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COVID Walking Without Vaccine?

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LesBrass

Likes Walking
Year of past OR future Camino
yes...
I have a young friend who is interested in walking the Camino this summer but who has not yet received her vaccine. She lives in France and is French Resident but holds a UK passport.

If she has a negative test before leaving home will she be allowed to cross the land border into Spain? And will Albergues check her vaccine status whilst walking? She won't walk if she is not eligible and she hopes to have her vaccine soon

Thanks in advance
 
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Year of past OR future Camino
2012
@LesBrass some good questions. The answers to most of which is ?????

I'm not aware of any restrictions on pedestrians, with EU residence, crossing the land-border with Spain. I do not recall, though it is hard to keep up, any suggestions that Albergues are checking vaccination status. As you are no doubt aware the mooted "passports" are not yet in existence even though they are blethered about constantly.

Your young friend might like to come at this question from another angle: does she, while un-vaccinated, want to expose herself to potentially risky contact with a random group of strangers whose virus status will be unknown and unverified?
 

LTfit

Veteran Member
First of all, albergues do not ask if vaccinated (also not their place IMHO). It is assumed that if you got into the country you have abided by the rules governing at that time meaning have been vaccinated, have a negative PCR or antigen test.

My advice is to have your friend check with the French authorities to ask them what is required to enter Spain at said time. Conditions can change overnight - look at Lisbon and the Algarve!

And as @Tincatinker mentions, does your friend want to take the risk. We here in The Netherlands are experiencing the return of young adults who vacationed in Spain and Portugal bringing back with them the Delta variant.
 
Year of past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
If she has a negative test before leaving home will she be allowed to cross the land border into Spain?
The situation is getting more absurd by the day. If she were to walk this week, and assuming that she stayed in either Nouvelle-Aquitaine or Occitanie during the past couple of weeks, she will not need to be in possession of a negative test result. She doesn't need to fill in the SpTH/FCS form.

That's this week and at the time of writing. Spain publishes a list of what they regard as risk countries/risk zones every 7 days. They put it on their SpTH site. Nobody knows whether walkers are aware of this list or pay any attention to it or know what it means.

I've not seen that anyone currently walking reports that albergues in Spain request, or even expect, proof of anything, whether those who stay with them are vaccinated, unvaccinated and recently recovered.

No advice from me about whether one should travel to Spain and how to spend time there or what qualifies someone to travel to Spain other than complying with government rules of Spain. You knew that you would be getting such advice when you posted your question, I guess? 😐
 
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@LesBrass, just curious, how common is voluntary rapid antigen self-testing in France? If I understand correctly, these tests are available and cheap or free of charge to the insured? What I would perhaps do if I were in your friend's situation with incomplete vaccination program, is self-testing every few days, and even, if that is possible, take tests with me from home (but I don't know what I am talking about, I've never had a test in any shape or form anywhere).
 
Year of past OR future Camino
2012
@LesBrass thanks for this further information. My thoughts will be with your young friend as we make smoke and spill wine tonight. We will ask that she gets her vaccines soon and especially that our friend Santo Domingo will find a way to open the road for her.

And you are right, patience is only one of many lessons Camino can teach us.
 

LesBrass

Likes Walking
Year of past OR future Camino
yes...
@LesBrass, just curious, how common is voluntary rapid antigen self-testing in France? If I understand correctly, these tests are available and cheap or free of charge to the insured? What I would perhaps do if I were in your friend's situation with incomplete vaccination program, is self-testing every few days.
That's a good Idea! Testing is free to us and we get results within a few hours. I think students were testing often but I'm not sure. I'll ask as that's a great idea!

Alternatively she's thinking of walking only half of the route.. She will have had both vaccines by then... Which is what we've recommended. But the self tests are a good idea. She just of course wants to walk from France but perhaps walking from Burgos will be a better idea?
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Year of past OR future Camino
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
Kathar1na it is easily available. Had PCR myself on the way to Spain, but I understand that antigen results are very quick. It's not a self-test though, you need to go in and get it done.
 
Year of past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
I am thinking of what is called autotest in France. I know that the reliability is not great but it is better than nothing and as @LesBrass says, perhaps what is used in French schools anyway.

From what I understand, France is making an amazing effort with large-scale testing options.
 
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In the UK we can pick up RATs (Rapid Antigen Tests) for free from a variety of sources. They are self-tests and therefore not suitable for international travel but they do provide some assurance. I went to my first live music performance in 16 months on Friday. All very well behaved and very wonderful. Tested myself on Sunday and will test again tomorrow.
I have responsibilities to family, tribe and that bloke who delivers my wine to make sure I am not a threat to their safety.
 

LesBrass

Likes Walking
Year of past OR future Camino
yes...
I thought I'd managed to avoid them but I had to have an operation in May and so faced the test 2 days before. I think I got lucky because the chap was pretty fast and by the time I realised how bad it was it was over... having said that I really hope I don't have to have another one! :oops: 🤭 😂
 
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LTfit

Veteran Member
I've shied away from crossing national borders on our small continent out of sheer fear ... fear of that nasal swab.
It is really not bad. I've had 2 PCR tests this month (one before leaving for Spain and the second in Santiago before returning to The Netherlands) and don't know why people make such a big deal...although I must say that the nurse in Santiago certainly went a bit deeper with the swab!
 

alhartman

2005-2017 Delightful 346 days in Spain and France.
Year of past OR future Camino
2017
I will take the risk and point out that there is a huge difference between 'behavior following the rules and 'behavior exhibiting low risk to self' and others. All the surges around the world seem to have come from people 'following the rules' (as the rules became less restrictive and based on government policy and wishes and less on science).
Everybody's risk profile is different, but IMO a memorial camino is not worth the risk of covid or being a long hauler. That risk drops hugely with a vaccination.. Best if friend gets vaccinated first then off to a camino walk-- which will not be 'normal'. And the camino will still be there next year.
I think all of us hoping for a camino need to be very careful about our 'expectations'--and our desire to 'do it now'.
And the 'rules' will be very fluid and changeable--so even 'following the rules' can become very difficult and unpredictable.
 

JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Year of past OR future Camino
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Hi. I am currently in Irun and just walked over to France this evening and back and there were no checks on pedestrians.
There rarely are -- my guess is that the vast majority are foot crossings by locals who are exempt from any test requirements, so it's likely to be poor use of Police resources versus checking private vehicles and trains.
 
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Hi. I am currently in Irun and just walked over to France this evening and back and there were no checks on pedestrians.
I've said it several times and I will happily say it one more time 😇: the fact there there are no controls at a national border crossing doesn't mean that you don't have to comply with the rules about crossing that national border on the European continent.

I've done a bit of weeding in the meantime which is always good for thinking and I've developed some radical thoughts: if there's one group who ought be allowed to go travelling and walking this summer it's our 18-20 year olds in Spain and in neighbouring countries, many if not most of whom are responsible young adults. They've done a lot of waiting and of being confined to their home during the past 16 months. And not us middle-aged to senior globetrotters on our second or third or more camino.
 

LesBrass

Likes Walking
Year of past OR future Camino
yes...
I've said it several times and I will happily say it one more time 😇: the fact there there are no controls at a national border crossing doesn't mean that you don't have to comply with the rules about crossing that national border on the European continent.

I've done a bit of weeding in the meantime which is always good for thinking and I've developed some radical thoughts: if there's one group who ought be allowed to go travelling and walking this summer it's our 18-20 year olds in Spain and in neighbouring countries, many if not most of whom are responsible young adults. They've done a lot of waiting and of being confined to their home during the past 16 months. And not us middle-aged to senior globetrotters on our second or third or more camino.

Thank you - I do feel for our young adults. Our youngest son is home for the holidays. He's been at Uni in the UK for the last 3 years and the first half he loved but the second half has been spent, for the most part, in a bedroom in a shared house, working towards his degree with powerpoint presentations as his prof. He knows he passed but is awaiting the final result..

I can tell you he is (and us) very very happy to be home. It was a bit fraught getting him on a flight from the UK at the start of June, he was tested twice before getting on the plane... 7 days in isolation here... day 8 another test... day 9 his first vaccine... day 11 he got his French Residency accepted. He has his second vaccine on 9 July and he plans to go visiting a few friends (in France) after that.

Then... we have to try and get him back to continue his study in September... sadly I can't quarantine for 14 days so I have to stay in France but my husband has the task of driving him back!

I know it's hard for everyone and I know that our problems are really just superficial compared to the real struggles that folks are facing... but nonetheless it's been tough on his age group.
 

OTH86

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
2017
@LesBrass, if your friend has limited time, and wants to honor her mother now, perhaps a shorter Camino from Sarria or some other 100 km point, would work. Walking for a shorter period of time, possibly only in one province would also work. Obviously the border question is still there, but it could be an option.
At a later date, when things are a bit clearer, and she has more time, she can walk a longer Camino to honor her mother again…
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Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
Frances (2015); Aragones-Frances (2016); VdlP-Sanabres (2017); Madrid-Frances-Invierno (2019)Levante
I have responsibilities to family, tribe and that bloke who delivers my wine to make sure I am not a threat to their safety.
This is an interesting issue which has not been discussed much on this forum. I have been double vaccinated with Pfizer. The welcome that I am now being offered from various countries, especially Spain, has taken my mind away from the important issue of being fully vaccinated and still able to contract and to pass on the virus to the unvaccinated or to others who, like myself, have been vaccinated but still have some vulnerability to infection. I have just been accepted as a hospitalera in one of the larger, and busier, donativo albergues on the Frances. I must see about getting a packet of the "at home, do it yourself" covid tests, to test myself at recommended intervals. I have no desire to be a camino "typhoid Mary." A few years ago, Calgary had a case of a woman working in a fast food restaurant who was passing on a serious infectious disease to customers, having no symptoms and no awareness that she was a carrier. Not me, please God!
 
Year of past OR future Camino
2019
She won't walk if she is not eligible and she hopes to have her vaccine soon
it's been tough on his age group.
This kind of restraint in the face of challenge gives me hope for the world. It sounds like no problem, but she should keep an eye out for frequent changes in what is allowed and what not.

Not me, please God
Thank you, @Albertagirl . For your service and your concern. I wish everyone in the world were as responsible - we'd be closer to being done with this by now.
 
Year of past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
@LesBrass, I can no longer see the timeframe of your young friend and what you said about her motive.

She's a resident of France which is what matters; passports usually don't matter for Covid-19 related travel restrictions. As far as I remember whenever France had very strict rules for incoming travellers in place, French nationals and holders of French residents cards were allowed to return. Also, and I think you and your sister (?) will remember this, transit travel on land to return to the place of residence was always allowed. So no potential issues for returning.

Anyway, it's all relatively short distances and on land, and I doubt that there will be severe restrictions during the summer months for travel within the EU.

My main concern would be the heat during July and August, actually. How would first and second jab (if not single-dose Janssen) fit together with a Camino from SJPP?

I see that both Spain and France continue to make good progress with their vaccination campaigns: 60% of the adult population had at least one jab in both countries, according to the ECDC of today.
 

smj6

Siempre hay que ver el positivo
Year of past OR future Camino
Oct/Nov 2016 (Via Podensis/ Frances)
Oct 2018 (Via Francigena stage)
I am thinking of what is called autotest in France. I know that the reliability is not great but it is better than nothing and as @LesBrass says, perhaps what is used in French schools anyway.

From what I understand, France is making an amazing effort with large-scale testing options.
I think you’ll find that most countries don’t accept the self test.
 
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smj6

Siempre hay que ver el positivo
Year of past OR future Camino
Oct/Nov 2016 (Via Podensis/ Frances)
Oct 2018 (Via Francigena stage)
As we all know, the situation is very fluid throughout the world; what is feasible today might not be tomorrow (or when your friend travels).

In theory, people travelling within Europe will be able to use their vaccination, testing (self testing is not often accepted) or recovery certificates.

France has now issued its digital Covid passport. Also it’s very easy to get a PCR or antigen test done throughout France

Having said that, the Delta variant is expected to become dominant in Spain during July…..
 
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LesBrass

Likes Walking
Year of past OR future Camino
yes...
@LesBrass, I can no longer see the timeframe of your young friend and what you said about her motive.

She's a resident of France which is what matters; passports usually don't matter for Covid-19 related travel restrictions. As far as I remember whenever France had very strict rules for incoming travellers in place, French nationals and holders of French residents cards were allowed to return. Also, and I think you and your sister (?) will remember this, transit travel on land to return to the place of residence was always allowed. So no potential issues for returning.

Anyway, it's all relatively short distances and on land, and I doubt that there will be severe restrictions during the summer months for travel within the EU.

My main concern would be the heat during July and August, actually. How would first and second jab (if not single-dose Janssen) fit together with a Camino from SJPP?

I see that both Spain and France continue to make good progress with their vaccination campaigns: 60% of the adult population had at least one jab in both countries, according to the ECDC of today.

Hi there - her limitations are the French school holidays so July and August really - She will have her second vaccine in July so she would have August to walk if she waits for both vaccines.

She has a UK passport and the French Residency Carte de Sejour, which should makes travel easier for her... but she is now considering cutting a section of the CF to fit in with her timescales. It's not what she wants but she can see that waiting is better. As someone mentioned France is already issuing the digital vaccine passport... we hope this will remain enough but gosh who know?!

And as we're all aware... things are changing daily, so all the plans that we make today might change tomorrow. I think we've convinced her that she should get her vaccine and then walk and she's coming around to that now.

Genuinely thank you for the ideas and suggestions... it's very difficult for everyone these days and I know that walking the Camino can seem to some a little 'unimportant or unnecessary' in these difficult difficult days... but for her to give you a little background... She was 12 when her mum was diagnosed with cancer and she watched her face a double mastectomy and hard chemo... she was 15 when she learned the cancer returned... she was 16 when she learned her mum would die and she was 17 when she finally said goodbye. They were going to walk the camino together... and for her it's the last chance to have 6 week off before work starts... life is never quite as simple as we think, Covid doesn't worry her as much as cancer and we've all had to offer her sensible advice... but I'm very grateful to all for your kind words and understanding.
 

smj6

Siempre hay que ver el positivo
Year of past OR future Camino
Oct/Nov 2016 (Via Podensis/ Frances)
Oct 2018 (Via Francigena stage)
I live in France & their digital passport for Covid is now operational. Time between 1st & 2nd jabs has been accelerated.
Sadly we’re along way from 60% fully vaccinated (& even further from having ‘herd immunity’ 😩)
 

Marcus-UK

Old Git
Year of past OR future Camino
Camino Ingles 2016 Camino Portuguese 2017 Considering Invierno late (2020) In lieu of VdlP (2020)
In the UK we can pick up RATs (Rapid Antigen Tests) for free from a variety of sources. They are self-tests and therefore not suitable for international travel but they do provide some assurance. I went to my first live music performance in 16 months on Friday. All very well behaved and very wonderful. Tested myself on Sunday and will test again tomorrow.
I have responsibilities to family, tribe and that bloke who delivers my wine to make sure I am not a threat to their safety.
The Antigen tests tend to have a high incident of false positives necessitating a full PCR test. They are however unlikely to give a false negative, so their reliability for indicating that one does not have the Covid infection is very good.
 
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JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Year of past OR future Camino
100 characters or fewer : see signature details
The Antigen tests tend to have a high incident of false positives
There are two types of antigen test ; it's the lateral flow one that produces many false results. This is the self-administered one.

The other one is the type that permits travel in Europe, and it's a lot more reliable. You can get a false positive with it, if you have recently recovered from Covid19, but you still have the antibodies in your system.
 

backpack45

Active Member
Year of past OR future Camino
Vezelay (2017, in progress); Primitivo & Norte; Geneva/LePuy; Arles; Portuguese; Francés + more
I've shied away from crossing national borders on our small continent out of sheer fear ... fear of that nasal swab.
I had one nasal swab -- a year ago -- and I was quite concerned about how it would feel. It was needless fear, I hardly felt it. I imagine those who give it have gotten better at doing it, but no guarantees, or course.
 

Kanga

Moderator
Staff member
Year of past OR future Camino
Francés x 5, Le Puy x 2, Arles, Tours, Norte, Madrid, Via de la Plata, Portuguese, Primitivo
I've had the nasal swab test five times now (grandchildren who are forever passing on colds). It's a piece of cake.

@LesBrass it sounds like the vaccine issue has resolved. I hope your young friend gets to go on camino and that it brings comfort after the tragedies she has suffered. May she find moments of pleasure, joy and a light heart.
 

Faye Walker

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
CF 2014, CF 2018, CP 2019 from Coimbra
What is your young friend's tolerance level for doubt in the face of an outbreak? With 2 vaccines under her belt in July, will she feel more secure even if passing through or in proximity of a geographic location with an outbreak? If she does not wait for the second vaccine, will she lose out on benefits of timely vaccination scheduling? If she does not get the second dose and passes through a hot-spot, will her own camino be ruined by anxiety?

See the following for what *can* happen amongst youth and just did in Majorca: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57635377
 
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trecile

Camino Addict
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Faye Walker

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
CF 2014, CF 2018, CP 2019 from Coimbra
This really seems like an apples and oranges situation. It doesn't sound like any of those students were vaccinated, and they were likely engaging in much different bahavior than a pilgrim on the Camino.
Oh -- I don't mean that the walker would engage in such things, but that one might glance off such outbreaks because they simply can happen on the ground -- where a concert might happen, or the festival San Fermin, for example... many people, not all vaccinated... doing their thing... and leaving behind a mess for a walker to collide with.

I happen to have a low anxiety threshold and would find it very difficult to focus on the walk if I were to have slept in a town with a massive outbreak and the absence of the benefits of "full" immunity.
 

George Vancouver

New Member
Year of past OR future Camino
2019
I have a young friend who is interested in walking the Camino this summer but who has not yet received her vaccine. She lives in France and is French Resident but holds a UK passport.

If she has a negative test before leaving home will she be allowed to cross the land border into Spain? And will Albergues check her vaccine status whilst walking? She won't walk if she is not eligible and she hopes to have her vaccine soon

Thanks in advance
The obvious solution is to get vaccinated.
 
Year of past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
See the following for what *can* happen amongst youth and just did in Majorca: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57635377
I get a "404 Page cannot be found error" when I click on the link. In fact, searching for "Palma Bellver hotel" on the BBC website yields no search results.

I did manage to read the BBC article on the Wayback Machine. I guess it was a little one-sided.

The story of Covid-19 outbreaks among hundreds of Spanish students on end-of-term school trips to Mallorca is in all the news. This article in the English language version of El Pais may be more balanced. Covid-19 health and safety rules were not obeyed and some of the irregular events with student irregular behaviour were organised by specialised travel agencies, also not complying with current rules, and who now risk being sued by Spanish authorities.

A far cry from what @LesBrass' young friend intends to do during her summer vacation time.
 
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Faye Walker

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
CF 2014, CF 2018, CP 2019 from Coimbra
I get a "404 Page cannot be found error" when I click on the link. In fact, searching for "Palma Bellver hotel" on the BBC website yields no search results.

I did manage to read the BBC article on the Wayback Machine. I guess it was a little one-sided.

The story of Covid-19 outbreaks among hundreds of Spanish students on end-of-term school trips to Mallorca is in all the news. This article in the English language version of El Pais may be more balanced. Covid-19 health and safety rules were not obeyed and some of the irregular events with student irregular behaviour were organised by specialised travel agencies, also not complying with current rules, and who now risk being sued by Spanish authorities.

A far cry from what @LesBrass' young friend intends to do during her summer vacation time.

Once again — I was *NOT* suggesting the young friend would be engaged in such. What I asked is whether she would be able to cope well if she were to come into contact with an outbreak situation in a town that has, perhaps, been saturated with rule-breaking partiers. Festivals of various sizes are common enough in summer in Spain. Without the 2nd vaccine, the young friend might find herself feeling rather more “vulnerable” on her walk should she encounter an outbreak situation.

That question was “what is your friend’s risk tolerance?”
 
Year of past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
That question was “what is your friend’s risk tolerance?”
Yes, I had understood from your clarification that you were addressing the question of an individual's anxiety level.

As to risks as such ... I personally find it very difficult to assess risk levels for an individual person as so much depends on behaviour and circumstances and chance encounters. I personally would be more worried about sleeping in shared dormitories with others where I know nothing about their potential status of vaccination or infection or adherence to safety standards than about the potential aftermath of local festivals or parties in a town where I am passing through, whether large scale or small scale. But that is just my gut feeling, I wouldn't know where to start working out actual risks for an individual person.
 

Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
Frances (2015); Aragones-Frances (2016); VdlP-Sanabres (2017); Madrid-Frances-Invierno (2019)Levante
I personally would be more worried about sleeping in shared dormitories with others where I know nothing about their potential status of vaccination or infection or adherence to safety standards
I quite agree, but nonetheless I have decided to volunteer in a large donativo albergue after I finish walking my own camino this fall. I shall hope that the general level of vaccination is high. I am fully vaccinated, but have no confidence in this as protection against the Delta variant of the virus, or any other new variant. I shall try to keep the place hygienic as much as possible and wear a mask whenever the albergue is open. But I cannot be sure about the behaviour of others.
 

Faye Walker

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
CF 2014, CF 2018, CP 2019 from Coimbra
Yes, I had understood from your clarification that you were addressing the question of an individual's anxiety level.

As to risks as such ... I personally find it very difficult to assess risk levels for an individual person as so much depends on behaviour and circumstances and chance encounters. I personally would be more worried about sleeping in shared dormitories with others where I know nothing about their potential status of vaccination or infection or adherence to safety standards than about the potential aftermath of local festivals or parties in a town where I am passing through, whether large scale or small scale. But that is just my gut feeling, I wouldn't know where to start working out actual risks for an individual person.

I would not know either, but those are the kinds of questions I would ask a friend Who wanted to engage in an activity without taking all the usual precautions.

In more neutral terms: I’m a climber. But I have very little tolerance for injury. I dream of climbing Montserrat (and age may mean that I never get to do that). Bit, I would not do any kind of outdoor climbing without a full lead team, a helmet, fresh safety gear, fresh shoes… and I would not think of this were I not already rated a 5.11 climber

So a friend might say, “Faye, how can you handle the risks of climbing, an ‘inherently dangerous sport’?” And I would have to say that activities in early life prepared me to learn over several years at midlife… and that I would not even think of going outside without having 3 levels of ability beyond the rated difficulty of the routes I want to climb.

I think the Camino in Cov may have similar kinds of assessments that people can make.

And of course: there’s an ethical question about what any given walker owes to all others. IMHO: full vaccination status. But if people are permitted to cross EU borders without full vaccination completed, well then my opinion does not matter much and it’s back to the question of finding out whether a person will have their own experience ruined if they encounter an outbreak situation…
 
Year of past OR future Camino
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There was an article in the Guardian recently where I am still trying to wrap my mind around. It is written by David Spiegelhalter who is chair of the Winton Centre for Risk and Evidence Communication at Cambridge and Anthony Masters who is statistical ambassador for the Royal Statistical Society. David Spiegelhalter also published an article in the BMJ last September: Use of “normal” risk to improve understanding of dangers of Covid-19.

In the Guardian article they write about the risk of dying of Covid-19, not about the risk of infecting others which is something else again and much harder to assess properly. This sentence caught me by surprise: The risk of dying from Covid-19 is extraordinarily dependent on age: It halves for each six to seven year age gap. This means that someone aged 80 who is fully vaccinated essentially takes on the risk of an unvaccinated person of around 50 – much lower, but still not nothing.

This confirms my impression that proper risk assessment for an individual person is a rather complicated business.
 
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Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
Frances (2015); Aragones-Frances (2016); VdlP-Sanabres (2017); Madrid-Frances-Invierno (2019)Levante
The risk of dying from Covid-19 is extraordinarily dependent on age: It halves for each six to seven year age gap. This means that someone aged 80 who is fully vaccinated essentially takes on the risk of an unvaccinated person of around 50 – much lower, but still not nothing.
Oh, oh.
 

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
There was an article in the Guardian recently where I am still trying to wrap my mind around. It is written by David Spiegelhalter who is chair of the Winton Centre for Risk and Evidence Communication at Cambridge and Anthony Masters who is statistical ambassador for the Royal Statistical Society. David Spiegelhalter also published an article in the BMJ last September: Use of “normal” risk to improve understanding of dangers of Covid-19.

In the Guardian article they write about the risk of dying of Covid-19, not about the risk of infecting others which is something else again and much harder to assess properly. This sentence caught me by surprise: The risk of dying from Covid-19 is extraordinarily dependent on age: It halves for each six to seven year age gap. This means that someone aged 80 who is fully vaccinated essentially takes on the risk of an unvaccinated person of around 50 – much lower, but still not nothing.

This confirms my impression that proper risk assessment for an individual person is a rather complicated business.

I did not get through the entire article, but it doesn’t seem surprising to me. I am wondering if this is any different than for other health conditions. In other words, it seems reasonable to suspect that an 80 yo with no heart conditions may have similar mortality from heart attack as a 50 with health conditions. Not sure that’s a good analogy, but I expect that even in the best of circumstances an 80 yo in good health/vaccinated might have just as high mortality as a 50 yo in not good health/unvaccinated.

Does that make sense?
 

CalgaryLynn

Active Member
Year of past OR future Camino
2021
Life is a risk, all one can do is mitigate it as much as possible. Every time I get in my car and come close to crazy drivers, my life is at risk. I move as far away as possible from that risk.

There has been lots of information about the efficacy of vaccines and the combinations of vaccines. We can all quote the numbers There have been 9 deaths in Canada of people who have received both vaccines. In each instance, there were co-morbidities and/or the allotted 2 week period for immunization to take full effect was not met. When that number is compared to the millions of people who have received the vaccines and not been ill, the odds with full vaccine coverage of getting sick while on Camino is quite small.

There are always exceptions to the rule and people react differently to vaccines. If she is full vaccinated and sensible, she is likely going to have a wonderful Camino. I really wonder why someone asks these kinds of questions on a forum such as this. None of us are infectious disease specialists so we are only getting the same information as everyone else.

Personally IMHO, if you have to ask the question, perhaps that is a sign that you are not comfortable with your decision.
 
Year of past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
Personally IMHO, if you have to ask the question, perhaps that is a sign that you are not comfortable with your decision.
I take it that you write from Canada? Seen from Canada, the situation is simple: you are either allowed to go on a non-essential trip to Spain or you are not allowed to do so; allowed/forbidden/advised against by either the Spanish government or by the Canadian government or by both.

Living inside the EU, the situations are more complicated and have changed rapidly from one day to the next, and this especially since Christmas 2020, strangely enough, and not since March 2020 when everything everywhere simply closed down for everyone.

If you are not a national of the EU country where you live but a foreign resident, perhaps even with a somewhat new legal status since 1 January 2021 as is the case here, it can get even more confusing as to where you can travel under which circumstances and under current Covid-19 rules and restrictions.

Clarification on these aspects is what @LesBrass asked for. She didn't ask for the thread to pivot into questions about vaccines, risk assessments, opinions on ethics, opinions on the best measures to deal with the pandemic and the Covid-19 disease but this happened. It was probably inevitable.

PS: France has land/sea borders with seven different neighbouring countries! And some of them had/have even different Covid-19 related rules, depending from which region in France you come and to which region in the neighbouring country you want to travel to.
 
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