Two Brazilian pilgrims rescued on Route Napoleon

[Thornley]

[QUOTE="Kathar1na,
There is a saying: "There is always an idiot in any group". Groups - in any configuration large or small - usually thrive because the number of idiots (not your "Darwin awards" but more generally the ones who don't want to follow the commonly established rules because they think they know better or the rules are not made for them) remains small.[/QUOTE]

We have a saying in Oz Katharina ,
""You can't educate a mug ""
Would love the Pilgrims Office to place a sign ;
ALL COSTS associated with any rescue will be born by person/ persons assisted,
AND then have the normal costs associated beside , staff , hospital ambulance etc.
Its thousands and rightly so.

Lets be fair dinkum ,
You cross a mountain , 25% less than Samport [ The Way from France and Paris] you see nothing , you take 9-12 hours and then you sleep in a hostel and you still have 770km to go.

An old saying in pool / billiards was ;
"Mugs away"

Don't know why we waste our time discussing this mob.

 

[VNwalking]

@Viranani , did you live on Big Island ???

Yes! I'll send you a PM @Kathar1na ...

 

[MTtoCamino]

The interesting thing is it keeps this thread going.
No matter where you live we can all give examples of people getting themselves injured or killed by not using some basic common sense. In this situation was it the father leading or the son? Did they even take notice of the sign?
None of it matters because it will continue. The good that comes from this is the fact it makes everyone more aware & more apt to say something if they can.

 

[VNwalking]

This from another thread, falcon's experience recently, which is a bit sobering. It's not just a few people ignoring those signs, from the sound of it:

About half defied the signs saying the Napoleon Route was closed. Of course, neither route had views of anything but the snow! Was the risk worth it? An Italian on the Valcarlos route collapsed and was helped by two Germans. Had he chosen the Napoleon the outcome could have been worse.

I'd be curious to know the ages and genders of the defiers...

 

[whariwharangi]

Where I live, there is a legal obligation that as a pedestrian you must not cross the road at a traffic light if the light is on red for you. Do people stick to this rule all the time? No, they sometimes cross and nothing happens, no cars to be seen, no accident, no fine. However, most people will not do this if children are also waiting at the light, although it would be safe for them to do so. This is how I view the winter ban on the Route Napoleon: if you walk up there despite the ban, blog or post about it, advocate that, really, it's not so dangerous after all if yada yada yada, you are setting a not so great example for others. Not your problem but theirs? Well, that's where opinions diverge ....

This is a good example. The red light is intended to control vehicle traffic. As a pedestrian, to not cross means significant increase in walking/waiting time ... often when there is no traffic to control ... so there are times when it is appropriate to break the 'rules'. However, any person of sense knows to at least look each way before crossing the street on a red light.

Same should apply to closures on camino; the sign is a warning that there are hazards and if you don't know enough about the hazard then you should not go.

 

[Bradypus]

Same should apply to closures on camino; the sign is a warning that there are hazards and if you don't know enough about the hazard then you should not go.

True. Many experienced mountain walkers would probably have had no major difficulty in following the route in the conditions which these men faced. Sadly there is a very specific problem of this one very high-profile path. Its fame and mystique attracts people who are very unprepared and so inexperienced that they simply do not understand the nature of the dangers : people who do not even know that they don't know what they do not know....

 

[whariwharangi]

True. Many experienced mountain walkers would probably have had no major difficulty in following the route in the conditions which these men faced. Sadly there is a very specific problem of this one very high-profile path. Its fame and mystique attracts people who are very unprepared and so inexperienced that they simply do not understand the nature of the dangers : people who do not even know that they don't know what they do not know....

The point needs to be made that just because someone attempts route Napoleon in winter does not automatically make them an idiot.

The caveat is that I too am guilty of thinking 'idiot' when I see tags such as 'Brazil' and 'Korea' in the tragic stories.

I resent rules that are intended to protect the 2% that haven't the wit to figure it out for themselves, the "people who do not even know that they don't know what they do not know".

I get it that the rules are intended to protect the lives of the rescue teams who don't need the heartbreak of having to haul out yet another pilgrim's corpse.

There has to be a better way.

 

[MTtoCamino]

This is a good example. The red light is intended to control vehicle traffic. As a pedestrian, to not cross means significant increase in walking/waiting time ... often when there is no traffic to control ... so there are times when it is appropriate to break the 'rules'. However, any person of sense knows to at least look each way before crossing the street on a red light.

Same should apply to closures on camino; the sign is a warning that there are hazards and if you don't know enough about the hazard then you should not go.

Environment of the person arriving @ any location worldwide determines knowledge of the location they find their feet. Most travelers research before they set off.
Yet both in Canada & in Montana locals still ski, snowshoe, snowmobile into the backcountry in winter. We still loose people to avalanche & elements. They know when they set off what the dangers are. Would a city person with no experience even know where to start getting that education in a warm tropical environment? We are critical of people we have no background on. Yet the people arriving are truly just living, not curled in fear afraid to leave their comfort zone. Maybe we do what we can to educate but let's try to give them the credit of living.
Keith

 

[Thornley]

Environment of the person arriving @ any location worldwide determines knowledge of the location they find their feet. Most travelers research before they set off.
Yet both in Canada & in Montana locals still ski, snowshoe, snowmobile into the backcountry in winter. We still loose people to avalanche & elements. They know when they set off what the dangers are. Would a city person with no experience even know where to start getting that education in a warm tropical environment? We are critical of people we have no background on. Yet the people arriving are truly just living, not curled in fear afraid to leave their comfort zone. Maybe we do what we can to educate but let's try to give them the credit of living.
Keith

But charge them accordingly Keith

 

[Thornley]

This from another thread, falcon's experience recently, which is a bit sobering. It's not just a few people ignoring those signs, from the sound of it:


I'd be curious to know the ages and genders of the defiers...

This is how you get into trouble VNwalking ,

The majority would have been women , university educated and under 35 yrs

 

[VNwalking]

@Thorley... Hahahaha....

Would a city person with no experience even know where to start getting that education in a warm tropical environment?

My first thought is "Yeah, but..."
It's very true that when you grow up in the tropics (as I did) there's no way anyone can explain the experience of cold. (Until I was 18 cold was 20degrees C.--then I went to Montreal for University. Let's just say it was a shock.)
Likewise, someone who's lived in a city all their life is going to be clueless about the real experience of being in nature.
So being charitable, perhaps these 2 were from Rio and had no idea what they were getting into.
Nonetheless...No is NO.
And surely the people @falcon269 was talking about (quote in Post #122) don't all fit into that category.

Yet the people arriving are truly just living, not curled in fear afraid to leave their comfort zone. Maybe we do what we can to educate but let's try to give them the credit of living.

True enough, Keith. At the same time one can fully live while still respecting the law. That's another thing altogether.

 

[MTtoCamino]

@Thorley... Hahahaha....


My first thought is "Yeah, but..."
It's very true that when you grow up in the tropics (as I did) there's no way anyone can explain the experience of cold. (Until I was 18 cold was 20degrees C.--then I went to Montreal for University. Let's just say it was a shock.)
Likewise, someone who's lived in a city all their life is going to be clueless about the real experience of being in nature.
So being charitable, perhaps these 2 were from Rio and had no idea what they were getting into.
Nonetheless...No is NO.
And surely the people @falcon269 was talking about (quote in Post #122) don't all fit into that category.

True enough, Keith. At the same time one can fully live while still respecting the law. That's another thing altogether.

Lol yes there are laws we must live under, & like this one in the form of fines. Nature is much more harsh. This is such a tough topic to try to have an answer for, I just don't think there is one except each of us must take responsability for ourselves, yet this points out how those we care about follow to the end. I received an email from one of this forums Canadian residents north of me informing me of 2 Americans lost under an avalanche & a Canadian killed skiing. This certainly is not just a Camino problem. So if anyone wants to make a true difference move to the closest village purchase a sled (snowmobile) & patrol.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Lots of my friends would call "spade for a spade" a racist connotation. I still don't believe this kind of bravado is anything but stupidity.

I'm pretty sure the saying has nothing to do with race, but with shovels and spades... but people read into things what they want these days. From Google...

"To call a spade a spade" entered the English language when Nicholas Udall translated Erasmus in 1542. Famous authors who have used it in their works include Charles Dickens and W. Somerset Maugham, among others.

To be clear, the "spade" in the Erasmus translation has nothing to do with a deck of cards, but rather the gardening tool. In fact, one form of the expression that emerged later was "to call a spade a bloody shovel." The early usages of the word "spade" did not refer to either race or skin color."

 

[domigee]

I could make a couple of other observations in that the people who are getting into trouble are from places such as Brazil and Korea where there is not much opportunity for exposure to harsh winter conditions.

Err... Winter in Korea? Seoul? I can assure you they know all about COLD lol

 

[Thornley]

Two Brazilian pilgrims crossing the Route Napoleon ran into difficulties with the weather and contacted the emergency services by radio from the Izandorre refuge hut. They were rescued using an off-road vehicle - probably the one mentioned in a press article yesterday. In a post yesterday which has since been removed from the APOC Facebook group one young man described the treacherous conditions which he and a companion encountered crossing the high-level route despite it being officially closed and his companion's hypothermia symptoms. It appears there are still people ignoring the closure and running into dangerous situations.

http://navarra.elespanol.com/articu...ndorre-roncesvalles/20170313192457102257.html
http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/20...quieren-un-vehiculo-para-rescates-en-la-nieve

When you posted about the new vehicle acquired for the local rescue teams a few days ago, I was tempted to remark that it had come just in time as it is in weather conditions like now, in particular in March, when spring is about to arrive in the valleys, that people who are ignorant about the area, the climate, the conditions of the path at higher altitude and their physical capabilities, believe that they alone are exempt from warnings, relevant information and outright bans of crossing at this pass at this time of the year.

PS. For the uninitiated: the route Napoleon is closed every year until at least 31 March. You are not allowed to walk into Spain on this path.

Is the word "IDIOTS" allowed on the Forum without offending certain people who can not read or follow simple rules and signage. Guess what, closed means: closed.

Well said Biarritz Don ,
There is no way these idiots who continue to cross the so called start of Frances will ever listen to ONE word we have said.
Close this down and await 10-12 months for the next edition ,
Before that maybe you Ivar can arrange for all notices on dangers/costs to be on display at the pilgrims office and all pilgrims made aware of such.

 

[Felipe]

This is a good example. The red light is intended to control vehicle traffic. As a pedestrian, to not cross means significant increase in walking/waiting time ... often when there is no traffic to control ... so there are times when it is appropriate to break the 'rules'. However, any person of sense knows to at least look each way before crossing the street on a red light.

Your comment brought to me the memory of a signpost I saw in the Munich jakobsweg, as you reach the Starnberg village. Upon my very rudimentary German, it advises to pedestrians:
"Only with green light! Give a good example to children! "
It is in a road with very scarce traffic, so jaywalking was quite tempting.

 

[Sparrow in Texas]

How the meanings of words and phrases can evolve with time, place and intent is always a fascinating subject. Having lived in various parts of the USA south almost all of my 60+ years, I have never heard the word spade used in a racial slur though I have heard many others. Calling "a spade a spade" has been in use for hundreds of years, the racial slur is worded differently and is more recent. I would not allow the existence of the racial slur to prevent my use of the phrase "call a spade a spade" provided that the context and my intent were appropriate and clear. To do otherwise removes some of the richness of language.

 

[alexwalker]

How the meanings of words and phrases can evolve with time, place and intent is always a fascinating subject. Having lived in various parts of the USA south almost all of my 60+ years, I have never heard the word spade used in a racial slur though I have heard many others. Calling "a spade a spade" has been in use for hundreds of years, the racial slur is worded differently and is more recent. I would not allow the existence of the racial slur prevent my use of the phrase "call a spade a spade" provided that the context and my intent were appropriate and clear. To do otherwise removes some of the richness of language.

Applies for Norway as well. Has never been related to "rascimn" at all. Unknown.

 

[alexwalker]

For starters, not only is this slur word largely unknown outside the US, the association between the tool (spade) and the card category or colour (spades) does not work in many languages: it's pique vs bêche, Pik vs Spaten, pique vs pala/laya to just name French, German and Spanish.

Another example of the lackings in the English "language" compared to European & other old sivilications...

 

[whariwharangi]

Your comment brought to me the memory of a signpost I saw in the Munich jakobsweg, as you reach the Starnberg village. Upon my very rudimentary German, it advises to pedestrians:
"Only with green light! Give a good example to children! "
It is in a road with very scarce traffic, so jaywalking was quite tempting.

View attachment 32547

Yeah ... once upon a time I walked North from the Pier downtown San Diego for several hours. If I had stood around and waited for every red light to turn green I'd still be there.

Trouble didn't come till I crossed against a light where Police were monitoring a rowdy group of people staging a labour strike. Once they determined I wasn't part of the protest (and after explaining I had spent the last few weeks bouncing around on the ocean in a tin can) they let me go with a warning.

So its not just children who need good example.

Nuts to that says I. God equipped you with a brain. You're taught to think in school. If you still don't get it ... its natural selection and we should not interfere by making nanny state rules.

Not sure why I care ... I have absolutely no intention of walking the route Napoleon in winter conditions. Then again .. I started from SJPdP 25 Oct 2012 ... close to what is now the closure date. Lousy weather too.

 

[Bradypus]

Err... Winter in Korea? Seoul? I can assure you they know all about COLD lol

Since South Korea is due to be hosting the Winter Olympics about this time next year I hope that quite a few Koreans know a great deal about both cold and snow.

 

[Sparrow in Texas]

I would never say that English or any other language is "lacking" compared to another. I would say for sure that some users of English are linguistically lazy.


Another example of the lackings in the English "language" compared to European & other old sivilications...Quote from alexwalker

 

[nycwalking]

Keeping "fingers crossed", doesn't that denote superstition, Ouija boards, witches, warlocks, and wizards? There was a Twilight episode about such things. Btwn, swords, The Way, and crossed fingers, no wonder folks are, out-in-the-cold.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

@alexwalker was joking, of course. So, has anyone ever played cards with a Spanish set of playing cards? No spades of any colour to be seen but, instead, swords. Similar to Italian sets. Swords are called espadas in Spanish and spade in Italian. That's apparently (see OED) where the English spades come from, the ones that are used for playing and not digging. In the thread is back in Spain, yippee .

Looks like both non-derogatory versions of spade go back to Proto-Indo-European (PIE): http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=spade

 

[alexwalker]

I would never say that English or any other language is "lacking" compared to another. I would say for sure that some users of English are linguistically lazy.

Another example of the lackings in the English "language" compared to European & other old sivilications...Quote from alexwalker

Well... Is English a language? (tongue in cheek here). Or is it a collection of words from other languages? Mostly. First, consider all Greek words (in English, and all languages). English is very much a collection of Greek, Spanish and old Germanic/Nordic words. Ex.: York=Jorvik (from Norwegian Vikings, landing there) =Bay of Earth. New York= Neue (German) Jorvik.

Starboard (maritime). Norwegian word twisted wrong: nothing to do with stars: Steering board=styrebord in Viking (and new) Norwegian. Still in use today in Norw. as "styrbord".
Port (maritime)=Porto (Spanish): Gate/harbour to the city.

Ships parked with the left side to the harbour/city gate in order not to break/damage the steering board on the right side of the boat.

And so on and so on.

There are some 5.000 words from Norway/Germany in the English language.
When the Romans arrived in Old England they were met by tribes of unsivilised savages.

Do not flog me for sharing this information...

 

[dougfitz]

When the Romans arrived in Old England they were met by tribes of unsivilised savages.

It seems to be a common enough practice of invaders to talk up the benefits they brought to the conquered by claiming how uncivilised the lands being invaded were! And of course victors, not the vanquished, write the histories.

ps the Romans never invaded England, new or old. England formed as a state well after the departure of the Romans who had invaded Britain.

 

[Sparrow in Texas]

There are two sides to every story and it is worth hearing "the other side". Instead of the name called the two pilgrims about whom this thread was posted, it could be called an error in judgement. Mistake made, lesson learned.

 

[alexwalker]

There are two sides to every story and it is worth hearing "the other side". Instead of the name called the two pilgrims about whom this thread was posted, it could be called an error in judgement. Mistake made, lesson learned.

I do not agree. It is called ignoring all sensible warnings. Breaking the rules/signs. Not understanding. Egoists. Ignorants. No point in wrapping it.

I am a winter warfare specialist from the Arctic. I would highly respect the Pyrenees in winter. Brazilians in winter mountains? Serious? Not exactly Amazonas...

Unskilled and unaware of it...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

 

[Felipe]

Your comment brought to me the memory of a signpost I saw in the Munich jakobsweg, as you reach the Starnberg village. Upon my very rudimentary German, it advises to pedestrians: "Only with green light! Give a good example to children! "

For the record, I did not intend to critizice anyone (or any country). It was just a reflection about cultural differences. I live in a country where frequently you see a quite cavalier attitudes towards
traffic rules. So, I have to warn my visiting friends from other countries that they have to look each side when they cross a street, even if they have a green light...just in case. Obviously, when I am in a foreign country, I have to respect their rules scrupulously; I am a guest, so no excuses. That means to me not jaywalking in Germany...especially when children are watching.

It seems to be a common enough practice of invaders to talk up the benefits they brought to the conquered by claiming how uncivilised the lands being invaded were! And of course victors, not the vanquished, write the histories.

.

That used to be true, but not anymore. Since the appearance of the "history from below" in the mid of last century, we have in books predominantly the point of view of the conquered, the oppressed and the disenfranchised, to a degree that to consider seriously the ideas and representations of the formerly privileged is currently a kind of a daring non-conformism. Yes, culture (and rules) can be quite odd things.

 

[dougfitz]

That used to be true, but not anymore. Since the appearance of the "history from below" in the mid of last century, we have in books predominantly the point of view of the conquered, the oppressed and the disenfranchised, to a degree that to consider seriously the ideas and representations of the formerly privileged is currently a kind of a daring non-conformism. Yes, culture (and rules) can be quite odd things.

You are correct, that there appears to be a movement to re-write history from the viewpoint of the losers, and there might be some merit in that. I am not a historian by any means, nor widely enough read in these alternative views to determine whether they are just artful revisionist polemic or genuine attempts to develop a more understanding narrative of the times they describe. I know that in Australia, there appears to be some of the latter emerging recently as people realise how important it is and will continue to be to capture what has been previously been an oral tradition.

 

[capecorps]

Wheels within wheels: its all of a piece.

Napoleon is the pied piper who leads us to wild and careless adventure. He lends credence to the great man theory of history. Although not French himself, the French were so enamored of him that they completed the Napoleonic Arch celebrating his victories in 1836 fully twenty years after his final defeat at Waterloo. He epitomized everything French in his time: hopelessly romantic, unbelievably brave, adventurous and a harbinger of the future.

If you were a young guy in France in 1796, chances were that neither you nor twenty generations of your family before you had ever ventured more than a hundred miles away from your village. That is, until you and fifty thousand just like you across the length and breadth of France, heard Napoleon's clarion call: and you followed him blindly through the hot desert sands of Egypt to the frozen wastes of Russia itself. With your pack on your back and your musket at your side, you cut a swathe thousands of miles long from Italy, Spain, Portugal through Austria, Germany and Poland; and everywhere you went, your army was victorious. Nothing could withstand your might: you were the masters of Europe. And if you were lucky, carrying the scars of a hundred battles, you managed to limp back home to your village twenty years later. No sooner did you have a crop in the field and a baby on the way, when his call came wafting on the breeze; and you dropped everything to join him in one last mad, glorious charge.

You're an old man now with your grand children at your knee nodding off in the twilight of the day when the final call sounds; and there in the brilliance of the setting sun on the distant mountaintops you see Napoleon at the head of his armies astride his rearing Marengo; and as your old comrades in arms call your name, you hoist your backpack, shoulder your musket, take your place in the line and follow him to infinity in the greatest adventure of them all.

 

[mspath]

When it was named the Napoleon route I do not know.

Although Napoleon Bonaparte never was on this route the French troops fought at the Battle of Roncesvalles 25 July 1813 against the British led by Wellington. Read more here of this event in the Peninsular war 1808/1814 and do scan the map of the battle.

The Peninsular war was commonly known as "La Francesada". Pursued by the British the French would retreat from Spain later in 1813. Intense battles in Navarra during these campaigns occurred at Burgos, Pamplona, Zubiri and Roncesvalles; all places we walk through today.

Colonel Walter O'Hara, who
fought with the British in the battle, after emigrating to then Upper Canada mid-century would name Roncesvalles Avenue in Toronto after the battle. The present neighbourhood of Roncesvalles in turn gained its name from the street.

 

[samxysam]

I think if they have that map from Office, it is hard to miss in the front 80% of Route Napoleon. Only when you are coming down, it is hard and easily confuse if the route is correct or not. Climbing is more safe,just highest peak is too narrow and quiet unsafe in windy day.

 

[Ray Boneski]

I'm walking the Camino now and I met someone last week who came via Napolean and bragging about it. It is just hard to root for people like this. I wonder why I struggle to be non-judgmental.

 

[Thomas Fitzgerald]

This is the Valcarlos route on February 9, 2017. It had snowed on the 8th. When I got to the Ibaneta Pass there were two policemen there with mounted high powered binoculars aimed at the descent from the Napoleon route. They did not appear to be the most sympathetic or understanding pair of gentlemen. ( You know the type- say something stupid and get a baton to the back of the legs. No need for fines and your on your way.)

 

[M. Oliver]

I hope these people are made to pay the FULL cost of their rescue. It is more expensive than most people realize to maintain and operate a rescue service like this, not even including the risks run by the people doing the rescue. In my younger days I was a backcountry ranger for the National Park Service in the USA and based upon this experience I understand there are young (usually men) who think they are superman and can do what nobody else can. Then the professionals and the local people have to bail them out. I doubt it was lack of information in this case. Look at that sign and the field of snow behind. Any competent adult would have realized this was suitable only for well equipped winter mountaineering, if that, not a walk between beds on the Camino. Last year I crossed from SJPP into Spain in March, via Valcarlos. It is the only reasonable route at this time of year.

I agree with you. Foolish behavior often risks the lives of others. If there were no rescue operations, those hikers who most likely ignored the warning sign and the the warnings of those at the SJPP Pilgrim's Office, would have frozen to death.

 

[Satírico]

Is the word "IDIOTS" allowed on the Forum without offending certain people who can not read or follow simple rules and signage. Guess what, closed means: closed.

Guess what 'closed' means: closed.
Guess what, closed means closed.

 

[Zella Pugh]

Two Brazilian pilgrims crossing the Route Napoleon ran into difficulties with the weather and contacted the emergency services by radio from the Izandorre refuge hut. They were rescued using an off-road vehicle - probably the one mentioned in a press article yesterday. In a post yesterday which has since been removed from the APOC Facebook group one young man described the treacherous conditions which he and a companion encountered crossing the high-level route despite it being officially closed and his companion's hypothermia symptoms. It appears there are still people ignoring the closure and running into dangerous situations.

http://navarra.elespanol.com/articu...ndorre-roncesvalles/20170313192457102257.html
http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/20...quieren-un-vehiculo-para-rescates-en-la-nieve

Thank you for the article link. Very informative! My companions and I will be on Frances on April 20th and checking the weather and making sure the route is open will be paramount!

 

[Maureen McGovern]

Two Brazilian pilgrims crossing the Route Napoleon ran into difficulties with the weather and contacted the emergency services by radio from the Izandorre refuge hut. They were rescued using an off-road vehicle - probably the one mentioned in a press article yesterday. In a post yesterday which has since been removed from the APOC Facebook group one young man described the treacherous conditions which he and a companion encountered crossing the high-level route despite it being officially closed and his companion's hypothermia symptoms. It appears there are still people ignoring the closure and running into dangerous situations.

http://navarra.elespanol.com/articu...ndorre-roncesvalles/20170313192457102257.html
http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/20...quieren-un-vehiculo-para-rescates-en-la-nieve

What does APOC stand for please sorry foe being so stupid

 

[grayland]

What does APOC stand for please sorry foe being so stupid

American Pilgrims on the Camino...

We probably use abbreviations and anagrams too often.

Always ask if they are unfamiliar.

 

[Bradypus]

We probably use abbreviations and anagrams too often.

Guilty as charged. Apologies - I should have been clearer in my phrasing.

 

[Thornley]

I'm walking the Camino now and I met someone last week who came via Napolean and bragging about it. It is just hard to root for people like this. I wonder why I struggle to be non-judgmental.

Has occurred many times over the years.
However we witnessed on one occasion when they asked their normal question over a beer or two in the towns cafe they received a reply from a young 21 year old girl,

** GENEVA and not another word was said in the room

We had commenced in Le Puy and had assisted this great kid after her girlfriend pulled out at the last moment. She was struggling a bit after 2 weeks walking.
She had left her job in a bakery and was not flushed with $$
Over the journey just a beer here & there , a piece of fruit mostly a banana when we crossed paths and on our departure in Burgos she got a lovely hotel room.
She made it to Muxia , has now finished a degree and Ray,
I can't even remember what the braggarts looked like.

PS
And in Grealou Ester gave us a wink and our bill was marginally higher.
Then again Ester is Swiss

 

[PilgrimPillar]

One year ago it was the same situation. One year ago fellow peregrinos where ranting on this forum. For what reason?

Two Brazilians where rescued down on theire first leg.

I stayed together with one of them last year. The whole day before the camino was about to start. A mild, gentle family man he was. Sensible and considerate.

I went ahead in the morning....beeing unpatient to get on my way.

Regrets. I should not have left the two of them behind.

The marked detours on winter route from paved roads into woodland paths was eventually totally snow covered. My choice was then to stay on bitumen. It started snowing rather heavy and some bad weather was brewing in my reckoning.

Staying true to the maps we were given......one freshly snow covered wrong turn up there.....and I would also have gone into winter highland myself.

I wish could have been with them in that case. Since I have years of winter-training the three of us would have been much better of ...up there......lost or unsecure what to do.

(My friend....?.....he was so exited when we talked... he had never seen snow before.)

Late in the evening, at the monastery, I met another guy staying in his bunk the whole time. Totally exhausted from getting lost and using six hours more than he had planned. Following the map, following winter route. Doing things right......He had to start jogging to stay warm up there. Beeing from Poland he was familiar with winter conditions.....

I have since tried to get in touch with my Brazilian caminofriend to learn more, without any succes. He flew back after one night more in Pamplona/hospital. I got in the following day, first learning about the news at my Albuerge in Zubiri.


My sincere wish ......?.....judgmental comments ?? It really brings down the value of reading/sharing ....

As long as objective facts is lacking....?.....

Beeing uninformed on a forum is a shared responsibility.



((Epilog; The exaxt same day, a young Check republic guy stayed solo in the mountains the whole following night, before coming down on the french side in light of day. He had decided
to go Napoleon on his own and was to blame for his actions....I know because I sat beside him when we got all the shared information at the Albuerge. He later let me in on his reasoning/asking for advice. I thought that I had talked him out of it. As I later learned, without succes. It was totally clear for everyone that Napoleon route was closed, closed, closed....))

 

[alexwalker]

These rules are very difficult to understand for the better knowers, right?

With regards from an Arctic Winter soldier...

 

[HedaP]

Sorry @Katharina and @alexwalker, if I'm right in assuming you are both trying to make a point, I have to admit that I don't understand what that point is. If you could just put it in simple language I might be able to understand it. If it is too personal and breaches forum guidelines by all means start a conversation with me. Cheers.

 

[nycwalking]

Confused. Been reading so many threads, when I came upon Napolean reference, I thought of slaughter via war via him, and thought I was on slaughterhouse thread. Oh well! No more Napoleans before April and that includes said ice cream too: it is Lent.

 

[HedaP]

I commented on "no one told us that the road was closed" by saying I don't think there are official closures or offcial announcements about closures other than during Nov-Mar.

As often, I used a quote from a previous message to continue a general line of conversation.

Hi Katharina,
Now I understand the confusion. The Napolean route can be closed due to adverse weather conditions at any time of year. The route was officially closed on 16 September 2015 due to ex-tropical storm Henri.
Signs would have been posted at SJPdP alerting those hoping to leave that day and the Pilgrim Office would also have been warning pilgrims.
Those of us leaving from Orisson did not have the benefit of a closure sign.
There was no wifi at Orisson (or at least I didn't get any) with which to get a weather update.
I did not pick up a Spanish sim card until reaching Pamplona so there was no chance of using own provider to get internet access.
Probably most of us at Orisson registered at the Pilgrim Office the day before we were due to leave SJPdP ie. two days previously on 14 September and there no warnings then.
I'm assuming locals were not aware of the closure when we left Orisson after breakfast.
I agree that in normal circumstances it is the responsibility of individuals to inform themselves and act accordingly.
However, very difficult if not impossible to be informed in these circumstances.
And thank you for giving me this opportunity to explain. I appreciate it.

 

[HedaP]

Whoever pronounces it closed, whether local administration or upon private / volunteer initiative, I wonder, for the future, whether this information could not also be provided in other ways than orally in SJPP and perhaps on a sign in town (such as the one on that fence where the two paths split). There may not be WiFi at Orisson but there is a 3G net, even further up the path, and while you may not have been able to access such information, others could have been able to do so and inform everyone. And not only on the day itself but earlier, if available, so that people can plan ahead. It's just an idea.

In my opinion the ideal solution would be for the powers that do make the decision to close the road to ring Hunto and Orisson to inform staff who would in turn inform pilgrims. This would be less work, and less costly than medically evacuting injured pilgrims like the woman in our quota of pilgrims who was blown over by the wind and broke her clavicle.

 

[Tony Dickin]

Two Brazilian pilgrims crossing the Route Napoleon ran into difficulties with the weather and contacted the emergency services by radio from the Izandorre refuge hut. They were rescued using an off-road vehicle - probably the one mentioned in a press article yesterday. In a post yesterday which has since been removed from the APOC Facebook group one young man described the treacherous conditions which he and a companion encountered crossing the high-level route despite it being officially closed and his companion's hypothermia symptoms. It appears there are still people ignoring the closure and running into dangerous situations.

http://navarra.elespanol.com/articu...ndorre-roncesvalles/20170313192457102257.html
http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/20...quieren-un-vehiculo-para-rescates-en-la-nieve

It's very hard to make a comment without having the complete story but I've seen trekkers take needless risks for reasons that range from complete inexperience and ignorance to the exuberance and bravado of youth. Perhaps it started as a beautiful and clear sunny day and they thought, 'let's give it a go'. And being completely honest have on one or two occasions found myself in scary situations where all I could say was, 'Tony, this is really dumb'. Hopefully with a lot more experience and the wisdom of age I've not only survived so far (touch wood) but also now realise that there is always another day and unnecessary risks simply aren't worth it.

However, a salutary tale. About 10 years ago I completed the Tour Mont Blanc. The TMB is a pretty demanding trek and at many points over 3,000 metres. But during summer all the trail is open and except for occasional rain squall and electrical storm is pretty safe. It was mid-August and I was walking from France into Italy and the day started sunny and bright. By 1pm I was in the middle of a snowstorm and a complete whiteout. Map and compass saved the day and got me to the nearest refugio where scores of local day walkers were arriving, wearing shorts and T shirts and in various states of hypothermia - suffering from asthmatic attacks to being unconscious with uncontrollable shaking. Fortunately I had the right kit but the message is clear, Mother Nature can be very unforgiving at any time of the year. If the weather turns dirty and you feel uncertain of whether or not to continue, turn around and go back down the hill. The Route Napoleon isn't as remote as the French/Italian Alps so returning shouldn't be too hard provided you don't leave it too late!. There's always tomorrow. Plus, share the news on the way down with all whom you pass, it may just save a tragedy.

Happy trails (and I do mean this, a little common sense will make for a wonderful and safe trek and after all, the Camino isn't a race to the finish line!)

 

[Thornley]

It's very hard to make a comment without having the complete story but I've seen trekkers take needless risks for reasons that range from complete inexperience and ignorance to the exuberance and bravado of youth. Perhaps it started as a beautiful and clear sunny day and they thought, 'let's give it a go'. And being completely honest have on one or two occasions found myself in scary situations where all I could say was, 'Tony, this is really dumb'. Hopefully with a lot more experience and the wisdom of age I've not only survived so far (touch wood) but also now realise that there is always another day and unnecessary risks simply aren't worth it.

However, a salutary tale. About 10 years ago I completed the Tour Mont Blanc. The TMB is a pretty demanding trek and at many points over 3,000 metres. But during summer all the trail is open and except for occasional rain squall and electrical storm is pretty safe. It was mid-August and I was walking from France into Italy and the day started sunny and bright. By 1pm I was in the middle of a snowstorm and a complete whiteout. Map and compass saved the day and got me to the nearest refugio where scores of local day walkers were arriving, wearing shorts and T shirts and in various states of hypothermia - suffering from asthmatic attacks to being unconscious with uncontrollable shaking. Fortunately I had the right kit but the message is clear, Mother Nature can be very unforgiving at any time of the year. If the weather turns dirty and you feel uncertain of whether or not to continue, turn around and go back down the hill. The Route Napoleon isn't as remote as the French/Italian Alps so returning shouldn't be too hard provided you don't leave it too late!. There's always tomorrow. Plus, share the news on the way down with all whom you pass, it may just save a tragedy.

Happy trails (and I do mean this, a little common sense will make for a wonderful and safe trek and after all, the Camino isn't a race to the finish line!)

A great summary Tony.
I hope the future pilgrims realise you were** twice ** as height as the "So Called" Napoleon path.
Good luck this year.

 

[Tony Dickin]

A great summary Tony.
I hope the future pilgrims realise you were** twice ** as height as the "So Called" Napoleon path.
Good luck this year.

Good point Thornley. Yes, I face the unknown as well this coming May/June. I really look forward to the challenge but even after 20 years of trekking, that first step provides a feeling that's a cross between trepidation and a case of the butterflies. It's wonderful and 10 minutes later I wouldn't want to be anywhere else in the world. Thanks for wishing me luck and good luck to all the other Camino novices. T

 

[mspath]

Thank you for your kind comments. Indeed, depictions of brutality are horrific. For further pondering re how events may shape "images" of history see this fascinating dissertation by Ignacio Paz.

http://www.napoleon-series.org/research/society/c_BritishPopularOpinion.html

 

[Avromal]

Are fines actually levied for ignoring these rules or are they more of an unenforced threat?

Although I cannot speak for France or Spain search and rescue (SAR) authorities, most SAR people would not want fines levied against individuals. They would prefer that people seek help at an earlier stage, than leave it until too late. Putting a fine in place would deter some people from getting help when they most need it.

 

[freespirit]

Two Brazilian pilgrims crossing the Route Napoleon ran into difficulties with the weather and contacted the emergency services by radio from the Izandorre refuge hut. They were rescued using an off-road vehicle - probably the one mentioned in a press article yesterday. In a post yesterday which has since been removed from the APOC Facebook group one young man described the treacherous conditions which he and a companion encountered crossing the high-level route despite it being officially closed and his companion's hypothermia symptoms. It appears there are still people ignoring the closure and running into dangerous situations.

http://navarra.elespanol.com/articu...ndorre-roncesvalles/20170313192457102257.html
http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/20...quieren-un-vehiculo-para-rescates-en-la-nieve

Its not just Jan-March/Nov-Dec that its unsafe ,when back in July 2015 just climbing up and the weather started to close in with heavy low cloud, cold and slight rain, lower back down while leaving St Jean it was boiling hot so be ready.