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Visigothic/Pre-Romanesque architecture for beginners

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we have not talked about the Cámara Santa in this thread yet, and we should because it's amazing
Thank you for posting this photo, @jungleboy ! It really gives a sense of the place.
(I love that window, BTW, simple beauty.)

This ermita (below) would certainly qualify timing-wise as generically Pre-Romanesque. But I can't find any details about it. Anyone know it?
I wonder if the Ermita of San Bartolomeo in Caborredondo in Cantabria (on the del Norte) would qualify? It is a 9th century rectangular church in the middle of the pueblo. I do not know if it be still in use, even at fiestas.
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And...this topic is an endlessly opening nested box...looking around I found this page on the site that I referred to in my list and that @Rebekah Scott told us about a while ago. It's a huge site, so there's lots to find, and lots one could easly miss:
What caught my eye were these because presumably they look to be within striking distance of caminos:
On the Lebaniego:
SANTA MARÍA DE LEBEÑA
Cillorigo de Liébana
Built during the first third of the 10th century, possibly by Mozarabic monks, it is a church with a Greek cross shaped plan, with the entrance on the southern side, three apses and two compartments at each side of the main nave, for what it looks like a basilical plan. The inside is highly original, completely vaulted with pillars with attached columns and capitals of great quality. It is one of the most important works in Mozarabic art.

Near the Olvidado? A Mozarabic gem— look at this gorgeous arch!:

SAN ROMÁN DE MOROSO

Bostronizo
This small hermitage, of which there are not any documentary references until 1119 and that was until recently in dilapidated conditions, is located near Bostronizo. Built in very regular stone bond, it consists of a single nave and an apse, separated by a beautiful very pronounced horseshoe arch.The lobe modillions of the roof, heavily decorated, are also very interesting.
About the latter, also:
 
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Peaceable Projects Inc.
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2002, Toulouse/Aragon 2005, Cami S Jaume/Aragon 2007/9, Mont Saint Michel/Norte/Vadiniense 2011, Norte/Primitivo 2013, Norte/Primitivo 2014. Norte 2015, Cami S Jaume/Castellano-Aragonese 2016
@VNwalking I don'T have any more details than the vague date which I found on the provincial tourism site. Often Spanish wiki is helpful, but not this time. I think that there was very little on the information board when I passed through the pueblo as my normal practice is to take a shot of the board for future reference and I did not do so-- but somebody passing by may be able to improve upon my recollection.
 
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Capping off this thread by posting a link to a wonderful interactive map that @mspath has very kindly constructed. Once it's open, you can click on any pointer to see the name of the church.
As an architectural historian during 5 decades in Canada, NYC, and Paris, @mspath always enjoyed discovering and comparing buildings.

And she offered us this perfect quote:
"We unite all things by perceiving the law which pervades them; by perceiving the superficial differences and the profound resemblances."
Ralph Waldo Emerson
 

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gsilver

New Member
Another interesting example is San Pedro De Nave which is on the Camino Portugues de la Via de la Plata outside El Campillo. It is just under 30km walk from Zamora

I can't find my photos of the place but here is the Wikipedia page

San Pedro de la Nave - Wikipedia
Have lots of pictures of San Pedro de la Nave taken 2014 on my way from Zamora to Braganca. An amazing building with an amazing story.
 

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jungleboy

Spirit of the Camino (Nick)
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A few in the past; more in the future!
Capping off this thread by posting a link to a wonderful interactive map that @mspath has very kindly constructed. Once it's open, you can click on any pointer to see the name of the church.
It seems you need to request access. I've done so, so hopefully I'll be able to see the map soon!
 

Kathar1na

Member
Past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
Have lots of pictures of San Pedro de la Nave taken 2014 on my way from Zamora to Braganca.
I absolutely love the eagle/angel/Siren figure in the first photo.

But it this really from San Pedro de la Nave? The style looks so different, ie full-blown Romanesque and not Visigothic like all the other sculptures in San Pedro, and I couldn't detect it in any of the photos that turned up in a quick Google Images search for San Pedro. Just curious.
 
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gsilver

New Member
I absolutely love the eagle/angel/Siren figure in the first photo.

But it this really from San Pedro de la Nave? The style looks so different, ie full-blown Romanesque and not Visigothic like all the other sculptures in San Pedro, and I couldn't detect it in any of the photos that turned up in a quick Google Images search for San Pedro. Just curious.
You are a sleuth! You are right - visited Santiago de los Caballeros and San Pedro de la Nave the same day. Here are all the photos I took of the later one.
 
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peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
My inbox had an article about San Juan de Baños, another Visigothic church. Near Palencia, but not on any camino.


Info about hours, visits here.

The linked article describes it as the oldest standing church in Spain.

Though I am not a map whiz, it looks to me like the two camino points that are closest are Frómista on the Francés (44 km on a superhighway, 46 km walking on secondary roads) and
Valladolid on/close to the Madrid (41 km).
 
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Frances Portuguese Finisterre Muxia Ingles Mozarabe VldP Sanabres Serrana Salvador Norte Espiritual
My inbox had an article about San Juan de Baños, another Visigothic church. Near Palencia, but not on any camino.


Info about hours, visits here.

The linked article describes it as the oldest standing church in Spain.

Though I am not a map whiz, it looks to me like the two camino points that are closest are Frómista on the Francés (44 km on a superhighway, 46 km walking on secondary roads) and
Valladolid on/close to the Madrid (41 km).
Firstly, thank you for all that you do for us all
And I had this,, from somewhere,, A Camino starting from Palencia,, not to Santiago though, but easy to continue onto the Norte!! I have the full pdf guide in spanish on file!
 

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Peaceable Projects Inc.
Peaceable Projects Inc. is a U.S.-based non-profit group that brings the vast resources of the wide world together with the ongoing needs of the people who live, work, and travel on the Camino de Santiago pilgrim trail network in Spain.
Original artwork based on your pilgrimage or other travel photos.

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
A Camino starting from Palencia,, not to Santiago though, but easy to continue onto the Norte!!

This is the Camino Lebañiego-Castellano, which heads north from Palencia to the monastery at Santo Toribio. There are a few threads on this route, easy to find by searching “lebañiego castellano.” All the threads dealing with this route are for the moment in the Vadiniense section, just because it also goes from thee monastery to th Francés at Mansilla de las Mulas.

A few forum members have walked it. It intersects with the Olvidado in Cervera de Pisuerga, which is where I saw signs and got some information.

If there’s enough interest, we could make a separate sub-forum. And @Martyduc, if you can post the pdf file that would be great. There is a broken link in one of the threads that was supposed to take us to the guide on Palencia’s official website, and I can‘t find it anywhere else now.
 
Past OR future Camino
Frances Portuguese Finisterre Muxia Ingles Mozarabe VldP Sanabres Serrana Salvador Norte Espiritual
This is the Camino Lebañiego-Castellano, which heads north from Palencia to the monastery at Santo Toribio. There are a few threads on this route, easy to find by searching “lebañiego castellano.” All the threads dealing with this route are for the moment in the Vadiniense section, just because it also goes from thee monastery to th Francés at Mansilla de las Mulas.

A few forum members have walked it. It intersects with the Olvidado in Cervera de Pisuerga, which is where I saw signs and got some information.

If there’s enough interest, we could make a separate sub-forum. And @Martyduc, if you can post the pdf file that would be great. There is a broken link in one of the threads that was supposed to take us to the guide on Palencia’s official website, and I can‘t find it anywhere else now.
This is the Camino Lebañiego-Castellano, which heads north from Palencia to the monastery at Santo Toribio. There are a few threads on this route, easy to find by searching “lebañiego castellano.” All the threads dealing with this route are for the moment in the Vadiniense section, just because it also goes from thee monastery to th Francés at Mansilla de las Mulas.

A few forum members have walked it. It intersects with the Olvidado in Cervera de Pisuerga, which is where I saw signs and got some information.

If there’s enough interest, we could make a separate sub-forum. And @Martyduc, if you can post the pdf file that would be great. There is a broken link in one of the threads that was supposed to take us to the guide on Palencia’s official website, and I can‘t find it anywhere else now.
This is the Camino Lebañiego-Castellano, which heads north from Palencia to the monastery at Santo Toribio. There are a few threads on this route, easy to find by searching “lebañiego castellano.” All the threads dealing with this route are for the moment in the Vadiniense section, just because it also goes from thee monastery to th Francés at Mansilla de las Mulas.

A few forum members have walked it. It intersects with the Olvidado in Cervera de Pisuerga, which is where I saw signs and got some information.

If there’s enough interest, we could make a separate sub-forum. And @Martyduc, if you can post the pdf file that would be great. There is a broken link in one of the threads that was supposed to take us to the guide on Palencia’s official website, and I can‘t find it anywhere else now.
Hi,, I have tried here to post that pdf,, but it keeps saying the file is too large,, so I don't know how!! Any suggestions?
 

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
Hi,, I have tried here to post that pdf,, but it keeps saying the file is too large,, so I don't know how!! Any suggestions?
Hum. Can you try posting it in the resources? I think there is a section for guides in print, and I would put it in the Vadiniense subforum. If that doesn’t work, I can ask Ivar. Thank you so much, that would be great.
 
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Frances Portuguese Finisterre Muxia Ingles Mozarabe VldP Sanabres Serrana Salvador Norte Espiritual
Hum. Can you try posting it in the resources? I think there is a section for guides in print, and I would put it in the Vadiniense subforum. If that doesn’t work, I can ask Ivar. Thank you so much, that would be great.
Hi,, think I have got it into Resources in the Vadinense subforum!! I hope so!
 
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David Tallan

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
1989
I have read that there was a prohibition on building or extending churches. Furthermore, in culture (diet, dress, language etc.), I read that the Christians adopted the culture of the islamic rulers of the territory (hence the modern term "Mozarabe"- arabized) ... so perhaps there isn't a Mozarabic architecture to discover? Happy for someone to correct me on this speculation.
FWIW, today in another thread I posted a couple of photos of San Miguel de la Escalada just off the Camino near Mansilla de las Mulas. Gitlitz and Davidson consider it Mozarabic architecture. So does my Michelin Green Guide for Spain. It was built by monks who had been expelled from Cordoba. So, although it was built in Christian Spain, the architects were Christians from Islamic Iberia. It seems somewhat different from the Mudejar churches not far away in Sahagun.
 
D

Deleted member 73526

Guest
FWIW, today in another thread I posted a couple of photos of San Miguel de la Escalada just off the Camino near Mansilla de las Mulas. Gitlitz and Davidson consider it Mozarabic architecture. So does my Michelin Green Guide for Spain. It was built by monks who had been expelled from Cordoba. So, although it was built in Christian Spain, the architects were Christians from Islamic Iberia. It seems somewhat different from the Mudejar churches not far away in Sahagun.
Yes - "Mozarabic" is also used to describe the church in Tabara, which was built by Christians who emigrated (fled, really) from the muslim controlled south. In my post, I should have said "Perhaps there aren't churches built by mozarabes in the muslim areas," or something.
 
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Us:Camino Frances, 2015 Me:Catalan/Aragonese, 2019
It has now been almost a year since the last post but this thread has not been forgotten. I've been watching a couple of episodes on YouTube of Timeline's series "An Age of Light", a different take on what is called the Dark Ages. In the episode entitled "Why Are the Barbarians so Misunderstood?" the presentation ends with the Visigoths in Spain, specifically with a church already mentioned in this thread and that Wikipedia titles as Church of San Juan Bautista, Baños de Cerrato. See also post #111 above by @peregrina2000.

Here is the section of the YouTube video that starts 52 minutes, 30 seconds in. Clicking the arrow gets you an embedded view, clicking the video's title should bring to to YouTube where you can use all its features like casting to a TV.
 
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peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
Thanks so much for the link, @Rick. I only watched the part about Spain but will take a look at the rest later. I was happy to have had a mystery cleared up for me. I had always wondered how those visigothic crowns with the jewels dangling fit comfortably on a royal’s head. The video explained that they were not worn, but rather hung in churches above the altar. The Museo Arqueólogico in Madrid has a gob-smacking display of some of these beauties. (And btw, if you haven’t been to this museum since its astonishing renovation/remodeling, do not miss it the next time you are in Madrid. It is an absolutely amazing place for the Roman, Visigothic and Moorish eras ).

A7AD61E7-EFF7-4364-A504-59C73B1F918F.jpeg
 
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Next up 2022?
The Museo Arqueólogico in Madrid has a gob-smacking display of some of these beauties.
😲😲😲
Can you imagine how these would catch the light? Wow.

Thanks, Rick! Great link.
Is anyone's looking for a place to stay after a camino in this general area, I stumbled on this very nice webpage:
The map they made (embedded in that page) is a good resource.

Lots of history in easy range of a car, and a place (perhaps) to bring a non-walking spouse who is nevertheless interested in history.
 
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dick bird

Veteran Member
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Plata, Ingles, Madrid, Norte, Primitivo, Invierno, Aragones, Olvidado, Chemin D'Arles
I am currently reading an excellent book I discovered lurking on the shelves of our local library 'Art of the Dark Ages', Backes and Dölling, published Abrams, New York, 1969. The cover blurb states "No period in history has been so misnamed ........ these five centuries gave birth to some of the most brilliant and original art of all time".

I suspect our view of the post-classical period in European history is coloured by two things: firstly the Renaissance fashion for Greek and Roman architecture, but secondly, casting the Roman empire as a noble enterprise that collapsed because it became weak and decadent somehow legitimised the colonial empires of nations such as Britain and France.

Sorry, not very camino related, except that the camino is a process of discovery and enlightenment, and the practice of pilgrimage grew out of a period of great creation and innovation, physical evidence of which can often be seen, in fact, on any of the camino routes if you know it is there. So thanks to all for pointing them out.
 
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Sorry, not very camino related
Actually, very Camino-related, because how we perceive what we encounter there is informed by what we think we know - based on a patchy education about this whole time period.

I came to the Camino thinking Romanesque and pre-Romanesque forms were nascent and imperfect - on an undeniable trajectory of 'improvement,' to becoming better and more sophistcated. Flying buttresses! Soaring Gothic arches and rose windows! That was where it was at, as far as I knew.

But experiential reality on the Camino has changed my view entirely. All those ill-informed ideas can't hold up in the face of places like Sta Maria de Lara or Diamondi - or for that matter the interior of the Cathedral in Santiago, and the portals graced by Maestro Mateo's masterpiece carvings.

Not to dismiss later forms, but not to denegrate the earlier ones as being somehow 'less than,' unripe and immature.
 
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