Urban Myths

[rector]

Having nothing useful to do and after reading someone else saying that the purpose of the botafumeiro was to kill the smell of the pilgrims (which of course it must have by the way) can we have some of the other now accepted urban myths about out there.

 

[trecile]

Having nothing useful to do and after reading someone else saying that the purpose of the botafumeiro was to kill the smell of the pilgrims (which of course it must have by the way) can we have some of the other now accepted urban myths about out there.

I don't believe that's a myth. It's true that pilgrims in the middle ages stunk!

 

[rector]

You are of course correct and they still do, but they were also likely to be hungry, but it did not feed them. The purpose of incense in a religious setting had nothing to do with smell except as a side effect.

 

[David Tallan]

There's the urban myth of a pilgrim unjustly accused in Santo Domingo, saved from certain death by hanging by St. James and exonerated by a revived chicken.

Or did you mean the myth that you have to stop for the night where Brierley tells you to?

 

[rector]

That one David, is worth a good 8 points out of 10 and I come from the same island as Mr Brierley

 

[Kathar1na]

@rector: My favourite evergreens:

• medieval pilgrims carried a stone from home
• there was an altar to Mercury at the Cruz de Ferro site

@David Tallan: Doesn't the chicken incident qualify as a miracle?

 

[Aurigny]

The body of St James is buried in Santiago de Compostela.

(Don't shoot me, people. I'm as serious a Catholic as the next man or woman. But it seems to me that the odds of the Apostle's remains being physically there are long indeed.)

 

[Leibniz]

:there was an altar to Mercury on the Cruz de Ferro
:

That is completely false.

The altar was to Brian May.

 

[rector]

@rector: My favourite evergreens:

• medieval pilgrims carried a stone from home
• there was an altar to Mercury at the Cruz de Ferro site

@David Tallan: Doesn't the chicken incident qualify as a miracle?

7 out of 10 Kath And David is again 8 out of 10

 

[rector]

That is completely false.

The altar was to Brian May.

That Leib is worth 8 out of 10 whilst I liked Queen is was never too fussed on Brian May he like Mercury was only a mythical invention

 

[Kathar1na]

If you follow the Milky Way you will arrive in Santiago de Compostela.

 

[rector]

Well I live in Ireland and if I followed the Milky way I would end up back where I started having gone via Labrador, Beijing, Moscow, and Copenhagen.
But I will give you 8.25 out of 10
David Brilliant as you are you are under threat

 

[Robo]

The body of St James is buried in Santiago de Compostela.

(Don't shoot me, people. I'm as serious a Catholic as the next man or woman. But it seems to me that the odds of the Apostle's remains being physically there are long indeed.)

Go wash your mouth out with soap !
Next you'll be telling the kids that Santa Claus doesn't exist
I'll take the 'long odds' regardless

 

[Kathar1na]

The weight of your backpack has to be equal to 10% of your current body weight.

 

[rector]

I would not want to be a moderator, but if i was you would both be banned. ~Please folks remember that behind every myth there lies a truth otherwise it would be a legend.
I am sorry folks but to give either of you any points would I am sorry, could be, considered me condoning the non acceptance of the truth that lies behind these myths, and our sad existence depends upon one of these myths having some truth behind it, I think, but it is late here in Ireland and I was wrong once before.

 

[rector]

The weight of your backpack has to be equal to 10% of your current body weight.

Brad that is some backpack, just after Christmas, perhaps it will be lighter by Easter
8 out of 10

 

[Kathar1na]

The second bar is always better.

And for France - other than from Le Puy:
There will be a bar in the next village.

That's easily the greatest myth of them all.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

How does the myth that St. James killed Moors rate?

 

[rector]

The second bar is always better.

And for France - other than from Le Puy:
There will be a bar in the next village.

That's easily the greatest myth of them all.

That show a dire lack of faith, have you never watched the wizard of oz, the bar is somewhere over the rainbow.
3 out of 10 (only because it shows that lack of faith)

 

[naplesdon]

The second bar is a sign the guys who own the Bodega in Moratinos put up to attract pilgrims before the first bar. The sign is 100% correct.

 

[Bradypus]

That show a dire lack of faith, have you never watched the wizard of oz, the bar is somewhere over the rainbow.

I've walked in France and built up an almighty thirst and hunger many a day. Sounds all too true to me! And I've watched both versions of the Wizard of Oz and the Martin Sheen/James Nesbitt version was nowhere near as good as the original..

 

[Kathar1na]

3 out of 10 (only because it shows that lack of faith)

I'll wear this badge of honour with great pride - no one else got one of those.

I forgot to mention the myth that is a corollary to the one about the existence of bars in the next village in France:

If there is a bar in the next village, it will be open.​

 

[rector]

How does the myth that St. James killed Moors rate?

Well I never mix religion and politics but you go to the top of the class, how could a follower of the prince of peace do what he is supposed to have done?
Go to the top of the class 9 out of 10

 

[rector]

I've walked in France and built up an almighty thirst and hunger many a day. Sounds all too true to me! And I've watched both versions of the Wizard of Oz and the Martin Sheen/James Nesbitt version was nowhere near as good as the original..

James Nesbit comes from just up the road from me
2 out of 10 (that was just for the French bit)

 

[KinkyOne]

If you are in a bar in Spain and there isn't any live football coverage on the TV then you either are not in a bar or you are not in Spain

 

[rappahannock_rev]

I've watched both versions of the Wizard of Oz and the Martin Sheen/James Nesbitt version was nowhere near as good as the original..

Outrageous! Where is the Inquisition when we need it?

 

[Bristle Boy]

 

[rector]

The second bar is a sign the guys who own the Bodega in Moratinos put up to attract pilgrims before the first bar. The sign is 100% correct.

Perhaps it is there in case you Mythed the first one
PS I am away to bed I have to get up for work in the morning

 

[Albertagirl]

Well I live in Ireland and if I followed the Milky way I would end up back where I started having gone via Labrador, Beijing, Moscow, and Copenhagen.
But I will give you 8.25 out of 10
David Brilliant as you are you are under threat

@rector
I am not so sure about Beijing. Having flown through there, I suspect that it might be too far south to be on the route as you otherwise portray it.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

From what I've read you'll be lucky to even see the moon in Beijing.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

From what I've read you'll be lucky to even see the moon in Beijing.

That must be true. I know 2 people who have lived there for a year each teaching English and both say the sun never fully shines!

 

[Kathar1na]

Not really a myth but a firm belief that served me well elsewhere but badly let me down along the CF sometimes: there will be a bar opposite the church.

 

[jsalt]

Not really a myth but a firm belief that served me well elsewhere but badly let me down along the CF sometimes: there will be a bar opposite the church.

That’s not a myth, there is always a bar near the church. You’re not looking hard enough. There is an underground tunnel between the two as well.
Jill

 

[Camino Chrissy]

That’s not a myth, there is always a bar near the church. You’re not looking hard enough. There is an underground tunnel between the two as well.
Jill

Are you serious, Jill...or is this comment better suited for the "NOT a serious thread"?

 

[Deleted member 56069]

There's the urban myth of a pilgrim unjustly accused in Santo Domingo, saved from certain death by hanging by St. James and exonerated by a revived chicken.

Or did you mean the myth that you have to stop for the night where Brierley tells you to?

Haha, I'm a 'rebel' and seldom stay in the the designated Brierley stage points, one village early or later, generally cheaper and better.

 

[Kathar1na]

Are you serious, Jill...or is this comment better suited for the "NOT a serious thread"?

The tunnel that connects bar and church is a spiritual tunnel. Both body and soul need nourishment. As they say in Bavaria and presumably elsewhere: Siehst du das Haus des Herrn, ist das Wirtshaus nicht mehr fern - When you see the House of the Lord, the tavern isn't far away.

 

[Deleted member 56069]

The weight of your backpack has to be equal to 10% of your current body weight.

I would have to put on way too much body weight so that my back pack was only 10% of my body weight! I pack what I need. I don't even weigh my back pack anymore prior to a Camino. People focus way too much on gear and weight.

 

[David Tallan]

If you are in a bar in Spain and there isn't any live football coverage on the TV then you either are not in a bar or you are not in Spain

In July there may be an encierro.

 

[Vacajoe]

Some easy myths:
1. That you must start in SJPdP
2. You MUST have reservations or you’ll be sleeping in the street
3. All the beds are taken because BOOKING.COM says so

 

[Purky]

Some easy myths:
1. That you must start in SJPdP
2. You MUST have reservations or you’ll be sleeping in the street
3. All the beds are taken because BOOKING.COM says so

4. Threading a blister is a good idea
5. Silk liners stop bed bugs
6. Pilgrims who walk thirty kilometres a day or more, don't have time to smell roses

 

[jungleboy]

That must be true. I know 2 people who have lived there for a year each teaching English and both say the sun never fully shines!

It does, but rarely. I lived there for six months in 2008 and there were only five proper 'blue sky days' in that time. Lucky we hit the Great Wall on one of those days!

 

[VNwalking]

1. When you get to Finisterre you must burn your clothes and boots because that's what they did in the old days.
2. The 'whole camino' starts in SJPP, and the Frances from there is THE Camino.
3. 'Real' pilgrims _________________________. (Fill in the blank.)
4. _______________________ repels bedbugs. (Ditto, unless it is actually something toxic like permethrin.)

(Loving this thread, by the way - thanks, @rector !)

 

[Kathar1na]

'Real' pilgrims _________________________. (Fill in the blank.)

I didn't dare to go there ... there's too much of a grey area between urban myth, legend, and firmly held personal belief. That's why I didn't dare to add: The camino provides.

A less controversial myth:
Roncesvalles is run by monks.

1st order corollary myth:
They are Dutch monks.

2nd order corollary myth:
They are singing Dutch monks.

 

[Kathar1na]

Loving this thread, by the way - thanks

Ditto. I'm one big .

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I love the "twist" this thread has taken, turning from serious to very funny. Somewhere there is a similarly humorous thread, "You know you're a pilgrim if...".

 

[Kathar1na]

I love the "twist" this thread has taken, turning from serious to very funny.

Erm ... twist, what twist? What did you expect of a thread that started with @rector's "Having nothing useful to do" ...? Just because people don't plaster rows of s at the end of their posts doesn't mean that they are not making merry.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Kath, the first few responses to the OP seemed more like opinions on why incense is used at mass.
EDIT: In rereading the thread, I believe you are correct. ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺

 

[Kathar1na]

@Camino Chris, to be fair, I have to say, one can read some posts either way. For example, there were days when we nearly did die of thirst or hunger on the way through France and Il n'y a aucun commerce (no commercial services or enterprise in this town) is a matter of fact statement that we heard way too often when asking a local person, and we hadn't expected that at all. But when one of us says it now while reminiscing or otherwise we just burst into laughter. Hindsight and simply becoming more relaxed about it all does that to a person ... .

 

[GraemeHall]

That Leib is worth 8 out of 10 whilst I liked Queen is was never too fussed on Brian May he like Mercury was only a mythical invention

Reading Queen and Mercury in the same sentence is confusing me. Freddie???

 

[t2andreo]

Are you serious, Jill...or is this comment better suited for the "NOT a serious thread"?

I submit that the proximity of a bar to a church is true in most places where there is enough business to justify a bar / cafe. I have noticed this, but not made analytical note of it in my grey matter. Starting this year, I will.

The connecting tunnel MAY possibly be true, but certainly not in all cases.

One wonders if the bar / cafe proximity to the church is not, at least in part, a place of refuge for the men, while their wives are at Mass...boys will be boys...this is not limited to Spain.

 

[Bristle Boy]

Reading Queen and Mercury in the same sentence is confusing me. Freddie???

Who is this Queen Freddie of Mercury and why haven’t I heard of her before???...surely not an urban myth!!!

 

[Kathar1na]

Dispelling the following myth is probably as cruel as telling someone that Santa Claus isn't real but alas it's a myth that the Ponferrada building shown below was built by the Knights Templar. How many points - if any - do I get?

 

[naplesdon]

If you are in a bar in Spain and there isn't any live football coverage on the TV then you either are not in a bar or you are not in Spain

Except on Sunday when they are devoted to watching motorcycle races.

 

[t2andreo]

My mythical observation and contribution is:

Myth - It was not a boat made of stone. This was proven not feasible during the Great War (WWI) when ships were made of cast concrete, as an experiment. The buoyancy needed to navigate does not exist with so great a mass. But, things being what they are, the myth at Muxia is not going away anytime soon.

Myth - If myth #1 above is correct, then the notion of a boat self-navigating the length of the Mediterranean through the Straits of Gibraltar, up the Atlantic Coast, along the Costa de Morte (Coast of Death) into the port of Iria Flavia (Padron) is similarly improbable, albeit very romantic. But, again, be it far from me to dispel a really good story....

Legend - The two followers of St. James, Thaddeus and Athanasius escaped with his remains from Jerusalem to the, then seaport at (what is now) Haifa (IIRC). There, they obtained passage on a boat to convey the Apostle's remains to Iberia. This much was documented by Josephus, the first century historian of all things in that part of the empire... So, while I term it legend, this much may be a documented fact... or at least a historically documented fact...

FACT - At that time in history and throughout the Roman Empire, there were boats stopping at Mediterranean ports all around the Roman Empire, delivering manufactured goods from "Rome" and bringing back raw materials or other products desired from the far flung reaches of the empire. They certainly transited the Mediterranean between the Holy Land, Italy, 'Gaul,' and Iberia (present day Andorra, Portugal and Spain), as well as North Africa. Historical writings depict a regular pattern of port calls and trading relationships within the Roman Empire.

FACT - The, then major Roman port on the Mediterranean for Iberia was the present day Tarragona (nee Tarraco). Even today, this place remains a port city.

FACT - Maps of ancient Roman roads across Spain show one major and several subsidiary Roman Roads leading from the, then major port, of Tarragona across Spain to the region of Lugo, at Asturias. Extensions of these roads connected Iria Flavia (Padron) and the region now called Galicia and that of Santiago de Compostela (nee Assegonia) by the established network of roads for carts and wagons.

Here is a comprehensive map of medieval roads, patterned upon the Roman roads. The bolder green lines are the original Roman roads. The lighter lines are the roads built later, using the Roman Road network at a 'spine.'

http://fabricadesites.fcsh.unl.pt/mercator-e/results-2/medieval-roads/

Here is a 'modern' network representation map, similar to urban metro maps:

https://sashat.me/2018/11/21/roman-roads-of-iberia/

There were even sub-roads, built during Roman times that connected Assegonia (Santiago de Compostela) with Iria Flavia to the south and Lugo, in Asturias, to the north and west.

http://dare.ht.lu.se/

The point is that the facts easily support a cart-based transit of Iberia from the port of Tarraco / Tarragona...

Fact(ish) - told to me personally by the historian of the Cathedral - Records and reasonable conjecture based on known facts, indicate that it is more likely that the two followers of St. James, Thaddeus and Athanasius, obtained passage on a boat carrying stone statues from Carrera in Italy (or similar processed stone) to the Holy Land. Athanasius wrote that the two followers obtained passage on such a 'stone boat." It is also recorded that this boat was piloted by 'a follower.' This was a boat for the transporting of stone around the Mediterranean, not a boat MADE literally of stone.

Given this, the fact pattern supports this boat eventually making a regular port call at Tarraco. From there, conjecture has it that Thaddeus and Athanasius had a 'most excellent road trip' by ox cart. Their journey eventually led them, to the first-century Roman settlement at Assegonia (aka Santiago de Compostela).

This is where the combination of facts, legend, and myth combine to form the narrative we all (well most of us) subscribe to today. The Apostles' bones were placed in a family crypt within the first-century villa, owned by one of the nine-families Santiago converted during his first go in Iberia. The rest we all know from more or less documented facts.

Assessment of known facts, lightly documented facts, and logic, permit one to 'connect the dots..." at least IMHO.

So, my submission in support of the prize, is that it was not a boat constructed of stone. It was instead a boat constructed for the transport and trading of stone around the Mediterranean.

See explanation above...

Sorry about the length. Brevity is not among my few virtues...

Hope this helps the dialog.

 

[Pelegrin]

If you are in a bar in Spain and there isn't any live football coverage on the TV then you either are not in a bar or you are not in Spain

Or the pirate decoder has been recently confiscated by the police.

 

[VNwalking]

Dispelling the following myth is probably as cruel as telling someone that Santa Claus isn't real but alas it's a myth that the Ponferrada building shown below was built by the Knights Templar.

Boy I fell hard for that one.
It wasn't??!!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Dispelling the following myth is probably as cruel as telling someone that Santa Claus isn't real but alas it's a myth that the Ponferrada building shown below was built by the Knights Templar. How many points - if any - do I get?

View attachment 50270

This news has burst my bubble...a sad day indeed! Lol...100 points for you!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

My mythical observation and contribution is:

Myth - It was not a boat made of stone. This was proven not feasible during the Great War (WWI) when ships were made of cast concrete, as an experiment. The buoyancy needed to navigate does not exist with so great a mass. But, things being what they are, the myth at Muxia is not going away anytime soon.

Myth - If myth #1 above is correct, then the notion of a boat self-navigating the length of the Mediterranean through the Straits of Gibraltar, up the Atlantic Coast, along the Costa de Morte (Coast of Death) into the port of Iria Flavia (Padron) is similarly improbable, albeit very romantic. But, again, be it far from me to dispel a really good story....

Legend - The two followers of St. James, Thaddeus and Athanasius escaped with his remains from Jerusalem to the, then seaport at (what is now) Haifa (IIRC). There, they obtained passage on a boat to convey the Apostle's remains to Iberia. This much was documented by Josephus, the first century historian of all things in that part of the empire... So, while I term it legend, this much may be a documented fact... or at least a historically documented fact...

FACT - At that time in history and throughout the Roman Empire, there were boats stopping at Mediterranean ports all around the Roman Empire, delivering manufactured goods from "Rome" and bringing back raw materials or other products desired from the far flung reaches of the empire. They certainly transited the Mediterranean between the Holy Land, Italy, 'Gaul,' and Iberia (present day Andorra, Portugal and Spain), as well as North Africa. Historical writings depict a regular pattern of port calls and trading relationships within the Roman Empire.

FACT - The, then major Roman port on the Mediterranean for Iberia was the present day Tarragona (nee Tarraco). Even today, this place remains a port city.

FACT - Maps of ancient Roman roads across Spain show one major and several subsidiary Roman Roads leading from the, then major port, of Tarragona across Spain to the region of Lugo, at Asturias. Extensions of these roads connected Iria Flavia (Padron) and the region now called Galicia and that of Santiago de Compostela (nee Assegonia) by the established network of roads for carts and wagons.

Here is a comprehensive map of medieval roads, patterned upon the Roman roads. The bolder green lines are the original Roman roads. The lighter lines are the roads built later, using the Roman Road network at a 'spine.'

http://fabricadesites.fcsh.unl.pt/mercator-e/results-2/medieval-roads/

Here is a 'modern' network representation map, similar to urban metro maps:

https://sashat.me/2018/11/21/roman-roads-of-iberia/

There were even sub-roads, built during Roman times that connected Assegonia (Santiago de Compostela) with Iria Flavia to the south and Lugo, in Asturias, to the north and west.

http://dare.ht.lu.se/

The point is that the facts easily support a cart-based transit of Iberia from the port of Tarraco / Tarragona...

Fact(ish) - told to me personally by the historian of the Cathedral - Records and reasonable conjecture based on known facts, indicate that it is more likely that the two followers of St. James, Thaddeus and Athanasius, obtained passage on a boat carrying stone statues from Carrera in Italy (or similar processed stone) to the Holy Land. Athanasius wrote that the two followers obtained passage on such a 'stone boat." It is also recorded that this boat was piloted by 'a follower.' This was a boat for the transporting of stone around the Mediterranean, not a boat MADE literally of stone.

Given this, the fact pattern supports this boat eventually making a regular port call at Tarraco. From there, conjecture has it that Thaddeus and Athanasius had a 'most excellent road trip' by ox cart. Their journey eventually led them, to the first-century Roman settlement at Assegonia (akak Santiago de Compostela).

This is where the combination of facts, legend, and myth combine to form the narrative we all (well most of us) subscribe to today. The Apostles' bones were placed in a family crypt within the first-century villa, owned by one of the nine-families Santiago converted during his first go in Iberia. The rest we all know from more or less documented facts.

Assessment of known facts, lightly documented facts, and logic, permit one to 'connect the dots..." at least IMHO.

So, my submission in support of the prize, is that it was not a boat constructed of stone. It was instead a boat constructed for the transport and trading of stone around the Mediterranean.

See explanation above...

Sorry about the length. Brevity is not among my few virtues...

Hope this helps the dialog.

Tom, I have not read all of this yet, but your intellect is definately shining today!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Bristle Boy, I think this is the first I've personally noticed you on another thread besides the NOT! A big thanks to @rector.

 

[Bristle Boy]

Bristle Boy, I think this is the first I've personally noticed you on another thread besides the NOT! A big thanks to @rector.

Don’t very often post elsewhere CC...following
The little scallywag to see where it leads!

 

[Bradypus]

Myth - It was not a boat made of stone. This was proven not feasible during the Great War (WWI) when ships were made of cast concrete, as an experiment. The buoyancy needed to navigate does not exist with so great a mass. But, things being what they are, the myth at Muxia is not going away anytime soon.

Pumice?

Surprisingly ferro-cement was a very popular building material for sailing yachts at one time. Out of favour at the moment but plenty of examples still in use even now. A practical material for boat-building.

 

[rector]

My mythical observation and contribution is:

Myth - It was not a boat made of stone. This was proven not feasible during the Great War (WWI) when ships were made of cast concrete, as an experiment. The buoyancy needed to navigate does not exist with so great a mass. But, things being what they are, the myth at Muxia is not going away anytime soon.

Myth - If myth #1 above is correct, then the notion of a boat self-navigating the length of the Mediterranean through the Straits of Gibraltar, up the Atlantic Coast, along the Costa de Morte (Coast of Death) into the port of Iria Flavia (Padron) is similarly improbable, albeit very romantic. But, again, be it far from me to dispel a really good story....

Legend - The two followers of St. James, Thaddeus and Athanasius escaped with his remains from Jerusalem to the, then seaport at (what is now) Haifa (IIRC). There, they obtained passage on a boat to convey the Apostle's remains to Iberia. This much was documented by Josephus, the first century historian of all things in that part of the empire... So, while I term it legend, this much may be a documented fact... or at least a historically documented fact...

FACT - At that time in history and throughout the Roman Empire, there were boats stopping at Mediterranean ports all around the Roman Empire, delivering manufactured goods from "Rome" and bringing back raw materials or other products desired from the far flung reaches of the empire. They certainly transited the Mediterranean between the Holy Land, Italy, 'Gaul,' and Iberia (present day Andorra, Portugal and Spain), as well as North Africa. Historical writings depict a regular pattern of port calls and trading relationships within the Roman Empire.

FACT - The, then major Roman port on the Mediterranean for Iberia was the present day Tarragona (nee Tarraco). Even today, this place remains a port city.

FACT - Maps of ancient Roman roads across Spain show one major and several subsidiary Roman Roads leading from the, then major port, of Tarragona across Spain to the region of Lugo, at Asturias. Extensions of these roads connected Iria Flavia (Padron) and the region now called Galicia and that of Santiago de Compostela (nee Assegonia) by the established network of roads for carts and wagons.

Here is a comprehensive map of medieval roads, patterned upon the Roman roads. The bolder green lines are the original Roman roads. The lighter lines are the roads built later, using the Roman Road network at a 'spine.'

http://fabricadesites.fcsh.unl.pt/mercator-e/results-2/medieval-roads/

Here is a 'modern' network representation map, similar to urban metro maps:

https://sashat.me/2018/11/21/roman-roads-of-iberia/

There were even sub-roads, built during Roman times that connected Assegonia (Santiago de Compostela) with Iria Flavia to the south and Lugo, in Asturias, to the north and west.

http://dare.ht.lu.se/

The point is that the facts easily support a cart-based transit of Iberia from the port of Tarraco / Tarragona...

Fact(ish) - told to me personally by the historian of the Cathedral - Records and reasonable conjecture based on known facts, indicate that it is more likely that the two followers of St. James, Thaddeus and Athanasius, obtained passage on a boat carrying stone statues from Carrera in Italy (or similar processed stone) to the Holy Land. Athanasius wrote that the two followers obtained passage on such a 'stone boat." It is also recorded that this boat was piloted by 'a follower.' This was a boat for the transporting of stone around the Mediterranean, not a boat MADE literally of stone.

Given this, the fact pattern supports this boat eventually making a regular port call at Tarraco. From there, conjecture has it that Thaddeus and Athanasius had a 'most excellent road trip' by ox cart. Their journey eventually led them, to the first-century Roman settlement at Assegonia (akak Santiago de Compostela).

This is where the combination of facts, legend, and myth combine to form the narrative we all (well most of us) subscribe to today. The Apostles' bones were placed in a family crypt within the first-century villa, owned by one of the nine-families Santiago converted during his first go in Iberia. The rest we all know from more or less documented facts.

Assessment of known facts, lightly documented facts, and logic, permit one to 'connect the dots..." at least IMHO.

So, my submission in support of the prize, is that it was not a boat constructed of stone. It was instead a boat constructed for the transport and trading of stone around the Mediterranean.

See explanation above...

Sorry about the length. Brevity is not among my few virtues...

Hope this helps the dialog.

That is a 9.5 and if it helps the Carthaginians traded with Ireland and Scandinavia therefore they passed Galicia on the way.

 

[rector]

Pumice?

Surprisingly ferro-cement was a very popular building material for sailing yachts at one time. Out of favour at the moment but plenty of examples still in use even now. A practical material for boat-building.

Quite correct my friend they still make them as they have for the last 50yrs round the corner from our place and they sail very well

 

[t2andreo]

Tom, I have not read all of this yet, but your intellect is definately shining today!

Thank you Chris. You are most kind as always.

Being a left-brain, OCD person, I naturally wanted to know and understand in context, the basis of all the myths and legends. So, while I am at Santiago for a month each summer, I noodle around and ask questions. I visit libraries, I look in bookstores. My Spanish improves annually.

I usually get answers. The trick is to piece together information from different sources to develop an assessment of the most likely fact pattern. In fact, this is what I did the final six years of my professional career as an intelligence analyst.

One of the most interesting things is that several of the folks connected to the Cathedral have told me over several years, is that the cult of Santiago is so important to so many people across Spain, and so much of Western Civilization, that nothing would be served by publishing every stone cold fact, especially if out of context.

I was reminded that historical context is everything here. Unless you understood the historical and cultural context, you could not fully understand the meaning of the pieces of information and facts.

In other words, we KNOW enough of the facts to support what is celebrated and perpetuated as the cult of the Apostle Saint James at Santiago de Compostela.... There is no practical point to dispelling popular myths and legends, to the extent that they do not contradict parochial teaching. Put another way, some sleeping dogs are best left laying...

That was in response to the question..."is all of this in writing in one book, for anyone to read?" The answer, very diplomatically delivered, was that the facts are known. They are available to researchers who seek the truth. Evidently, the Cathedral has semi-closed archives, not available to the general public. Ooooh! I see a future Dan Brown novel here... Whoa, Tom Hanks walking the Camino in his search for 'the truth." ...my head explodes...

Most of the key facts are recorded in very ancient texts. Some of the information is first-hand, based on, then contemporaneous writing, letters, and diary accounts... Some of it is second-hand. The Cathedral works with the Vatican to accumulate everything learned about the life of the Apostle, evangelist, pilgrim, and martyr saint. I am told that the archives at the Cathedral are second only to the Vatican for thoroughness and scope.

But, like me, the researchers 'stitched together' what is KNOWN for fact, with what is believed with a very high degree of reliability based on the source. Unsupported beliefs and legends are only present in the Church's understanding insofar as it is absolutely necessary to bridge a remaining gap. As the years go by, more pieces to the historical puzzle are uncovered and fitted to the mosaic that is the cult of Santiago.

To paraphrase Yoda, the Jedi master... "...you either believe or you do not believe...there is no middle path..."

Thanks again for your kind words.

Hope this helps.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

About the myth of St. James' body being brought to Spain by a stone boat: I've heard that it was due to a mistranslation and that his body was actually transported by a rocket ship.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

About the myth of St. James' body being brought to Spain by a stone boat: I've heard that it was due to a mistranslation and that his body was actually transported by a rocket ship.

Hilarious! Seriously or NOT, Rick, you must think you are on that OTHER thread!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

P.S. Rick, you get 50 points out of 10 for that last post!

 

[Bradypus]

About the myth of St. James' body being brought to Spain by a stone boat: I've heard that it was due to a mistranslation and that his body was actually transported by a rocket ship.

Interesting theory! Do you think it's gonna be a long long time till touch down brings him round again?

 

[Kathar1na]

This news has burst my bubble...a sad day indeed! Lol...100 points for you!

How generous of you, thank you. I was expecting something like -10 or -20 points.

But yes, very sadly, no Templar knight has ever laid eyes on the as-you-imagined looking castle with the drawbridge and the crenelated towers. Nor on the older looking castle ruin inside the whole complex at the other end of the open space within the walls. Nearly everything from their time is gone, apart from the odd foundation stones and similar here and there.

 

[Kathar1na]

I am told

Just curious: Did they tell you where the bones of Priscillian and of his mates are resting?

I actually like the story of the marble boat that travelled without sails from Palestine to Galicia better than a narrative that tries to sound plausible to 21st century minds ... A saint without miracles isn't really a saint, I think?

 

[trecile]

Everyone has an epiphany on the Camino

 

[t2andreo]

Not that I recall.

I am aware that Priscillian was executed by decapitation / beheading by local authorities in Trier somewhere around AD 385 - 387. His remains were allegedly returned to Galicia around AD 396. Then and there, but I know not exactly WHERE, his remains were venerated by his adherents as a martyr.

This established, I am also aware of the Tracy Saunders book: "Pilgrimage to Heresy." The book is a novel. It postulates that the person buried under the altar at the Cathedral in Santiago de Compostela might be Priscillian and two of his followers and not that of the Apostle Saint James.

A novel is by definition fiction. Fiction is read for entertainment, not historical value. That it is based on documented history is interesting but not categorical. I offer the Dan Brown, professor Robert Langdon character as a prime example of the genre. Interesting and suggestive, but in no way authoritative.

The point at which the two person's presence in Spain converges is the fact that both were executed by having their heads removed using a sword. However, I suspect this is the sole point of intersection. First, some 340 years elapsed from the first decapitation event (James at Jerusalem) to the second (Priscillian at Trier).

What we know about the THREE skeletons discovered in the crypt back in AD 844 includes:

The crypt was in the ruins of a first-century Roman villa owner by a family known to have converted to Christianity. They were supporters of the Apostle James when he was evangelizing in Asturia... There are documents in the Cathedral archives that establish this. I knew the family name, but have since forgotten it. It was told to me.

The present day casket containing all three sets of bones was discovered in this first century crypt. When initially found by the hermit monk / shepard Pelayo, the face covering to the actual burial crypt niche was inscribed in Latin with the words, "Here is Iago..." That is how the initial identification of the Apostle Saint's remains was made around 844. The current hallway passage and walls date from the first century. That is established fact.

From the 1879 (IIRC) medical examination of the three sets of bones in the crypt, we know that one skeleton was of a large, well developed man in his 40s, who had been decapitated by sword. The other two skeletons were of men who apparently died of natural causes in their mid-sixties. Remember that the crypt was in fact inscribed... "Here is Iago..."

This follows the known and assessed, correct pattern of the first set of bones being those of the Apostle Saint, and those of the other two being the remains of Thaddeus and Athanasius. They were thought to have remained in the area following the first internment until they died natural deaths. The villa owners placed their remains in the same crypt as the Apostle Saint.

So, the logical question, if one was following the Priscillian substitution theory, is that this person would have had to be beheaded at around the same age - CHECK - Priscillian was in his mid-40s when executed.

However, the comparison grow thinner from that seemingly reasonable convergence. But, who were Priscillian's followers? Were there two, or more? Who conveyed the body to the first century villa, that, by 396 had been abandoned, overrun, sacked and destroyed by invaders from the north? The Roman family owning the villa originally were long gone.

There was no longer a settlement or village at Assegonia any more. The inhabitants had fled and dispersed so as to not be targets for invaders. Actual knowledge of the first-century internment of the Apostle Saint and his two followers was lost until rediscovery in 844.

While the hypothetical, fictional similarities do indeed exist, if one were to lay in parallel, all known facts and documented data points, I continue to believe that the crypt does indeed contain the Apostle Saint's remains.

As I said above... You either believe or you don't. I believe... That stated, I do respect the right of others to disagree.

Hope this helps the dialog.

 

[Kathar1na]

if one was following the Priscillian substitution theory

That wasn't my line of thinking when I asked the question. Wouldn't it be interesting to know the whereabouts of Priscillian's relics? He was a contemporary of Saint Martin of Tours. I saw his relics on my way to Santiago ...

So, shall we classify the "Priscillian substitution theory" as a myth within the context of this thread or is it a "nobody really knows issue"?

 

[Kathar1na]

There are documents in the Cathedral archives that establish this.

I don't mean to sound critical when I say that I always like to know the year when such documents were drawn up and preferably also who wrote them. When I started to have a closer look at things it was really confusing at first: most stories, be it about Saint James, or Charlemagne, or similar figures, are told as a ready made narrative in guidebooks and also other books. Then, slowly, I realised that the event that is presented to us as ready made, was described as such for the first time 400 years after the date when the event supposedly took place. Then I discovered how the narrative that is presented to us as ready-made developed slowly and got modified in numerous ways during the next 200 years. The actual more or less contemporary source for the whole story is perhaps one sentence of meagre content or even less. I find it quite fascinating - more interesting than the narrative itself - but all this takes us far away from contemporary camino myths of the urban kind.

 

[rector]

P.S. Rick, you get 50 points out of 10 for that last post!

Excuse me I give the points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and nobody gets more than 9.5

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Excuse me I give the points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and nobody gets more than 9.5

Can I get 9.5 five times?

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Can I get 9.5 five times?

My opinion is "Yes", but it's all about what @rector wants. He has the final word. (See above.)

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I notice this thread occasionally has been taking a twist and turn back to the serious side.

 

[rector]

I notice this thread occasionally has been taking a twist and turn back to the serious side.

True but I am seeing my doctor about that tomorrow and no, no person can get more than 9.5 Do you want to start yet another Myth

 

[Purky]

I like the myths surrounding the Pilgrim Shadow in Praza da Quintana, just because I am a hopeless romantic.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Is it just a myth that the pre-Christian pilgrims to Finesterre, after burning their clothes, bought their new duds at El Corte Ingles?

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Is it just a myth that the pre-Christian pilgrims to Finesterre, after burning their clothes, bought their new duds at El Corte Ingles?

No, Rick, they purchased their new duds at Decathlon.....duh!

 

[t2andreo]

That wasn't my line of thinking when I asked the question. Wouldn't it be interesting to know the whereabouts of Priscillian's relics? He was a contemporary of Saint Martin of Tours. I saw his relics on my way to Santiago ...

So, shall we classify the "Priscillian substitution theory" as a myth within the context of this thread or is it a "nobody really knows issue"?

I concur that it would be interesting indeed to know what happened to Priscillian's remains, as well as his relics. I note that, within Catholic doctrine, holy relics could mean any number of a number of things.

1. A first degree / class relic is generally a body part or bone fragment. These are the relics most fought over during medieval times.
2. A second degree / class relic is generally something that the individual owned, wore or used regularly, like clothing, a bible, crucifix, rosary, etc.
3. A third degree / class relic is something known to have been touched by the individual, or which has been touched to a first or second class relic.

So, this is two things. One is where is Priscillian? The second is where is his stuff?

I concur with placing this in the forum parking lot...until and unless something develops...of which we are both presently unaware of...

 

[t2andreo]

I don't mean to sound critical when I say that I always like to know the year when such documents were drawn up and preferably also who wrote them. When I started to have a closer look at things it was really confusing at first: most stories, be it about Saint James, or Charlemagne, or similar figures, are told as a ready made narrative in guidebooks and also other books. Then, slowly, I realised that the event that is presented to us as ready made, was described as such for the first time 400 years after the date when the event supposedly took place. Then I discovered how the narrative that is presented to us as ready-made developed slowly and got modified in numerous ways during the next 200 years. The actual more or less contemporary source for the whole story is perhaps one sentence of meagre content or even less. I find it quite fascinating - more interesting than the narrative itself - but all this takes us far away from contemporary camino myths of the urban kind.

You are not being critical, just circumspect. Let's face it, the only evidence that would be conclusive in the case of who is in the silver casket under the altar would be DNA forensic tests, and well as advanced carbon dating. But, for many many reasons, I do not see testing of the "bones in the box" ever happening.

Those technologies would categorically place the origins of the people in the box as being from the Holy Land. That much they CAN do. Absent familial DNA for matching, one cannot do more than that. Boy, THAT would be a hoot and a half!

This would, for example tell us if the supposed Apostle Saint James in the box, is a first century male, with DNA linking him to the eastern shore of the Mediterranean. Likewise for his two followers. That is as far as even modern science can take us.

In fact, the Israeli government uses this advanced technology regularly in its' advanced archeological work. This work continually pushes back the earliest documentable date of Jewish occupation of the area known as the Holy Land, or all of Palestine for that matter.

Again we come full circle...and STOP... to the issue of faith versus facts. Yoda was right...

We either believe at some point or we do not. My lay person's investigation and assessment over a few years, leads me to conclude and reach a point of belief, by a preponderance of the available evidence and testimony, that the bones in the silver casket are more likely than not the bones of the Apostle Saint and his two followers. My confidence rate is in excess of 80 percent.

Being named for the Apostle Thomas, and having gone through life with a sceptical manner, I do not accept information at face value. I tend to want to satisfy myself about the provenance and apparent veracity of the source of the information.

I am comfortable with where I find myself in this regard.

Hope this furthers the dialog.

 

[t2andreo]

True but I am seeing my doctor about that tomorrow and no, no person can get more than 9.5 Do you want to start yet another Myth

Sorry, while I do have a sense of humor, I don't DO humor very well. My default approach to life is serious as a heart attack.

It is just the way I am wired...weird, but it is what it is...

 

[drvnsmiln]

My mythical observation and contribution is:

Myth - It was not a boat made of stone. This was proven not feasible during the Great War (WWI) when ships were made of cast concrete, as an experiment. The buoyancy needed to navigate does not exist with so great a mass. But, things being what they are, the myth at Muxia is not going away anytime soon.

Myth - If myth #1 above is correct, then the notion of a boat self-navigating the length of the Mediterranean through the Straits of Gibraltar, up the Atlantic Coast, along the Costa de Morte (Coast of Death) into the port of Iria Flavia (Padron) is similarly improbable, albeit very romantic. But, again, be it far from me to dispel a really good story....

Legend - The two followers of St. James, Thaddeus and Athanasius escaped with his remains from Jerusalem to the, then seaport at (what is now) Haifa (IIRC). There, they obtained passage on a boat to convey the Apostle's remains to Iberia. This much was documented by Josephus, the first century historian of all things in that part of the empire... So, while I term it legend, this much may be a documented fact... or at least a historically documented fact...

FACT - At that time in history and throughout the Roman Empire, there were boats stopping at Mediterranean ports all around the Roman Empire, delivering manufactured goods from "Rome" and bringing back raw materials or other products desired from the far flung reaches of the empire. They certainly transited the Mediterranean between the Holy Land, Italy, 'Gaul,' and Iberia (present day Andorra, Portugal and Spain), as well as North Africa. Historical writings depict a regular pattern of port calls and trading relationships within the Roman Empire.

FACT - The, then major Roman port on the Mediterranean for Iberia was the present day Tarragona (nee Tarraco). Even today, this place remains a port city.

FACT - Maps of ancient Roman roads across Spain show one major and several subsidiary Roman Roads leading from the, then major port, of Tarragona across Spain to the region of Lugo, at Asturias. Extensions of these roads connected Iria Flavia (Padron) and the region now called Galicia and that of Santiago de Compostela (nee Assegonia) by the established network of roads for carts and wagons.

Here is a comprehensive map of medieval roads, patterned upon the Roman roads. The bolder green lines are the original Roman roads. The lighter lines are the roads built later, using the Roman Road network at a 'spine.'

http://fabricadesites.fcsh.unl.pt/mercator-e/results-2/medieval-roads/

Here is a 'modern' network representation map, similar to urban metro maps:

https://sashat.me/2018/11/21/roman-roads-of-iberia/

There were even sub-roads, built during Roman times that connected Assegonia (Santiago de Compostela) with Iria Flavia to the south and Lugo, in Asturias, to the north and west.

http://dare.ht.lu.se/

The point is that the facts easily support a cart-based transit of Iberia from the port of Tarraco / Tarragona...

Fact(ish) - told to me personally by the historian of the Cathedral - Records and reasonable conjecture based on known facts, indicate that it is more likely that the two followers of St. James, Thaddeus and Athanasius, obtained passage on a boat carrying stone statues from Carrera in Italy (or similar processed stone) to the Holy Land. Athanasius wrote that the two followers obtained passage on such a 'stone boat." It is also recorded that this boat was piloted by 'a follower.' This was a boat for the transporting of stone around the Mediterranean, not a boat MADE literally of stone.

Given this, the fact pattern supports this boat eventually making a regular port call at Tarraco. From there, conjecture has it that Thaddeus and Athanasius had a 'most excellent road trip' by ox cart. Their journey eventually led them, to the first-century Roman settlement at Assegonia (akak Santiago de Compostela).

This is where the combination of facts, legend, and myth combine to form the narrative we all (well most of us) subscribe to today. The Apostles' bones were placed in a family crypt within the first-century villa, owned by one of the nine-families Santiago converted during his first go in Iberia. The rest we all know from more or less documented facts.

Assessment of known facts, lightly documented facts, and logic, permit one to 'connect the dots..." at least IMHO.

So, my submission in support of the prize, is that it was not a boat constructed of stone. It was instead a boat constructed for the transport and trading of stone around the Mediterranean.

See explanation above...

Sorry about the length. Brevity is not among my few virtues...

Hope this helps the dialog.

I have heard that about the boat somewhere as well

 

[Camino Chrissy]

The way you are wired, Tom, is what makes you so very informative and helpful to so many. I love reading your posts. It's like going to the library for some detailed research, but I don't have to! ☺

 

[t2andreo]

The way you are wired, Tom, is what makes you so very informative and helpful to so many. I love reading your posts. It's like going to the library for some detailed research, but I don't have to! ☺

Thank you again for your very kind words.

 

[Bristle Boy]

We are all wired (and weird) in various and complex ways. Like the way @t2andreo puts it, both literal and thoughtful.
Myself, I prefer the sceptical, but open minded, approach in all things myth(ical) and like my tales provable (Science exists as man’s detective to the past).......”Cheddar man” being one such example!) So the science is there to prove clarity to much that was previously myth and sometimes truth is stranger than fiction and just sometimes....the two collide.
Humour comes in many forms!...and sometimes a questioning mind provides solutions to “myths” which lead the the thoughtful to accept the “probability” option as acceptable.
Elvis is alive and well!!! I read it somewhere!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I saw Elvis in Las Vegas last year. I KNOW he is alive!

 

[Dougie1982valley]

Myth - The Meseta is an arduos, never ending slog.

Reality - Enchanting bliss.

(Hindsight is a wonderful thing)

 

[Bristle Boy]

I saw Elvis in Las Vegas last year. I KNOW he is alive!

You can’t have....he works in our chip shop!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

You can’t have....he works in our chip shop!

Zing!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Myth - The Meseta is an arduos, never ending slog.

Reality - Enchanting bliss.

(Hindsight is a wonderful thing)

Myth - The Meseta is enchanting bliss.
Reality - Arduous, slowly ending slog.
(Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The Meseta is great....it has its own special charm!)

 

[Dougie1982valley]

Touché

 

[Deleted member 397]

Not that I recall.

I am aware that Priscillian was executed by decapitation / beheading by local authorities in Trier somewhere around AD 385 - 387. His remains were allegedly returned to Galicia around AD 396. Then and there, but I know not exactly WHERE, his remains were venerated by his adherents as a martyr.

This established, I am also aware of the Tracy Saunders book: "Pilgrimage to Heresy." The book is a novel. It postulates that the person buried under the altar at the Cathedral in Santiago de Compostela might be Priscilla and two of his followers and not that of the Apostle Saint James.

A novel is by definition fiction. Fiction is read for entertainment, not historical value. That it is based on documented history is interesting but not categorical. I offer the Dan Brown, professor Robert Langdon character as a prime example of the genre. Interesting and suggestive, but in no way authoritative.

The point at which the two person's presence in Spain converges is the fact that both were executed by having their heads removed using a sword. However, I suspect this is the sole point of intersection. First, some 340 years elapsed from the first decapitation event (James at Jerusalem) to the second (Priscillian at Trier).

What we know about the THREE skeletons discovered in the crypt back in AD 844 includes:

The crypt was in the ruins of a first-century Roman villa owner by a family known to have converted to Christianity. They were supporters of the Apostle James when he was evangelizing in Asturia... There are documents in the Cathedral archives that establish this. I knew the family name, but have since forgotten it. It was told to me.

The present day casket containing all three sets of bones was discovered in this first century crypt. When initially found by the hermit monk / shepard Pelayo, the face covering to the actual burial crypt niche was inscribed in Latin with the words, "Here is Iago..." That is how the initial identification of the Apostle Saint's remains was made around 844. The current hallway passage and walls date from the first century. That is established fact.

From the 1879 (IIRC) medical examination of the three sets of bones in the crypt, we know that one skeleton was of a large, well developed man in his 40s, who had been decapitated by sword. The other two skeletons were of men who apparently died of natural causes in their mid-sixties. Remember that the crypt was in fact inscribed... "Here is Iago..."

This follows the known and assessed, correct pattern of the first set of bones being those of the Apostle Saint, and those of the other two being the remains of Thaddeus and Athanasius. They were thought to have remained in the area following the first internment until they died natural deaths. The villa owners placed their remains in the same crypt as the Apostle Saint.

So, the logical question, if one was following the Priscillian substitution theory, is that this person would have had to be beheaded at around the same age - CHECK - Priscillian was in his mid-40s when executed.

However, the comparison grow thinner from that seemingly reasonable convergence. But, who were Priscillian's followers? Where there two, or more? Who conveyed the body to the first century villa, that, by 396 had been abandoned, overrun, sacked and destroyed by invaders from the north? The Roman family owning the villa originally were long gone.

There was no longer a settlement or village at Assegonia any more. The inhabitants had fled and dispersed so as to not be targets for invaders. Actual knowledge of the first-century internment of the Apostle Saint and his two followers was lost until rediscovery in 844.

While the hypothetical, fictional similarities do indeed exist, if one were to lay in parallel, all known facts and documented data points, I continue to believe that the crypt does indeed contain the Apostle Saint's remains.

As I said above... You either believe or you don't. I believe... That stated, I do respect the right of others to disagree.

Hope this helps the dialog.

Prisicillian?....I thought he was Queen Of The Desert

 

[David Tallan]

Boy I fell hard for that one.
It wasn't??!!

From what I remember from what I read when I was last there, pretty much all of the castle that you see and tour was constructed after the Templars were no more. There was one room that they said dated back to the Templars. The rest was later.

 

[David Tallan]

It is a myth that getting a ride for some of the Way is not what medieval pilgrims did.

I am reading the 12th century pilgrim's guide right now (Melczer's English translation) and he is very clear on that. Discussing the thirteen daily journeys in Chapter II of Book V, the author says "... the fourth, from Estella to the city of Najera is to be made, to be sure, on horseback; the fifth, from Najera to the city called Burgos is to be made equally on horseback." The clear implication is that some of the way was ridden and some was not. That might also help explain the very different lengths of his daily stages. I would guess that he grabbed rides where he could and walked where he couldn't.

He doesn't say whether he used baggage carrying services.

 

[MichelleO]

I don't believe that's a myth. It's true that pilgrims in the middle ages stunk!

Some modern day Pilgrims stink too!

 

[Robo]

Pumice?

Surprisingly ferro-cement was a very popular building material for sailing yachts at one time. Out of favour at the moment but plenty of examples still in use even now. A practical material for boat-building.

Yep, plenty of cement boats around.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_ship