Train Derailment at Santiago

[Tia Valeria]

At 22.00 (Spanish time) tonight 31st July there is a vigil (Source rtve.es)

..........
Also tonight, at 22:00 p.m., the Plaza del Obradoiro will host a vigil called by the parishes of Santiago de Compostela.

The Compostela Archdiocese sources said, it will be a "very symbolic, silence, prayer and light of hope" Act, that it will symbolize with the lighting of candles.

 

[Peter Robins]

several others have been moved out of intensive care, which now totals 22. 70 in total are still in hospital

total now 66, of which 15 in intensive care

61/13, of which 1 child - so encouragingly numbers continue to fall

 

[Peter Robins]

photos of the improvised altar in Obradoiro
http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/album/sant ... 218877.htm

and there was an act of homage today in the Bonaval park
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santiago/ ... ia-819217/
http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/album/sant ... 884149.htm
and short video
http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/video/gali ... 452656.htm

 

[Peter Robins]

and one week later, the locals went out with candles, whilst the train went very slowly past
http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/video/gali ... 597834.htm

Afterwards, they walked in pilgrimage along the Camino Real, which is the route of the Camino Sanabres/Ruta de la Plata, to the cathedral.
http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/ga ... 467385.htm

 

[jirit]

Some interesting comments about the train crash in Santiago

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... uman-error

The author suggests that "of a decade of oversized dreams, fast money and fast trains" may have contributed to the crash (not with standing the fact that the driver was speeding, and talking on the phone moments before the accident). After walking the Via de la Plata this past spring, and witnessing first hand both high speed rail and super highway construction slicing up the Spanish countryside, I could not help but agree.

 

[Peter Robins]

The author suggests that "of a decade of oversized dreams, fast money and fast trains" may have contributed to the crash (not with standing the fact that the driver was speeding, and talking on the phone moments before the accident). After walking the Via de la Plata this past spring, and witnessing first hand both high speed rail and super highway construction slicing up the Spanish countryside, I could not help but agree.

what's the alternative though? Should Galicia remain cut off and economically backward, with mules and ox carts? Should Santiago be just a museum for affluent outsiders to photograph on brief visits, or should it modernise like any other city? Should Spain keep its old trundle trains that took forever to get anywhere?

There's undoubtedly been some white elephants in its recent construction boom, but economic development and integration with the rest of Europe has been a key objective for Spain since the end of the Franco era. Improved road and rail links have been an important part of that, even if you and I may prefer to walk on dust tracks and regret that so many roads have been tarred.

 

[stevenjarvis]

Residents of Angrois , where the derailment occurred, followed the passing of a train at the same time as that derailed a week previously with a pilgrimage to Praza de Obradorio. I did have a link.....here, I think ( second edit !) http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/ga ... 467385.htm

 

[stevenjarvis]

Some interesting comments about the train crash in Santiago

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... uman-error

The author suggests that "of a decade of oversized dreams, fast money and fast trains" may have contributed to the crash (not with standing the fact that the driver was speeding, and talking on the phone moments before the accident). After walking the Via de la Plata this past spring, and witnessing first hand both high speed rail and super highway construction slicing up the Spanish countryside, I could not help but agree.

I understand your sentiment here but also recognise the inevitable march of progress, 'twas ever thus. I first traveled from Paris to Algeciras ( near Gibraltar ) in 1977 on a train known as the Iberia Express, which took 36 hours ! At Irun/ Hendaye , I recall the carriage being lifted to allow the wheels to be changed as the Franco had preferred a different gauge to France.
Adequate infrastructure and economic development is vital to provide our first world expectations. Sustainable, considered and sensitive development ideally. I imagine that many of the residents on the Via de La Plata were APPALLED at the Romans carving up the countryside with their metaled (?) roads and bridges....
I used the railways all over Galicia earlier this year, and was grateful for the opportunity, the service and their value for money.
The tragic derailment will make them even safer.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Cell phone distraction may have played a part in the tragedy. I have never seen railroad employees NOT use cell phones while working, including the engineer very visible in the single-car coach to Zaragoza. The conductor was talking almost full time.

 

[Peter Robins]

I imagine that many of the residents on the Via de La Plata were APPALLED at the Romans carving up the countryside with their metaled (?) roads and bridges....

I doubt that - the idea that 'countryside' should be 'pretty' is modern

The tragic derailment will make them even safer.

indeed. This sort of accident inevitably (and rightly) puts the spotlight on rail safety, but longer-term stats give the incidence of passenger fatalities in Spain at <0.4 per billion passenger km http://www.era.europa.eu/Document-Regis ... %20web.pdf
By contrast, roughly the no of fatalities in this crash occurs on Spain's roads every fortnight.

 

[jirit]

I am not against progress. My wife and I in fact used the same train and route to travel from Santiago back to Madrid which I may add, never got over the speed of 125km throughout all of Galicia.

What troubles me in the march to get things done, to build out a network of super highways and fast trains that some things get over looked. Things that make you wonder why.

For example a 4-5 km of rail track whereby there is no advanced control features in place, where people had previous suggested could be a problem, where trains that shuddered as their past through this section, etc.

That section of track given the design and location is equivalent to exiting off a express highway while doing 200 km/hour onto basically a rural country road. An exit that is basically 90 degrees. Yes the track leading up to this "exit ramp" is 4 km in length but image how long it takes for a train to travel 4 km when going 200 km/hour? Less that most people spend talking on their mobile phones.

People complained but others it appeared were prepared to overlook this in the name of progress.

"It cost too much money and it would delay things", were some of the comments I read.

I am not against progress - good progress to improve the lives of many but not at the expense of some.

A lot of people paid dearly last week.

 

[Peter Robins]

several others have been moved out of intensive care, which now totals 22. 70 in total are still in hospital

total now 66, of which 15 in intensive care

61/13, of which 1 child - so encouragingly numbers continue to fall

57/11

 

[stevenjarvis]

good progress to improve the lives of many but not at the expense of some.

A lot of people paid dearly last week.

I couldn't agree more, and should have said, these things should be safe.

I imagine that many of the residents on the Via de La Plata were APPALLED at the Romans carving up the countryside with their metaled (?) roads and bridges....

I doubt that - the idea that 'countryside' should be 'pretty' is modern

Quite, however there has always been resistance to change and nostalgia. I remember Chester before it was ruined with those awful City walls......

Great to see people recovering.

 

[Peter Robins]

I remember Chester before it was ruined with those awful City walls......

yes, and Santiago before it was ruined with all that baroque stuff ...

 

[Peter Robins]

Cell phone distraction may have played a part in the tragedy. I have never seen railroad employees NOT use cell phones while working, including the engineer very visible in the single-car coach to Zaragoza. The conductor was talking almost full time.

the judge ruled this afternoon that, although the timing and place of the call was 'unfortunate' given what transpired, it was part of the normal work of a train journey and could not be held to be responsible for the crash.
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santiago/ ... ia-819940/

 

[Peter Robins]

What troubles me in the march to get things done, to build out a network of super highways and fast trains that some things get over looked. Things that make you wonder why.

For example a 4-5 km of rail track whereby there is no advanced control features in place
People complained but others it appeared were prepared to overlook this in the name of progress.

"It cost too much money and it would delay things", were some of the comments I read.

according to the head of Renfe, it is not a question of cost, but that this line, opened last year, is still in a transition phase; it will not be a fully operational AVE line until 2018. There are some outstanding issues with the ERTMS ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_R ... ent_System ) to resolve, but this should be complete by the end of the year
http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/ga ... 1P8998.htm

At least in what has been made public, the driver has admitted responsibility from the start; at no point has he tried to pass the buck on to distracting phone calls, or missing automatic braking systems, or anything else.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

In the United States transportation employees who use cell phones on the job are usually fired. I am not sure why two-way radios would be permitted, as with airplanes, and cell phones banned. Perhaps it is because the two-way radio is always used for official purposes, and cell phones are subject to abuse. Operating equipment requires multi-tasking, so a cell phone call would rarely be the the primary cause of an accident, but, again in the U.S., it could be a contributory cause under U.S. law and the National Transportation Safety Board investigation process.

In a retrospective lesson from the accident, it would make sense to me not to distract train engineers with a cell call, particularly when approaching dangerous areas like cities. I won't be surprised if Renfe changes some communication procedures, whether the judge rules out a cause or not.

 

[JohnnieWalker]

When do we let this go?

 

[JALAN JAUH]

Thanks Ivar and Peter for keeping us in the forum of the latest happenings of this terrible tragedy. I do realise that the insurance will provide financial assistance and will take off the immediate pressure off the families suffering from the tragedy.

[* We could set up something in the forum]

I agree that the collection and equitable dispensation of any donations from an independent concerned body such as this excellent forum we take part in can be a problem; Ivar your comments has struck a chord where the forum members can participate. I feel very passionate as I left Santiago by air on the only available seat on the afternoon of the tragedy as could not get a seat later in order to see the celebration week, these were cancelled but left an empty feeling after experiencing the happy evenings of the 22nd and 23rd July. We could send a letter or card from members expressing our condolences; we could petition the Cathedral to grant the deceased a type of Compostela to acknowledge that they were on their way to the St James festival; or similar, these efforts would take time and effort but should incur no financial outlay.

The families should know we care.

Joe

 

[Peter Robins]

more on the use of phones in an article today http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/ga ... 2P9992.htm
"Using a phone? But that's why they give us one!"

 

[jirit]

more on the use of phones in an article today http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/ga ... 2P9992.htm
"Using a phone? But that's why they give us one!"

I think we will find that it was much more than using a mobile phone.

I think people we learn that the so called control system that was in place for this section of track was not in full operation, that this section of the track was poorly marked and designed and the equipment and material used by the train engineers is mostly low tech - simple sheets of paper to guide them on the speed between each section of the journey.

What is most alarming is the max speed for the section of track before the accident is rated at 200 km which then drops down to only 80 km though out the curve. The change is speed occurs at the 84.1 km mark, a few meters just beyond the tunnel, and only meters before where the accident occurred. Without a fully operational system in place, a train operator driving the train at the legal full speed at 200 km, that is distracted by a phone call, gets no obvious audio or visual warnings that the speed should be reduced to 80 km/hr unless he or she happens to check a sheet a paper. There is nothing on the track to indicate this (unlike highway signs that indicate a need to slow down) and if the system was not fully operational as some reports now suggest there was probably no electronic or audio indicators too.

If this is case, then this is very troubling.

 

[TerryB]

When do we let this go?

I think I concur with John.
The conductor (and/or others) will , at some point, come to trial. At present much of the media information is speculation and we must not forget there are relatives and friends grieving. They, and we, need space to come to terms with events.
"I am human! We are all human!" says it all.

May the Lord grant His peace, which passes all understanding, to those who mourn.
Blessings
Terry

 

[piogaw]

I have the chance to go to the crash site 3 times in the last 2 weeks to pay my respect and to pray for all the victims of this terrible tragedy. It is such a somber feeling to remember when i passed through this site on my via de la plata walk this past march. It is so sad.

May the victims who died rest in peace and may god give comfort to all the surviving passengers and their families. May the blessing of god be upon the villagers of angrois and the emergency services who rushed to help save the lives of the survivors for which there would have been more deaths.

Que dios os bendiga.

 

[jirit]

I think we will find that it was much more than using a mobile phone.

I think people we learn that the so called control system that was in place for this section of track was not in full operation, that this section of the track was poorly marked and designed and the equipment and material used by the train engineers is mostly low tech - simple sheets of paper to guide them on the speed between each section of the journey.

What is most alarming is the max speed for the section of track before the accident is rated at 200 km which then drops down to only 80 km though out the curve. The change is speed occurs at the 84.1 km mark, a few meters just beyond the tunnel, and only meters before where the accident occurred. Without a fully operational system in place, a train operator driving the train at the legal full speed at 200 km, that is distracted by a phone call, gets no obvious audio or visual warnings that the speed should be reduced to 80 km/hr unless he or she happens to check a sheet a paper. There is nothing on the track to indicate this (unlike highway signs that indicate a need to slow down) and if the system was not fully operational as some reports now suggest there was probably no electronic or audio indicators too.

If this is case, then this is very troubling.

The latest news indicates some of the blame for this very tragic train crash is being directed at various officials of the two train companies involved.

The reasons why are similar to the same argument I made earlier.

Basically the judge has indicated it was an accident waiting to happen and nobody in either company took steps to address it. The judge said the Adif leaders "allowed this situation to endure until the accident, with a serious risk for people's life."

http://www.expatica.com/es/news/loc...es-charged-over-deadly-derailment_274721.html

 

[JabbaPapa]

There's a story covering a report about the 2013 derailment at El Pais :

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/07/24/inenglish/1532418197_112660.html

"Officials and technicians from all three bodies are now under investigation for failing to have properly assessed the risk of the Angrois curve, where the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS), which automatically brakes trains exceeding designated speeds, had been deactivated. This system would have stopped the train when the driver failed to do so due to a distraction.

--

The EU railway agency stepped in a second time at the victims’ request, helping make some sense out of the controversial decisions made by Adif and Renfe between 2011, when the high-speed line between Ourense and Santiago became operative, and the night when the train driver was distracted by an internal phone call from the conductor and failed to slow the train down from 200 kilometers per hour to 80 km/h ahead of the sharp bend. A new report that reached the judge in June found that both companies should have conducted mandatory risk analysis at that spot, particularly after they decided to disconnect the ERTMS automatic braking system. "

 

[Ribeirasacra]

A lot has been written about the failure for getting justice in the Local La Voz de Galicia. It is in Spanish.