Two pilgrims lost and found in SJPP-Roncesvalles

[Felipe]

Spanish newspapers report that two British pilgrims got lost in the SJPP-Roncesvalles stage and were rescued yesterday.
They reportedly survived five days drinking water from streams and cattle abreuvoirs. Finally, they decided to ask for help (a phone call?), and rescue teams from Burguete spotted them near Gaindola (Valcarlos) in an very abrupt area, because they had made a cross with bright clothes. They were rescued and are apparently quite well, apart from tiredness, dehydration and hunger.
http://www.heraldo.es/noticias/naci...rdidos-desde-viernes-navarra-1015301-305.html

 

[FionaClarke]

Spanish newspapers report that two British pilgrims got lost in the SJPP-Roncesvalles stage and were rescued yesterday.
They reportedly survived five days drinking water from streams and cattle abreuvoirs. Finally, they decided to ask for help (a phone call?), and rescue teams from Burguete spotted them near Gaindola (Valcarlos) in an very abrupt area, because they had made a cross with bright clothes. They were rescued and are apparently quite well, apart from tiredness, dehydration and hunger.
http://www.heraldo.es/noticias/naci...rdidos-desde-viernes-navarra-1015301-305.html

It's made the UK newspapers too:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/17/british-pair-lost-for-five-days-on-pilgrimage-in-spain

 

[Icacos]

Glad to hear there was a happy outcome to this. It's good that the two had each other, as I wouldn't want to have been alone on this little expedition. I wonder if they saw any wild life while they were out there. Or was it just those griffon vultures circling overhead.

 

[C clearly]

It's made the UK newspapers too:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/17/british-pair-lost-for-five-days-on-pilgrimage-in-spain

I'm glad everyone was safe in the end! To any worried new pilgrims, I'd point out that the couple set out from SJPP at 4 pm, "intending to walk to Roncesvalles." Not a good idea. Then, wandering for 3 full days while drinking from cattle troughs seems odd, given that they had a phone. (Although maybe reception was unreliable.)

This does illustrate how some basic preparation and knowledge, with a touch of caution, could go a long way in reducing the risks.

The article had an strange statement at the end - increasing patrols on a section of the camino is not the same as providing a police escort!

 

[peregrina2000]

I'm glad everyone was safe in the end! To any worried new pilgrims, I'd point out that the couple set out from SJPP at 4 pm, "intending to walk to Roncesvalles." Not a good idea. Then, wandering for 3 full days while drinking from cattle troughs seems odd, given that they had a phone. (Although maybe reception was unreliable.)

This does illustrate how some basic preparation and knowledge, with a touch of caution, could go a long way in reducing the risks.

The article had an strange statement at the end - increasing patrols on a section of the camino is not the same as providing a police escort!

This is a really curious incident, but as C clearly says, the main lesson to be learned is not to leave that late! As far as phone reception goes, I remember once crossing in the fog after Orisson on the way to Roncesvalles. My Finnish friend's phone rang and when she answered, the telephone company welcomed her to Spain, so we figured we were heading in the right direction!

 

[billmclaughlin]

suroeste = southwest

 

[Felipe]

Obviously, what matters is that they are sound and safe. Good for them; they will have a good story to tell their grandchildren.
I have been wondering, too, about how they got lost there. And besides curiosity, there are probably lessons to be learnt from this incident. Anyway, probably we will never know what happened, unless it re-appears in a chapter of a “Survivor” series in the TV.
In my experiences, trekking disaster do not arrive as a big, thundering event (as in a meteorite landing onto my head). It is more like an accumulation of little bad decisions:
1. I take a wrong turn.
2. After a while I realize that, but instead of going backwards I persist, hoping that my road will eventually join the right way.
3. When the road becomes a path, and the path ends in nowhere, I trust my never sufficiently praised mental cartographic abilities and try to take a shortcut to the right road.
4. I am not sure anymore about where am I, but I am too vain to accept it (this is a typically masculine mistake)
5. I am completely lost. This is the moment to come back to the paved road, look for the first farm or village in sight, follow a stream down the valley, or the power lines (in a plain), to the nearer civilized spot.
I have never been in the 5 stage, but a couple of times I have been in, let’s say, a 4,25 situation.

 

[Tincatinker]

I was going to post "I hope their parents pick them up soon" and then I thought 'Grumpy, Tinca, grumpy' - and then I thought how the hell do you get that lost in a very small bit of the Franco/Spanish border country in the kindest of seasons. And then I remembered that all things are possible in this most extraordinary of worlds and I was just grateful that they are safe and well. And then I hoped that their parents give them a damn good spanking

 

[Isca-camigo]

Obviously, what matters is that they are sound and safe. Good for them; they will have a good story to tell their grandchildren.
I have been wondering, too, about how they got lost there. And besides curiosity, there are probably lessons to be learnt from this incident. Anyway, probably we will never know what had happened, unless it re-appears in a “Survivor” series in the TV.
In my experiences, trekking disaster do not arrive as a big, thundering eventr (as in a meteorite landing onto my head). It is more like an accumulation of little bad decisions:
1. I take a wrong turn.
2. After a while I realize that, but instead of going backwards I persist, hoping that my road will eventually join the right one.
3. When the road becomes a path, and the path ends in nowhere, I trust my never sufficiently praised mental cartographic abilities and try to take a shortcut.
4. I am not sure anymore about where I am, but I am too vain to recognize it (this is a typically masculine mistake)
5. I become completely lost. This is the moment to come back to the paved road, or look for the first farm or village in sight, follow a stream down the valley, or the power lines (in a plain), to the nearer civilized spot.
I have never been in the 5 stage, but a couple of times I have been in, let’s say, a 4,25 situation.

Or alternatively if you are training on the Uk South West Coastal Path

1) Vastly underestimate the distance to the next coastal village and set off too late

2) Realise that it is getting dark and by the time you have descended through the next set of trees and up the other side it will pitch black while you are walking next to steep cliff edges

3) Regret not bringing your headlight, and decide to follow what looks like a barely walked trail into fern and other moor land away from the cliffs.

4) Walk straight into Daddy, Mummy and Baby deer who are probably showing the same level of surprise that you are. After they have legged it realise you could have been following their trail, so..

5) Backtrack 50 metres where you had seen some barb wire, climb over it into a field. It is pitch back now. All you can hear is a lone ' cow' bellowing, in either this field or an adjoining field, you wonder why it's alone? You follow the edge of a field around to a gate,hoping that you don't hear ponding hoofs coming your way, then climb over a gate and find yourself on some solid track and see a sign, so...

6) You go over to it, realise you don't have a clue where you are or if the road will eventually get you to a small village, so you ring 999 and in an a very embarassed tone and manner explain your predicament, and they being the angels they are help you back to ' civilisation'

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Who on earth leaves at 4pm for a 27km walk with important elevation hoping to make it by pilgrim bed time of tenish? Really?

 

[Anemone del Camino]

says that they were found "en suelo francés, a unos 3 kilómetros del barrio de Gaindola (Valcarlos) en dirección suroeste". Does this mean "on French territory, about 3 km to the SW (or SE???) of Gaindola"? How did they manage to get there???

Yes Kathar1na, that's exactly what it means (and SW, BTW).

 

[Pabloke]

I think they were determined to sleep outside, under the stars or in a tent.

Even if the track is flat, you'll need more than six hours to cover that distance.

And, obviously, you don't need five days to find good phone range.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

The article had an strange statement at the end - increasing patrols on a section of the camino is not the same as providing a police escort!

Next thing you know there will be a cord attached to the pilgrim office in SJPP at one end and to the albergue in Roncesvalles at the other so people can keep holding it during 27km so they don't get lost. Like cave diving ropes . Or they'll be doing IQ tests at the pilgrim office before allowing you to head out. With the money from thise test perhaps portapoties can be installes and maintained on the route. Just thinking outloud .

 

[JohnMcM]

Let's put this in perspective shall we for the benefit, peace of mind and comfort for people about to try this section for the first time.

These folks made a mistake, for whatever reason. They managed to start off fairly late in the day despite all advice available.

It appears they managed to 'lose' their way on a well marked route.

They seem like inexperienced walkers and may well have not acted in the same way more experienced or alert people may have, particularly when they suspected that all was not well.

I fear this report and thread may well 'cause unnecessary concern' to pilgrims starting the SJPDP - Ronscevalles route now or over the next few weeks.

Obviously I'm talking about these summer months and not winter, late autumn or early spring when I say, don't fret folks, it may be a long day with some hard steep walking, however, if you are sensible, keep your wits about you and follow the person in front of you, you should be ok.

Buen Camino

 

[daesdaemar]

It seems like this would be one of the best marked and traveled areas?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ers-lost-five-days-Camino-Santiago-trail.html

 

[beiramar]

Seems like a case of bad preparation, no map, no GPS, no phone, no idea.

Hard to even walk for such a long time without meeting people or getting to a street/trail marker...

 

[alexwalker]

The Telegraph says that the two people are in their fifties.

I hope their parents have a serious talk with both of them when/if they return home.

 

[David]

A true Darwin Award moment ..... did you know that one third of the human population have an IQ below 85?
I say no more .......

 

[Saint Mike II]

If they managed to get lost in metropolitan Europe I hope they do not intend to walk either the Pacific Crest Trail (west coast USA); or the Australian National Walking Trail (5000 km North/South along the Great Dividing Range). They would have been dead in 3 or 4 days.
Still has been pointed out the Camino did provide - (St James must have been watching over them!!)

 

[Albertagirl]

A true Darwin Award moment ..... did you know that one third of the human population have an IQ below 85?
I say no more .......

@David
As these walkers were apparently in their fifties they have already, alas, done their worst for the gene pool. But, all joking aside, some of us, myself included, have no sense of direction. I hope that I have learned something in my forty some years of walking in the backcountry, but I shall always have to think out carefully where I am and where I should be going. And I believe that my IQ is over 85.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

It is difficult to do!! I suppose that is why it only happens every decade or so, and almost never outside winter/spring. It would take some real heads-down walking with no map or guide. There is another thread on the incident, by the way.

(Threads now merged: Moderator)

 

[whariwharangi]

Curiouser and curiouser.

 

[alexwalker]

A true Darwin Award moment ..... did you know that one third of the human population have an IQ below 85?
I say no more .......

Ha, ha, Thanks for the laugh: Indeed, David. But... They were British, weren't they?

On a serious note: This is an example of complete idiotics, IMHO, as a former soldier and trained in survival in the Arctic. Leaving SJPdP at 4 PM...

 

[DurhamParish]

This makes me think of the beginning of Paulo Cohelo's adventure in his book "The Pilgrimage", where he got lost for about a week in the Pyrenees. I thought that was impossible. Now I guess it's not impossible.

 

[C clearly]

nowhere near the Route Napoleon

I don't remember reading that they were taking the Route Napoleon. Maybe they set off to go through Valcarlos, not that it explains much!

 

[SYates]

Yup, perhaps Paulo Coelho's book is the explanation why they didn't call earlier - they thought they are living a 'true mystical pilgrimage experience'. Buen Camino, SY

 

[Kanga]

I'm amazed that after five days their cell phone still had battery power...

 

[Stephen]

You could see the logic in their decision to make a late start if they were planning to go no further than Valcarlos. A leisurely 7 mile stroll on a summer evening would make a gentle start to a Camino.
They're safe and that's the main thing. All's well that ends well.

 

[VNwalking]

I am ashamed to admit to chucking out loud at some of your responses (thank you, @SYates and @David)--not a kind response, but this story boggles the mind.
It's in the same league as that of a friend's father who almost lost a hand trying to pet the nice lion through the fence in a Safari park in Africa. Nature is not necessarily kind to those who think it's something out of Disney--in fact it couldn't are less if we live or die.
Thankfully these peregrinos are safe and well, and hopefully they've learned a lesson.

You could see the logic in their decision to make a late start if they were planning to go no further than Valcarlos. A leisurely 7 mile stroll on a summer evening would make a gentle start to a Camino.

Having walked that way I wonder how could they possibly have missed Vacarlos? Well. It's a cautionary lesson for me, too. Don't assume I know where I'm going and turn back if things don't seem quite right rather than forging onward into drinking-from-water-troughs-land.

 

[David]

There was a sun in the sky ... very hard to not find your way if you get lost .. but it has given us great fun and I am glad that they are safe ... though, not quite certain what 'safe' really means to these two Brits.

 

[alexwalker]

Judging by the picture in that article, they were maybe not well fit...?

 

[Saint Mike II]

That's because you did not click on all the articles linked in this thread . It does not cease to amaze me how events get reported and twisted in the news, and how many well-reputed media simply copy from each other without any fact checking of their own. It is a strange story.

You are close to the mark. By the time the reporter heard the story (second hand - unless he actually tracked them down), wrote the article, had the sub-editor do his or her stuff - changed the order of paragraphs - took out 50 words here and there, its a wonder we even were told they were on the Camino.

 

[DurhamParish]

I recall the only time I ever got lost on the camino. It was on the Portugues just as I was leaving Ponte de Lima early one morning. There had been an all night festival along the river and the road was filled with people just leaving this event. Six of the prettiest young Portuguese girls that you've ever seen (with flowers in their hair) started talking to me as we were walking along. Just about the time we parted company I came to a split in the road and there were no yellow arrows to point the way. I had to return on the same route (endure the abuse from the drunken revelers) until I found the yellow arrow that pointed the way . . . . it was right in the area where those young girls started talking to me.

I can just imagine they had a great laugh about the old man they led astray. I know that I do. HAHA

 

[Pabloke]

I hope they have an insurance. If not, I'm afraid they'll have to pay the rescue.

Anyway, everything sounds very odd. As the rescue guys said, they look really good after being five days lost in mountains with no food and drinking from troughs.

 

[David]

I am wondering what "trekking shoes" they had that all of them broke within five days!

 

[movinmaggie]

So glad these folks are now safe. This article refers to 'Dangerous mountain route'. I found it anything but dangerous, Au contraire, more like being lost in the beauty of it. But that said, perhaps they did want to view the stars. I did wonder at the 4pm start time and concluded that it must have been the reason for starting so late.

 

[t2andreo]

I hope they get a whopping great mountain rescue bill, with an additional fee tacked for stupidity above and beyond ANY reasonable standard for wilderness or even Camino hiking.

I believe that stupid should be painful, to provide the strongest possible lesson. In this case, I hope their bank accounts take a painful "hit."

I read this entire thread with interest. Many of us are Camino veterans who have each done multiple routes at varying times of the year. Every route has its particular challenges and possibilities for getting lost. However, I suspect we would all agree that getting lost on this first, VERY well marked, and heavily trafficked route just beggars belief.

I suspect we do not have all the pertinent information. Until we do, I will refrain from heaping further derision on these hapless folks.

All considered, my greatest concern is the negative view and reaction this could bring to all pilgrims of "mature years." Given the propensity for immense, intrusive, nanny-state government across most of Europe, I can hypothesize several likely policy changes, none of which would be good.

How does a requirement for all persons over 50 to hire a local, government-licensed guide to get you to Roncesvalles sound? Don't laugh!

Once someone realizes how many local jobs, even seasonal jobs, could be created, this becomes a "no brainer" for someone trying to pander for votes. If the local folks on both sides of the national frontier teamed up on this, I see a French guide taking you to the old frontier (now a dilapidated barbed wire fence) and handing you off to a Spanish-licensed guide (assuming it is not a holiday, or during authorized siesta hours). I think you all get the idea.

The more I think about this, the more I like a requirement for a pre-start interview at the St. Jean PdP pilgrim office. Only once they are satisfied that you know what you are going would they stamp your credential. Stupid people or the clueless need not apply.

Nuff said...

 

[whariwharangi]

A real adventure ... someone else having a heck of a time far away.

 

[Albertagirl]

I followed the Route Napoleon to Roncesvalles with no difficulty last fall. It was extremely well marked. But the fact remains that I had intended to take the alternate route through Ibaneta and I never saw any sign of it. I followed a couple of walkers down a marked steep hill and into the forest. No, I had no particular difficulty with that route and arrived in due time in Roncesvalles. But it was not my intention. I am saying this because there seems to be a lot of anger and ridicule against these British pilgrims. Anyone who thinks that it is stupid and irresponsible to get lost is welcome to redirect some of it at me. No one gets lost on purpose. They go on making decisions as best they can or continuing on the route that they think is the right one, until they know it isn't but can no longer continue. Route finding is a gift for some, a challenge for others, myself among them. Show a little compassion and understanding to two people who survived a difficult situation.

 

[Stephen]

I confess I was thinking of making a leisurely evening start with a stroll to Valcarlos next week until I read this report. On reflection, it might be better to wait 'til the morning and follow the crowds,

 

[Annette london]

Spanish newspapers report that two British pilgrims got lost in the SJPP-Roncesvalles stage and were rescued yesterday.
They reportedly survived five days drinking water from streams and cattle abreuvoirs. Finally, they decided to ask for help (a phone call?), and rescue teams from Burguete spotted them near Gaindola (Valcarlos) in an very abrupt area, because they had made a cross with bright clothes. They were rescued and are apparently quite well, apart from tiredness, dehydration and hunger.
http://www.heraldo.es/noticias/naci...rdidos-desde-viernes-navarra-1015301-305.html

So glad these "children" are safe and well. 5 days and nights! Could not believe what I was reading in the Mail yesterday. Speechless.
If myself and the husband had been lost for 5 days we'd probably have killed EACH OTHER!!! Even 2 days could do the job!

 

[Albertagirl]

If myself and the husband had been lost for 5 days we'd probably have killed EACH OTHER!!!

@Annette london
For food?

 

[Annette london]

@Annette london
For food?

Very good Albertagirl! Boiled and cooked, I could feed an army!!!

 

[Felipe]

I confess I was thinking of making a leisurely evening start with a stroll to Valcarlos next week until I read this report. On reflection, it might be better to wait 'til the morning and follow the crowds,

The case commented was quite odd, and anyway, this happened after Valcarlos.
From SJPP to Valcarlos are 12 km by paved roads. It is well signposted. I estimate 4 hrs (considering that it is a moderate climb, only pretty steep in the last part, from Arneguy to Valcarlos). In summer, and if you leave in the early afternoon, it is perfectly feasible. Just check the sunset hours, and make a reservation, just in case.
A note about crowds: you will not find so many people in this route. Although preferences apparently are changing, most people still take the higher, Napoleon route.

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

I am saying this because there seems to be a lot of anger and ridicule against these British pilgrims. Anyone who thinks that it is stupid and irresponsible to get lost is welcome to redirect some of it at me. No one gets lost on purpose. They go on making decisions as best they can or continuing on the route that they think is the right one, until they know it isn't but can no longer continue. Route finding is a gift for some, a challenge for others, myself among them. Show a little compassion and understanding to two people who survived a difficult situation.

You can add me to your list! I agree that no-one gets lost on purpose and even though it is a well marked route we don't know much about the two unfortunate souls.

Using myself as an example, I grew up reading and navigating with maps, have trekked in remote areas around the world pre GPS and have a wealth of experience finding my way by just the sun and stars.

Then in 2014 in the Lake District with hubby in tow (share the blame) we managed 18kms of an 11kms walk. Yes, we got ourselves very navigationally challenged! I eventually realised that we were navigating by our shadows and had turned ourselves around a full 180°. In the Southern Hemisphere we look north for the sun and in the UK it's south. Duh!!

Humans are funny creatures when lost. We actually rearrange the map in our hands to suit the perceived landscape. I'd read about it and made many of the same comments as this thread. And then I found myself lost.

Our experience did enable us to stop, take stock and retrace our steps and then my Eureka! moment got us literally back on track. But it was a sobering lesson in just how easily this happens.

 

[Albertagirl]

Humans are funny creatures when lost. We actually rearrange the map in our hands to suit the perceived landscape. I'd read about it and made many of the same comments as this thread. And then I found myself lost.

@Wokabaut_Meri
After getting very lost in the Rocky Mountains on one occasion, I carry with me a copy of a short magazine article called, "Mind the trap: Five ways our instincts can fail us." I try to read it and reflect on it every time I am out in the wilderness alone. It is to remind me to think and not just wander on oblivious. Sometimes it helps.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Daniel Boone, the American explorer, when asked if he ever got lost out in the wilderness, replied, "I can't say I was ever lost, but I was once bewildered for about 3 days."

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I don't remember reading that they were taking the Route Napoleon. Maybe they set off to go through Valcarlos, not that it explains much!

Isn't the Valcarlos route longer, requiring a night there before arriving in Rincesvalles? And they would have left at 4pm for that?! Even worse. Because the paper says they were hoping to spend the night in Roncesvalles.

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

@Wokabaut_Meri
After getting very lost in the Rocky Mountains on one occasion, I carry with me a copy of a short magazine article called, "Mind the trap: Five ways our instincts can fail us." I try to read it and reflect on it every time I am out in the wilderness alone. It is to remind me to think and not just wander on oblivious. Sometimes it helps.

There's a well know phenomenon called bending the map which is what I described about making the terrain fit your map.

I read a wonderful book, actually we discussed it when we were 'lost'. It's called Deep Survival: Who lives Who dies and Why by Laurence Gonzales and is a fabulous insight and very useful tool for adventurers of all types. It was the emphasis in the book on people NOT backtracking when they're lost that made us do exactly that.

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

Daniel Boone, the American explorer, when asked if he ever got lost out in the wilderness, replied, "I can't say I was ever lost, but I was once bewildered for about 3 days."

Bewildered is very close to the truth actually. The book Deep Survival that I referred to in my previous post details the physiological and psychological processes that unfold when someone is lost (chapter 9: Bending the Map). Fascinating read.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

So the albergue in SJPP had also told them it was too late to leave!

Not surprising they don't want to be identified or speak to the press .

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I hope they have an insurance. If not, I'm afraid they'll have to pay the rescue.

Why would they have to pay the rescue? I thought you only had to pay if you left in Winter when the road is closed? Not that I agree with thar rule: if you get on trouble because you don't listen to advice, I say pay up.

 

[Pabloke]

Why would they have to pay the rescue? I thought you only had to pay if you left in Winter when the road is closed? Not that I agree with thar rule: if you get on trouble because you don't listen to advice, I say pay up.

Somebody has to pay, like medical attention; nothing is for free. A helycopter costs more than 1000€ per hour.

In Spain, Social Security covers a lot of accidents and circumstances but just if you are insured. Spaniards and foreigners working in Spain.

If you have to be rescued in a car crash, your car insurance will pay it.

If you have to be rescued at home, your home insurance will pay it.

If you are walking by the street and the ground tumbles down and you need to be rescued, the city will pay it.

But if you have to be rescued in the mountain, you'll be the one who pay unless you got an insurance for that. It's not a punishment, I think is logical.

And of course, foreigners are not covered by any public insurance in Spain. So, if you don't have your own insurance, you pay any cost you cause. (Excepting if there's an agreement between Spain and your country)

 

[Pabloke]

I followed the Route Napoleon to Roncesvalles with no difficulty last fall. It was extremely well marked. But the fact remains that I had intended to take the alternate route through Ibaneta and I never saw any sign of it. I followed a couple of walkers down a marked steep hill and into the forest. No, I had no particular difficulty with that route and arrived in due time in Roncesvalles. But it was not my intention. I am saying this because there seems to be a lot of anger and ridicule against these British pilgrims. Anyone who thinks that it is stupid and irresponsible to get lost is welcome to redirect some of it at me. No one gets lost on purpose. They go on making decisions as best they can or continuing on the route that they think is the right one, until they know it isn't but can no longer continue. Route finding is a gift for some, a challenge for others, myself among them. Show a little compassion and understanding to two people who survived a difficult situation.

I don't think the problem is the fact of getting lost. The problem is the way they got lost.

I've walked part of the Camino del Norte and I got occasionally lost. The same walking the St. Olav's Way in Norway and the GR 11 through the Pyrenees.

You can miss a sign, you can take a wrong path (which actually's not a path), you can follow the right track which is clear through the forest but when it comes to an open area the track fades within the grass.

But if you want to go from St. Jean to Roncesvalles, crossing the Pyrenees, you cannot leave at 4pm. And you cannot wait 5 days before calling for help.

Anyway, yes, we should show more compassion.

 

[NorthernLight]

Leaving at 4pm on the Napolean route is a bad decision, leaving at 4 pm for Valcarlos would not be as big of a deal, as the route follows a busy enough road.

But if you are on the Napolean route, there are enough places where other hiking trails intersect, that you could easily enough get lost if you aren't paying attention or don't know the names of where you are going. There was one intersection spot where a group of non-English-speaking Japanese pilgrims were standing staring at the signposts, and not knowing which way to go. At least they stood there until someone else came along.

Once, I met a Filipino on the camino who had slept at Roland's fountain on top, one dry November night after he realized he would not make it down the mountain to Roncesvalle before dark. He had his sleeping bag and found an out of the wind spot. He considered heading to the shelter, but decided to stay with the water.

 

[alexwalker]

• Leaving at 4 PM for the longest stage on CF, on Day 1
• Defying warnings in SJPdP
• Overweight, according to photos: Physical shape?
• Poorly dressed, judging by photos
• Found walking in flip-flops
• Not going back when lost
• Not calling for help in 5 days
• Pack weight?
• ++?

Not an accident; a walking disaster area. Darwin at work, IMHO.

I completely agree with @t2andreo : They should cover all costs of this rescue.

 

[volleyjanice]

I sheepishly admit to a lot of laughter as I read through this. I agree with the concept that it is in fact possible to get lost in any conditions. The issue here is two people who need to take some personal responsibility for their actions. There is no shortage of information available about the Camino. Unless this story has been totally mangled regarding their start time in SJPP they truly made an idiotic decision and are lucky that it ended well for them. That said, I'm still chuckling.

 

[Theatregal]

I think some of the comments in this thread are in violation of Forum Rule #1. Yes, it seems like there were some questionable choices made by these folks, but we don't know them. We don't know anything about their situation and what actually led to the predicament they found themselves in. We human beings make good choices and bad choices and deal with the consequences of those choices and hopefully learn from them. Why the need to jump to name calling and derisive, mocking comments about physical type and level of intelligence? It is not my intention to sound preachy but I think it's sufficient to be thankful that they are safe and to take the story as a cautionary tale to be learned from. There is some really great practical preparedness advice in this thread - especially for future pilgrims preparing for their caminos.

 

[Felipe]

Well, this is probablye the matter of another thread, but anyway.
There has been some discussion in Spain about the relatively new practice of demanding a pay for mountain rescues. Between extreme positions there is a middle ground that apparently is the usual practice: the rescue service will be exacted when a person has showed “manifest recklessness”. Problem is, the definition may be a relative and subjective thing.
The alternative, probably, is a standard modern practice: an insurance.
In Spain, the affiliation to some trekking associations includes a not very expensive insurance covering mountain rescue (for example
http://www.fedme.es/index.php?mmod=staticContent&IDf=96
I don’t know it it is available for non residents, but I would not object if the Pilgrim's Bureau in SJPP starts to recommend (or demands) a short insurance amount just for this stage.
Considering that rescue operations are not so common, I guess this could be affordable.
Evidently, there are practical problems, as the binational aspect (but you could have probably noticed that the firemen of Burguete routinely rescue people in the French side, without jurisdictional entanglements).

 

[alexwalker]

We human beings make good choices and bad choices and deal with the consequences of those choices and hopefully learn from them.

• Good decisions come from experience.
• Experience comes from bad decisions.

The good that may come out of this is that now they (and many firsttimers) have gained some experience.

I agree that accidents can happen, and one can go astray in nature. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't excersize some common sense in taking care of your own life, including listening to advice from locals.

There have been numerous rescue operations in the last years in that area, many related to people walking with minimal or no knowledge of basic care-taking for themselves. Therefore, the authorities have started to charge full payback for rescue operations triggered by hazardous behaviour, ignorance of warnings, etc. These operations cost a lot of money, and it is understandable that Spain wants its costs covered.

This story is something for many new pilgrims to learn from. Take all advice you get, locally (and in here), and use it. These people didn't.

At sea (I hold a skipper certificate) we have a saying: "When in doubt, act as if there is no doubt". It has saved many lives. These people didn't know this saying.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Years ago I used to say that intelligence was the ability to solve a problem but now I add that it is first knowing that you have (or will have) a problem.

Anyway, Here is an example of hiking insurance. The U.S. state of New Hampshire sells a voluntary Hike Safe card. Their website at http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/safe/ says:

Buy Your Voluntary Hike Safe Card
Your Back Up Plan in the Great Outdoors!
Every purchase supports NH Fish and Game search and rescue efforts.

The New Hampshire Fish and Game Department is authorized to sell voluntary Hike Safe Cards for $25 per person and $35 per family. People who obtain the cards are not liable to repay rescue costs if they need to be rescued due to negligence on their part. The card is valuable for anyone hiking, paddling, cross country skiing or engaging in other outdoor recreation. An individual may still be liable for response expenses if they are deemed to have recklessly or to have intentionally created a situation requiring an emergency response.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

• Good decisions come from experience.

• Experience comes from bad decisions.

And one thing that experience teaches us is to learn from someone else's experience first. And that is why so many people ask questions here.

 

[VNwalking]

I agree that no-one gets lost on purpose and even though it is a well marked route we don't know much about the two unfortunate souls.
Humans are funny creatures when lost. We actually rearrange the map in our hands to suit the perceived landscape. I'd read about it and made many of the same comments as this thread. And then I found myself lost.
Our experience did enable us to stop, take stock and retrace our steps and then my Eureka! moment got us literally back on track. But it was a sobering lesson in just how easily this happens.

I had a similar experience on the San Olav this March. Because I have a good natural sense of direction, it was a new experience--but I did exactly that: taking what I could see with my eyes and arranging it so that it looked like a landmark on a map that I had downloaded onto my phone. I had always thought "I would never do that." Now I know better. The deluded mind can be very sneaky.

@Wokabaut_Meri
After getting very lost in the Rocky Mountains on one occasion, I carry with me a copy of a short magazine article called, "Mind the trap: Five ways our instincts can fail us." I try to read it and reflect on it every time I am out in the wilderness alone. It is to remind me to think and not just wander on oblivious. Sometimes it helps.

@Albertagirl, do you have a link to this? I'd enjoy reading it.

There's a well know phenomenon called bending the map
.... It was the emphasis in the book on people NOT backtracking when they're lost that made us do exactly that.

It's interesting to watch the mind when at a point to backtrack or not. Several times this March I found that it was often simple laziness that was saying, "What the heck...I don't want to turn around after going all this way...." Fortunately, the only time I listened to that thought it all came out OK. But it might not have done.

Years ago I used to say that intelligence was the ability to solve a problem but now I add that it is first knowing that you have (or will have) a problem.

I'm finding this thread instructive and very interesting--nothing to do with the hapless peregrinos in question (if they were that), but more because it shines the light on our universal tendency to sometimes rationalize stupid mistakes, and because I find I'm reflecting a lot on my own experience of being off track and have to admit my own tendencies to mess up. It's not necessarily good news, but always a good thing to be able to see.
Thanks, as usual Meri, for your constructive contribution...I'm going to go read that book!

 

[Albertagirl]

@Albertagirl, do you have a link to this? I'd enjoy reading it.

@Viranani
I have managed to scan the article, which is just paper torn out of a magazine, but I have no idea how to attach it. I could probably attach the files to an email, but that is about my capacity.

 

[VNwalking]

@Viranani
I have managed to scan the article, which is just paper torn out of a magazine, but I have no idea how to attach it. I could probably attach the files to an email, but that is about my capacity.

Wow, thank you, @Albertagirl! I'm probably not the only one who'd benefit from reading this (I googled the title and got many possibilities--most about life on the business realm. Hmm. Not quite. )
have you tried the button on the bottom right of the message screen that says 'upload a file'?
If you do that you'll get a file directory menu...if you can figure out where the file saved to just click on that and it should attach here. Otherwise, if you don't meet with success, send them to me and I can try posting them (I'll send you a PM with my email).

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

Wow, thank you, @Albertagirl! I'm probably not the only one who'd benefit from reading this (I googled the title and got many possibilities--most about life on the business realm. Hmm. Not quite. )
have you tried the button on the bottom right of the message screen that says 'upload a file'?
If you do that you'll get a file directory menu...if you can figure out where the file saved to just click on that and it should attach here. Otherwise, if you don't meet with success, send them to me and I can try posting them (I'll send you a PM with my email).

@Albertagirl if you can take a photo - or several if necessary - of the article and upload that I'll be able to convert into text and post it back up here as a pdf.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

@Pabloke, reading articles after the two pilgrims got stranded last winter about what they should pay. In their case, because they disobeyed the rules and got on the road when it was closed, they got charged, but even then there were rescue organisations who were against them being charged because they consider their work as a service.

 

[VNwalking]

@Albertagirl if you can take a photo - or several if necessary - of the article and upload that I'll be able to convert into text and post it back up here as a pdf.

@Viranani
I have managed to scan the article, which is just paper torn out of a magazine, but I have no idea how to attach it. I could probably attach the files to an email, but that is about my capacity.

Albertagirl very kindly sent me the scanned version--a good a thing for all of us to read--
Thank you!!
After reading it, I'm feeling more than a bit uncomfortable about tittering behind my hands about these peregrinos...the article makes it clear that we all have boundless potential for screwing up, and how.
Here is a digital version of the same piece:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201201/deadly-mind-traps

 

[C clearly]

Thanks @Viranani and @Albertagirl . I have sent that article to my mountain-climbing daughter.

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

Great article. Thank you both for your efforts in posting it here.

One last comment on our errant pilgrims... I'm sure that if we review our own exploits most would be able to recall one adventure that could have ended in disaster but didn't I can recount several!

We can only learn from this extraordinary account and benefit other prospective pilgrims if we know all or most of the facts. At the moment we don't.

I would hope that if our two newly found pilgrims came across our forum that they would feel the welcome and support so many of us have benefitted from here.

And if they do, wouldn't helping them over the disappointment of their first disastrous attempt and equipping them for a future Camino be worthy of our virtual albergue? It's what any of us would do if we met a pilgrim in need along the Way.

[/END RANT]

 

[SYates]

The one thing I keep wondering about (and will, most likely, never know the answer to) is what did they do during those five days. Even if you discount the lost and found days, there are still three full days they had available! What did they do during that 72h - wandering aimlessly around? Waiting for a mystic guide to turn up? Sit by the wayside and enjoy the sunshine? I know, futile to ask, but just can't help myself ...

SY

 

[NualaOC]

Great article. Thank you both for your efforts in posting it here.

One last comment on our errant pilgrims... I'm sure that if we review our own exploits most would be able to recall one adventure that could have ended in disaster but didn't I can recount several!

We can only learn from this extraordinary account and benefit other prospective pilgrims if we know all or most of the facts. At the moment we don't.

I would hope that if our two newly found pilgrims came across our forum that they would feel the welcome and support so many of us have benefitted from here.

And if they do, wouldn't helping them over the disappointment of their first disastrous attempt and equipping them for a future Camino be worthy of our virtual albergue? It's what any of us would do if we met a pilgrim in need along the Way.

[/END RANT]

A perfect post @Wokabaut_Meri, thank you. A compassionate rant is always better than a mocking one IMO (even though the latter might be much more fun at times!).

 

[VNwalking]

Yes, one definitely wonders--it makes no sense.
At the same time...

One last comment on our errant pilgrims... I'm sure that if we review our own exploits most would be able to recall one adventure that could have ended in disaster but didn't I can recount several!

We can only learn from this extraordinary account and benefit other prospective pilgrims if we know all or most of the facts. At the moment we don't.

I would hope that if our two newly found pilgrims came across our forum that they would feel the welcome and support so many of us have benefitted from here.

And if they do, wouldn't helping them over the disappointment of their first disastrous attempt and equipping them for a future Camino be worthy of our virtual albergue? It's what any of us would do if we met a pilgrim in need along the Way.

[/END RANT]

Meri, yes...totally, 100% right on--that wasn't a rant so much as a call for a collective re-set. Hopefully we can all use this pathetic example as an opportunity to look at our own propensity to mess up spectacularly and to learn from that, rather than resorting to ridicule. @Nuala, you put your finger on it--somehow making fun is more fun than doing that. Spoken as one who posted a not so kind response.

 

[Pabloke]

@Pabloke, reading articles after the two pilgrims got stranded last winter about what they should pay. In their case, because they disobeyed the rules and got on the road when it was closed, they got charged, but even then there were rescue organisations who were against them being charged because they consider their work as a service.

Well, this is probablye the matter of another thread, but anyway.
There has been some discussion in Spain about the relatively new practice of demanding a pay for mountain rescues. Between extreme positions there is a middle ground that apparently is the usual practice: the rescue service will be exacted when a person has showed “manifest recklessness”. Problem is, the definition may be a relative and subjective thing.
The alternative, probably, is a standard modern practice: an insurance.
In Spain, the affiliation to some trekking associations includes a not very expensive insurance covering mountain rescue (for example
http://www.fedme.es/index.php?mmod=staticContent&IDf=96
I don’t know it it is available for non residents, but I would not object if the Pilgrim's Bureau in SJPP starts to recommend (or demands) a short insurance amount just for this stage.
Considering that rescue operations are not so common, I guess this could be affordable.
Evidently, there are practical problems, as the binational aspect (but you could have probably noticed that the firemen of Burguete routinely rescue people in the French side, without jurisdictional entanglements).

Yes, you are right. Both.

I was convinced that it was the way I was saying. I've searched for information and the truth is that Navarre charges the rescues, as you said, just in case of imprudence.

Anyway, I don't think rescues must be for free. We are doing it voluntarily and we should take all possible precautions and preventions. Accidents may happen, but that's what insurances exist for.

A rescue means a big spending to the public funds.

 

[Kitsambler]

...This is the moment to come back to the paved road, look for the first farm or village in sight, follow a stream down the valley...

Actually I was right with you, and trying to get down to that stream, when I realized that I had put myself in an impossible situation: a 3-m cliff going in the upstream direction, and a 200-m cliff going downstream. Needed a boat! And fortunately I had phone reception. So the Czechs were lovely people to provide a rescue team.

 

[SYates]

Glad my 'neighbors' helped you and all ended well! Where was that (just being curious). Buen Camino, SY

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

The one thing I keep wondering about (and will, most likely, never know the answer to) is what did they do during those five days. Even if you discount the lost and found days, there are still three full days they had available! What did they do during that 72h - wandering aimlessly around? Waiting for a mystic guide to turn up? Sit by the wayside and enjoy the sunshine? I know, futile to ask, but just can't help myself ...

SY

I'm with you on that one! My 'rant' post* was done because often after such a spectacular (mis)adventure we don't get to find out what happened and therefore don't learn from their unfortunate experience.

The Camino is continuing to experience an increase in Pilgrim numbers. A tiny percentage of inexperienced walkers will find that their aspirations exceed their capabilities and will get into bother. It happens all over the world.

*to put this in perspective I walked the entire Francés with a navicular foot fracture. Duh! How dumb is that! During my recovery I had to endure much criticism and ridicule from well meaning 'experienced' outdoorsy friends and some scathing doom and gloom comments from health professionals. Only the footy guys, who had experienced and understood this particular injury, and members of this forum were supportive. I am forever grateful for that support.

 

[notion900]

How very English!

Not sure exactly what you mean by that.

There's every possibility that the two hapless hikers are members of this forum, so uncharitable pronouncements are probably best thought and not written.

One thing I learned hiking in New Zealand is that wherever you go, however adventurous and 'experienced' you think you are, you'll always come across someone whose backstory blows your feeble little trips out of the water. My mind did boggle at how they got lost, but I don't think I am so above them as to mock them. If any of you are feeling a bit smug, I suggest you read about Rosie Swale Pope.

 

[Penny Kingma]

It's made the UK newspapers too:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/17/british-pair-lost-for-five-days-on-pilgrimage-in-spain

I'm thrilled they were found and safe. For those of you that haven't left yet...do not let this frighten you. I have M.S. , I celebrated my 52nd birthday on the Camino . I left Canada alone with my guide book and my dreams. On the third day I donated that guide book along with half of my gear. With common sense, my Keen sandles, walking sticks and the dilegence of never making a turn without finding that arrow. I arrived in Santiago after 37 days 35 walking. No blisters, no injurys . Before I left I found fears creeping in because of some of the things written here. Take the fears or suggestions read and file them. Use them as a guide but not forgone conclusion of things to come. This is a very well marked, safe experience ....as long as common sense is utilized. Accidents happen but that could happen walking out your front door. Buen Camino my friends

 

[DurhamParish]

...the article makes it clear that we all have boundless potential for screwing up, and how.

Did someone say "Can I get a witness?"

Here I am.

 

[TG874]

I'm amazed that after five days their cell phone still had battery power...

My thoughts exactly - if the phone still had battery life I want one of those!!

 

[MickMac]

I am totally relieved they have been found safe and well Bear Grills and his friend must be mortified.

 

[zzotte]

David, that's a very nice way of saying hahaha I'm not as polite as you are I just say "dumb Asses" hahaha

zzotte

 

[April Jo]

I am wondering whether because so many people walk the Camino nowadays (perhaps no longer eliciting so many responses of "What's that?" or "Wow, that's amazing!") that some newbies are tending to underestimate the need for research and preparation?
Just wondering!

An example: I was talking to a woman at a conference who said her friend had just walked the Camino, so she decided she'd do the same for her 50th birthday. I applauded her, then offered her my email address, if she wanted me to send links to this Forum, and to a local pilgrim group. She looked quite offended, and huffily said "My friend will give me ALL the information I need!"

Well, lesser mortals like me benefitted hugely from intense preparatory research on the Forum, and direct help from Forum members while on the Camino, as well as preparatory tips from our local Pilgrims in Sydney. But I decided to save my breath, at that point!

But as something becomes more commonplace, perhaps its challenges and rare but potential hazards are not considered as much?

 

[dougfitz]

... did you know that one third of the human population have an IQ below 85?
I say no more .......

And half the population has below average IQ! But over 95% of them would not be considered to have an intellectual disability and the majority would be seen as perfectly normal members of society.

Even if those with IQs below 85 might have some level of cognitive impairment, linking that to the plight of these two doesn't appear to be justified on the basis of any of the information I have seen so far.

In addition, otherwise highly intelligent people may demonstrate low levels of spatial intelligence. While it might be suggested that they could make better choices when they do get lost, I am not sure that they are not also subject to the same flawed thinking patterns already described that kick in once people are in stressful and unfamiliar circumstances.

 

[compliance51]

Thank you to @Anemone del Camino and @billmclaughlin for confirming that suroeste means SW. It's just that SE would make a lot more sense when looking at the map.

. Brilliant description! Gave me a few flashbacks .

I've been wondering about this. That Friday night was one of the two nights where you could expect to see plenty of shootings stars (peak of the Perseid meteor stream). It was a clear night in the South of France and the Pyrenees. I wasn't there but I checked the Meteo France map and wished I was there. It would make sense to start late in the afternoon in this case. You would reach the top of the mountain just at the right time.

The Telegraph says that the two people are in their fifties.

 

[compliance51]

They are a little portly...

 

[notion900]

@compliance51 I am not sure that pointing out their physical shape is in the spirit of this forum.

What intrigues me is why they took 5 days to call for help. Maybe they were actually enjoying themselves? Maybe they played shepherd and shepherdess in that idyllic little shack?

 

[alexwalker]

@compliance51 I am not sure that pointing out their physical shape is in the spirit of this forum.

What intrigues me is why they took 5 days to call for help. Maybe they were actually enjoying themselves? Maybe they played shepherd and shepherdess in that idyllic little shack?

Agreed on your first point, although it takes some physical abilities to complete a Camino.

About enjoying oneself in a shepherd's hut: Of course, but not to the point that one must call for rescue assistance, perhaps?

One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far: Triggering a rescue operation that also puts the lives/health of the rescuers at danger.

 

[MTtoCamino]

@compliance51 I am not sure that pointing out their physical shape is in the spirit of this forum.

What intrigues me is why they took 5 days to call for help. Maybe they were actually enjoying themselves? Maybe they played shepherd and shepherdess in that idyllic little shack?

Shack?? Just pointing out the talent to build a stone house. That was a castle to someone. Glad to see they recognized a good shelter.
Keith

 

[patk]

This is a kind reply. We started at 7 am and reached Roncevalles at 5 pm with rests along the way. On the same day some US pilgrims with a GPS managed to get totally lost. The moral of the story is the 7p's. "Prior preparation prevents pretty poor performance".
Use a good guide and if you haven't seen an arrow for a while, stop and check. It's our responsibility as pilgrims to plan before we go, not hope some kind grown up will do it all for us.

 

[VNwalking]

Just goes to show that reliance on a GPS rather than the brain and eyes God gave us can lead to a bad outcome. These machines cannot think, so it helps to have map-reading ability and outdoor skills in addition to these admittedly powerful electronic tools, so that a manual override is possible.
(The article that @Albertagirl turned us onto shows the danger of turning off our cognitive function when using GPS. It's conclusion bears repeating here;
"Take yourself off autopilot. Become aware of your environment. Make a habit of skepticism, including skepticism toward your own assumptions and gut feelings.")

 

[MTtoCamino]

In the end all worked out, everyone back safe.

 

[FelixBC]

I wonder if they were following Paulo Coelho's route? In his book, The Pilgrimage, he leaves St Jean and meets his mysterious guide, Petrus. Together they walk the Camino in the Pyrenees for a week, never meeting another person. They eat only fish and fruits of the mountains, and he's cold even though it's high summer. On the seventh day he spots Roncesvalles below him. But then his guide reveals they've been crossing and recrossing the same 17km for 7 days, which they could have done in one. For Coelho it's a painful lesson in learning to pay attention to your path, instead of only your goal.

While reading, having done that walk, I could only wonder how did they not meet anyone in a week, a pilgrim or one of the many farmers tooling around in pickups?

Perhaps the British pair were seeking a similar enlightenment, and didn't want to spoil it by needing a rescue...

 

[FelixBC]

I wonder if they were following Paulo Coelho's route? In his book, The Pilgrimage, he leaves St Jean and meets his mysterious guide, Petrus. Together they walk the Camino in the Pyrenees for a week, never meeting another person. They eat only fish and fruits of the mountains, and he's cold even though it's high summer. On the seventh day he spots Roncesvalles below him. But then his guide reveals they've been crossing and recrossing the same 17km for 7 days, which they could have done in one. For Coelho it's a painful lesson in learning to pay attention to your path, instead of only your goal.

While reading, having done that walk, I could only wonder how did they not meet anyone in a week, a pilgrim or one of the many farmers tooling around in pickups?

Perhaps the British pair were seeking a similar enlightenment, and didn't want to spoil it by needing a rescue...

Admittedly, The Pilgrimage was first published in 1987, so the Camino would have barely been known then... He did it in old sneakers and took a sword.

 

[Albertagirl]

Agreed on your first point, although it takes some physical abilities to complete a Camino.

About enjoying oneself in a shepherd's hut: Of course, but not to the point that one must call for rescue assistance, perhaps?

One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far: Triggering a rescue operation that also puts the lives/health of the rescuers at danger.

@alexwalker
I suppose that I and others consider a summer rescue in good weather as necessary, in the circumstances, but not dangerous to the rescuers.

 

[homebuilt]

@alexwalker
I suppose that I and others consider a summer rescue in good weather as necessary, in the circumstances, but not dangerous to the rescuers.

The problem with calling out a rescue team for a non emergency and there is a genuine emergency then the rescuers will be unavailable to help.

 

[DurhamParish]

Admittedly, The Pilgrimage was first published in 1987, so the Camino would have barely been known then... He did it in old sneakers and took a sword.

Didn't he have his "Brierley"?

 

[SYates]

@FelixBC I seriously doubt that Paulo Coelho did the Camino on foot in 1987 ;-) It is a tale, a fiction story, not a travel memoir. Buen Camino, SY

 

[VNwalking]

@FelixBC I seriously doubt that Paulo Coelho did the Camino on foot in 1987 ;-) It is a tale, a fiction story, not a travel memoir. Buen Camino, SY

Awwww, geeeeee S. You mean all that stuff about Templars and black dogs and swords was made up??
(Tongue firmly planted in cheek)