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Walkers, Pilgrims, refugees

0 Euro Camino Bank Note

Hurry Krishna

Indian on the Way
Camino(s) past & future
2009 (from Sarria), 2014 from St Jean Pied de Port, 2016 from Porto, 2018 from Le Puy to Santiago.

Robo

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
CF SJPdP to SdC
(May 2015)
CF Sarria to SdC
(May 2016)
CF SJPDP-SdC
(Apr/May 2018)
VdlP (2020)
Did you want comments on the writing, the content, the message or something else?
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
Santiago and beyond (own way - voie de Tours - camino francés - Biskaya - Manche)
Any of the above 😊
I enjoyed reading your comments. I'm not sure that I read what you wrote or tried to tell ☺ but it made me think about whether or when walking is a valued pleasure or leisure activity, an absolute necessity or an activity that is regarded as of no great value and a bit "beneath oneself".

The following comment may sound callous but that is not my intention. Camino walkers sometimes draw parallels between the distance they walk and the distance that refugees and economic migrants cover who we see on our TV screens. You mentioned in particular "migrants from war-ravaged Middle East crossing the Balkans on foot". We read and hear about the so-called caravans in America. It made me curious just on the practical level so to speak. It is my understanding, certainly as far as 2015 in Europe is concerned and also one of the more recent events in America, that many cover large distances not on foot but in motorised transport of various kinds while in particular the border crossings are on foot. I've never spoken to someone who has fled from war or from very dire living conditions over large distances in recent times but I knew a number of people (most of them are no longer alive now) who did so quite a while ago in Europe, fleeing from various countries to various other countries. They tried to get to the nearest place that was safe for them, often a neighbouring country, and this is also true for the majority of war refugees in the Middle East today but often overlooked. I hope these comments are ok, I'm trying to avoid anything that may regarded as political or personal.

I myself have now covered a continuous distance of some 2000 km though not in one go. Voluntarily. This is something that intrigues me: how far you can actually get on foot in just 3 months. I wasn't thinking refugees. I was thinking Hannibal, Roman legionnaires, and a period in European history called Völkerwanderung / invasions barbares / período de las grandes migraciones / migration period that brought the Visigoths to Spain for example.

How's that for starters? ;)
 

Hurry Krishna

Indian on the Way
Camino(s) past & future
2009 (from Sarria), 2014 from St Jean Pied de Port, 2016 from Porto, 2018 from Le Puy to Santiago.
I enjoyed reading your comments. I'm not sure that I read what you wrote or tried to tell ☺ but it made me think about whether or when walking is a valued pleasure or leisure activity, an absolute necessity or an activity that is regarded as of no great value and a bit "beneath oneself".

The following comment may sound callous but that is not my intention. Camino walkers sometimes draw parallels between the distance they walk and the distance that refugees and economic migrants cover who we see on our TV screens. You mentioned in particular "migrants from war-ravaged Middle East crossing the Balkans on foot". We read and hear about the so-called caravans in America. It made me curious just on the practical level so to speak. It is my understanding, certainly as far as 2015 in Europe is concerned and also one of the more recent events in America, that many cover large distances not on foot but in motorised transport of various kinds while in particular the border crossings are on foot. I've never spoken to someone who has fled from war or from very dire living conditions over large distances in recent times but I knew a number of people (most of them are no longer alive now) who did so quite a while ago in Europe, fleeing from various countries to various other countries. They tried to get to the nearest place that was safe for them, often a neighbouring country, and this is also true for the majority of war refugees in the Middle East today but often overlooked. I hope these comments are ok, I'm trying to avoid anything that may regarded as political or personal.

I myself have now covered a continuous distance of some 2000 km though not in one go. Voluntarily. This is something that intrigues me: how far you can actually get on foot in just 3 months. I wasn't thinking refugees. I was thinking Hannibal, Roman legionnaires, and a period in European history called Völkerwanderung / invasions barbares / período de las grandes migraciones / migration period that brought the Visigoths to Spain for example.

How's that for starters? ;)
Thanks. The ronhingas walked. Mostly. Most of the way. Middle Eastern refugees came however they could. Stats suggest several thousand (10s, not hundreds) walked very substantial distance. I must think more carefully of the armies. Thank you 🙏🏽
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
Santiago and beyond (own way - voie de Tours - camino francés - Biskaya - Manche)
Middle Eastern refugees came however they could. Stats suggest several thousand (10s, not hundreds) walked very substantial distance.
I was simply trying to correct the visual image that one may have of the physical movement of refugees and migrants coming into Europe, including via the Balkan states. I remember that some time ago someone (from the US perhaps?) was concerned that he may be mistaken for a migrant/asylum seeker on a pilgrim path in France. This is simply not a reality. There are several major revived pilgrimage paths through the Balkans, leading from Central Europe to Turkey and beyond. Not many pilgrims walk them in this direction but I wonder whether any of them has encountered migrants walking in the other direction?

As I said, it's just about our visual image of the mode of travel. Not travelling on foot for thousands of miles but mainly by bus, train, taxis, lorries etc, whether for free or by paying exorbitant sums to those exploiting their dire situation and exhausting all their funds, doesn't diminish their plight.
 

C clearly

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (2012, 2014, 2015, 2016). Seville-Astorga (Mar 2017). Mozarabe (Apr-May 2018)
I am having trouble explaining why, but I think your writing is brilliant. (And that is not something I say often!) You communicate images and ideas in a way that challenges and provokes thought, but is also a pleasure to read.

My husband and I recently spent 3 days walking in Delhi - just walking, randomly here, there, everywhere. We scarcely saw another tourist, and didn't notice anyone else who seemed to be "out for a walk," but there were masses of people going about their daily business, on foot or by motorcycle, mototaxi, bicycle, cart, or car. It was fascinating, but also made us realize the privilege we have of being able to walk because we want to.
 

RJM

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
A few times
Having worked in third world countries and seen the migrants, refugees there and having worked in direct contact with migrants crossing a border and everything that comes with it (including death) and having also walked the Camino several times I can say without hesitation that there are no parallels between a modern day pilgrim on the Camino and an actual migrant/refugee traveling on foot or by any other means. None.
 

Hurry Krishna

Indian on the Way
Camino(s) past & future
2009 (from Sarria), 2014 from St Jean Pied de Port, 2016 from Porto, 2018 from Le Puy to Santiago.
I am having trouble explaining why, but I think your writing is brilliant. (And that is not something I say often!) You communicate images and ideas in a way that challenges and provokes thought, but is also a pleasure to read.

My husband and I recently spent 3 days walking in Delhi - just walking, randomly here, there, everywhere. We scarcely saw another tourist, and didn't notice anyone else who seemed to be "out for a walk," but there were masses of people going about their daily business, on foot or by motorcycle, mototaxi, bicycle, cart, or car. It was fascinating, but also made us realize the privilege we have of being able to walk because we want to.
🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽 thank you for reading so generously!
 

Hurry Krishna

Indian on the Way
Camino(s) past & future
2009 (from Sarria), 2014 from St Jean Pied de Port, 2016 from Porto, 2018 from Le Puy to Santiago.
Having worked in third world countries and seen the migrants, refugees there and having worked in direct contact with migrants crossing a border and everything that comes with it (including death) and having also walked the Camino several times I can say without hesitation that there are no parallels between a modern day pilgrim on the Camino and an actual migrant/refugee traveling on foot or by any other means. None.
Of course, there aren’t! The point is that the differences are striking :)
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
Santiago and beyond (own way - voie de Tours - camino francés - Biskaya - Manche)
We are all refugees, from somewhere, or, something.
I don't regard myself as a refugee as I never had been forced to leave my country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster, or however one wants to define refugees, and although I've lived and worked for a large part of my life in a country other than my own, I didn't even regard myself - and many of those around me in a similar situation - as migrants but as fairly privileged expatriates.

The current refugees/migrants issue is a very serious current issue here in Europe and clarity of words and thoughts can only be beneficial in the search to find solutions.
 
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Camino(s) past & future
Lourdes/Burgos/SdeC 77; Frances 12,15,17; Finisterre 17; Lourdes/Aragones 18; Meseta 19.
The current refugees/migrants issue is a very serious current issue here in Europe and clarity of words and thoughts can only be beneficial in the search to find solutions.
Deadly serious in North America, too. Touchy, touchy, touchy subject....
 
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Hurry Krishna

Indian on the Way
Camino(s) past & future
2009 (from Sarria), 2014 from St Jean Pied de Port, 2016 from Porto, 2018 from Le Puy to Santiago.
Careful everyone. Much more like this and Admin may curtail further posts. Starting to take on a political tone...maybe?
Shall I delete my post, so that it is truncated? Happy to. It was meant for thinking and discomfort. Not political activism :)
 

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/CF ('16)
Baztanés/CF ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/CF/Invierno ('19)
Goodness, @Hurry Krishna, please don't.
No-one's arguing here. And (it's my personal opinion) that we should all feel grateful that we have the gift of being able to walk for pleasure, and more than a little uncomfortable with the way the world is right now - not for political reasons, but because there is suffering and that's where compassion is born. The camino awakens us to a smaller version of what it is to share hardship - and the bigger pilgrimage of life asks a lot more...
Thank you for your beautiful words. I found them touching, disturbing, and profoundly thought provoking.
 

Hurry Krishna

Indian on the Way
Camino(s) past & future
2009 (from Sarria), 2014 from St Jean Pied de Port, 2016 from Porto, 2018 from Le Puy to Santiago.
Goodness, @Hurry Krishna, please don't.
No-one's arguing here. And (it's my personal opinion) that we should all feel grateful that we have the gift of being able to walk for pleasure, and more than a little uncomfortable with the way the world is right now - not for political reasons, but because there is suffering and that's where compassion is born. The camino awakens us to a smaller version of what it is to share hardship - and the bigger pilgrimage of life asks a lot more...
Thank you for your beautiful words. I found them touching, disturbing, and profoundly thought provoking.
Always gratifying to be read exactly in the spirit it was intended.🙏🏽
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
Santiago and beyond (own way - voie de Tours - camino francés - Biskaya - Manche)
Shall I delete my post, so that it is truncated? Happy to. It was meant for thinking and discomfort. Not political activism :)
You mentioned an earlier thread related to this topic that "got kind of heated" and probably closed. The fact that there are only some 20 messages in this thread, sometimes cautiously worded, show to me at least that posters are fully aware of the restrictions imposed by the forum rules. With the result that forum members say little or nothing at all. Is silence always golden? Not everything that glitters is gold. I hesitated before I commented on a message that was perhaps intended as a kind of "feel good" message or an attempt at expressing solidarity with the plight of today's refugees and migrants. I eventually felt I had to say something to correct the projected image.

With every message that one posts one takes the risk that someone else may pick a line or a word to pursue a personal agenda or inject controversy in an unacceptable way. Sometimes it's a risk worth taking. Imho.
 

Hurry Krishna

Indian on the Way
Camino(s) past & future
2009 (from Sarria), 2014 from St Jean Pied de Port, 2016 from Porto, 2018 from Le Puy to Santiago.
You mentioned an earlier thread related to this topic that "got kind of heated" and probably closed. The fact that there are only some 20 messages in this thread, sometimes cautiously worded, show to me at least that posters are fully aware of the restrictions imposed by the forum rules. With the result that forum members say little or nothing at all. Is silence always golden? Not everything that glitters is gold. I hesitated before I commented on a message that was perhaps intended as a kind of "feel good" message or an attempt at expressing solidarity with the plight of today's refugees and migrants. I eventually felt I had to say something to correct the projected image.

With every message that one posts one takes the risk that someone else may pick a line or a word to pursue a personal agenda or inject controversy in an unacceptable way. Sometimes it's a risk worth taking. Imho.
😊
 

MichelleElynHogan

Veteran Member
Shall I delete my post, so that it is truncated? Happy to. It was meant for thinking and discomfort. Not political activism :)
No need to be reactionary. My statement was not personally directed toward any one person but all who are here for this discussion. That is why I used the word, "everyone." I am with the group that wants the discussion to continue.
 

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