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Three pilgrims lost in the snow -- with a happy ending

#1
Once again, the search and rescue teams of Navarra had to undertake operations to find the three pilgrims who called in at 5 pm Sunday saying they were lost between SJPP and Roncesvalles. The snow was hampering the operations, and the search was called off on late Sunday night.

http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/2391817/0/buscan-peregrinos/coreanos/perdidos-camino-santiago/

But it looks like they found them yesterday, all in good health.

As people have said so many times, the Camino is not dangerous, it is not risky, you don't need to be a mountaineer. But you do need to have common sense! Buen camino, Laurie
 
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#2
I'm sorry but anyone who was around SJPdP over the weekend (28/2/15) didn't need to be warned about the weather, they just needed to open their eyes. The roads were closed to everything but emergency vehicles and the wind was blowing at a steady 60km/h. All of the television coverage was about closed ski resorts due to heavy snowfall and the risk of avalanches. What more do you need to know to stay put?
 
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#5
He, he, some people are simply moving disaster areas...
 

Bajaracer

Camino Frances 2013 Jun-Jul SJPDP to Finisterre
Camino(s) past & future
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#6
Koreans are also targets for theft because they are known to carry large amounts of cash.
I'm Asian, (Filipino) it seems that common sense isn't very common among asians.
 
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M

Mark Lee

Guest
#7
Like I said before, I'm all for doing one's own thing, but not when someone has to risk their arse to save the arse of someone that voluntarily puts themselves in a dangerous situation.
Years ago when I worked in law enforcement we had very bad flooding in the county where I worked due to high rains. Two major highways in the county had sections where rivers were flowing over them. Any car that tried to cross would be in danger of being swept away. We put up barricades and signs to block the highways, but ended up having to man those spots 24/7 until the flood water receded due to people in vehicles attempting to drive around the barricades and even in some instances completely moving the barricades out of the way in order to drive past.
One thing in life that is a constant is people doing stupid things despite being warned not to.
 
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#8
On the 22th of July i will fly to Santander and than go by bus to Oviedo; i will arrive there about 19.00 hrs
and probably the albergue will be full (and the comments are not very well). Any suggestions for a (cheap) place for an individual to sleep?
Hello Willemstad H,
I've booked the Hostal Vestutla for 26/27 May 2015 at a cost of 35 Euros through Booking. Com.
Buen Camino

OOOPS wrong thread
 

SYates

Camino Fossil AD 1999
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...
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#11
I don't know if the Pilgrims Office in Saint Jean has weather warnings and advice in various languages. But it seems to me that if pilgrims are specifically warned not to walk and then have to be rescued they should pay the full cost of the rescue operation.
They cover normally at least French, Spanish and English plus there is also often a pilgrim around to translate. Buen and Safe Camino! SY
 

SYates

Camino Fossil AD 1999
Camino(s) past & future
First: Camino Francés 1999
...
Last: Camino Inglés 2018

Now: http://egeria.house/
#13
They really should - laugh- but as more and more Koreans are doing the Camino there is hope they come back as volunteers in some shape or form! SY
 
M

Mark Lee

Guest
#14
I'm sorry but anyone who was around SJPdP over the weekend (28/2/15) didn't need to be warned about the weather, they just needed to open their eyes. The roads were closed to everything but emergency vehicles and the wind was blowing at a steady 60km/h. All of the television coverage was about closed ski resorts due to heavy snowfall and the risk of avalanches. What more do you need to know to stay put?
I agree Don. Why would one have to be warned that is a hazardous time to walk over a mountain?

Pyrenees+winter+snow+high winds+reduced visibility=possible "peregrino popsicle".....
 
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(2014): SJpdP-Astorga
(2015): Astorga-SdC
(2016) May Pamplona-Moratinos; Sept.:Burgos-SdC
(2016): August/Sept: Camino San Olav (Burgos-Covarubbias), Burgos-Sarria
(2017): May: Portuguese; Sept: Pamplona-SdC
#15
I don't know if the Pilgrims Office in Saint Jean has weather warnings and advice in various languages. But it seems to me that if pilgrims are specifically warned not to walk and then have to be rescued they should pay the full cost of the rescue operation.
Completely agree. A few incidents followed by high charges, and lesson should be learned all over the place. To me, living in the Arctic, it is amazing to watch how people with no knowledge of the climate are behaving.
 

rometimed

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
SJPdP: May/June 2015; English Route Nov 2015; Lycian Way Oct 2015; Coast to Coast Aug/Sep 2015; West Highland Way July 2015; Hadrians Wall June 2015; Westweg Jul/Aug 2015..... ..... .... ... .. . SJPdP May/June 2020; A Coruna 2020... ... .. . SJPdP May/June 2025... .. . SJPdP May/June 2030... .. . SJPdP May/June 2035... .. .
#17
Camino(s) past & future
CF11, CF12, CP13, CF14, CA15, S.Anton15, CF15, CI15
Ditch Pig16, CF17, CP17, CdN, CM, CF18, LePuy19
#21
Maybe they just need a card with the warning in many languages that they show to pilgrims when necessary?
Al, I totally agree with you, SY and JW about crafting some general warning information in different languages to hand out to Asian pilgrims in SJPdP (maybe for some cheeky English reader as well) but in the case of this recent storm: imagine you are standing in a driving rain storm, the wind is howling and the road signs say "barriere emergencie" what do you do walk through the water of a flooding creek, climb 1200 meters to the top of a mountain, I think not!
 
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#22
Pearson, a leader in education (a UK but global company, and one that pays my bills) released it's report on best educational systems the world. www.edudemic.com>Trends. The top 4 are Asian countries and they all speak English very well. The city near me (NYC) will take in 54 million tourists this year. The leading foreign tourist will be Chinese. They are educated, well-spoken and savvy. This is the second thread on Asians that I have seen on this forum that borders on a slight to Asians and their overall language skills and sophistication in the world arena.
 
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CF11, CF12, CP13, CF14, CA15, S.Anton15, CF15, CI15
Ditch Pig16, CF17, CP17, CdN, CM, CF18, LePuy19
#23
No one said "they" are not sophisticated but some of "them" obviously lack common sense in their drive to do "their Camino." Chinese does not = Korean, that being said I don't think this thread is a racist rant because all my life my father would have lead me into one those abysses in his unrelenting drive to "git'r dun."
 
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#24
I sense in posts above a frustration about people not paying attention or not being aware of dangers. I am sure that no post above implies a global criticism to any particular group. However as rightly may be observed we do seem to have repeats of Koreans being rescued every year. I'm sure that observations are being made to highlight what happens and to stimulate possible ways of helping alleviate the problem.
 

Brisbanegee

A champion is one who gets up when they can't.
Camino(s) past & future
Camino de Santiago (2015)
#25
Hi all!

We started on 1st March and were told to stick to option 2, the road. A couple of people decided to tackle the snow and told us they thought they were going to die.

At 07:30 on 2nd, Police asked if we had seen them, of which we didn't and it was bloody cold leaving Roncesvalles as you can see.

Loving the experience and common sense is required if you value you and others lives.

G
 

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#26
Great photo and at least the main road was cleared on Monday, enjoy your Camino. I'll do mine vicariously for the time being, thank you very much.
 
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Camino(s) past & future
cycled from Pamplona Sep 2015;Frances, walked from St Jean 2017.
#27
I don't know if the Pilgrims Office in Saint Jean has weather warnings and advice in various languages. But it seems to me that if pilgrims are specifically warned not to walk and then have to be rescued they should pay the full cost of the rescue operation.
Johnnie I agree 100% - all these fools have done is give all pilgrims a bad name.
 

Mikel Olivares

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
2012, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. Camino Francés.
2016, Camino Portugués from Oporto
2017, San Salvador.
#29
Hi all.
Most pilgrims who are lost are young Koreans.
All young Koreans I've met spoke very good English.
Most young Koreans living and studying in Europe. England and Germany especially.
 

Len Dacombe

Len from Canada
Camino(s) past & future
April/May 2015 & September 2015
#30
Hi all!

We started on 1st March and were told to stick to option 2, the road. A couple of people decided to tackle the snow and told us they thought they were going to die.

At 07:30 on 2nd, Police asked if we had seen them, of which we didn't and it was bloody cold leaving Roncesvalles as you can see.

Loving the experience and common sense is required if you value you and others lives.

G
Okay folks. I'm flying out of Winnipeg Manitoba Canada of April 5th, I was really hoping that once I had said goodbye to the snow we have here I wouldn't have to say hello to snow again until next December. Any extra effort you can put in to crank those temperatures up for my Camino start on April 9th out of SJPP would be greatly appreciated!! :>)

That picture, while beautiful, made my heart sink a little....
 

domigee

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF(x4), Fisterra/Muxía(x2), VdlP, Jerusalem, VF, Walsingham,
C inglés. 2019? Who knows! ;-)
#32
Hi all.
Most pilgrims who are lost are young Koreans.
All young Koreans I've met spoke very good English.
Most young Koreans living and studying in Europe. England and Germany especially.
Just thinking.... Very cold and lots of snow in South Korea, they actually wear fur inside their boots and coats.... Maybe,mjust maybe they think they can easily cope with the Pyrenees.... Wrong of course but maybe it LOOKS so much easier than what they have at home.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Several alone and with children
#33
Koreans are also targets for theft because they are known to carry large amounts of cash.
I'm Asian, (Filipino) it seems that common sense isn't very common among asians.
YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Bajaracer

Camino Frances 2013 Jun-Jul SJPDP to Finisterre
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (2013) Jun-Jul SJPDP to Finisterre
#34
I'm just stating the obvious, which group are known for having to be rescued the most? Which group are known for carrying large amounts of cash and getting robbed of it?
 

grayland

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Yes
#35
Gently Folks....it is very easy for this thread to cross the line.

Please note that Bajaracer has pointed out that he is Asian and is posting about his own ethnic group.

It may be best if the discussion would stick with a general discussion of people who ignore the warnings..for any reason...and not single out any particular group.
Thanks.
 
Camino(s) past & future
St Jean to Santiago (2012, 2014, 2015, 2017)
Aosta to Rome - Via Francigena (2018)
#39
Hello all,

I am just as concerned about these tragedies as do all of you, but I'm also concerned about some of the assumptions expressed here. I am a Korean-American woman who has walked the full French Way twice in the last three years and will be doing my third starting May 7. Most Koreans do not speak or understand English well, although they have studied the language for many years. Most Korean pilgrims come straight from Korea with their Korean guide book and walk the Camino in a fairly brisk pace and go home. I agree they should have more common sense about the bad weather, but some young Korean have done a lot of winter mountain climbing and probably do not understand their limits well. I will post the warnings on the Korean Camino site and hope the problems abate.
 
#41
Hello all,

I am just as concerned about these tragedies as do all of you, but I'm also concerned about some of the assumptions expressed here. I am a Korean-American woman who has walked the full French Way twice in the last three years and will be doing my third starting May 7. Most Koreans do not speak or understand English well, although they have studied the language for many years. Most Korean pilgrims come straight from Korea with their Korean guide book and walk the Camino in a fairly brisk pace and go home. I agree they should have more common sense about the bad weather, but some young Korean have done a lot of winter mountain climbing and probably do not understand their limits well. I will post the warnings on the Korean Camino site and hope the problems abate.
Thanks Kaylee - just an idea but why don't you contact the Pilgrims' Office in Saint Jean and offer to translate their weather warning for them. If you have time or know of other Korean pilgrims who speak English or Spanish perhaps you could also translate the Santiago Pilgrims' Office website? If so e mail me please johnniewalker-santiago@hotmail.com
 
Camino(s) past & future
St Jean to Santiago (2012, 2014, 2015, 2017)
Aosta to Rome - Via Francigena (2018)
#42
Thanks Kaylee - just an idea but why don't you contact the Pilgrims' Office in Saint Jean and offer to translate their weather warning for them. If you have time or know of other Korean pilgrims who speak English or Spanish perhaps you could also translate the Santiago Pilgrims' Office website? If so e mail me please johnniewalker-santiago@hotmail.com
Great idea! I'd be both honored and love to do any translation work for the office. Thanks for the suggestion! I will email separately.
 

hampshire!tim

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2013), Ingles (2014), Finisterre (2015)
#43
I'm with @Bajaracer but I'd go a bit further.
Pick any nationality you like (including mine, English) - there's precious few of any of them that exhibit much common sense ! ;-)
This forum must have an uncommon percentage of the one's who do.
 

Felipe

Veteran Member
#45
Firefighters from Burguete rescued last Tuesday four pilgrims in the SJPP-Roncesvalles stage. Three of them were cyclist who left SJPP with good weather, but they were unaware that Col de Lepoeder had heavy snow; they had to carry their bikes and were exhausted. They called 112-SOS Navarra from the Izandorre shelter, requesting advice; but the service took no risks and sent a rescue team in an off-road vehicle, that went as near as possible, and then walked to Izandorre.
Another pilgrim was also rescued the same day, same area; no more details are provided.
Judging by the photo, the condition of the path and weather were really difficult. See the note (in Spanish) here
 
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Mysticl

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances May (2015) - pending
#46
Hmmm only 3 weeks til we leave and 4 before we start walking... maybe I won't be going over the pyrenees after all ...
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
#47
I don't know if the Pilgrims Office in Saint Jean has weather warnings and advice in various languages. But it seems to me that if pilgrims are specifically warned not to walk and then have to be rescued they should pay the full cost of the rescue operation.
There was some public debate about this in France some years ago, after a string of multiple stoopid mountain-hiker incidents in the Alps, but the outcome was that the pompiers and gendarmes and other rescue organisations would simply carry on rescuing all stoopid people as before, regardless of any potential changes to the Law, and they asked everyone to just shut up and let them do their jobs.

Hard to come up with a counter-argument to that ...
 
W

whariwharangi

Guest
#48
Firefighters from Burguete rescued last Tuesday four pilgrims in the SJPP-Roncesvalles stage. Three of them were cyclist who left SJPP with good weather, but they were unaware that Col de Lepoeder had heavy snow; they had to carry their bikes and were exhausted. They called 112-SOS Navarra from the Izandorre shelter, requesting advice; but the service took no risks and sent a rescue team in an off-road vehicle, that went as near as possible, and then walked to Izandorre.
Another pilgrim was also rescued the same day, same area; no more details are provided.
Judging by the photo, the condition of the path and weather were really difficult. See the note (in Spanish) here
Judging by the photo, the photographer had to work to find a spot where the bomberos were actually walking in snow ... see the bare road behind them.
 
A

aug2012pilgrim

Guest
#49
Gosh, this thread is borderline racist. I can't quite believe this. "Dumb as having chips without vinegar"? Such condescending and narrow-minded comments. Mind you that Korean pilgrims are often very devoted due to their deep religious belief. It's not something the average pilgrim who walks to "challenge themselves", "find themselves", "hook up with single pilgrims" or "enjoy a cheap holiday and drink wine" could possibly understand. There's really no reason for me to stay in this forum. I'll leave you and your comments alone.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances, 2013
Camino del Norte a Chimayó (USA), 2015
Camino Portugues, 2017
#50
Just for the sake of experimentation, I typed the following into both Bing Translator and Google Translate:
The Route Napoleon is closed due to inclement weather conditions. Use the Valcarlos route instead.

The Korean translation they generated were:
Bing: 경로나폴레옹은험악 한기상조건에따라닫힙니다.Valcarlos경로대신사용합니다.
Google: 루트 나폴레옹 인해 궂은 날씨 조건에 폐쇄된다. 대신 Valcarlos 경로를 사용합니다.

If there are any Korean speakers on the forum who can verify the accuracy of these translations, please let us know.

As limited as tools like Bing Translator and Google Translate are, they might be helpful in situations like this.
 

Bajaracer

Camino Frances 2013 Jun-Jul SJPDP to Finisterre
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (2013) Jun-Jul SJPDP to Finisterre
#51
There was some public debate about this in France some years ago, after a string of multiple stoopid mountain-hiker incidents in the Alps, but the outcome was that the pompiers and gendarmes and other rescue organisations would simply carry on rescuing all stoopid people as before, regardless of any potential changes to the Law, and they asked everyone to just shut up and let them do their jobs.

Hard to come up with a counter-argument to that ...
The reason why they don't fine people for putting themselves in bad situations and requiring rescue, is that they won't call if they are in a dire situation if they know up front that they will be fined.
The agencies tasked with rescuing people depend on funding based on how many times they go out on calls throughout the year, if the call numbers go down, so goes their funding for salaries, vehicles, etc.
 

KinkyOne

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
I'am not perfect, but I'm always myself!!!
#53
Firefighters from Burguete rescued last Tuesday four pilgrims in the SJPP-Roncesvalles stage. Three of them were cyclist who left SJPP with good weather, but they were unaware that Col de Lepoeder had heavy snow; they had to carry their bikes and were exhausted. They called 112-SOS Navarra from the Izandorre shelter, requesting advice; but the service took no risks and sent a rescue team in an off-road vehicle, that went as near as possible, and then walked to Izandorre.
Another pilgrim was also rescued the same day, same area; no more details are provided.
Judging by the photo, the condition of the path and weather were really difficult. See the note (in Spanish) here
I can't believe the weather was completely the opposite in SJPdP when they headed for Orisson/Roncesvalles. Shear stupidity, excuse my French...
 

KinkyOne

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
I'am not perfect, but I'm always myself!!!
#54
Judging by the photo, the photographer had to work to find a spot where the bomberos were actually walking in snow ... see the bare road behind them.
I don't see it as the road. It's actually the circle without snow under the spruce.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
#56
The reason why they don't fine people for putting themselves in bad situations and requiring rescue, is that they won't call if they are in a dire situation if they know up front that they will be fined.
The agencies tasked with rescuing people depend on funding based on how many times they go out on calls throughout the year, if the call numbers go down, so goes their funding for salaries, vehicles, etc.
That's really not how things work in France -- and I'm fairly sure not in Spain either.

Yes, fines do exist in France -- but you really need to have engaged in some deliberately stupid behaviour, contrary to official advice received from the gendarmerie or whomever (and by "advice" I mean "instructions"), rather than just to have done something stupid all on your own, before you're liable to be taken to Court over it.

And this is entirely independent of the public funding that is provided to these organisations, that are organised around the concept of public service and public protection and public safety.

---

And besides :

Really ? You think people won't call the emergency services if their lives are in danger, just because they're worried about a fine ?

Even if that were so, it's basically just another argument against the broad introduction of such fines !!!

Emergency services should never become a privilege for those with fat wallets.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
#57
I can't believe the weather was completely the opposite in SJPdP when they headed for Orisson/Roncesvalles. Shear stupidity, excuse my French...
Oh really, "stupidity" ?

Did you bother to, I dunno, read the article ?

"Los tres peregrinos habían salido por la mañana de Saint Jean Pied de Port (Francia) con previsiones de buen tiempo, pero, al parecer, no les habían advertido de la gran acumulación de nieve en el Collado de Lepoeder y en el camino hacia el refugio"

They were given a forecast of "good weather" and nobody warned them about the snow on the ground.

In other words they were given bad info prior to setting out from SJPP. Is someone "stupid" because they're given false data ???

I don't see it as the road. It's actually the circle without snow under the spruce.
It's obviously the road.
 

Bajaracer

Camino Frances 2013 Jun-Jul SJPDP to Finisterre
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (2013) Jun-Jul SJPDP to Finisterre
#58
That's really not how things work in France -- and I'm fairly sure not in Spain either.

Yes, fines do exist in France -- but you really need to have engaged in some deliberately stupid behaviour, contrary to official advice received from the gendarmerie or whomever (and by "advice" I mean "instructions"), rather than just to have done something stupid all on your own, before you're liable to be taken to Court over it.

And this is entirely independent of the public funding that is provided to these organisations, that are organised around the concept of public service and public protection and public safety.

---

And besides :

Really ? You think people won't call the emergency services if their lives are in danger, just because they're worried about a fine ?

Even if that were so, it's basically just another argument against the broad introduction of such fines !!!

Emergency services should never become a privilege for those with fat wallets.
Perhaps signs need to be installed at every trailhead and river put-in that read: “THINK about your actions and use good judgement. If a rescue is initiated, you may be liable for of the costs of your rescue.” (in multiple languages) But the truth is, no matter how many signs are installed and how many attempts are made to educate people, there’s no way to prevent some people from getting in over their heads.

http://newwest.net/topic/article/rescue_fines_cant_teach_people_good_judgement/C564/L564/
 
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JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Camino(s) past & future
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
#59
I am aware of the different approach to these questions in the US, as well as the UK -- but regardless of the politics in those countries, what's relevant for the Camino is how things happen in Spain, France, Portugal, and I guess Andorra.

The continental European approach is to treat this rescuing as a public service, funded by universal public taxation. And to value people's lives more than money. And educate as many people as possible about the associated risks, and to be as active as possible on the preventative side of things.

But not all things are equal -- the Camino Ways are ancient routes within a support network that has been built up over centuries of time ; whereas many hiking trails in the US traverse bare wilderness lands with zero inhabitants. Even such a popular hiking trail as the PCT involves tackling some very lengthy stretches of bare wilderness, such as are virtually non-existent in Western Europe.

My point was that things are just different over here --- but the underlying cause of these differences is geographic, not political. The public European safety nets have a finer mesh, because the land is less stark and more populous ; and the actual full wilderness zones are fewer and typically smaller, and thus more easily managed by the rescue services.

Hence, routine rescue operations will be less costly, and exceptional rescue operations less frequent.

I suppose from the financial perspective -- it's easier in Europe than in the US to incorporate the stoopidity factor into the normal running costs and budget of our rescue organisations.
 

KinkyOne

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
I'am not perfect, but I'm always myself!!!
#60
Oh really, "stupidity" ?

Did you bother to, I dunno, read the article ?

"Los tres peregrinos habían salido por la mañana de Saint Jean Pied de Port (Francia) con previsiones de buen tiempo, pero, al parecer, no les habían advertido de la gran acumulación de nieve en el Collado de Lepoeder y en el camino hacia el refugio"

They were given a forecast of "good weather" and nobody warned them about the snow on the ground.

In other words they were given bad info prior to setting out from SJPP. Is someone "stupid" because they're given false data ???



It's obviously the road.
Thanks Jabba, but it seems like the link to the article disappeared, I can't find it in this thread anymore :confused:
 

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