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TV interview about Priscillian and Priscillianism

Priscillian

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 1999, Aragones 2000, Desde Le Puy 2002, Portuguese 2009, hoping RDLP 2014
For anyone interested in learning more about Priscillian and Priscillianism, please see my post in "Pilgrim Books" (under PilgrimsPlaza interview) for information about an upcoming three part interview to be broadcast this Sunday the 17th and following Sundays on Supreme Master Television. Thanks.
Tracy
http://pilgrimagetogheresy.com
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Priscillian said:
For anyone interested in learning more about Priscillian and Priscillianism...

No, not at all! I must say, it is really very good of you to advertise it as heresy, Tracy. It just saves time... :D

Gareth
 

Priscillian

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 1999, Aragones 2000, Desde Le Puy 2002, Portuguese 2009, hoping RDLP 2014
Welcome back, Gareth! I see your pilgrim experience has changed you enormously. Good to see that......
By the way, didn´t I ever tell you what the word "Heresy" means? Perhaps not. Heresy: "haeresis" (Greek) means "choice". It's a thing that some of us value rather highly.
Tee Hee.
TS
P.S. Seriously: Bravo on your Epic Journey! Like Geert, I just love it when people disagree with me....... :wink:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Priscillian said:
Bravo on your Epic Journey!

Thank you! Now I finally know what it was like crossing the continent on foot. Even if my journey didn't have the dangers of the medieval world, I have at least experienced the change of time-scale in travelling all the way from home on foot to the place where the actual bones of the Apostle St James are enshrined in that silver reliquary.

Well, why else would I have walked 2000 kilometres? :wink:

Gareth
 

PILGRIMSPLAZA

Active Member
strong views

Priscillian said:
I just love it when people disagree with me....... :wink:
To keep the record straight (since my name was mentioned) between all of us: I have different (and sometimes even very - to my own amazement!) strong views on a few issues, but I do not disagree as a good Aquarius should! I can see very well that everybody is absolutely right in his or her own corner! Anyway, all Ways lead to Rome, don't they? Or was it Santiago? Or Fisterra? But I do love a nice discussion, especially on enigma's (miscellaneous-about-santiago/topic3794.html) that's for sure :wink:
 

Priscillian

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 1999, Aragones 2000, Desde Le Puy 2002, Portuguese 2009, hoping RDLP 2014
Gareth says ".......to the place where the actual bones of the Apostle St James are enshrined in that silver reliquary."

Well that begs the question, doesn´t it? Dear Gareth, give me one shred of actual, concrete, historical (i.e. not based on myth) evidence and I´ll eat my own book: the hardcover version!

Right, enuff said from me now. Let others decide. I still maintain it doesn´t make a shred of difference to the pilgrim experience anyway, not for the vast majority of us.
http://pilgrimagetoheresy.com
 

sillydoll

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2002 CF: 2004 from Paris: 2006 VF: 2007 CF: 2009 Aragones, Ingles, Finisterre: 2011 X 2 on CF: 2013 'Caracoles': 2014 CF and Ingles 'Caracoles":2015 Logrono-Burgos (Hospitalero San Anton): 2016 La Douay to Aosta/San Gimignano to Rome:
Throughout early Christian history, other countries such as Italy, Germany, France and England also claimed to have various parts of the body of Yaakov Ben Zebedee.

An arm of Saint James had been kept in a reliquary in Venetia since 640.

Toulouse had a relic of the Apostle in the church of St-Saturnin even earlier than that.

Reading Abbey in England had as its most precious relic and biggest crowd puller, the hand of St James.
The hand was obtained around 1040 from Vitalis, bishop of Torcello in Venetia by Archbishop Adalbert of Hamburg-Bremen. When the Archbishop died it became the possession of Emperor Henry V of Germany. The Empress, Matilda, was the daughter of Henry 1 of England and when her husband died in 1125, Matilda removed the hand from the German Imperial Treasury. She joined her father in Normandy and the following year returned to England with him and the precious relic, landing in Portsmouth in 1126.
In 1121, King Henry had founded an Abbey in Reading and he gave the precious relic to the Cluniac monks at Reading Abbey in 1133. Reading Abbey boasted over 200 relics but the hand of Saint James was their most prized possession.

All the 12th C indulgences for St James at Reading refer to the presence of the hand in the Abbey.
Between 1173 and 1181 papal backing for the cult of St James in England was secured in the form of an exhortation by Pope Alexander 111 to all the faithful of the province of Canterbury to visit Reading on the feast of St James in order to avail themselves of the indulgences established by the glorious martyr, Blessed Thomas.

More indulgences were to follow in the 13thC bringing the total of days’ remission listed for the feast of St James in the middle of that century to 386. In due course the Abbey adopted as its heraldic arms three scallop shells. The Abbey’s seals, used by the abbot and by the convent depicted a hand in a gesture of blessing between two scallop shells with the legend ‘Ora pro nobis, sancta Iacobe’.

Amery Picaud, the writer of the 12thc pilgrim guide that formed part of the Codex Calixtinus (The Libre Sancti Jacobi) had this to say about the claims of various other regions in Europe to parts of the apostle.

“May they blush for shame, therefore, those envious people beyond the mountains who claim to have some part of it or possess relics of it! For the body of the saint is here in its entirety – “.

edit: Enigma for Geert. Who was/were the true authors of the Codex Calixtinus (The Libre Sancti Jacobi)??
 

sillydoll

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2002 CF: 2004 from Paris: 2006 VF: 2007 CF: 2009 Aragones, Ingles, Finisterre: 2011 X 2 on CF: 2013 'Caracoles': 2014 CF and Ingles 'Caracoles":2015 Logrono-Burgos (Hospitalero San Anton): 2016 La Douay to Aosta/San Gimignano to Rome:
THE HAND OF ST JAMES
IN a glass case at St Peter's Church, Marlow, Buckinghamshire is a mummified hand some think is that of the Apostle James. It was found in an old iron chest by workemn digging at Reading Abbey in 1786. Is it genuine?
There is documentary evidence that, from the 12th century until is dissolution in 1539, the abbey possessed a relic it believed to be the hand of St James. According to early records it had been kept in Italy until 1046 when it was brought to Hamburg by Adalbert, Archbishop of Bremen. In Germany it has been part ofthe imperial regalia, until it was brough to England by Matilda, daughter of Henry I, and was given to the Abbey.

After its 18th century rediscovery it was displayed in a museum, but after this closed was acquired by a Mr Scott Murray of Danesfield. When his private chapel was old in 1896 the hand was given to St Peter's Church.

One way to test its authenticity would be to see if the apostle was buried with a missing hand. Tradition said his body was buried at St Iago de Compostella. In 1879 the archbishop authorised a search for the grave. Sir Thomas Kendrick in his book, St James in Spain, described what happened after the tomb was found:

"It was about three feet long, a foot deep and a foot wide, and it contained a quantity of very old bones. The party was overwhelmed by emotion. one workman fainted and remained blind for half an hour after he had recovered consciousness. The Clerk of the Works was sent to tell the Archbishop, though the time was 2am, and woke up the place by throwing stones at the coachman's window."

Pope Leo XIII declared the bones those of St James, but it was unclear whether a hand was missing. Or whether it was far away in the English town of Marlow.


http://www.strangebritain.co.uk/allthingsodd/hand.html
 

Priscillian

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 1999, Aragones 2000, Desde Le Puy 2002, Portuguese 2009, hoping RDLP 2014
As promised: Here are the times for the programme in the Our Noble Lineage series entitled: Priscillianism: Living the Way of Christ (Part 1)
Sunday August 17th, 2008
(Previous day
23:30)

05:30
11:30
17:30

These time are Pacific Central time (US) other times are posted on http://suprememastertelevision.com/schedule.php
Great to see all this info. Thanks, all. I haven´t got my knife and fork out yet though...
 

PILGRIMSPLAZA

Active Member
chtonian aspects of the pilgrimage to Cabo Fisterra

sillydoll said:
“May they blush for shame...“ (...) Enigma for Geert. Who was/were the true authors of the Codex Calixtinus?
Hi Sil,
Nice to talk to you again! Thank you for your reaction! To answer your interesting suggestion:

I agree partly with Tracy when she says: "I still maintain it doesn´t make a shred of difference to the pilgrim experience anyway, not for the vast majority of us." It's not important for the most relevant story of Saint James whether he or Priscillianus is buried in Santiago or Mondoñedo.

To me it is relevant that they are both (strengthening the argument) representing aspects of death which seems to be the core of the matter. Santiago in his psychopomp function is guiding souls to the afterlife, our final destination. Which destination is everybody's own choice and also no matter for discussion. The last word on the camino at Fisterra is death: (Cabo de) Muerte.

The Santiago Enigma has everything to do with that final aspect of life. To me the Gloria works as a mirror, and I remember a well-known pilgrim commenting: "Good." That single word was precious to me as it confirmed my surmise to be on the right (albeit different from his) track.

The discussion on all body parts that are collected all over the world fits the same approach. We also have an arm at Roermond in Dutch Limburg and just across the Belgian border another limb is treasured. But I would really "blush for shame" talking to a lady on these matters at full length.

So in answer to the "Who" we would first have to define real people and true stories or the ones that were "invented" like other fraus pias (pious frauds) through history. Again there is no reason for discussion however because it is all very well documented in old and new books and articles that may hold the "truth" as it was ever seen. Did pope Calixtus exist? That's not my cup of tea.

Today I wrote to my fellow pilgrims concerning the chtonian aspects of the pilgrimage to Fisterra:
Dear Friends,
Look how nice and well the forum works! Still a serieus question at stake here!
“I do hope you'll join us to find some very simple answers on seven very simple questions.”
Thank you!
Brassa!
 

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sillydoll

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2002 CF: 2004 from Paris: 2006 VF: 2007 CF: 2009 Aragones, Ingles, Finisterre: 2011 X 2 on CF: 2013 'Caracoles': 2014 CF and Ingles 'Caracoles":2015 Logrono-Burgos (Hospitalero San Anton): 2016 La Douay to Aosta/San Gimignano to Rome:
Hello Geert,
I read somewhere - I think in one of Alison Raju's guides - that it is thought that the Libre Sancti Jacobi was not written by one man but was a compilation influenced by Diego Gelmirez to promote Santiago as a pilgrimage destination. For Latin scholars, some of the texts are almost childish and it is thought that much of it was written by students.
However, J. van Herwaarden (Between Saint James and Erasmus). who describes it as 'a marvelous case of pia fraus or pious forgery, is convinced that "..the Codex is the work of one man; he may have been called Aimery Picaud.."
 

Priscillian

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 1999, Aragones 2000, Desde Le Puy 2002, Portuguese 2009, hoping RDLP 2014
Silydoll, what a star you are! I really must look up this one further. Pious forgery eh? Please note everyone, I have transferred this discussion to another thread concerning evidence for St. James as this one was really only to provide info about the TV interview.
Tracy
 

PILGRIMSPLAZA

Active Member
A good story does not have to be true to be nice!

sillydoll said:
J. van Herwaarden
We both were on national radio in an interview on pilgrimage where Jan said: "Anybody may call himself a pilgrim." A quote I often and thankfully use. Stories, stories and more stories... we musn't forget that most historians agree that Jacobus never visited Spain. I remember a story from a council at Montserrat near Barcelona where Gelmírez proposed to beatify Saint James (or make him archbishop or whatever) and his colleagues simply said: Why, he's never been here!"

Is that story true? I wouldn't know; I wasn't there and don't care; I only vaguely remember and like it because it could have been true in those days of battles for power. Life was hard and Gelmírez had a goal and not much time so he wanted to score quickly! See the amazing map of Bishoprics that were suffragan (subordinate) of the Archbishopric of Santiago de Compostela like Ávila and Salamanca and closer places like Mondoñedo, Lugo, Orense, Tuy and Porto that were suffragan of Braga. Oviedo, León and Burgos were exempt sees whatever that may mean.

- Saint James's Catapult, The Life and Times of Diego Gelmírez of Santiago de Compostela,
R.A. Fletcher, 1984 and read the full-text-on-line on http://libro.uca.edu/sjc/sjc.htm
- http://www.archive.org/details/historyo ... 00fletuoft - A history of architecture on the comparative method (1905), Author: Fletcher, Banister, 1833-1899 > p424: "Santiago was a pilgrimage centre of more than national importance." flip book (2000 pictures!)
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banister_Fletcher - Sir Banister Flight Fletcher (1866-1953) was an English architect and architectural historian, as was his father, also named Banister Fletcher. With his father, he co-authored the first edition of A History of Architecture (A History of Architecture on the Comparative Method - Authors: Fletcher, Banister, 1833-1899 & Fletcher, Banister, Sir, 1866-1953). London: Athlone Press, University of London, 1896 [issued serially], first single-volume edition, London: B.T. Batsford and New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1897, now in its twentieth edition (ISBN 0-7506-2267-9)
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Gelm%C3%ADrez
- Sources, books & reviews on 'King' and others on pilgrim-books/topic3632.html#p19440
 

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Anonymous

Guest
Priscillian said:
...give me one shred of actual, concrete, historical (i.e. not based on myth) evidence and I´ll eat my own book: the hardcover version

Oh dear, I didn't mean to cause book eating contest! No, it's quite simple really. We have a Papal Bull that settles the matter, which is quite handy, so I don't have to worry too much about the evidence! :?

Gareth
 

sillydoll

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2002 CF: 2004 from Paris: 2006 VF: 2007 CF: 2009 Aragones, Ingles, Finisterre: 2011 X 2 on CF: 2013 'Caracoles': 2014 CF and Ingles 'Caracoles":2015 Logrono-Burgos (Hospitalero San Anton): 2016 La Douay to Aosta/San Gimignano to Rome:
Dear Gareth... .you can relax! You didn't start the debate - it started in the 10th century and has raged ever since!!
 

John Hussey

Active Member
From reading this thread, I'd conclude that one must exercise discretion believing opinions, whether spoken or written. For instance, some opinion has it that the Holocaust never took place. But that certainly doesn't mean that it didn't.
 

sillydoll

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2002 CF: 2004 from Paris: 2006 VF: 2007 CF: 2009 Aragones, Ingles, Finisterre: 2011 X 2 on CF: 2013 'Caracoles': 2014 CF and Ingles 'Caracoles":2015 Logrono-Burgos (Hospitalero San Anton): 2016 La Douay to Aosta/San Gimignano to Rome:
"Blindness can never hold its own in argument against those who see, whatever may be said by excuse for those who fail to see." Francis Hall
 

Priscillian

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 1999, Aragones 2000, Desde Le Puy 2002, Portuguese 2009, hoping RDLP 2014
JohnnieWalker said:
and meanwhile...the pilgrims keep walking.

and that, Mr. Walker Sir, is certainly the point. And long may they walk, though I´d prefer that there were more pilgrims and fewer Camino Tourists! I received yesterday online an invitation to do the Camino from Sarria to Santiago for the bargain sum of $1200.
So glad I walked when I did.
Tracy Saunders
http://pilgrimagetoheresy.com

P.S. First part of television programme on Priscillianism has been shown, and two more parts to go on the 24th and the 31st. It was very informative and nicely done with a backdrop of Spain. I will post all three parts on my website after the 31st of August. Some is in Spanish but with subtitles in 16 languages it shouldn´t be to much of a problem!
 

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