Warning: Improper behavior reported between Astorga and Rabanal

[Deleted member 3000]

can someone tell me what time is first light now In Spain

Civil twilight is about 0617, and will be about 1:30 minutes earlier per day through June 22. Actual sunrise is about thirty minutes later.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Police have leaked a bit more information which is published in this newspaper article from today:
http://www.elbierzodigital.com/los-...xual-en-la-desaparicion-de-denise-thiem/89180

Police often avoid official releases to keep some information from compromising the investigation while keeping the public alerted so it will provide leads.

 

[ivar]

I am trying to keep this thread "on track", so I have removed some posts. (I am not mad or anything, just trying to keep comments related to the first posts).

Please keep posts here Astorga - Rabanal related.

Other "Camino Crime" related posts should be made here:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/forums/camino-crime-watch.26/
... in the Camino Crime section of the forum.

Thanks!
Ivar

 

[naplesdon]

Hi can someone tell me what time is first light now In Spain it's about 6am here in Ireland. I think some of the best advice is in connection with walk early walk with the wave the later in the day one leaves it is likely that later means less people.
Thanks in advance
Rita

CET is the time zone for Spain. At the east end of the Camino France it is light around 6 but by 6:30 there is good visibility for walking late in May and June.

 

[terillp]

Thank you for this post. I am hesitant to share this with immediate family. Would it be appropriate to start a thread for solo females beginning the Camino within the next month or so, or should we reply here? I am solo beginning in SJPdP June 25.

I'd be interested in that. I'm beginning in Sarria on July 8th on my own. I'm not sharing the recent information with my immediate family because I don't want to cause my mom any more worry than she already has related to me traveling alone to a different country.

 

[ivar]

I'd be interested in that. I'm beginning in Sarria on July 8th on my own. I'm not sharing the recent information with my immediate family because I don't want to cause my mom any more worry than she already has related to me traveling alone to a different country.

Sarria is far from Astorga... so these incidents is not relevant to you if you start in Sarria and walk to Santiago.

 

[Hélène Cholette-Lacasse]

I will be walking the Camino Francés in September (leave SJPP late August, walk in to Santiago about the end of September). I am a confident woman and not fearful. I will be happy to share this part of the route with traveling companions who might find reassurance in knowing we can all look out for one another. (Hey, it's my first post! Thanks to all who share their knowledge and good humor in this forum!)

I too will be leaving SJPP in late August and walking all of September. I will be happy to share my camino with other traveling companions. May see you along the way Tessera! And thanks for keeping us informed Ivar...

 

[Sofie]

Thanx for the heads up Ivar!
Reading this I got a bit scared since I am walking the Camino all alone and for the first time, and I don't like that these events ruin the magic of the Camino.
But I guess that women everywhere have to be a bit cautios nowadays.
It makes me sad, because when I walk on my own I love the quiet, and being worried of an attack can ruin the peace I feel when walking.

 

[4329barbara]

Thank you for this post. I am currently in Burgos and have been walking predominately by myself going from tiny towns and not staying where the majority stay. I have never felt afraid. I will now up my alertness, being over 60 made me feel like I would be free of problems, pepper spray might be illegal, but deodorant spray isn't. A good dose of that could give time if necessary....will bus that section just to be sure. Thank you Ivar.

 

[rubyslippers]

I'd been debating whether to bring my pepper spray, buy some in Spain, or just hope that I'll be safe. Is pepper spray legal to carry in Spain?

I notice you are from the states and if you plan on carrying your pack on board do NOT go through security with pepper spray as it is considered a "weapon". If you think you want it get it in Spain. Starting early is a good idea and difficult not to do as so many get up early and rustle around. It's easy to walk near/with a group. Have fun and try not to worry. It's such a wonderful experience and most people you meet are full of helpful suggestions. This group being one of the best. You can check in here anytime and ask questions. Buen Camino!

 

[whitepaw]

I am leaving for my camino this Saturday 5/23. I will undoubtedly be walking through this area during the beginning of my camino (I'm starting in Leon.) As a solo female, I am wondering what details you can give about the situations that have been reported. This way I know behavior to look out for and when I should be walking with others. Any information you can provide would give this about-to-be pilgrim some peace of mind! Thank you! Sarah

same here, will be staring my camino June 4th alone and getting a lil worried!
If pepper spray is illegal, what kinda precautions can single female pilgrims make?

 

[irishgurrrl]

Dear Pilgrims,

There has been some improper behavior reported towards women over the last few weeks on the stage between Astorga and Rabanal. These reports are sufficiently credible that we would like to make a general advisory that pilgrims walking alone on this section of the Camino Frances, might want to walk in pairs or groups. This is the general area where Denise the missing pilgrims was last seen a few weeks ago. The local police are still working on finding Denise and also are aware of these latest occurrences.

The Camino has been a very safe place, and it still is, but it only takes a few to make the situation more uncertain. This message is not made to scare anyone, but more to inform of the situation, so that if you are walking this section in the next few days/weeks can make the necessary adjustments and find a walking parter.

If you decide to comment on this thread, please try to stay away from speculations, so that this thread can become a place where pilgrims can come and learn "what we actually know", and not rumors or speculations around this topic. The mods will help me with this.

Buen Camino!
Ivar

Thanks Ivar. I appreciate you notifying everyone on the forum. It is the responsible thing to do and quite sad that it is necessary in the circumstances. Forewarned is forearmed so to speak. I hope perhaps the albergues in the area are advising pilgrims the same... I do hope so.


I am on another Camino and am being slightly vague about my itinerary with people I meet given I am travelling alone. My sister has my full itinerary so she knows exactly where I plan to travel etc. and I check in with her regularly.

Give the recent reports on different caminos it may be no harm to walk with (or in close proximity to) other pilgrims. Some basic precautions can go a long way to lessen the likelihood of a negative or unsafe experience but need not detract from the overall experience on Camino.

Safe and happy hiking everyone xxx

 

[grayland]

Pepper Spray CAN NOT be carried on board..as rubyslippers advises.
If you intend to carry anything of this type it will have to be obtained in Spain.

I am not sure what the Spanish law is regarding purchase and carrying.

The easiest and best precaution is simply to walk within sight of others.
This is not difficult in May through September.
It is not necessary to actually walk "with" others if not desired....just stay in sight.

Be sure to carry a very loud police style whistle attached to the front of your pack.
It will appear that you are signaling others with you ....or even that you are a police decoy. Try to find a VERY loud whistle.
Use it any time you feel threatened...no harm done if no actual threat.

These were good precautions even before the present situation and were often suggested in the forum.
Try to walk without fear.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Police are not linking the attempted kidnapping to the disappearance, but are investigating both:

http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...-caso-peregrina-intento-secuestro_980086.html

http://www.leonoticias.com/frontend...-El-Monte-Evita-El-Rapto-De-U-vn175269-vst218

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Police are not linking the attempted kidnapping to the disappearance, but are investigating both:

http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...-caso-peregrina-intento-secuestro_980086.html

http://www.leonoticias.com/frontend...-El-Monte-Evita-El-Rapto-De-U-vn175269-vst218

Falcon--in Diaro de Leon, the article suggests that they are considering that "line":

In line with the investigations to clarify the whereabouts of this pilgrim [Denise Thiem], of whom nothing is known, it has emerged that one of the lines that shuffled the security forces was to analyze the testimony of other women who have acknowledged having been "harassed" and "disturbed "in this same area.
It seems that nothing is casual, but at the moment, the task is trying to find out whether or not there is a relationship between all cases.

Also, two other lines of investigation have been ruled out (voluntary disappearance and also an accident).

 

[tominrm]

It appears women have the instinct they rely on. If you feel someone ahead makes you uncomfortable whip out your cell phone first and pretend as if you are talking with someone on the phone as you approach. If the person says something to you, pretend that you are asking for excuses as if you say " excuse me, someone here is asking me a question" before you respond to the person.

 

[irishgurrrl]

Thank you. I'll leave sjpdp on June 1st though. Thanks anyway

Hi Ellie, when I did my first Camino we started a thread for anyone starting around the same date.... Class of 2012.... A few if us were starting from St Jean PdeP on Sept 1st and arranged to book into the same hostel. Anyone who wanted to walk together did. Maybe you can start a similar thread if one hasn't been started already....

 

[Jackie Rob]

Hi all, currently overnighting at the Caldazilla albergue so will be in/around Astorga in a few days time but have taken heed of the warning (thank you Ivar) and will be vigilant because although I am a female approaching my 50th year who prefers to walk alone and am not, by nature, a fearful person I think it pays to be mindful of good advice and will look to see if I can attach myself to a group or stay within close sight of one for that section of the journey. I have also shared this advice with others staying at the albergue today and will continue to do so as I come into contact with solo walkers (irrespective of age or gender)

 

[Jackie Rob]

I think in essence your suggestion is reasonable but I'd be loathe to have my phone out on display as some types (I-phones etc) are attractive to any ner-do-wells with theft in mind. The simplest thing would be to link up with someone - it's highly unlikely such a request would be rebuffed in the circumstances.

It appears women have the instinct they rely on. If you feel someone ahead makes you uncomfortable whip out your cell phone first and pretend as if you are talking with someone on the phone as you approach. If the person says something to you, pretend that you are asking for excuses as if you say " excuse me, someone here is asking me a question" before you respond to the person.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

there are only 2 of ud in Esclampero and apparently it's been this wayfor the last 3 days but someone last week posted albergues were full. Nothing to do but walk alone...

 

[CJ Williams]

I'd been debating whether to bring my pepper spray, buy some in Spain, or just hope that I'll be safe. Is pepper spray legal to carry in Spain?

Confirmed: pepper spray is illegal to carry in Spain, as another commenter pointed out.

 

[Jan_89]

Thank you for the info, Ivar! I can't believe that we have to talk about this topic on the forum about Camino.. Unfortunately evil people are everywhere and we have to be careful all the time..

 

[Anniesantiago]

Please don't carry pepper spray.
That is SUCH overkill.

People, this is ONE tiny 12 mile (+/-) section of a FIVE HUNDRED MILE LONG Camino where all you need to do is walk with a buddy or group for a few kilometers. There have been no reports of any problems anywhere else along the route.

I live in Portland, Oregon.
There were 3 gang related shootings here Wednesday night.
Several people were killed.
I'm still walking to the park today and I'm not afraid of getting shot.

Was there violence in the town where you live last week?

Please put this into perspective.

 

[countycork]

Dear Pilgrims,

There has been some improper behavior reported towards women over the last few weeks on the stage between Astorga and Rabanal. These reports are sufficiently credible that we would like to make a general advisory that pilgrims walking alone on this section of the Camino Frances, might want to walk in pairs or groups. This is the general area where Denise the missing pilgrims was last seen a few weeks ago. The local police are still working on finding Denise and also are aware of these latest occurrences.

The Camino has been a very safe place, and it still is, but it only takes a few to make the situation more uncertain. This message is not made to scare anyone, but more to inform of the situation, so that if you are walking this section in the next few days/weeks can make the necessary adjustments and find a walking parter.

If you decide to comment on this thread, please try to stay away from speculations, so that this thread can become a place where pilgrims can come and learn "what we actually know", and not rumors or speculations around this topic. The mods will help me with this.

Buen Camino!
Ivar

Thank you Ivar for posting this information.
My husband and I spent ten days on Camino last Sept/Oct. We liked to start walking early before daylight but at times it felt quite scary even with a small torch light. At that time most people we met didn’t seem to be in the mood for ‘chatting’ so I would say don’t start walking until its light and make sure to be at your accommodation before it gets dark in the evening. While walking always make sure others are within sight both in front and behind you. Be aware of your surroundings from the moment you start in St Jean till you finish, not only in Astorga area! At any stage, if you feel like going an alternative route then tell somebody and/or even suggest you meet them at the next village or wherever. And I think most important of all (someone else suggested it too) would be to carry a really loud whistle around your neck. In this way you would frighten the daylights out of your ‘attacker’ and alert other pilgrims on the way. In fact I will definitely take one with me when I continue with my next part of the CF.

 

[ksam]

I've stopped walking with my headphones during my training walks and just take in the scenery and sounds. This is practice for the camino to be in the moment but also to be aware of my surroundings........ But I guess in the end you never know how you will act. It will be instinctual. I knew 2 fellow female students long ago who were mugged. One froze as in a trance and the other one fought. Neither one ever predicted how she wound up reacting.

I love what you've said here. Be aware, as much as possible when your walking alone..anywhere! When I do use my earbuds I only put one in. the other gets tucked under my pack strap. That way I'm never completely removed from my surroundings.

On your other comment all I can say is TRUE!! Years ago I was assaulted on the subway and was able to get him away from me so instinctually and forcefully that when I actually encountered him months later at the same subway station...he ran from me! I don't know that anyone (myself included!) would have pegged me for being able to do that. But it was nice to know I could and did react that way. I guess planning..thinking ahead is the only way to try and get these behaviors ingrained. Without becoming paranoid, just think thru, what if this happened what would I do? What would be a good reaction? How would I get help? Perhaps taking a class wouldn't be a bad idea. Again I'm not wanting anyone to be more afraid, just aware...always aware of who is around you. Being on the Camino shouldn't be any different than walking here at home. Caution and precautions should always be taken.

On that note..many backpacks have a whistle built into the upper clasp. I know both of my packs have one. If yours doesn't what about simply carrying a whistle attached to the upper chest strap? this way it's always with you and easily accessible. The last thing someone with ill intent wants is attention. A loud whistle would certainly attract attention.

Will I let this deter me from walking yet again? No. Alone again? Yes. But with care and forethought.

Wishing all my fellow pilgrims Peace as they walk to Santiago. Buen Camino all!!

 

[movinmaggie]

I am also walking alone Sept/Oct. When and where are you starting from? Cindy

Hi Cindy, I leave Victoria, BC Sept 21 for Madrid, but will stay over one night then on to Pamplona for another night, then to SJdP to purchase poles & poncho, then one more night….so looks like I would start my walk approx Sept 25, all of October and a couple of days in Nov. I see you're from Col; my daughter lives near 'The Springs'. Thanks for your post.

 

[DurhamParish]

If pepper spray is illegal, what kinda precautions can single female pilgrims make?

Insect spray, or better yet, insect repellent. A dose of that in the face and eyes would do the trick.

 

[Anniesantiago]

same here, will be staring my camino June 4th alone and getting a lil worried!
If pepper spray is illegal, what kinda precautions can single female pilgrims make?

It is simple and has been said many times on this long, long thread:

Walk with a buddy or a group,
don't use earphones,
and be aware of your surroundings on this particular stretch.

Don't let paranoia ruin your walk and

For goodness sakes, don't walk the Camino with a can of insect repellent in your hands.

 

[annakappa]

Since no-one seems to have created a thread for those who want walking companions, I just did:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/ill-walk-with-you.33777/
We take care of each other here...everyone's posts are very heartening. (BTW, I echo the 'no fear' comments. There are many pilgrims now and by and large we DO take care of each other.)

Viranani has had the good sense and taken the initiative to start a new thread, whereby you can hope to find and join up with other Pilgrims. See the above link.

I say this, because I think this important thread started by Ivar, has developed into a site where some people are hoping to hook up with others, from a large amounts of starting points and an enormous amount of dates. IMHO this distracts from the importance of the thread and also from practical advice as to how to avoid or, should you be harassed, now to get out of your unpleasant situation.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Confirmed: pepper spray is illegal to carry in Spain, as another commenter pointed out.

On to sprays. Read the following sentence fully. Sprays are illegal, as are all devices that fire gases or aerosols, together with any devices that include a mechanism capable of projecting narcotics, toxins or corrosives; however personal defense sprays are allowed if they are of a type permitted by the Spanish ministry of health and carried by someone over the age of 18 (who must be able to prove their age using an identity card, passport or residence permit). The law goes on to state that these self-defense sprays are of the type most typically found in “armerias” (specialist shops).

Let’s simplify that statement: Defensive sprays are allowed provided they are owned by those over 18 years of age and are one of the types authorized. In practice, the ones that are sold in “armerias” are all legal.

Defensive sprays tend to cause involuntary eye closure, abundant tears, dilation of the pupils and itching of the eyes and mouth.

 

[Peter Rennie]

Pilgrimage has always been a risky business; at least these days there's not so much in the way of wolves, brigands or treacherous maidens getting you hanged. But wherever you get lots of people, no matter how holy or special the place, you will get those who want to exploit it for criminal purposes. There are numerous threads on opportunistic thieves in albergues etc.

A lot of crime like this is opportunistic as is likely the "improper behaviour" - vigilance is the key. There's been lots of good advice on this thread on strategies. Just don't let vigilance and care interfere with what is a unique and special journey.

 

[peregrinebynature]

Can we not admonish women for trying to find ways to feel safe please. I know many here want to downplay the dangers but remember your trying to shut down conversation about the dangers only strengthens the position of the creeps. They thrive on silence. None of these dangers are new, but they are only now being reported because the world is shifting away from patriarchy and rape culture. The younger generation of women are not as accepting of unwanted sexual behaviors. As women especially let us support this shift toward equality.

Edited to add. Please carry pepper spray if you want either here or in Portland Oregon. However I think taking a photo of a perp could drive them to take your phone from you.

 

[Chris White]

Hi everyone,
I am currently on the Camino, staying in Navarette tonight with my wife. If you are a female travelling alone and feel threatened, please feel free to approach and travel with us. We are more than willing to share our journey with you. Ps we aim to be at Santiago by June 22 or thereabouts.
Buen Camino

 

[s. brown]

Please don't carry pepper spray.
That is SUCH overkill.

People, this is ONE tiny 12 mile (+/-) section of a FIVE HUNDRED MILE LONG Camino where all you need to do is walk with a buddy or group for a few kilometers. There have been no reports of any problems anywhere else along the route.

I live in Portland, Oregon.
There were 3 gang related shootings here Wednesday night.
Several people were killed.
I'm still walking to the park today and I'm not afraid of getting shot.

Was there violence in the town where you live last week?

Please put this into perspective.

It is not my intention to be rude or disrespectful, but I must to respond to your comment.

1) You write,"There have been no reports of any problems anywhere else along the (FIVE HUNDRED MILE LONG) route." You are dead wrong. All kinds of women have been coming forward on this forum in recent weeks with frightening experiences all along the route, including the poor woman at the Samos monastery who reported being "molested" by a monk in the gift shop (camino crime section).

2) Any woman who is walking in the "ONE tiny 12 miles (+/-) section" might very well wish she had pepper spray or some kind of aid if she suddenly finds that she is the one in a possible kidnapping, abduction, robbery, rape, etc. situation. Why would this be "SUCH overkill"? The Spanish language has words for kidnapping, abduction, robbery, rape, and murder; these acts are not unheard of in Spain. If Denise Thiem could chime in here, I wonder what she might say.

3) Insect repellant (your response to DurhamParish's comment) is, in fact, a suggested device for warding off attackers; my sister just received this as a recommendation from an Atlanta police officer. Women are prey all around the world; it's as old as time itself.

I can appreciate that you are a veteran camino walker, and I'm pleased that you seem to have had no bad experiences--I truly am-- but reality tells us this isn't every woman's or man's experience on the camino.

I have come to believe that the camino is a grand experience for many -- almost magical, deeply profound, a journey of a lifetime. But because one has that kind of experience doesn't mean everyone else will.

Anything that makes a person feel safer -- walking with others, whistles, bug spray, pepper spray, walking sticks, etc. has got to be a good thing. They, in fact, may not make one safer but it contributes to a feeling of safety. Frankly, if I were walking with another woman and we heard a whistle, I don't know what I'd do. I don't even know what I'm supposed to do. What if I'm not carrying a cell phone, as some veterans insist I don't do? People on this forum give good advice, but some give advice seen through rose-tinted glasses.

I am somewhat sorry about the diatribe, but one person's experience may not be another's.

 

[DebraS.]

In addition to walking with a partner or in a group....can I suggest everyone keep your eyes open and alert for the women that might somehow find themselves walking alone suddenly? Paces change, people detour and stop for rest. A woman may suddenly not be in a group any longer. Maybe warn that person if you see she is about to be alone? As everyone says, it seems like it may be crowded but as it gets later in the day, that may be less likely?

 

[cbecker1731]

Hey, thanks.

Im walking cf alone in June. Was wondering if any groups or anyone will be in this area mid June so i can walk with someone??

Thanks

Hey Ellie, I'm going solo too and leaving SJPDP on May 29th/30th. We will probably be getting to places around the same time

 

[KinkyOne]

It didn't happened on that stretch but I'm afraid that this post went by unnoticed:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/flasher-near-ponte-maceira.33812/

 

[GettingThere]

Dear Pilgrims,

There has been some improper behavior reported towards women over the last few weeks on the stage between Astorga and Rabanal. These reports are sufficiently credible that we would like to make a general advisory that pilgrims walking alone on this section of the Camino Frances, might want to walk in pairs or groups. This is the general area where Denise the missing pilgrims was last seen a few weeks ago. The local police are still working on finding Denise and also are aware of these latest occurrences.

The Camino has been a very safe place, and it still is, but it only takes a few to make the situation more uncertain. This message is not made to scare anyone, but more to inform of the situation, so that if you are walking this section in the next few days/weeks can make the necessary adjustments and find a walking parter.

If you decide to comment on this thread, please try to stay away from speculations, so that this thread can become a place where pilgrims can come and learn "what we actually know", and not rumors or speculations around this topic. The mods will help me with this.

Buen Camino!
Ivar

Thank you for posting this, Ivar. My mother and I walked this section on Sunday and although we are slow walkers there was never a shortage of other pilgrims in front and behind us. We also (on Saturday) walked the alternative section from Murias to Castrillo. Interestingly the only time on the whole Camino so far I have felt really unsafe - but from the traffic, which was very fast and quite heavy.

Another thing that concerned me in this area was that in the current (2015) edition of the Brierley guide there is a road marked between El Ganso and the off-camino village of Santa Colomba. We had tried unsuccessfully to book a room in Rabanal so had taken Mr B's suggestion and booked the (incidentally delightful) Casa Pepa in Santa Colomba, which according to Brierley is 4km from El Ganso on this road, and thought we might walk it. Well, luckily (!) my tendinitis was playing up and I couldn't do it so we asked the bar owner in El Ganso to call us a taxi. He scratched his head then took me outside and pointed to his car, a big four-wheel drive, explained that's what you need and very kindly offered to drive us. I know, rides from strangers etc - but it felt ok so we accepted gratefully. All I can say is that "road" may technically be one, but is really nothing but a very rough track over the moors, at times barely visible as such. There are many forks and basically we would never have found our way. I really hate to think of anyone seeing that map and thinking they will walk it, especially late in the day or in poor weather (luckily for us again, and our driver, it was fine and dry - but weather can change quickly in areas like that). And yes, I will write and tell John Brierley about this and suggest the map is amended.

Sorry for the long post, but I was struck by the safety implications and especially given recent events, for anyone who might attempt to walk this way. My advice to anyone wanting to go to Santa Colomba would be to get transport (the lovely Laura from Casa Pepa will pick you up, or a taxi would do it, they would just take the long way round through Rabanal or back towards Astorga).

Buen Camino!

 

[NorthernLight]

Thanks Ivar! My sister is on her first camino and just passing Leon now. I forwarded the advisory and she can share it with others who are approaching Astorga.

You do good work.

 

[Jola Dvr]

I have the same feeling, I want to do this camino, but now I feel that I have to be overly alert. I do not want to spoil the magic of the camino, but at the same time, it sounds more necessary than ever to pay attention. I walk a different camino (Primitivo) and I know it is not anywhere near as busy as the CF, thats why I loved it and thats why I chose to do it again. What happened to Marc31 on the Primitiv just days ago it is unnerving, and I should be there Sat 23 (Escamplero).
Not nice, I hope and wish that something good will come from this situation. Meanwhile I am more than happy to join a thread for solo walkers

Same here. It took me a long time to convince myself that I would be ok traveling alone. I booked my flight and now I am feeling nervous all over again after reading post on the missing pilgrim and improper behavior. This couldn't come in worse time for me. I will be taking train to SJ on Aug 25th planning to start the Camino on the 26th and reaching Roncesvalles on the first day. If anyone has similar plans and would like to walk together over the mountains let me know, please.

 

[grayland]

Jola...there will be many pilgrims to walk with when you leave St. Jean.
Simply leave early and wait by the bridge leaving town if you are not already in a group. You will find it almost impossible to be alone.
The same at Orisson...simply walk along with others.
It does not matter if you are with them or not..just keep in sight.

Also, be aware that the area with the problems is about 22 or 23 days after
St. Jean..plenty of time to join a family of new friends.
Don't walk with fear.

 

[waveprof]

Same here. It took me a long time to convince myself that I would be ok traveling alone. I booked my flight and now I am feeling nervous all over again after reading post on the missing pilgrim and improper behavior. This couldn't come in worse time for me. I will be taking train to SJ on Aug 25th planning to start the Camino on the 26th and reaching Roncesvalles on the first day. If anyone has similar plans and would like to walk together over the mountains let me know, please.

You'll be safe. And I wouldn't start tying yourself down by trying to make plans in advance to walk with people for safety. There will be PLENTY of people the first day, you won't be alone. And even if you were, you are over 300 miles from where these instances took place. And by the time you get to Astorga you'll have NO problem finding who YOU want to walk with for a day or two for safety.

 

[thecatalanway]

In addition to walking with a partner or in a group....can I suggest everyone keep your eyes open and alert for the women that might somehow find themselves walking alone suddenly? Paces change, people detour and stop for rest. A woman may suddenly not be in a group any longer. Maybe warn that person if you see she is about to be alone? As everyone says, it seems like it may be crowded but as it gets later in the day, that may be less likely?

I agree with you totally - this new situation of vigilance may mean that those who walk fast or with longer strides may need to slow down a bit to accompany someone who is walking more slowly or has shorter legs (like me!) . As I said in another thread, I often found myself walking alone because I was slower or later in the day. I love walking alone and am so glad I had this experience before being woken up to the real possible dangers, but there were times when I wished there was someone in sight - either in front or behind. that was in April though and I am sure the Camino is busier now. Buen Camino all who are walking and may your path be as beautiful as mine was.

 

[ricitosdeplata]

Mentioned on other posts, I'm taking a storm whistle attached to the front of my backpack. This is touted to be the loudest whistle in the world. Someone said they were left alone by gypsies owing to the fact he wore a Turkish evil eye bead. Is that too much? If I happen to run into one while shopping I might consider it.

 

[natefaith]

@Jola Dvr , and others,
As grayland keeps saying, Don't walk with fear. And as AugustCaminoDeb keeps saying, Knowledge is power. Obviously we all want the Camino to be a safe place, and we pilgrims can keep building into a culture of safety by looking out for each other and helping each other out. Unfortunately, though, the reality is that recently in this stretch there have been dangerous incidents such as stun gun use and an attempted kidnapping. The purpose of a thread like this is to raise our awareness so that we can adjust to the new recent reality and prepare ourselves, *so that* we can walk boldly on. Don't be anxious about anything, keep your wits about you, and take care of your fellow pilgrims. Enjoy all the rest of your planning and Buen Camino!
Faith

 

[dcorrea951]

Thank you for this post.

Popa, where did you get the T-Shirt ?

 

[CaminoDebrita]

@Jola Dvr , and others,
As grayland keeps saying, Don't walk with fear. And as AugustCaminoDeb keeps saying, Knowledge is power. Obviously we all want the Camino to be a safe place, and we pilgrims can keep building into a culture of safety by looking out for each other and helping each other out. Unfortunately, though, the reality is that recently in this stretch there have been dangerous incidents such as stun gun use and an attempted kidnapping. The purpose of a thread like this is to raise our awareness so that we can adjust to the new recent reality and prepare ourselves, *so that* we can walk boldly on. Don't be anxious about anything, keep your wits about you, and take care of your fellow pilgrims. Enjoy all the rest of your planning and Buen Camino!
Faith

I love this post! Seriously, there is no need to worry, fret, or stress out. If you know what to expect, you can prepare for it.

Buen Camino, and let's all take a step back and let the authorities in Spain do their good work. It is time to come together as a community, not apart.

 

[Rhysmike]

Dear Pilgrims,

There has been some improper behavior reported towards women over the last few weeks on the stage between Astorga and Rabanal. These reports are sufficiently credible that we would like to make a general advisory that pilgrims walking alone on this section of the Camino Frances, might want to walk in pairs or groups. This is the general area where Denise the missing pilgrims was last seen a few weeks ago. The local police are still working on finding Denise and also are aware of these latest occurrences.

The Camino has been a very safe place, and it still is, but it only takes a few to make the situation more uncertain. This message is not made to scare anyone, but more to inform of the situation, so that if you are walking this section in the next few days/weeks can make the necessary adjustments and find a walking parter.

If you decide to comment on this thread, please try to stay away from speculations, so that this thread can become a place where pilgrims can come and learn "what we actually know", and not rumors or speculations around this topic. The mods will help me with this.

Buen Camino!
Ivar

I also appreciate the information and the balanced responses. I have often read that in the past pilgrims would meet at towns like St. Jean to form into groups for comradeship and protection. There is something appropriate about using the walk to meet up with others and not being put off by apprehension. Thanks to the community.

 

[movinmaggie]

Mentioned on other posts, I'm taking a storm whistle attached to the front of my backpack. This is touted to be the loudest whistle in the world. Someone said they were left alone by gypsies owing to the fact he wore a Turkish evil eye bead. Is that too much? If I happen to run into one while shopping I might consider it.

I too had packed a whistle, but I do this regularly when I hike alone, but not out of fear - more for if I'm injured and there's no immediately help in sight. Many cultures have their own version of the 'Evil eye', so someone from let's say Greece, would recognize one in Spain. I have a feeling I won't need my whistle, but it's always on me. Buen Canimo

 

[tbJoe]

Ivar - Thanks for the thread!

My wife is currently walking solo and just passed Azofra. (about a week out? from the area?) I passed along the warning and she responded that the perigrinos have been getting regular updates on the situation near Astorga.

Everyone has to make their own decision on how to travel through this area safely. It should not matter if one wants to walk in a group or bus though. The important thing is SAFETY.

Let us pray for the safety of all the pilgrims and hope that the individuals attempting these crimes are caught quickly.

 

[whariwharangi]

"As long as you continue to be afraid, the bad guy is in control," and I refuse to allow that!

Well said.

This thread is a double edged sword ... people need to be informed of a potential hazard versus how to do that without spreading unreasoning fear.

 

[grayland]

Gently people...

Personal remarks are never a good thing.
In a thread like this they are often a flash point that requires a thread to be closed.

The object of this thread is to exchange facts in order that there is a place for members to have some understanding of the current situation in Spain....as far as we can.

Please refrain from anything else.

Thanks
moderators

 

[Anniesantiago]

I deleted my response and took it to PM.
Sorry.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

I deleted my response and took it to PM.
Sorry.

Hard month on the forum. You are fine.

 

[OttawaHeather]

Thank you for this post. I am hesitant to share this with immediate family. Would it be appropriate to start a thread for solo females beginning the Camino within the next month or so, or should we reply here? I am solo beginning in SJPdP June 25.

Solo female beginning in late July. I'd very much like to see a separate thread for solo females starting in the next few months so that we can ensure we all have a plan B to keep safe. Thank you and Buen Camino to all. Xo

 

[jirit]

Solo female beginning in late July. I'd very much like to see a separate thread for solo females starting in the next few months so that we can ensure we all have a plan B to keep safe. Thank you and Buen Camino to all. Xo

Hi Heather

Suggest you check out this link

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/ill-walk-with-you.33777/

 

[Anne C]

There is a lot of pilgrims walking now. Should not be a problem.

I walked today from Astorga to Rabanal leaving at 7am. Lots of pilgrims all the way. I have tendonitis so walked really slowly but had either someone with me or in sight all the time. Nothing to worry about if you leave early, plenty of pilgrims on the trail

 

[grayland]

Enjoy your walk, Anne.
Tomorrow should be another great adventure.
Stay safe and without fear.

 

[fiona99]

Probabl

Hi can someone tell me what time is first light now In Spain it's about 6am here in Ireland. I think some of the best advice is in connection with walk early walk with the wave the later in the day one leaves it is likely that later means less people.
Thanks in advance
Rita

Probably about the same here....I have been leaving about 645am.....you will know what time to get up due to all the others rustling about...has always been people in front and behind me at that time. Have spent quite a lot of time walking by myself with others in sight....lots of people around now so think it can only get busier. Sure you will be fine and if you don't feel comfortable wait for someone to catch up....everyone is very friendly.

 

[jirit]

I walked today from Astorga to Rabanal leaving at 7am. Lots of pilgrims all the way. I have tendonitis so walked really slowly but had either someone with me or in sight all the time. Nothing to worry about if you leave early, plenty of pilgrims on the trail

I seem to remember back in 2007, my wife and I called this the "Camino Rush Hour"

I can only imagine now, at certain times of the year and certain times of the day, it might be called "Camino Grid Lock"

Nothing to fear about waking alone

 

[Mark Lee]

I don't think there is any reason to panic or carry pepper spray, which can harm you as much as the bad dude if you spray it in the wind.

Simply walk with a buddy in this area until the bad guys have been caught.
Just like you would if you were walking in any remote area in the USA.

Having trained with pepper spray (OC capsicum 5-10%). Carried pepper spray on duty. Been sprayed with the stuff during training and having sprayed it on an individual and also having been the recipient of unintended spraying from a fellow cop who was spraying a suspect I was fighting, I can say without a doubt it's good stuff. Shuts me down instantly. If you carry it and do have to use it, spray for the eyes/forehead and run like hell. Oh, and as Annie mentioned, don't spray against the wind.

 

[fiona99]

Hi can someone tell me what time is first light now In Spain it's about 6am here in Ireland. I think some of the best advice is in connection with walk early walk with the wave the later in the day one leaves it is likely that later means less people.
Thanks in advance
Rita

Hi I have been leaving about 645am it is just about light and lots in front and behind of me....you will know when people are leaving due to all the rustling going on. You will easily find someone to walk with of if you want to walk alone just keep people in sight either in front or behind you....the Camino is busier than I expected it to be now so think it can only get busier. You will be fine...if you feel uneasy just wait for someone to catch you up....everyone is very friendly.....I have walked with a German and a French woman who had very litlle English and I had very little of their languages but we still had great fun....

 

[loveandgratitude]

Confirmed: pepper spray is illegal to carry in Spain, as another commenter pointed out.

Pepper spray is LEGAL in Spain for adults to carry as long as it contains less than 5% capsaicin. This information is readily and widely available on the internet as are the specific Spanish laws.

 

[javaqueen601]

I'll start walking in Astorga June 11. I am not letting fear drive me away from this special place I have dreamed of going to. I live in Denver and crime happens all the time. Just have to be aware.I am planning to walk with others.I hear you find your 'Camino family" as you walk.Things will be fine.The authorities may have even caught the perpetrators by the time some of us arrive. No need to get bent out of shape. This will be an awesome journey!

 

[grayland]

A post was deleted

Again...please only post facts that are known.
Rumors and speculation will be deleted.

 

[Roseness]

Hey, thanks.

Im walking cf alone in June. Was wondering if any groups or anyone will be in this area mid June so i can walk with someone??

Thanks

Hi Ellie....my 20year old son is arriving in SJPP on the 15th June, if you happen to bump into him, he's a good young man and very sensible. His name is Alex, he is also doing it alone.
Buen Camino xx

Thank you Ivar for the information.....I truly hope everyone who does the Camino has a safe n enjoyable journey through to Santiago!
Rose

 

[Zuze]

Solo female beginning in late July. I'd very much like to see a separate thread for solo females starting in the next few months so that we can ensure we all have a plan B to keep safe.

Hi OttawaHeather,

Our paths will probably cross more than once, judging from your planned date of departure. But, as has been said time and time again, I expect you will meet many other, supportive pilgrims from the big pilgrim family, so I think it won't be a problem, and especially now that we are all aware of what's happening. In the light of recent events, as reports have been emerging from other places on the camino and on other routes, I have finally started self-defence training, and feeling much more self-assured only after a couple sessions. Perhaps something for you to consider as well to get a bit closer to that peace of mind. See you on the camino!

Z

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The latest media article:

http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2015/05/21/555cad2746163f85388b4595.html

 

[tortuga bob]

I apologize if this subject has been discussed but the whistles built into the sternum straps of many backpacks are, for all practical purposes, useless. Buy yourself a whistle like the ones used at sporting events. You can get metal or plastic whistles. String it around your neck on a short, easy to access lanyard. Keep it outside your shirt or coat. If you don't use hiking poles or a staff consider them. On most hiking poles and some staffs there is a lanyard. The purpose is to keep you from dropping it. A second purpose can be to keep someone from taking it out of your hand. Use these items as defensive weapons against aggressive dogs and two-legged snakes. My favorite staffs are not the lightest ones but those having diameters of around 3/4 of an inch and cut from a dense wood. Use a staff that is as long as you need to aid your walk but short enough to swing hard and fast.

 

[VNwalking]

Thanks, Bob, very practical advice.
Two legged snakes...such a wonderful expression, though a bit hard on the snakes.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I take crimes and criminals seriously, and I am not lacking in compassion for victims, but I am amazed at the fear I see here.
The Camino de Santiago is one of the safest places on earth, even if you figure in the two unrelated events that have everyone so stirred up. If a woman disappeared, and another woman was accosted by strangers in a place nearby within a month, in just about any place in North America or Western Europe, it probably wouldn't even make the B section of the paper.
I think people are wound-up because we've come to imagine the Camino as a lovely Neverland where fear, crime, and death dare not occur... but sadly, the Camino is still part of Planet Earth, complete with creeps, accidents, cops, and unsolved crimes.
IMHO, Everyone needs to calm the hell down. The camino has survived worse.
Keep on walking. St. James, protect us.

 

[jerbear]

I am with Reb. Let it rest. Stop giving the issue power. Trust God and walk......Buen camino!

 

[amorfati1]

I take crimes and criminals seriously, and I am not lacking in compassion for victims, but I am amazed at the fear I see here.
The Camino de Santiago is one of the safest places on earth, even if you figure in the two unrelated events that have everyone so stirred up. If a woman disappeared, and another woman was accosted by strangers in a place nearby within a month, in just about any place in North America or Western Europe, it probably wouldn't even make the B section of the paper.
I think people are wound-up because we've come to imagine the Camino as a lovely Neverland where fear, crime, and death dare not occur... but sadly, the Camino is still part of Planet Earth, complete with creeps, accidents, cops, and unsolved crimes.
IMHO, Everyone needs to calm the hell down. The camino has survived worse.
Keep on walking. St. James, protect us.

AMEN to that . on all counts . thank you Rebecca.

 

[VNwalking]

Reb, I honestly wouldn't have had the courage (or vocabulary) to say it straight, as you did, but can't like your post enough. Totally agree.
Thank you.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I am with Reb. Let it rest. Stop giving the issue power. Trust God and walk......Buen camino!

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you, Reb!

 

[Anniesantiago]

Everyone needs to calm the hell down. The camino has survived worse.
Keep on walking. St. James, protect us.

Thank you! Thank you ! Thank you Reb!

 

[CaminoDebrita]

I take crimes and criminals seriously, and I am not lacking in compassion for victims, but I am amazed at the fear I see here.
The Camino de Santiago is one of the safest places on earth, even if you figure in the two unrelated events that have everyone so stirred up. If a woman disappeared, and another woman was accosted by strangers in a place nearby within a month, in just about any place in North America or Western Europe, it probably wouldn't even make the B section of the paper.
I think people are wound-up because we've come to imagine the Camino as a lovely Neverland where fear, crime, and death dare not occur... but sadly, the Camino is still part of Planet Earth, complete with creeps, accidents, cops, and unsolved crimes.
IMHO, Everyone needs to calm the hell down. The camino has survived worse.
Keep on walking. St. James, protect us.

Yep.

Nicely put, as always.

 

[ccmranger]

Thank you Reb. We needed this!

 

[Castilian]

Civil defence increases surveillance on (an area of) the Camino de Santiago:

http://www.elnortedecastilla.com/le...il-intensifica-vigilancia-20150521212743.html

 

[ThisIsSpain]

Yes, Reb ..... you have put it better than in several of my diatribes!

Enjoy your day - mine is special. It's 5 years to the day since I set out on a 5000km cycle ride. I was left for dead by a hit and run driver (4 hours unconscious in a ditch) lost my entire life's possessions in the storage centre fire, was chased three times by yobs and pushed off my bike by some kids from their car. Trip of my life and would do it all again tomorrow if I was healthy enough.... and before anybody screams SPAIN ..... it was the UK.

Life happens ........and "Yay, though I walk through the valley of death ....... "and the first lines of Abide with me - those thoughts were never far from me!

Thanks, Reb. WISE words!

 

[alexwalker]

Rebekah is simply spot on. Calm down. If you still have fears, team up. But no need.

 

[cher99840]

Rebekah is simply spot on. Calm down. If you still have fears, team up. But no need.

Hi Alex. Haven't seen you lately. Are you still in Spain?

 

[Cailin O Eire]

Yes I agree with you Rebekah, it was beginning to feel a bit like the rabbit caught In headlights scenario, so dazed by the headlights that that's all he could see! When in actual fact if he turned around on three other sides there was alternatives. Just like here, let's try look at the positives of which there are many and pray for safe journeys, isn't that all we should ever do in all aspects of life anyway.
Buen Camino everyone

 

[alexwalker]

Hi Alex. Haven't seen you lately. Are you still in Spain?

Just home. Woman happy, at least. Will make a post when I can find out how to.... For now, I am very happy that 2 of my camino friends, one from Frances and the other from VdlP, met this afternoon on the Portuguese and realized we were common friends! How good can that be? The world is indeed a small place.

And I didn't see anything abnormal from Astorga and on: All was peace and quiet. But I sincerely hope that the mystery of Denise solves: It is a sad story. Walk this stretch with company, methinks.

A picture of dear friends cheering for me after they found out we were all common friends. Life is good.



Edit; I should perhaps mention; It is such a beautiful experience to join, old and young, in this adventure called the Camino. Age disappears; what is left is the common feeling of what we are really doing, and our common joy and cameraderie. Just look at the picture: 23 and 70 years old buddies. And I am 61. Best buddies in the world. What a beautiful display of friendship across all ages and boundaries, performed on the Camino?

The Camino has reinforced my belief in young people: They get better all the time. They just need a helping word or two from the wisest of us. You know the saying?:

"Good decisions come from experience. Experience comes from bad decisions.".

 

[domigee]

Thank you Rebekah

 

[javaqueen601]

Love what Reb said!

 

[cher99840]

.
You know the saying?:
"Good decisions come from experience. Experience comes from bad decisions.".

I've never heard the saying, but I like it and will "borrow" it. Welcome home.

 

[amorfati1]

Yes I agree with you Rebekah, it was beginning to feel a bit like the rabbit caught In headlights scenario, so dazed by the headlights that that's all he could see! When in actual fact if he turned around on three other sides there was alternatives. Just like here, let's try look at the positives of which there are many and pray for safe journeys, isn't that all we should ever do in all aspects of life anyway.
Buen Camino everyone

may your feet be happy feet whenever they touch the ground on your next camino and be not deterred .... proceed with confidence while keeping common sense in your orbit and you will be well.
headlights & rabbits have their place, fear has a purpose too ... but lets not be captured by either of them, as you so well pointed out too.
wish i had a spiffy quote to add about all this - but only an old bumpersticker comes to mind from a local clothing store here: "Choose Love, not Fear" -
very best wishes, c

 

[CaminoDebrita]

may your feet be happy feet whenever they touch the ground on your next camino and be not deterred .... proceed with confidence while keeping common sense in your orbit and you will be well.
headlights & rabbits have their place, fear has a purpose too ... but lets not be captured by either of them, as you so well pointed out too.
wish i had a spiffy quote to add about all this - but only an old bumpersticker comes to mind from a local clothing store here: "Choose Love, not Fear" -
very best wishes, c

Here's a spiffy quotation I read in a "Dear Abby" column: follow the instructions on the mayonnaise jar--Keep Cool, but Don't Freeze!!

 

[Angelo]

Rebekah's post surely set everything on the right perspective. Well said. Thank you!
Buen Camino!

 

[Singingheart]

Please don't carry pepper spray.
That is SUCH overkill.

People, this is ONE tiny 12 mile (+/-) section of a FIVE HUNDRED MILE LONG Camino where all you need to do is walk with a buddy or group for a few kilometers. There have been no reports of any problems anywhere else along the route.

I live in Portland, Oregon.
There were 3 gang related shootings here Wednesday night.
Several people were killed.
I'm still walking to the park today and I'm not afraid of getting shot.

Was there violence in the town where you live last week?

Please put this into perspective.

Thank you, Annie. I'm not afraid. I'm going in Sept.-Oct., but it's a comfort to have the perspective of someone experienced as you are. And the city where I live, St. Louis, is one of the most violent in the nation. I love following all of what you share. Thank you.

 

[amorfati1]

Here's a spiffy quotation I read in a "Dear Abby" column: follow the instructions on the mayonnaise jar--Keep Cool, but Don't Freeze!!

spot-ON
thanks -

 

[Dinkydi]

Hi Cindy, I leave Victoria, BC Sept 21 for Madrid, but will stay over one night then on to Pamplona for another night, then to SJdP to purchase poles & poncho, then one more night….so looks like I would start my walk approx Sept 25, all of October and a couple of days in Nov. I see you're from Col; my daughter lives near 'The Springs'. Thanks for your post.

Hi Maggie I'm leaving with a group from Australia and arriving barcelona 21 sept, sleeping near roncevalles 22 sept and starting to walk from SJDP 23 , might see you along the way buen camino x

 

[Cailin O Eire]

may your feet be happy feet whenever they touch the ground on your next camino and be not deterred .... proceed with confidence while keeping common sense in your orbit and you will be well.
headlights & rabbits have their place, fear has a purpose too ... but lets not be captured by either of them, as you so well pointed out too.
wish i had a spiffy quote to add about all this - but only an old bumpersticker comes to mind from a local clothing store here: "Choose Love, not Fear" -
very best wishes, c

Thanks Much, tomorrow week I'll be in St Jean looking forward to the adventure.
Rita

 

[movinmaggie]

Hi Maggie I'm leaving with a group from Australia and arriving barcelona 21 sept, sleeping near roncevalles 22 sept and starting to walk from SJDP 23 , might see you along the way buen camino x

I'll remember your name….safe journey. Buen camino

 

[VNwalking]

Very best wishes for a buen Camino, Rita!!

 

[PaulCat]

Hey, thanks.

Im walking cf alone in June. Was wondering if any groups or anyone will be in this area mid June so i can walk with someone??

Thanks

I'm planning to start walking from St. Jean on June 1. Don't know where I'll be come mid June, but If I'm in the area, you are more than welcome to join.

 

[Elizabethanne]

Would be great if we were to meet up around this area and walk together to get past it…..but I don't start my walk (SJdP) until approx Sept 23/24 and all of October; few days in November...

Hi Maggie,
I also start walking from SJDP on approx these dates. Maybe we will meet up at dome stage.

 

[movinmaggie]

Hi Maggie,
I also start walking from SJDP on approx these dates. Maybe we will meet up at dome stage.

Hi Elizabeth, that's two names I will remember now who are walking at that time. But should I not meet up with either of you,
I honestly have no concerns. I have travelled to India for the past nine years on my own as a volunteer; if I can survive that, I can survive anything.
For as long as I can remember, I have felt 'protected. There is a higher purpose for this journey.

 

[jasmine2015]

Would be great if we were to meet up around this area and walk together to get past it…..but I don't start my walk (SJdP) until approx Sept 23/24 and all of October; few days in November...

Hi Maggie, I will arrive in SJPP from Australia on Sept 26 and will start walk on Sept 28. My daughter has been worried about the attack and the missing pilgrim so I would love to meet up with another pilgrim to walk together.