Was Mick Right?........Was Mick Wrong?

[gerardcarey]

Those folks with ‘Sleep Apnea’ use them.
The machine thing they have to plug in. CPAP wikipedia tells me.
They need a plug near their bunk.
If they use it presumably they won't 'kick the bucket' during the night.

Anyway, our little walking group were first arrivals outside the Albergue at San Juan de Ortega.
We sat along the wooden seat that ran from the front door along the outside wall.
The queue had grown to fifteen+ when up walks a bloke carrying an CPAP machine.
He stands near the door chatting to me and my walking companions.
The pilgrim line gradually lengthens over the next 1/2 hour or so.
He continues chatting.
Eventually the hospitalero rolls up and unbolts the door.
We all pick up our packs and shuffle closer to the door, as does the CPAP bloke.
“Oi!' says Mick, my Irish companion, to the CPAP bloke, “Where the hell do you think you are going? If you want a bed here tonight you'd better join the end of the queue, like everybody else”.
I was stunned into an embarrassed silence.
As was the CPAP bloke, who wandered off lugging his machine.
“Hell Mick, you're a bit tough”, I said.
“He had his chance to get a decent place in the queue, but he fronted up, deliberately pushing in front of people, expecting preferential treatment”, replied Mick.
“He aint gonna get it, not when I'm around anyway…….. If you had his complaint would you do that?”
“Probably not”, I replied, “but those folks with the oxygen mask on, gasping away, well they look like they are on their last legs don't they?”
“That's exactly what he's was playing on. Well he's not on his last legs and he was just bloody rude”.

Was Mick Right?........Was Mick Wrong?

 

[dougfitz]

Mick (I hope he is fictional) is wrong on at least two counts, but I suspect you already feel that anyhow:

1. I would have thought its was up to the hospitalero to decide whether a pilgrim would be given a bed as a priority over others, not your friend Mick. Even if it was only to ensure that they had a bed close to an electric power outlet, I still think that is a matter for the hospitalero, even though I would hope that other pilgrims would move if needed without the intervention of the hospitalero.
2. Mick has no way of knowing how severe a person's sleep apnoea is just by looking at them. In some cases, it might be possible for someone to forego using their CPAP machine for a few days or even a few weeks, but in others, they should be using the machine every night. Mick would not be able to judge.

I don't think its wrong for someone suffering from an ongoing medical condition to seek preferential treatment. That is a personal decision. Would it have made any difference if he had stated his intention earlier?

 

[Magwood]

?..... Would it have made any difference if he had stated his intention earlier?

Yes, I think absolutely it would have made a difference if the guy had been upfront about his intentions. Most of us would be happy for someone with a specific need to have preferential treatment whether or not they announced it in advance, and I would expect he would have been catered for whatever his position in the queue. Sadly however queuing can give people proprietorial emotions about their 'place' - and the 'camino spirit' doesn't always shine through.

 

[MendiWalker]

Are we tourists on a cheap holiday in sunny Spain or pilgrims ?
I think the guy with the CPAP machine falls into what the rules for the public allergies states under point number 1.

http://camino.xacobeo.es/normas-de-utilizacion-de-la-red-de-albergues

Buen Camino!

 

[docbb]

I don't think the issue is right vs wrong. Kind vs unkind seems more appropriate. As one who toted my CPAP with me, I also lugged along a 3.5 rechargeable battery which I only had to use twice. I never jumped to the front of the line, but, when my turn came I would request a bunk near an electric outlet. My request was always honored, and I don't think (or at least I hope not) I offended anyone. A few people told me the soft whir of the CPAP helped them get to sleep. I hope so. Offensive behavior can happen anywhere, and it seems like both Mick and the CPAP user had an opportunity to be more kind and thoughtful.

 

[wayfarer]

I would be more in line with your thinking docbb, a little respect and consideration on both sides was called for. If that person had been carrying oxygen or was incapacitated in some other way I would not have a problem with them going in front of me with the permission of those behind. I think it should be up to the hospitalero to have sorted that problem but I also have no time for rudeness, it could have been handled better.

 

[pbucilla]

If the Camino provides lessons for perogrinos as they walk, I wonder if this wasn't a lesson being presented, for all of those involved. Maybe there were lessons in compassion, judgement, entitlement, advocacy, kindness, anger, expectations and love. Or then again, perhaps this was just about tired pilgrims needing a bed.

 

[Olivares]

Mick was not the only one "missing the boat" on this one. All, including the man with the machine, the Hospitalero, Mick, and the one telling the story could had done better. Let me explain:

-- The man with the CPAC machine should had explained his condition and asked for special consideration from the folks already on the line. He was rude for perhaps assuming that there was no need to ask. He created the situation.

-- The Hospitalero unbolts the door and leave all to their own; many albergues the Hospitalero "greets" (which is what the name hospitalero implies) and sets the ground rules. By not having a short briefing to set this at the onset, he allow others to state the rules.

-- Mick was rude and wrong for speaking on behalf of the people in line. Mick could only speak for himself.

-- the man telling the story is wrong for been stunned into silence. If he thought the sick man should had gotten special treatment ahead on the line, he should had pulled him in front of him. Simple as that.

I have seen (and read...) this again and again-- people who get their "chest out" proclaiming intimate knowledge of the Camino Norms & Rules who then show little to no compassion for special circumstances and unavoidable choices. Yes, the man with the CPAC machine could have gone to Costa del Sol and be more comfortable, but he didn't. Whatever is making him trek 800 Kms with a CPAC machine in tow is his business.

 

[jstorybook]

Since you ask...Mick was wrong. First of all the Camino Pilgrimage has the tradition of treating people with special needs--illness, infirmity etc. with respect and tends to those needs. Since it was apparent that he had a CPAP machine it was obvious that he had special needs and so Mick was wrong if he could see that the man had special needs. If he didn't bring his CPAp machine people would whine about his snoring and their lack of insight of not bring ear plugs.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Just like being in New York City!

 

[KinkyOne]

As I understand the OP it was about the place in the growing queue not for the bunk near power outlet. So if the CPAP bloke wanted to skip the queue because of his "special" needs I think Mick was right. Although his reaction (words) was rude.

I agree with @Olivares that CPAP bloke created the situation. Maybe we don't have enough adequate information on this "incident", but he could ask waiting pilgrims to let him in as the first because of his condition and all of this wouldn't had happened.

 

[jstorybook]

Yet we already know he has a CPAP machine--Mick was ignorant, blind, was not able to through the use of intuition see that the man had needs --how did anyone know he had a CPAP machine? Should he shout I HAVE A CPAP MACHINE!! or wear a sign? or perhaps those who observed that the man had a CPAP machine and special needs might have Mick hold his tongue or maybe people do not observe the Camino tradition of helping people with special needs--maybe they will not observe the tradition of allowing elderly pilgrims to have the lower bunk? It is pretty relative to the observer and so maybe the question if other pilgrims should have said something to Mick--or maybe people just don't care. The man with the CPAP machine needed a electric outlet and it was obvious--maybe everyone is afraid of Mick? There are just too many variables--I was not there--but if I were I would have said: You know Mick he has a CPAP machine he needs an outlet--lets make sure he gets one.

 

[NicoZ]

You're sitting comfortably and see a pregenant woman. Do you stand and give her your seat?

A parent carrying an infant is behind you inline at the grocery store. What do you do?


Do people really need to be ASKED?

 

[jpflavin1]

Another negative/complaint story?????

I can only respond to the thread creator on this one. We only have the statement of one person here. While not questioning the accuracy of the writer here, there is always more than one side to each story. That said, I believe the writer, if so dismayed by the actions of Mick, could have given up his place in line to the CPAP person. One could then either go to the back of the queue or walk to the next available housing.

Just think how great this story would have been if someone gave up their spot in the queue for this or any other individual.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[jstorybook]

"Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.'"

 

[nellpilgrim]

I think a more powerful question would be "what would I/you have done in that situation?"......... and though I'd love to put my hand on my heart and say I would have been absolutely fine with it thinking back to how cold, wet and muddy I was by the time I got to San Juan de Ortega......I really can't . But now, thanks to this thread, I can at least say if find myself in that position I'll try and give myself 1 minute to load my brain before firing my mouth off.......

 

[Olivares]

You're sitting comfortably and see a pregenant woman. Do you stand and give her your seat?

A parent carrying an infant is behind you inline at the grocery store. What do you do?


Do people really need to be ASKED?

It is NOT about people needing to be asked, but about people assuming that others HAVE TO grant them with certain entitlements when in fact they are been granted special considerations. If the man with the CPAP machine stepped in the front of a queu of waiting pilgrims with not a word to anybody, he was rude and created a bad situation. Mick had a problem with that and Mick should had been the better person, allowed the man to step in front, and find a better time to say something...if it remained that important 10 minutes later (...which I bet it did not).

It is TOTALLY the right thing to do to allow a person with a special need to step ahead, but WHAT IF MICK suffered from Chronic Fatigue, or had a torn meniscus, or was suffering from a blinding migraine? NONE of those conditions would have been obvious to anybody yet HE had more of an emergemcy situation to be given prompt access to rest than the man with the CPAP machine. I know somebody who has extremely bad knees and cannot stand on his feet for more than 5 minutes. If a pregnant woman steps in the bus and he is sitting comfortably...HE should remain sitting comfortably!! Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear.

 

[Rosemaryk1]

It is NOT about people needing to be asked, but about people assuming that others HAVE TO grant them with certain entitlements when in fact they are been granted special considerations. If the man with the CPAP machine stepped in the front of a queu of waiting pilgrims with not a word to anybody, he was rude and created a bad situation. Mick had a problem with that and Mick should had been the better person, allowed the man to step in front, and find a better time to say something...if it remained that important 10 minutes later (...which I bet it did not).

It is TOTALLY the right thing to do to allow a person with a special need to step ahead, but WHAT IF MICK suffered from Chronic Fatigue, or had a torn meniscus, or was suffering from a blinding migraine? NONE of those conditions would have been obvious to anybody yet HE had more of an emergemcy situation to be given prompt access to rest than the man with the CPAP machine. I know somebody who has extremely bad knees and cannot stand on his feet for more than 5 minutes. If a pregnant woman steps in the bus and he is sitting comfortably...HE should remain sitting comfortably!! Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear.

Interesting post...Reality and the false perception of reality made by others as to what a person needs or even wants...like texting someone and it getting misinterpreted in the tone of the message.. a simple "I see you have a need, as I, how can we help each other?"

 

[jstorybook]

Interesting post...Reality and the false perception of reality made by others as to what a person needs or even wants...like texting someone and it getting misinterpreted in the tone of the message.. a simple "I see you have a need, as I, how can we help each other?"

amen

 

[jstorybook]

I wonder what language the man with the cpap machine spoke maybe he didn't understand what Oi! meant--I am not sure that I do--I might of left too if someone shouted something I didn't understand.

 

[wayfarer]

Time to give it a rest.

 

[SanFranLinda]

I haven't had the opportunity, yet, to walk the Camino Frances, so this may be a stupid question, but...

Why would someone be walking up to an albergue in the middle of the afternoon carrying a CPAP machine? Wouldn't you normally keep it tucked away in your pack until you needed it at bedtime?

It would seem to me, as Olivares speculated, he was expecting special consideration. I would think the better options would be to have gotten in the queue of about 15 pilgrims, then discussed with those in front of him his concerns over being assigned a bed near an outlet.

I don't feel either of the gentlemen acted in a very unselfish manner. But that's just my opinion...

 

[SanFranLinda]

I apologize Wayfarer. I think we were posting at the same time. Agreed...

 

[MendiWalker]

Perhaps the CPAP guy thought he had the right to enter first or at least speak to the hospitalero as he could come under point number one in the rules of the albergues.

Buen Camino!

 

[jstorybook]

Time to give it a rest.

Amen

 

[tyrrek]

Was the guy with Sleep Apnoea actually asleep at the time and in danger? Or could he have walked for another 40 mins or so to the next albergue? He sounds like a rogue to me!

 

[dougfitz]

Was the guy with Sleep Apnoea actually asleep at the time and in danger? Or could he have walked for another 40 mins or so to the next albergue? He sounds like a rogue to me!

Good questions to which there is no definitive answer. I have already asked whether this is fictional - a moot point on which to base a discussion, but have not had an answer. As a sufferer of mild sleep apnoea who normally uses a CPAP, I didn't carry mine on CF or St Olav's Way. I have medical advice that I will not suffer long term damage in those circumstances, although short term effects might present themselves. Other sufferers might not be so fortunate, and pretty much need to use their machines every night. I am not sure how we could be told apart.

Certainly for most days on the CF, I could have walked on should that have been necessary, but this is a detail that hasn't been presented in the original post. I think I might have been inclined to reserve my spot in the queue and then explained to those ahead of me that I was keen to be given a bed near a powerpoint so that I could use my CPAP machine. The compelling argument is that this would guarantee that I wouldn't snore, which I otherwise might. Even Mick might have been swayed - he seems self-centred enough for an appeal to his own comfort. Again, these are not details presented in the scenario we have been give - merely my interpolations.

 

[gerardcarey]

I have already asked whether this is fictional - a moot point on which to base a discussion, but have not had an answer.

Sorry bout that. Down with flu bug, tho I usually computer only a once a day anyway.

Thanks to all for their considered contributions.
True story.
I'm absolutely sure Mick's concern and complaint was only to do with the queue situation.
Only a fool would question our CPAP bloke's right to special attention on approaching the hospitalero at reception.
He had ample opportunity to obtain a place in the queue where his needs could have been easily addressed but he chose not to.
Mick may well have been stewing for some time about the situation and therefore about the impending altercation. He perhaps spoke more sternly than was required but that is just splitting hairs IMO.

After getting over my initial surprise at the turn of events I found I agreed with Mick.
If one behaves badly expect a stern remonstration.
Some of us are not cheek turners.

Regds
Gerard

 

[piogaw]

i was not there so i will withhold judgement. however maybe it is a big misunderstanding between the pilgrim with the cpap machine and mike or a language problem of communication.

where are the compassion, tolerance, kindness and understanding on the path of the camino that i have seen on previous caminos?

 

[MendiWalker]

i was not there so i will withhold judgement. however maybe it is a big misunderstanding between the pilgrim with the cpap machine and mike or a language problem of communication.

where are the compassion, tolerance, kindness and understanding on the path of the camino that i have seen on previous caminos?

Missing.

Buen Camino!

 

[gerardcarey]

where are the compassion, tolerance, kindness and understanding on the path of the camino that i have seen on previous caminos?

I encountered it everywhere along the way, as I'm sure do most others.
But I will not be blind to other behaviour.
Us travellers of the Way are not a collection of perfect individuals.
As the poet John Dryden's said of Chaucer's eclectic pilgrims "Here is God's plenty."
Love em all.

 

[Pattii]

I think the main thing is that this was a learning experience for the people who experienced it.

It is never ok to be unkind...I don't care for what reason. You can speak strong words with a kind attitude. Being disabled or having a special need puts an amount of pressure on the person that those without disabilities could not possibly imagine. My feeling is is that this man was a little worried with the amount of people lining up that he may not be able to plug his machine in and therefore not be able to breathe properly. If Mike was aware of that then he was being quite selfish in his attitude. The thing is...when you think about it. It should not have bothered Mike at all. The man could been fit in behind you and Mike and then honestly it would have been the people behind you that should have said something if they were uncomfortable about it. And from what I am reading they weren't bothered by it. I suppose it could be chalked up to a bad day or poor manners...but one of the biggest things I think we are to learn on the Camino is how to be brothers and sisters...fellow pilgrims on this journey that takes us deep into Spirit. Perhaps the lesson here is how you handled it. It bothered you or you wouldn't say anything. I think what bothered you most is NOT saying anything because that speaks directly to who you are and your ability to speak out for what you believe is truth. So I ask you back was Mike wrong or right...based on your gut feeling about what the Truth is.

Had I been there I would have probably told Mike he was acting like a jack ass and invited the guy to take my spot and if it was a problem with the people behind me for me to stay there too then I would have gone to the back of the line simply to prove a point and let Mike be on his own if he wanted to behave like a creep. That way no one could have said anything and it would have been Mike in the spotlight instead of the poor man with sleep apnea. And Kudo's for him for bringing his machine ...He was saving the whole place from dealing with his personal snoring and that is a very kind thing to do.

 

[gerardcarey]

I think the main thing is that this was a learning experience for the people who experienced it.

It is never ok to be unkind...I don't care for what reason. You can speak strong words with a kind attitude. Being disabled or having a special need puts an amount of pressure on the person that those without disabilities could not possibly imagine. My feeling is is that this man was a little worried with the amount of people lining up that he may not be able to plug his machine in and therefore not be able to breathe properly. If Mike was aware of that then he was being quite selfish in his attitude. The thing is...when you think about it. It should not have bothered Mike at all. The man could been fit in behind you and Mike and then honestly it would have been the people behind you that should have said something if they were uncomfortable about it. And from what I am reading they weren't bothered by it. I suppose it could be chalked up to a bad day or poor manners...but one of the biggest things I think we are to learn on the Camino is how to be brothers and sisters...fellow pilgrims on this journey that takes us deep into Spirit. Perhaps the lesson here is how you handled it. It bothered you or you wouldn't say anything. I think what bothered you most is NOT saying anything because that speaks directly to who you are and your ability to speak out for what you believe is truth. So I ask you back was Mike wrong or right...based on your gut feeling about what the Truth is.

Had I been there I would have probably told Mike he was acting like a jack ass and invited the guy to take my spot and if it was a problem with the people behind me for me to stay there too then I would have gone to the back of the line simply to prove a point and let Mike be on his own if he wanted to behave like a creep. That way no one could have said anything and it would have been Mike in the spotlight instead of the poor man with sleep apnea. And Kudo's for him for bringing his machine ...He was saving the whole place from dealing with his personal snoring and that is a very kind thing to do.

Hey Pats. I believe Mick was right. I believe our CPAP man was being unkind as you put it, rude as I would put it. And you are correct, it's never ok to be unkind or rude. In fact it deserves a strong response.
As to my involvement. The altercation was all over in 15 seconds. Being rather surprised I then discussed it with Mick and found I agreed with him. Case closed for me.
Indeed much Kudos to our CPAP man, and any man or woman for lugging their machine along the way.
I would disagree that we are on this journey to learn how to be brothers and sisters. You may be, I aint. I have decided by now how best to treat my fellow man. I am also not interested in any journey that takes me deep into the spirit, but the very best of luck to those who so wish.

What I will say is that to witness this Camino with it's ability to gather together such diverse races, and sometimes religions, into harmonious and open-hearted families was one of the highlights of my life. Tremendously enjoyable and life affirming for this confirmed atheist.
Thank you for your post.
Kind regds
Gerard

ps. Now Enough Already Everyone. Lets put it to bed.

 

[TheTinkerBell]

One more post from me, if I may??? Thanks!

LOL!! gerardcarey, you're the rogue here. It was a trick question all along, ya boy ya!!! Sure, doesn't EVERYONE know that an Irishman is always right even when he's wrong!!!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

it's never ok to be unkind or rude. In fact it deserves a strong response.

In the U.S. that strong response can be from someone with a concealed weapon carry permit. Disrespect someone here, and it can cost you your life. Some think that is over-reaction. Obviously, others don't. Such is the nature of an opinion. It does not need to be fact-based, and often isn't. CPAPman could have handled it differently. If it wasn't his first day on the Camino, he probably should have learned already the right way to get accommodation, both from fellow pilgrims and hospitaleros. Still, his lack of grace does not require the rest of us to act like jerks. We choose to do that!! We can choose to act with grace, too.

 

[KentuckyJay]

In the U.S. that strong response can be from someone with a concealed weapon carry permit. Disrespect someone here, and it can cost you your life. Some think that is over-reaction. Obviously, others don't. Such is the nature of an opinion. It does not need to be fact-based, and often isn't. CPAPman could have handled it differently. If it wasn't his first day on the Camino, he probably should have learned already the right way to get accommodation, both from fellow pilgrims and hospitaleros. Still, his lack of grace does not require the rest of us to act like jerks. We choose to do that!! We can choose to act with grace, too.

But as an old and experienced long distance hiker, I firmly believe that most people who choose to experience life on the trail would also choose to be accommodating rather than confrontational. I just have not met too many jerks on the trail.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I just have not met too many jerks on the trail.

I agree. However, with nearly 200,000 pilgrims and a hundred different languages and cultures, there are more places for friction on the Camino Frances than, say, the Appalachian Trail. It is easier to be irritated if you let yourself be.

 

[dougfitz]

Mick may well have been stewing for some time about the situation and therefore about the impending altercation. He perhaps spoke more sternly than was required but that is just splitting hairs IMO.

This makes me think that Mick is wrong for a third reason. It would appear that he had ample time to raise his concerns before it reached the point described in the scenario described by @gerardcarey. Stewing on it was wrong when dealing with it earlier could have achieved a resolution with less aggravation. Sensible discussion might have replaced Irish anger.

I also think that in not dealing with it earlier, Mick and the other people in the queue have given the man carrying the CPAP a false expectation that they will allow him to enter first. I find it difficult to think of his behaviour as rude if no-one has objected. The rudeness is, if anything, with those in the queue who sustained this false impression and then allowed Mick to browbeat someone.

Further, if he had known that this was not the case, the man carrying the CPAP would have had more time to find a place in another albergue if he had felt that necessary. Making a deliberate choice to stay in a long queue at an albergue is one thing, being lulled into a false sense of security by the behaviour of all the people in the queue is quite another.

I'm sorry, Gerrard, I cannot find anything in this that justifies Mick's behaviour, and quite a lot that says that it was wrong. My view simply is that if he wasn't prepared to deal with the issue when the man went to the head of the queue, Mick had lost any moral right to deal with it later.

Regards,

 

[annelise]

I am somehow troubled about this discussion, the reason being that two years ago ago I had to have a full shoulder implant.
Since then – after rehabilitation - I have always wanted to go back to the Camino, but am now not sure whether I would wish to do so. I would hate confrontations with fellow pilgrims, but the fact is that I would certainly not wish the risk of having to climb up to an upper berth (and getting down again).
Annelise

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Wherever groups of people are, there will be conflict. That´s a fact of life. The camino is not a magic wonderland where everyone is sweet and kind, at least not all the time.

As a hospitalera I have dealt with these kinds of troubles. Usually I let people who are waiting outside sort themselves out, I have enough problems inside to deal with already. If someone has special needs, unless he is falling over or otherwise very ill this moment, he can wait in the queue and let me know about his needs when his turn comes. I might ask another pilgrim to switch his bunk so the incapacitated person can be accommodated.

I find most pilgrims are very good at accommodating one another. Rudeness and short tempers happen when people are tired and achey and waiting. It´s a given.
That´s what grace is for.

 

[stevenjarvis]

I am somehow troubled about this discussion, the reason being that two years ago ago I had to have a full shoulder implant.
Since then – after rehabilitation - I have always wanted to go back to the Camino, but am now not sure whether I would wish to do so. I would hate confrontations with fellow pilgrims, but the fact is that I would certainly not wish the risk of having to climb up to an upper berth (and getting down again).
Annelise

Annelise - don't be put off by this or any other discussion. This forum has a rarefied atmosphere far removed from reality. The written word lacks the nuances of human interaction. The negative and the confrontational often result in lengthy discussion which can focus on the worst of human behavior. However there are far more examples of the very best experiences all over this forum.

 

[Pattii]

I stand by my statement about Mick being wrong. NO one has the right to make another feel badly...no matter what. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you....GOLDEN rule for a reason. Even if Mick wanted to confront him making him feel badly and screaming and yelling at him just showed what a cad Mick was. It didn't make the situation better...it just made Mick feel better to get his anger out about people butting in line. He obviously has an issue. Sometimes a quiet kind word works wonders...and I agree totally that if he was stewing on it ...he was just getting revved up to purposely explode. NO one should have to deal with another's rage especially if its purposeful.

Regardless of why someone pushed ahead in the line...it was Micks responsibility to handle HIS OWN issues...his anger about that...in a positive and productive way. There is no excuse whatsoever for being an ass. No matter what...and screaming at someone and pointing them out and pointing a finger in a loud aggressive way is being an ass. I don't care what your issue is...where you are travelling or what your nationality is. Being mean is horrible. I don't think the guy with the disability was trying to be mean...he may even have been wrong to try to get upfront but being mean is just unacceptable. THAT is the difference between the guy that might have been rude to try to but in and Mick who was just taking out all his anger and frustration about a reoccurring issue that obviously bothers him a great deal on one person.
I would tell Mick to buy a ladder...get over himself...how much in the light of eternity did letting disabled buddy be in that line at that spot change Micks world?? really??

 

[gerardcarey]

I'm sorry, Gerrard, I cannot find anything in this that justifies Mick's behaviour, and quite a lot that says that it was wrong. My view simply is that if he wasn't prepared to deal with the issue when the man went to the head of the queue, Mick had lost any moral right to deal with it later.Regards,

Fair point Doug. While I would never have handled the situation as forcefully as Mick did, I do believe it was a situation that needed to be handled. I simply defend his right to do so.
Regds

 

[gerardcarey]

Annelise - don't be put off by this or any other discussion. This forum has a rarefied atmosphere far removed from reality. The written word lacks the nuances of human interaction. The negative and the confrontational often result in lengthy discussion which can focus on the worst of human behavior. However there are far more examples of the very best experiences all over this forum.

Steven is without question correct Annelise. Although eliciting a lively reaction our discussion encompasses one small, unusual and relatively unimportant incident on the Camino. As one who is on his fifth hip may I assure you that efforts to cater for disability on the Camino are without parallel. Without exception I find hospitaleros and pilgrims helpful and kind to the needs of the disabled (and somewhat disabled).
Regds and Buen Camino!
Gerard

 

[StuartM]

I think it cuts both ways. Using your condition to gain advantage, as this sounds, is as wrong as anything else. It's all game theory, do you take a chance and act alone to gain a lot and risk a lot or do you co-operate to gain a little while risking a little. There are endless books on the subject.

I have a disabled friend who would probably have reacted as Mick did. He's the type of person that fights to not be treated specially.

No-one was right and no-one was wrong but I'm sure Mick probably voiced what a lot of people in the line were thinking.

 

[annelise]

Stuart, it is no attempt go gain any advantage. It is only an attempt to get a fair estimate of whether I will be able to walk on the camino next year as a 69 year old. – And one of my concerns after my shoulder rehabilitation was to ask my doctor about my new shoulder (with a view to continuing my camino) - and I have a letter from him about my shoulder condition. Maybe someone around here could translate it into Spanish.

Two years ago at 66, I walked from Roncesvalles to Astorga, and if you have done that you will know that this is not a bad feat for an elderly unfit woman.

However, I would then wish to start a bit before Astorga and hopefully visit Rebecca.

Annelise

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Sleep apnea and a CPAP machine are more like asthma than a shoulder replacement. It takes a very expansive view of "disability" to include a CPAP machine...

 

[Pattii]

Sleep apnea and a CPAP machine are more like asthma than a shoulder replacement. It takes a very expansive view of "disability" to include a CPAP machine...

That is the most disturbing comment I have seen your write yet Falcon.

Ever met anyone with debilitating asthma or sleep apnea..?? I have.
I watched my brother almost die several times because his airways were so closed he was suffocating. I watched him have to sit out of sports and have a hard time walking because he couldn't breathe. I have watched how it has determined his life...all the choices that were denied him. But you say its not a disability.

I watched my dads brain slowly wither ending up with Alzheimer's because no one tho't it was a big deal that he couldn't breathe at night because of his snoring. It went untreated for years until his heath failed so much that he had to stop working. They diagnosed him with sleep apnea.
My dad farmed and worked with large machines all his life... Strong and able... I watched him singlehandedly cut down acres of wood with a chainsaw and axe to burn in our wood stove. Watched him work 12 hours a day 6 days a week. My father who could do anything was reduced to someone who can't remember his own family. It was devastating to watch him shrink to the man he became. And when they finally diagnosed him for Alzheimer's the first thing the Dr. asked was...does he have sleep apnea?...because it is a major contributor to a dying/damaged Hippocampus. But you say its not a disability.

I watched as my brother and his wife thought they were going to lose their baby and the agony of trying to deal with the repercussions...each time my neice was rushed to hospital to try and get her airways open due to chronic and debilitating asthma. But you say its not a disability.

You could say Diabetes isn't a disability too then hey? Yet my little hobbit mother can't feel anything in her feet yet has excruciating pain through them constantly that makes her unable to walk. She has had 3 heart attacks and not because of her own doing. I watched her cry with her fingers bruised up and swollen trying to get blood from them for her for testing and then not be able to hold a pot to cook for my dad because of the intense pain. Watched as she slowly had to do less and less because her pancreas doesn't work.

But hell its just diabetes. Its just asthma. Its just sleep apnea.... (wants to knock on your wooden head right now)

And certainly anything that makes one unable to do what a healthy body can do puts you in a position of being disabled. Some are chronic issues some are temporary but they are still disabilities. I don't think there are many people who are disabled that actually happily depend on that disability to make their life easier...which is implied here. Are you kidding?? lol.

Unless you deal with said disability you have no bloody clue as to how hard it is or if it is a viable disability. And if you do shame on your for saying it. Falcon do you personally have access to the all knowing list of what a disability is and is not? Maybe you could share the list with the rest of humanity. lmao. Can you not see how insensitive it is for you to ignorantly comment on someone's health or disability when they have to try twice as hard as the next guy to have 3/4 of the same quality of life as perhaps you do?

LOL do you actually think people like having to deal with all the extra shit (stuff the have to carry...meds...canes...crutches...wheelchairs...CPAP machines...ignorant and mean people teasing and commenting on their "retardedness" or telling them because they have an opinion that differs from them that they should take their meds) because they can't do what an abled body can do? Having a disability is frustrating and confusing and exhausting sometimes... and requires much more tho't in doing ANYTHING in life than it does for someone who doesn't have one. It takes guts and drive and a desire to live a normal life. Imagine having to carry oxygen around because without that tank you will suffocate...you think thats not troubling for the oxygen carrier?...you think there is not a huge fear inside them everytime they go out? The very thing you take for granted is taken away from them unless they do EXTRA to actually do what everyone else does without thinking...breathe. But you say its not a disability...

You have no idea what its like unless you are there. You can't know my life unless you walk in my shoes. You have no idea what my life has been like because of a disability...how could you possibly know...you don't live with it!


KUDOS on disabled people for doing it anyway...despite the fear and trepidation and the extra effort it takes to actually do it. And despite the fools who think you are faking it or trying to gain an extra footing or a place in line because of it. Not all of us want to be pointed out or shown favour because we have a disability. Some of us would rather be treated equally. But that doesn't give you the right to not notice that we do indeed struggle more than the average person sometimes.

This is not to say the guy with the machine was right to assume his place in line IF IN FACT THAT IS WHAT HE WAS DOING AS WE ONLY HAVE MICKS SIDE OF THE SITUATION...WE NEVER HEARD FROM THE DISABLED FELLA... But it doesn't give you the right to tell him that he doesn't have a viable disability cause you don't think its true. I have one word for that...Finisterra. The whole world believed it was the end of the world. The whole world was proven wrong by one guy with an open mind. And he was thought to be absolutely crazy. Lmao! (thinks about people watching the "insane" dude sailing off as they tisk tisk tisked him for being a lunatic....hahaha)

My advise.... unless you live with these conditions you have no right to comment on how much of a disability they are or are not.

 

[dougfitz]

Sleep apnea and a CPAP machine are more like asthma than a shoulder replacement. It takes a very expansive view of "disability" to include a CPAP machine...

Falcon, you might be correct that a person who is able to treat their obstructive sleep apnoea with CPAP will not suffer from its many debilitating effects, and for most practical purposes, can function quite normally. I could make exactly the same point about someone with a joint replacement, which also removes the disabling cause, or an asthmatic who has their condition under control. They will not be physically challenged while they can continue their treatment.

I doubt that you would advocate that an asthmatic would have to turn up at some check-point each morning run by a random selection of medically unqualified people who could decide whether or not to confiscate the asthmatic's medication for the day.

But that, in all its logical conclusion, is what Mick did in the scenario in the original post.

 

[Caplen]

Ooooo...... a dust-up between Falcon and Pattii! Pass the popcorn.
Couldn't happen to two "nicer" peregrinos.

 

[jpflavin1]

Where is Paul Harvey (deceased) when you need the rest of the story.

 

[vicrev]

Well said Patti........................Vicrev

 

[dougfitz]

Where is Paul Harvey (deceased) when you need the rest of the story.

Pardon my ignorance, but who was Paul Harvey?

 

[Pilgrim in training]

At some point during the half hour (chatting in the queue) and waiting for the hospitalero to open up - someone in the front of the group may have asked the man with the CPAP machine if he was intending to push in to the front of the queue. Alternatively he could have brought the subject up himself. That way a conversation can take place and expectations can be managed. Simple things like "I was wondering if you would mind?" .. "Is there something we can do to assist you?" or "I am going to go to the back of the queue now, when you get inside would you mind letting the manager know that I am here and I am seeking a bed next to a powerpoint please?" etc. The traveller with the CPAP machine didn't state his intention at all and it would have made it easier for others to show kindness and compassion if they had communicated better with each other.

 

[wayfarer]

One should never assume that their condition is more serious than anyone elses in any que. In any one que you could have a full range of ailments and who is to say which is more deserving of first place in that que.
The words "dead horse" and "flogging" come to mind now for this thread and getting personal with other members is neither helping the discussion or the forum.

 

[dougfitz]

Right wing American Broadcaster, had a regular feature called "the rest of the story" or similar , here you go... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Harvey

Thx. I'm still not sure that I understand the original reference, but I suppose it must mean something to those reading who are from the US.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I walked with Luis for a couple of weeks. He had only one leg, having lost the other in a car accident when he was about 18. In his mid-fifties he walked from SJPdP to Fisterra on Canadian crutches. He never asked for anything, though his fellow pilgrims did cede a lower bunk to him when one was not available. His arms were quite capable of mounting a top bunk, but the trip down was more abrupt! I am sure that he appreciated little kindnesses, but he did not need them. Crutches are inconvenient around a crowded pilgrim table, so he would readily agree to having a fellow pilgrim move them to a good location.

I have a CPAP machine which I don't take on caminos. I sleep better with it, but don't view it as a necessity. It is a lot of weight to carry for minimal benefit. It is important to keep them clean to avoid respiratory infections, and I have not seen the albergue facilities that would be amenable to proper hygiene. A laundry sink would serve if it had hot water, a stopper, and one brought the cleaning powder. Bed bugs would love the warmth of the motor chamber!

 

[vicrev]

As usual,with some subjects on this Forum,opinions are stated,points are made,people get fired up,the only real winners are intolerance & inconsideration. I thought the prime purpose of this Forum was to help prospective Pilgrims,not squabble & point score about other things...............PLEASE BE NICE.................KEEP HAPPY.........HAVE A LAUGH............................Vicrev..

 

[jpflavin1]

Pardon my ignorance, but who was Paul Harvey?

Paul Harvey was an American newscaster who used to tell a story on his show everyday. Then at the end of his show he would tell his Audience the rest of the story.

I guess only an older American crowd would know who He was. My point was is that this thread is built on the statement of one person. Yet we have gone on and on about Mick and beyond without really having all the facts of what transpired (the rest of the story). Some light humor.

If you want more information on Paul Harvey, I am sure you could Google or Wikipedia him.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[MendiWalker]

One should never assume that their condition is more serious than anyone elses in any que. In any one que you could have a full range of ailments and who is to say which is more deserving of first place in that que.
The words "dead horse" and "flogging" come to mind now for this thread and getting personal with other members is neither helping the discussion or the forum.

The hospitalero has the last word as he/she is the one who runs the albergue.

Buen Camino!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

If you want more information on Paul Harvey

Harvey was a high school classmate of my father in Tulsa, Oklahoma. When they held their 50th reunion, Harvey asked for an honorarium to appear. THAT is the rest of the story!

 

[jpflavin1]

Harvey was a high school classmate of my father in Tulsa, Oklahoma. When they held their 50th reunion, Harvey asked for an honorarium to appear. THAT is the rest of the story!

Did they pay it?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

No. He was the laughing stock of the reunion (which went on without him; lots of oil millionaires).

 

[wayfarer]

The hospitalero has the last word as he/she is the one who runs the albergue.

Buen Camino!

Totaly agree, goes without saying.

 

[dougfitz]

My point was is that this thread is built on the statement of one person. Yet we have gone on and on about Mick and beyond without really having all the facts of what transpired (the rest of the story). Some light humor.

Now I get it. I agree. I also wondered whether this was a moot - a scenario set up merely to generate discussion, but @gerardcarey replied that he described a real event.

That said, it has had all the hallmarks of a good moot, and if it has helped those participating or even just lurking to clarify their own understanding of the different sides taken in the discussion, I see that as a good outcome.

Regards,