. They simply are oblivious to the impact on others of their early morning behavior of pre-dawn bag rustling as they pack up their backpacks with their flashlight beams swirling around and punching into the faces of sleeping pilgrims.

A lot of times, these "unintentional" offenders are newbies, and if they are gently instructed about dorm living, they are generally eager to participate with good shared-dorm behavior.

You would think that people would instinctively know this stuff, but a lot can depend on what is taught and learned as a young child at home, as far as an adult's level of common sense and consideration is concerned. Plus, living in an open dorm-style may be a brand new experience and the learning curve hasn't yet kicked in.

The one's who know better and just don't give a flying fig about what anyone thinks are the real challenge. They are of the belief that it is up to those around them to adapt to how they behave, not visa versa. There is really nothing to be done with this category of "intentional inconsideration"; not within the realm of the law, at any rate :)

One of the things I love about this Forum is the care and support that members honestly and unselfishly give to one another. Those who post about illness, tragedies, disappointments, grief, and yes, all of the joys and successes, too, are usually responded to with much warmth and support and virtual hugs of its other members. I am personally glad that our fellow members trust each other enough on this Forum to post their 'ventings' when a frustration has been building. I am likewise thankful that this Forum has been here for me under such circumstances.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Jul-Sept 2019: Six weeks in Northern Spain.
Apr 2018 Asturias
May 2016 CP: Portuguese
...Obliviots are those folks who seem unable or incapable of recognizing that what they might be doing imposes on someone else...
@davebugg, to semiquote an Eddie Murphy line, "I luv you man...I just fell in love with you". :D
OBLIVIOTS! What a word. Thanks!!!
 

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/CF ('16)
Baztanés/CF ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/CF/Invierno ('19)
It's a new and delicious word for me too. Sometimes made-up words are better than real ones.
Thanks Dave!
This is communal living. We all need to get used to it.
Yes. And. There are people who do things they know are difficult for others, but they couldn't care less - or worse, seem entitled to being allowed to make trouble for others. We have all met them. Some of the people in Anemone's original posts are stellar examples.
does an action require a specific intent to make it inconsiderate?
That would be my criterion. Obliviots are innocent of inconsiderate intention.
 

davebugg

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (2017)
Camino Frances (2018)
Camino Ingles (2019)
OBLIVIOTS! What a word. Thanks!!
It's a new and delicious word for me too. Sometimes made-up words are better than real ones.
Thanks Dave!
To be sure, I did not invent the word as I saw it first use about 7 or 8 years ago. I latched onto it because it seems to perfectly blend the terms 'oblivious' and 'idiots' into a wonderful singular expression. :)
 

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/CF ('16)
Baztanés/CF ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/CF/Invierno ('19)
Fellow forum members we have a new mission. To get "Obliviots" into the OED (Chambers will do ;))

I will use it in any relevant context that I can: next weeks Board meeting pertains...
A fertile field of possibility. You have my condolences, Tinca.
 

Tincatinker

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Lots ;0)
That would be my criterion. Obliviots are innocent of inconsiderate intention.
And let us thank all the Gods for that. Can you imagine what it might do for our innocence if we thought the b*ggrs were doing it deliberately. St @davebugg didn't appellate those: I guess out of a sense of forum decorum.

Edited for grammar
 
Last edited:

Chica36

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Primitivo
VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.

I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. I state in the handouts "This is a budget trip, not a five-star vacation." "We are not a company, we are pilgrims helping pilgrims." But I've discovered that many do not bother to read the material I send out. That assumption is based on the constant questions I get about material I covered in the hand outs.

For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.
  • I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
  • I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
  • I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
  • One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
  • I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
  • I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
  • I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
  • I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
  • I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
  • After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
  • I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
  • I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.
Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino (and there HAVE been more positive experiences than negative) in past years, I'm feeling "done."

It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I do know myself.

I have learned I don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.

So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::
*****
I also need to add that I have met and led WONDERFUL people on the Camino.
Many more of those than the negative type.
Most of the people in my groups have been polite, fun-loving, respectful, spiritual, and kind PILGRIMS who I have thoroughly enjoyed. It just seems there's always that one or two in each group that tries to ruin it.

I'm grateful for the conversation this has opened up.
I will leave the post up.

Today is a better day!
Thanks all.
No need to feel guilty about having a rant. You sound like you have the patience of a saint! If it was me I would probably be in prison for hitting some of these ignorant people!
 

biarritzdon

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF11, CF12, CP13, CF14, CA15, S.Anton15, CF&CI15
Ditch Pig16, CF&CP17, CdN18, CM18, CF18, LePuy19
The OP was 2016, I really doubt it has changed much. The offenders don't visit the Forum and wouldn't understand "is it about me?" Just follow the APOC on FB.
 
Last edited:

lizlane

Small Town Girl, Small Town World
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances 2019
Obliviots are those folks who seem unable or incapable of recognizing that what they might be doing imposes on someone else.
This is brilliant parroting then Dave! Watch while I make it an American thing. I will be using this left and right.

The OP was 2016, I really doubt it has changed much. The offenders don't visit the Forum and wouldn't understand "is it about me?" Just follow the APOC on FB.
Umm that's a NO! I love being in the APOC group. I've paid my dues. I come here to "THE GROWN-UPS' TABLE" because I don't need my camino chewed up and spit back into my mouth in swallowable chunks. This forum is my nest and I learned to forage from the search feature.

The next question to you all. How do you deal with people who are being inconsiderate: do you talk to them, or not? Not looking for opinions, just curious to know how different people approach the situation - to ignore or not to ignore?
See this is a "meaty" question for me. I am highly empathic. I'm also highly co-dependent. I see a person having a bad day and I'm the type to ask them what's wrong, how can I help? I spent years counseling people. It's my nature to help with the wounds. I wish I had a million dollars for every time a person ever said to me, "You're the first person I've told..." All that has come at a price. I want to know how I can be of service on the Camino while not missing the medicine the Camino holds for me. I mean medicine in the soul-sense, like the Native Americans use it. I'm big on confronting people about being 'obliviots'.

Just today I saw in the beloved APOC group a post from a member who had gotten sick because some obliviot thought it didn't matter if they stayed in the dorm. Now you know as an adult when you are contagious with a thing. Maybe not in the first 24-48 hours when you're incubating it but once symptomatic. If you're coughing, sneezing, swallowing enough phlegm to tide you over until lunch, your person belongs in a private room. Because you're not walking by yourself and you have no right to launch your special penance on all the unawares. You're an adult, not a child. Your actions don't ricochet off the bubble you live in. They go out. Outwards, onwards and upwards. That is what the Camino is.
 

Thornley

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances x 2 , Norte x 2 , Le Puy x 3 , Portuguese x 2,
Mont St Michel , Primitivo .
How do you deal with people who are being inconsiderate
"Is everything all right mate " thats all you ask VN
They more than likely think i'm mad , then again they just might think again about what was asked.
Why would he ask me that they might consider
 

Thornley

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances x 2 , Norte x 2 , Le Puy x 3 , Portuguese x 2,
Mont St Michel , Primitivo .
I like it. :cool:
And have you actually done this, Thornley? What comes back?
1/2 think i'm mad
1/2 you can see change , just in little subtle ways , but yes you see it.
For the good half;
When leaving a cafe/bar between stages i usually put a beer [ afternoon ? , ok noon ] on the table where he is sitting and with just a light tap on the shoulder tell him i over ordered and depart.
Has always worked VN and nothing is ever mentioned from days prior, thats the secret.......move on mate.
---------------------------------
A few years ago when walking from Le Puy we met a French guy who always ended up [ innocently] where we dined
On one particular night he was rude / over the top to the staff . I shook my head and asked if we could move away from him .......he was 2 tables away.
He was right the food was crap but they tried and considering some pilgrims meals we had loved years prior this was ok.
For the next 600km whenever we came across each other he would tell me the best rest. in the town as he did the rounds at lunch time.

We had arrived in Vianna and were going to a place when suddenly i had my arm gripped.....
He was shaking his head and saying NO...don't go there in his French accent and lead me to a little room in a lane way.
He was correct as we found out later when all having a drink in the square.
Eventually HRH made sure she met him before she selected where we ate .
 
Last edited:

RemysMimi

Hooked on the Camino!!
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2018)
Frances or Portuguese (2020)
VENT WARNING. If you don't want to hear it, pass on this post.
I'm in a bad mood and probably will delete this when I get over it.
But for now, I need to say it.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back has fallen.
It may seem like such a small thing, but . . .

Please.

If you don't understand how to work Spanish washing machines, DON'T TOUCH THEM!

They are MUCH different from our machines in the USA.
It is not uncommon for a cycle to be longer than 1 hour, unlike our 20 minute cycles.
Forcing the door open mid-cycle CAN BREAK THE MACHINE, resulting in expensive repairs or replacement.

I have heard complaints from SEVERAL owners about pilgrims breaking the machine.
Even with signs up in English, people ignore them.
WTF!???
One albergue (Santa Celia) closed their kitchen for at least one season because the washer had been forced open and broken twice. Who cares? The pilgrims coming in from Jaca who have no place to cook their food or wash their clothes!

I have just had the experience of a group leader and lodging OWNER asking that the pilgrims do not try to operate their machine. The owner had stayed an extra hour and a half waiting for a rude pilgrim who sat at the bar and drank instead knowing she was waiting to put his wash in.

She finally had to go make dinner for her own family. The group leader was given instructions on how to operate the BRAND NEW MACHINE and asked the pilgrims to please not touch the machine, but ask for help.

THEY AGREED.

The group leader starts the machine, goes to make a sandwich and comes back to find the washer door forced open. Luckily he got it to work again.

This is a place where we have developed a very good relationship with the owners. It would be a shame if that were ruined by spoiled, irresponsible tourists.

Rude, demanding, ignorant, and self-absorbed people are on the rise on the Camino, in my opinion.

I've heard several albergue owners comment that the money just isn't worth putting up with the foolishness.

Ours is a budget trip. I state in the handouts "This is a budget trip, not a five-star vacation." "We are not a company, we are pilgrims helping pilgrims." But I've discovered that many do not bother to read the material I send out. That assumption is based on the constant questions I get about material I covered in the hand outs.

For the amount of time I put in planning, making reservations, and emailing group members, I end up making less than minimum wage. You couldn't stay 5 nights in an American hotel for what people pay for 3 weeks paid lodging with us (and many other groups). And as many nice people as I've had on my trips, it seems there's always one who threatens to ruin it for everyone. I'm just about worn out.
  • I have had a woman throw a tantrum and slam her suitcase all over antique furniture because she was tired.
  • I've had a woman leave Orisson at 9 am and not get into Roncesvalles until 9:45 pm, never thinking about the rest of the group worrying sick if she'd fallen off a cliff. Everyone else arrived by 2 pm. This went on until I threatened to boot her off the trip and cancel her lodging reservations.
  • I've had a man hang his dripping muddy wet raincoat on priceless antiques in a casa rural.
  • One guy came in drunk late at night and started a blazing fire in the fireplace, then went to bed leaving it burning. The hostess and her help had to come down and put out the fire, leading to no more firewood being left for pilgrims.
  • I watched an American man and his daughter START a fight and punch another pilgrim because the daughter lied about what was happening. If there had not been a mattress on the floor, the 2d man would have been dead, his head hit so hard on the floor.
  • I've had a woman who insisted she spoke Spanish be extremely rude to taxi drivers and hotel workers, embarrassing me and making me want to crawl into a hole.
  • I've had a woman scream in my face because she was unhappy about taxi service.
  • I've had a woman call me in a panic and insist I hurry and get to a village because she couldn't find her lodging. I caught a taxi and found her drinking Sangria in the square with her friends - she stayed there until after 9 pm.
  • I've had people insist on carrying 50 pounds too much, buy nick-nacks in nearly every village, increasing their weight, and refuse to pay pack transport, instead asking their fellow pilgrims to carry their excess weight, making other group members very uncomfortable to say no.
  • After MANY warnings in the written material I send out, I've had several people get angry because I've told my group leaders NOT to carry their heavy packs up stairs. I can't risk my group leader getting hurt and people just refuse to pack light.
  • I've had people complain the rooms were too small, too big, too hot, too cold, blah blah blah. The compared the pilgrim rooms at San Martin Pinario to jail cells. Really???
  • I've had people LEAVE their room at SMP to go to a different hotel, and refuse to check out and leave the key for other pilgrims who needed the rooms. In other words, since they had "paid for" the room, even though they weren't using it, they wouldn't give up the key.
Despite all the wonderful experiences I've had on the Camino (and there HAVE been more positive experiences than negative) in past years, I'm feeling "done."

It's hard to smile and stay positive in the face of increasing rudeness and self-centeredness.

Where is the Camino Spirit?
Oh, it's there, but you have to peel back layers to see it much anymore, in my experience.

I do know myself.

I have learned I don't do well with "difficult people" - aka people who are SUPPOSED to be adults but act like spoiled children. They wear me down and I'm just past the age of wanting to deal with their crap.

So I should retire, I'm thinking.

I'll be glad when the Camino is no longer a fad and pilgrims instead of tourists return to walk.
But then, it's said you can never go back..
Shame, that...

Sorry for venting, but I needed to get it out.

I feel like starting a campaign or writing a book about all the BAD THINGS that happen on the Camino just to get the traffic down.

:::crawling into a hole:::
*****
I also need to add that I have met and led WONDERFUL people on the Camino.
Many more of those than the negative type.
Most of the people in my groups have been polite, fun-loving, respectful, spiritual, and kind PILGRIMS who I have thoroughly enjoyed. It just seems there's always that one or two in each group that tries to ruin it.

I'm grateful for the conversation this has opened up.
I will leave the post up.

Today is a better day!
Thanks all.
So sorry to hear this. I did not have any of these experiences, but I know what you mean by mean, self-absorbed people on the camino. I stayed in hotels for the most part and used the wash-o-mats near by the hotels which were a lot less time and easy to use. I also traveled with a friend so we didn't have the group dynamic (thank God!) Hope your future Camino journeys are a lot less stressful. BREATHE!!!
 

Northern Laurie

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Northern Way (2017)
Yeah... you may be right. . . it CAN be like the Mickey Mouse Club, depending on the people in the group. I have had WONDERFUL groups of PILGRIMS, as well, and probably more of those than the others. Unfortunately, it is "the others" who leave the bad taste in one's mouth.

And I'm editing this post because you are SO right, but what can be done about it?
It is now a tourist destination, and some of that is the fault of people like me.
I long for a simpler Camino with fewer people who are grateful for what they get.

It was interesting serving at San Anton, Rebecca, because THOSE were the types of pilgrims we met. I would give them the spiel, " We have no hot water, (they'd nod), no heat (they'd nod), and no internet (they'd run out the gate!)" The ones who stayed longed for a quiet, simple rest. They were the ones meant for San Anton, and all appreciated its beauty and simplicity. It was a sweet sweet experience.

I think I need to go on pilgrimage to do penance for all these sinful feelings about others.
Or maybe I'll just go eat a bowl of ice cream and buy a paint gun.
Have you thought of setting up an anti-Refugio? Sit on a porch with a paint gun and a BIG bowl of ice cream and terrorize the beastly pilgrim.

I am so sorry this has become your experience. I can see the attraction to helping groups of people, particularly when the group is immersed in their spiritual growth. Sadly, some of us experience growing pains and like little children we (I) take them out on other people.

I can empathize with people not reading things-any kind of corporate communications tends to get quickly deleted in my office and I imagine similar phenomena occur in your situation.

Several people suggested a questionnaire-I have a slightly different suggestion: a treasure hunt, with prizes. Ask participants to find and report on different important pieces of information. Yes, this is a code for a test, but it is much more fun especially if there are prizes or riddles.

I got hijacked by joy thieves towards the end of my Camino: a couple who was incredibly loud, overly amorous, and tended to complain at length. Considering how much effort it took me to regain my sense of joy and wonder, when I could (and did) avoid them, I am not sure I could maintain my composure with such difficult people.

But i will tell you how I did battle with my joy-thieves. I spent an hour writing down everything I could remember that made me really happy along the Way: everything from seeing fish to having a bed to singing to the joy of running into people I’d met early on in my Camino. Remembering all the great things and seeing them on paper definitely helped me regain my happy pilgrim mojo. Perhaps a similar exercise when you are ready will help you?

And if not, there is always ice cream, paint ball, and wine.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
I've probably been immunised to a degree against taking most of the ills that pilgrims can complain of too seriously, from growing up in a tourist trap -- I mean, there are literally dozens of tourists every day outside my front door, taking holiday snaps, and not everyone behaves in the best manner.

Exposure to boorish and crass self-centredness is a part of my daily routine, including being forced to ask people to offer their seat to me as a handicapped person (it's far easier for me to walk than to stand), but over the decades of living in the midst of it, I've learned to just take it in stride.

So the Camino Francès nowadays is as nothing in these matters compared to what being at home "provides".

There's no point getting upset about these things, as the only thing that will change is to make yourself feel even worse.

And remember -- on the Francès some of these "tourists" will slowly shift into becoming pilgrims, including maybe if you give them the chance.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Nearly every year since 2006, often walking more than one route.
Well, it's over 3 years later and here I sit, once again reading over this thread and smiling.

God, I love you all so much!
Thank you for those who supported me so kindly and thanks to those who busted my chops too.

Mom is tottering around on a walker and a cane these days, living alone again. However, I'm stationed only 5 hours away, hoping not to get a call that she's fallen again. I'm still not comfortable getting so far away and taking the chance that I'd have to return suddenly if she falls or gets ill again. It's a little stressful being the only child left to care for her.

My Morton's Neuroma is better, though not completely healed. A new pair of shoes and good inserts have helped.

In the past week, I have had 3 people ask me if I'm leading a group in the Spring. They're very interested. I also have two 14 year old grandchildren who I'd like to take. I thought maybe not THIS Spring, but 2021, then realized that will be a Holy Year, right?

So . . . I'm mulling it over. . .

Far, far in the distance, I hear the call of the Camino again . . . faintly, but it's there...
 
Camino(s) past & future
Lourdes/Burgos/SdeC 77; Frances 12,15,17; Finisterre 17; Lourdes/Aragones 18; Meseta 19.
In the past week, I have had 3 people ask me if I'm leading a group in the Spring. They're very interested. I also have two 14 year old grandchildren who I'd like to take. I thought maybe not THIS Spring, but 2021, then realized that will be a Holy Year, right?

So . . . I'm mulling it over. . .

Far, far in the distance, I hear the call of the Camino again . . . faintly, but it's there...
Keep me posted.
 

Nana6

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
France ( 2020)
Well, it's over 3 years later and here I sit, once again reading over this thread and smiling.

God, I love you all so much!
Thank you for those who supported me so kindly and thanks to those who busted my chops too.

Mom is tottering around on a walker and a cane these days, living alone again. However, I'm stationed only 5 hours away, hoping not to get a call that she's fallen again. I'm still not comfortable getting so far away and taking the chance that I'd have to return suddenly if she falls or gets ill again. It's a little stressful being the only child left to care for her.

My Morton's Neuroma is better, though not completely healed. A new pair of shoes and good inserts have helped.

In the past week, I have had 3 people ask me if I'm leading a group in the Spring. They're very interested. I also have two 14 year old grandchildren who I'd like to take. I thought maybe not THIS Spring, but 2021, then realized that will be a Holy Year, right?

So . . . I'm mulling it over. . .

Far, far in the distance, I hear the call of the Camino again . . . faintly, but it's there...
I understand your concern for your mother. I went through the same with mine. She would not give up her own place until she fell and broke her pelvis Then, she had to come to my house and lots of rehab facilities.
I wish you and your mother well 🙏

Taking your grandchildren on the Camino would be fantastic. Let me know if you put a group together. I have 2 grandkids that want to go.😊
 
Camino(s) past & future
Nearly every year since 2006, often walking more than one route.
I understand your concern for your mother. I went through the same with mine. She would not give up her own place until she fell and broke her pelvis Then, she had to come to my house and lots of rehab facilities.
I wish you and your mother well 🙏

Taking your grandchildren on the Camino would be fantastic. Let me know if you put a group together. I have 2 grandkids that want to go.😊
thank you :)
I'm putting a group together for Holy Year - May 2021
I'm rebuilding my website today and tomorrow
www.anniewalkers.com
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances(2006) Portugues(2013)
San Salvador (2017) Ingles (2019)
thank you :)
I'm putting a group together for Holy Year - May 2021
I'm rebuilding my website today and tomorrow
www.anniewalkers.com
I just read about the proposed walk. Are you not thinking of posting about it in a new thread? It deserves to be shining on its own...
 

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