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COVID Vaccination timing for hospitaleros?

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James van Hemert

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Past OR future Camino
2021
When will hospitaleros/as and inn keepers be vaccinated? I do not find reports they are considered for early vaccinations ahead of their age cohorts. It would be prudent and safest for all if everyone in an albergue were vaccinated before we share neals and dormitories.
 
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Marc S.

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When will hospitaleros/as and inn keepers be vaccinated?

I do not know. In my country priority in vaccination is given to the elderly, the people with serious health conditions, the healthcare workers, and so on. And then (with slightly less priority) the barmen. As much as I long for a beer in my local pub, I can understand the rationale behind these priorities. I can imagine Spain has similar priorities and vaccination of hospitaleros is perhaps not top priority.

It would be prudent and safest for all if everyone in an albergue were vaccinated before we share neals and dormitories.

I agree. But maybe pilgrims wishing to share meals and dormitories is not the main Spanish priority at this moment ?

Just be a little patient.:)
 
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Past OR future Camino
2012
When will hospitaleros/as and inn keepers be vaccinated? I do not find reports they are considered for early vaccinations ahead of their age cohorts. It would be prudent and safest for all if everyone in an albergue were vaccinated before we share neals and dormitories.
Well, that might be a really good question for the Camino authorities, except there aren’t any. There is no-one in charge of the Camino, there is no-one who would organize such a scheme and probably no-one who could even if they would. Albergues will reopen when Spanish authorities permit them to and subject to whatever criteria said authorities choose to apply. As a given, no citizen of the EU or EC can be compelled to accept vaccination. Even those sat with their sleeves rolled up and eager will have to wait their turn. I think it likely that Albergue staff are fairly far down the list of priority vaccination targets.
 

Peter Fransiscus

Be a Rainbow in someone else's cloud.
Past OR future Camino
All that we are is the result of what we have thought.
When will hospitaleros/as and inn keepers be vaccinated? I do not find reports they are considered for early vaccinations ahead of their age cohorts. It would be prudent and safest for all if everyone in an albergue were vaccinated before we share neals and dormitories.
When it is their turn in terms of age. My question to you is why they should be pricked earlier than, for example, people who work in shops and the like?
 

James van Hemert

New Member
Past OR future Camino
2021
When it is their turn in terms of age. My question to you is why they should be pricked earlier than, for example, people who work in shops and the like?
I am merely seeking information. Every jurisdiction makes its own determination on vaccination order of priority. Here in British Columbia for example all health care workers, teachers, First Nation people, and isolated communities are being vaccinated ahead of the age cohort order.
 
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Marc S.

Active Member
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Since 2012: CF, CdN, CP, Salvador, Aragones, Via Regia, Elisabethpfad, Jakobsweg NRW, Jakibspaad.
I am merely seeking information.

El Pais just published an article today about the progress of vaccination in Spain. It at least gives some insight in the projected time schedule. Hope this is helpfull !

 
D

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When it is their turn in terms of age. My question to you is why they should be pricked earlier than, for example, people who work in shops and the like?
Indeed ...

Hath not people who work in shops and the like eyes? Hath not a retail worker hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases ... If you prick them, do they not bleed?
 

Faye Walker

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
CF 2014, CF 2018, CP 2019 from Coimbra
I think that for the question to be useful, everyone needs to remember that at this point vaccines are thought to be as effective as advertised only for about 3 months. After that? We do not know because we are, effectively, in the phase 3 mass trial now. Usually Phase 3 is completed with very large "representative populations" prior to release to the general public, but we rushed to mass vaccination because of the desperateness of the situation.
But if, like me, you are being vaccinated now (I'm in a priority group), it would be an error to think that, for example, you are "good to go" for volunteering to be in close quarters with dozens and dozens of different people on successive days for 2-4 weeks after Spain re-opens to outside EU visitors at the end of August or early September.
We will know far far better by the end of 2021 whether the vaccines are stable for protection over time, and useful against variants.
The two significant risks right now are 1) that rolling vaccination priority groups place phase 1 recipients in expired protection status before we finish the final rounds of delivery, and 2) that the current vaccines cannot quell the pandemic because the roll-out is too slow (allowing people to start running around as though they are "good to go" when the data show that they are not, and allowing mutations time to take hold).
Really people... love the camino from afar. Send your money to the businesses individually, to the charities distributing funds to albergues, and buy their remote offerings (maps, books, Ivar's store...), but if we really love the people of Spain and not just our privilege to stomp all over their country, then I think we should leave Camino to the Schengen approved "locals" for 2021.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
When will hospitaleros/as and inn keepers be vaccinated? I do not find reports they are considered for early vaccinations ahead of their age cohorts. It would be prudent and safest for all if everyone in an albergue were vaccinated before we share neals and dormitories.
It sounds like a great idea at first. There is indeed no indication that hospitaleros of pilgrim albergues are considered a priority group, and given that they are a very small group, in comparison to other categories, I don't see that they will ever be considered separately.

FWIW, the newest estimate (don't know how reliable the source is but I personally regard it as fairly reliable) says that Spain is now projected to have 57 % of the population vaccinated by the end of June 2021. Germany, Spain and Italy, ie EU countries with a similar population size, currently have very similar estimates.

Everyone who thinks of walking in Spain has to draw their own conclusions from this ...
 
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Deleted member 73526

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Pfizer/BioNTech recently released data to show that its vaccine is highly effective (91%) at six months. Some experts have expressed confidence that it should protect people for significantly longer than that.

Source: CNN (based on the manufacturer's announcement):
 
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Mr. Walker

Member
I think that for the question to be useful, everyone needs to remember that at this point vaccines are thought to be as effective as advertised only for about 3 months. After that? We do not know because we are, effectively, in the phase 3 mass trial now. Usually Phase 3 is completed with very large "representative populations" prior to release to the general public, but we rushed to mass vaccination because of the desperateness of the situation.
But if, like me, you are being vaccinated now (I'm in a priority group), it would be an error to think that, for example, you are "good to go" for volunteering to be in close quarters with dozens and dozens of different people on successive days for 2-4 weeks after Spain re-opens to outside EU visitors at the end of August or early September.
We will know far far better by the end of 2021 whether the vaccines are stable for protection over time, and useful against variants.
The two significant risks right now are 1) that rolling vaccination priority groups place phase 1 recipients in expired protection status before we finish the final rounds of delivery, and 2) that the current vaccines cannot quell the pandemic because the roll-out is too slow (allowing people to start running around as though they are "good to go" when the data show that they are not, and allowing mutations time to take hold).
Really people... love the camino from afar. Send your money to the businesses individually, to the charities distributing funds to albergues, and buy their remote offerings (maps, books, Ivar's store...), but if we really love the people of Spain and not just our privilege to stomp all over their country, then I think we should leave Camino to the Schengen approved "locals" for 2021.
I hear what you say and I agree to a certain degree. But if there are no restrictions and the Spanish government says tourist are welcome again (vaccinated or with a negative covid test taken 72 hours before arrival) I would go in a heartbeat.
I don’t see why someone should feel they are not good to go under those circumstances.
 
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Faye Walker

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
CF 2014, CF 2018, CP 2019 from Coimbra
I hear what you say and I agree to a certain degree. I do however believe that if there are no restrictions and the Spanish government says tourist are welcome again (vaccinated or with a negative covid test taken 72 hours before arrival) I would go in a heartbeat.
I don’t see why someone should feel they are good to go under those circumstances.
I think?? you meant to say "should not think they are good to go"? ... and to me that's an ethical question I prefer to solve by not putting my desires first and instead spending money to support the charities and shops and individual albergues from a distance. I have purchased items this year from Ivar, and from Wise Pilgrim, sent money to the CCOP to distribute to albergues, and sent money to individual albergues I enjoyed in particular. Every month I spend about 10% of what I would spend on the ground on a camino so that by the end of this year I had spent about 20% more on camino services and goods than I would on a regular camino trip.

Why would I go for my own sake when I can meet the tourist needs of the camino areas from a distance?

Because governments can be motivated by economic needs to allow things they would not otherwise, I will not exploit that when I have other options. Every single one of us contemplating travel has other options. "Oh, but I am sick now and maybe I won't live long enough for this bucket list item," is not IMHO, a valid reason to risk the health and safety of others.

I am certainly hopeful that my jab today will be Pfizer, and I'm hopeful that by September the data on lasting immunity will be better, but we don't have that yet.

Living in a region that depends quite heavily on US tourism to our cottage region, I would rather not receive the money if it means having to be inundated with entitled tourists. I have the same perspective on Canadian snowbirds who are happy to go stomping on economically needful areas in the US. "They need my money" is an unethical reason to grant the hall-pass.

I work on community-based health issues and we are not allowed to exploit economic need to acquire access to vulnerable populations. It's just an ethical non-starter. I'm applying the same principle to my desire for a return to Spain.
 

Mr. Walker

Member
I think?? you meant to say "should not think they are good to go"? ... and to me that's an ethical question I prefer to solve by not putting my desires first and instead spending money to support the charities and shops and individual albergues from a distance. I have purchased items this year from Ivar, and from Wise Pilgrim, sent money to the CCOP to distribute to albergues, and sent money to individual albergues I enjoyed in particular. Every month I spend about 10% of what I would spend on the ground on a camino so that by the end of this year I had spent about 20% more on camino services and goods than I would on a regular camino trip.

Why would I go for my own sake when I can meet the tourist needs of the camino areas from a distance?

Because governments can be motivated by economic needs to allow things they would not otherwise, I will not exploit that when I have other options. Every single one of us contemplating travel has other options. "Oh, but I am sick now and maybe I won't live long enough for this bucket list item," is not IMHO, a valid reason to risk the health and safety of others.

I am certainly hopeful that my jab today will be Pfizer, and I'm hopeful that by September the data on lasting immunity will be better, but we don't have that yet.

Living in a region that depends quite heavily on US tourism to our cottage region, I would rather not receive the money if it means having to be inundated with entitled tourists. I have the same perspective on Canadian snowbirds who are happy to go stomping on economically needful areas in the US. "They need my money" is an unethical reason to grant the hall-pass.

I work on community-based health issues and we are not allowed to exploit economic need to acquire access to vulnerable populations. It's just an ethical non-starter. I'm applying the same principle to my desire for a return to Spain.
Wow, you are a saint. Maybe by the time I get to Santiago de Campostela I will be as enlightened as you.
All jokes aside.. If the Spanish government says tourists are welcome, if there are no restrictions crossing regional borders, if the hostels are opened again, the restaurants and bars as well you still think one should wait and not go because of ethical reasons? One should just stay at home and donate money? Until when?
 

alexwalker

Forever Pilgrim
Past OR future Camino
(2009): Camino Frances
(2011): Sevilla-Salamanca, VdlP
(2012): Salamanca-SdC, VdlP
(2014): SJpdP-Astorga
(2015): Astorga-SdC
(2016) May Pamplona-Moratinos; Sept.:Burgos-SdC
(2016): August/Sept: Camino San Olav (Burgos-Covarubbias), Burgos-Sarria
(2017): May: Portuguese; Sept: Pamplona-SdC
All jokes aside.. If the Spanish government says tourists are welcome, if there are no restrictions crossing regional borders, if the hostels are opened again, the restaurants and bars as well you still think one should wait and not go because of ethical reasons?
Some countries are desperate to open up, at almost all cost. An even better example is Hellas (Greece). Those countries (and others in the Meditteranian area) are completely depending on tourism income. I won't go anywhere until I am fully vaccined, for the sake of both myself as well as the country I am visiting.

But this is off-topic to the OP's intentions, so I am leaving it at that..
 
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Mr. Walker

Member
Some countries are desperate to open up, at almost all cost. An even better example is Hellas (Greece). Those countries (and others in the Meditteranian area) are completely depending on tourism income. I won't go anywhere until I am fully vaccined, for the sake of both myself as well as the country I am visiting.
Hear hear! Vaccinated or negative Covid-test 72 hours before arrival. Can’t see what would be unethical or selfish about that.
 
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Faye Walker

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
CF 2014, CF 2018, CP 2019 from Coimbra
Wow, you are a saint. Maybe by the time I get to Santiago de Campostela I will be as enlightened as you.
All jokes aside.. If the Spanish government says tourists are welcome, if there are no restrictions crossing regional borders, if the hostels are opened again, the restaurants and bars as well you still think one should wait and not go because of ethical reasons? One should just stay at home and donate money? Until when?

When a country has reached 70% demonstrated immunity... not vaccinated, immune. Current data just dont know... we’ve had them in the wild for too short a time period. Pfizer is encouraging, but we will know for sure by the end of 2021 if suggestive data are solid. 2022 looks like more solid ground, and I do not think that is so very very long to wait.
I don’t think it is saintly to avoid risking other people’s lives for the sake of my own desires.
 

Faye Walker

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
CF 2014, CF 2018, CP 2019 from Coimbra
Hear hear! Vaccinated or negative Covid-test 72 hours before arrival. Can’t see what would be unethical or selfish about that.
Vaccinated in January , travelling in September... strong chance the vaccine is no longer effective. Wait for the long-term information before hitting the ground. By definition we do not have the long-term data yet. Negative Covid tests notoriously unable to catch all infections and we can accept that in some domestic situations (medicinal settings, schools, congregated housing) in order to keep some kind of function.
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
There's a grey area between "I can go" and "I'm welcome" or "It's a good idea to go". Witness this Easter weekend and the German tourists on Mallorca and the mostly young French tourists in Madrid. They could fly to Spain, no problem, and fly back home again, no problem, but they weren't particularly welcome by everyone and many in their home country didn't think that it was a brilliant idea to travel there right now and travel back right now.
 

Mr. Walker

Member
There's a grey area between "I can go" and "I'm welcome" or "It's a good idea to go". Witness this Easter weekend and the German tourists on Mallorca and the mostly young French tourists in Madrid. They could fly to Spain, no problem, and fly back home again, no problem, but they weren't particularly welcome by everyone and many in their home country didn't think that it was a brilliant idea to travel there right now and travel back right now.
I don’t think it is fair to compare walking the camino with being packed like sardines in Mallorca or Madrid, but I get your point.
 
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CalgaryLynn

Active Member
Past OR future Camino
2021
I am merely seeking information. Every jurisdiction makes its own determination on vaccination order of priority. Here in British Columbia for example all health care workers, teachers, First Nation people, and isolated communities are being vaccinated ahead of the age cohort order.
I am booked and ready to go in the fall of 2021. If there is concern with hostels, perhaps staying in hotels might be a safer idea. Both Portugal and Spain have a "Clean&Safe" seal of approval on many of their hotels which means they are going beyond to keep a safe environment for their patrons. I would be very concerned about staying in a bunk room situation this year especially.
 

Marc S.

Active Member
Past OR future Camino
Since 2012: CF, CdN, CP, Salvador, Aragones, Via Regia, Elisabethpfad, Jakobsweg NRW, Jakibspaad.
FWIW, the newest estimate (don't know how reliable the source is but I personally regard it as fairly reliable) says that Spain is now projected to have 57 % of the population vaccinated by the end of June 2021.

According to today's report, Spain (according to the prime minister) plans to vaccinate 53% of the population by the end of July. (


Not posting this for wanting to be smart (and maybe off-topic) but I think it shows how that any projected vaccination schedules may be fluid (and possibly will remain to be so in the coming months), which may be good to realize for anyone making plans.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
Not posting this for wanting to be smart (and maybe off-topic) but I think it shows how that any projected vaccination schedules may be fluid (and possibly will remain to be so in the coming months), which may be good to realize for anyone making plans.
I couldn't agree more and I appreciate you posting this. I actually checked to see whether I misquoted. I didn't but that's beside the point.

There is a clear tendency to rush to Spain and walk as soon as it is legally possible, most likely in May. It can't be stopped. Just as last year some could not be stopped from travelling to Spain to walk or continuing to walk in February/March when it was already clear to many that this was not a brilliant idea and before finally a massive stop was put to it around the middle of March 2020 by the measures that governments and public health authorities took to restrict everybody's mobility because people did not listen to appeals to voluntary restrictions, in particularly voluntary restrictions on travelling and on interacting with many other people from many different areas.
 

Mr. Walker

Member
I couldn't agree more and I appreciate you posting this. I actually checked to see whether I misquoted. I didn't but that's beside the point.

There is a clear tendency to rush to Spain and walk as soon as it is legally possible, most likely in May. It can't be stopped. Just as last year some could not be stopped from travelling to Spain to walk or continuing to walk in February/March when it was already clear to many that this was not a brilliant idea and before finally a massive stop was put to it around the middle of March 2020 by the measures that governments and public health authorities took to restrict everybody's mobility because people did not listen to appeals to voluntary restrictions, in particularly voluntary restrictions on travelling and on interacting with many other people from many different areas.
You hit the nail on the head with those last lines.
Everyones camino is different, we all walk it for different purposes and in different manners.
Some actually walk it to be alone, to NOT interact with other people. Some walk it to meet many people from different nationalites, to eat and drink wine together at the hostels in the evening.
For those who truly enjoy the social part of the camino it might be a good idea to wait even longer than when the law says it is OK to go.
But for us who really don’t want to interact...
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
But for us who really don’t want to interact...
Oh come on, those of us who don't want to interact have the whole wide world to go on pilgrimage. But no, it has to be a camino to Santiago. Sorry but ... anyway, this thread is about the hospitaleros and not about the walkers. And it's about the hospitaleros from Spain and, I guess, about the volunteers from all over Europe and the world who want to travel to Spain and spend two weeks in an albergue.

Let us admit once in a while that many people like to travel to Spain and spend their free time in Spain for many reasons and in many different ways and all of these many reasons of all of these many people wanting to travel to Spain are equally valid.
 
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Mr. Walker

Member
Oh come on, those of us who don't want to interact have the whole wide world to go on pilgrimage. But no, it has to be a camino to Santiago. Sorry but ... anyway, this thread is about the hospitaleros and not about the walkers. And it's about the hospitaleros from Spain and, I guess, about the volunteers from all over Europe and the world who want to travel to Spain and spend two weeks in an albergue.
Are you disqualifying me? Am I not welcome on the camino if I don’t want to be part of a ”camino family” and if I choose to spend the evenings alone?
 

Kathar1na

Member
Past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
Are you disqualifying me? Am I not welcome on the camino if I don’t want to be part of a ”camino family” and if I choose to spend the evenings alone?
No. I am saying in general, and not to you specifically: Travel if you legally can and feel the urge. Justify it to yourself if you need to justify it to yourself. Don't expect others to agree vocally. And that applies to those who want to lie on the beach as well as to those who want to walk 500 miles.
 

CalgaryLynn

Active Member
Past OR future Camino
2021
No. I am saying in general, and not to you specifically: Travel if you legally can and feel the urge. Justify it to yourself if you need to justify it to yourself. Don't expect others to agree vocally. And that applies to those who want to lie on the beach as well as to those who want to walk 500 miles.
This is starting to sound very judgemental. I am sure most of us are mature adults that can make a decision as to what is safest for ourselves and others. If you don't feel it is right to go, don't go but don't make judgements on other people. The Camino is free to all of us.
 
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Faye Walker

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
CF 2014, CF 2018, CP 2019 from Coimbra
This is starting to sound very judgemental. I am sure most of us are mature adults that can make a decision as to what is safest for ourselves and others. If you don't feel it is right to go, don't go but don't make judgements on other people. The Camino is free to all of us.
You may find it judgemental but it is a logical fallacy, a non-sequtor, to assert that being able to judge for oneself is therefore an ability (and right)to decide for others. Philosophically speaking, when we decide for ourselves, we do decide for others, but as we have been advised over and over and over that vaccines do not necessarily prevent spreading infection, I do not think we have the right to decide for others that they should die for us. There are other ways, if we really care about their economic well-being to deliver that.
if by the end of 2021 we can see that the vaccines have actually reached enough of Spain, that they have served enough of the poorly paid and overworked airport employees (among the target p populations dying in North America because they hav eno choice but to deal with tarmac safety, border crossings, warehousing at airports, cargo handling etc etc).
We know that all over the planet politicians are making economic decisions that are putting some people’s lives on the line, generally far more than any pilgrim would be sacrificed (our free time being one great privilege those dying do not have in their everyday lives).
We will be so much clearer about the South African and Brazilian variants by the late summer; perhaps by then all points along an intended way will be protected With fully vaccinated status.
Right now it is too early to know.
But as was said upthread... go and do wha though think you are entitled to do. If the judgement of strangers is too harsh, maybe that is actually one’s conscience calling.
I am hoping and planning to move to Spain for a trial period in 2022, and I am an EU Citizen as well as a Canadian... but if the epidemiological data remain as shaky then as they will be for at least another half year, I will not make the move.
 
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