Weaning myself from this forum

[Gailsie]

Somehow I have to learn to wean myself from this forum. I still am interested in keeping Denise and her family in my thoughts and checking in on the latest news. However, the many of the discussions on this forum that have resulted from her disappearance have become hostile and I find them very difficult to read. I am still hopefully able to walk another camino in the next few years so I want to keep up with camino news but I have to learn to step back from reading and responding to some of the threads and their posts.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

However, the many of the discussions on this forum that have resulted from her disappearance have become hostile and I find them very difficult to read.

You are not alone. Male trolls seem to have the upper hand, but don't give up. You can put the bad guys on your "Ignore" list and not have to read them in the list of responses to a thread. Give that a try before leaving!

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

[Ottawa123]

You can put the bad guys on your "Ignore" list and not have to read them in the list of responses to a thread

Good point. I have just blocked a few members as well. I find it very disingenuous when a member comments almost a dozen times on a thread, but rudely complains "are we done yet" when they have said all they want. Forums belong to ALL its members, and everyone should feel free to share. Or not.

I don't know why some are so unreceptive to others' opinions, but I find the hostility very offputting.

 

[amorfati1]

Somehow I have to learn to wean myself from this forum. I still am interested in keeping Denise and her family in my thoughts and checking in on the latest news. However, the many of the discussions on this forum that have resulted from her disappearance have become hostile and I find them very difficult to read. I am still hopefully able to walk another camino in the next few years so I want to keep up with camino news but I have to learn to step back from reading and responding to some of the threads and their posts.

Gailsie - quite understand the sentiment. i do.
and would also second falcons' suggestions of using the very spiffy 'ignore' function. does marvels ... really.
then the 'irksome and low-vibe posters/writers' will be duly ignored - just as for e.g. those 'flashers' ought to be ignored. (that's just my bias and how i acted when confronted w/ that deranged behaviour)
there always will be folks who use their thoughts/emotions as 'litter' and toss it about anywhere they fancy, even your "front yards". but even if they do, i shall continue to keep my front-yard rubbish free. no doing so, for me, would mean i sink to their level of "litter-comfort".
hope this makes sense?

please re-consider.
if all sober, level-headed and good hearted members/pilgrims would leave a fine forum as this (usually) is ... who will be left to convey to someone else of the spewing-litter-brigade: "buster, you are out of line" sort-of-message??

very best wishes --- buen camino --- in or outside of spain

 

[Gailsie]

I am not leaving just not checking it so often, hopefully

 

[Tincatinker]

@Gailsie , hang with us if you can. This forum has, is and always will be a good place for pilgrims to come and share. The sad and disturbing disappearance of Denise Thiem has come as a shock to some. Pilgrims and members have reacted in many ways and this has created a sometimes febrile atmosphere on the forum. Some things have been said that probably should not have been and ideas have been forwarded that even the poster on reflection might regret. Ivar and Moderators have been told what we should and should not do, have faced contrary assertions, and have tried only to apply the rules of the forum. Members, angry, anguished or aggrieved are, and should be, free to post within the rules.

Rage against the unknown and the unknowable is a human trait, not always expressed rationally or reasonably. Nevertheless the feelings and opinions expressed by members are their true and valid opinions.

We seem to be living in sad and strange times both for the Camino and for this forum but this too will pass. Posts suggest that inappropriate behaviour toward female pilgrims may be more prevalent than previously suspected. Under-reporting of such behaviour would be typical. Whether or not that is so it can only be hoped that the current levels of discussion ensure thaty any incident is reported to the authorities. Meanwhile we should all try to inform and advise, share information that can help to keep pilgrims safe and strive to manage the unhelpful and un-needed argument.

I might have quite an extensive ignore list if I wasn't a Mod. But I'd possibly miss that moment of clarity and articulated rage that would gift me a little more understanding of another soul. Buen Camino amigo.

 

[David]

I am sorry but I have missed the posts that have upset you. The thing is, it is an open forum and therefore there will be viewpoints that are different from yours, it is just th way forums are - and this one is run really well, superbly moderated. The loss of Denise is tragic, utterly tragic, but the truth is that the Camino is safe, especially so if pilgrims take precautions and that they remain aware that every garden has at least one serpent.

Draw a line 500 miles long through any country and imagine what crimes have been committed on that line - so, in balance, the Camino is safe, it is just life that is not safe.
Like many other males on here I find it upsetting when I read of females being targeted by predators - we don't like it you know, it rather angers us that there are such men out there. Hang in there Gailsie, it is a great forum, the best Camino forum on the internet. You can always report a post that upsets you - so hang in there with us.

Buen Camino

 

[Deleted member 22638]

Gailsie I'm sorry that having been a long standing member of the forum you are finding it tough going. I think we all take a break from time to time, and come back when ready,

David has said something that resonates with me. It is very difficult, embarrasing, shameful even, to read that female members of the forum have to consider and discuss their personal safety. I love my link to "new posts" and Ivar's daily email but recently it has become tough reading with threads such as:

• Action required to sexual harassment/ rape attempt on the Camino.
• Solo women walking Le Puy to Conques August 22nd to September 1st
• Don't want to be scared...
• Caution for female pilgrims around Boadilla del Camino
• Suggestion for women on the camino
• Warning to women travelling alone

I suspect some comments may be misjudged due to the sentiments above.

So I too am minded to throttle back on reading the "New Posts" but for different reasons

Best wishes.

 

[3walkingtoSantiago]

I feel much the same about staying away from the forum. It's a shame because I feel like I have learned a lot and enjoyed sharing in others' experiences. However, the dogged nastiness - much of it coming from veteran members - has made me reconsider the whole thing. So much of it feels contrary to the "spirit" of the Camino that so many seem to think they are "defending."

Peace.

 

[mikevasey]

Hi Gailsie it can get frustrating sometimes on here but I just see them as waves that come occasionally upsetting the helpful balance of the forum. It looks like this one will go on for a while and the mods may have to allow a lot more go than they would normally would, its seems useful info keeps coming to light amongst all the other stuff but it does feel hurtful when getting caught up in it.

I am on at least two peoples ignore list, wish I was on another one as well but have used one of their info to good use when I was on the Arles route last year. So it keeps useful info on the site and doesn't make it a closed forum.

All the best.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Gailsie, I hope you will reconsider and stay.

I realize the conversation about safety on the Camino got heated and I may be one of the people whose posts upset you.
If so, I apologize.

I quickly saw my post felt out of line to some people and I removed it right away for that reason - so my strong emotional input would not upset anyone else. It was not meant to be an attack. I was weary of hearing about the dangers of the Camino, and I guess had reached my saturation point. But I could have said it with more tact.

I found it unfortunate that people continued to refer to my post, even after it had been removed.

I still remain passionate about the Camino being safe for women, much safer than anyplace else I can think of.
I believe that with all my heart.
That has not changed.
And I realize when I'm passionate, I speak with my hands waving in the air.
Sometimes, though, the words on the written page can feel stronger than what I'm actually trying to say.
And I do need to be more careful.

In any case, this forum is filled with a wonderfully diverse group of people on many levels.
I think it's normal we won't always agree.

If you need to take a break, that's your decision.
But your input here, as with every forum member's input, is valued.
Annie

 

[Lise T]

Somehow I have to learn to wean myself from this forum. ..........However, the many of the discussions on this forum that have resulted from her disappearance have become hostile and I find them very difficult to read.

Hey ....

Thank you for expressing what many of us are feeling.

I have stated before that I am useless with words...and spelling...and grammar. ☺
So I often feel helpless when I see people's posts get attacked and twisted. Some people have an incredible ability to throw word grenades....and then appear to enjoy seeing the carnage unfold. I have a relative that does that...he calls it a game. I find it boring.

I would just add for newbies....that having Veteran status means you have made a number of posts. (I think....or the length of time we have been a forum member).
It does not mean we have any greater status than a brand new forum member. I got some very bad advice from a "Veteran" who had walked over five Camino's. Boy! I was angry with them. But in the end it was my fault for following blindly.

Once again. ...thank you for this post.

 

[camino4me]

Somehow I have to learn to wean myself from this forum. I still am interested in keeping Denise and her family in my thoughts and checking in on the latest news. However, the many of the discussions on this forum that have resulted from her disappearance have become hostile and I find them very difficult to read. I am still hopefully able to walk another camino in the next few years so I want to keep up with camino news but I have to learn to step back from reading and responding to some of the threads and their posts.

Dear Gailsie,

I feel how you feel, so much more because most of the hostility, publicly and privately, were directed at me on my thread. I owe you and other members who were sharing, commenting and interested in my subject for exposing all of you to the negativity of it.

I want to thank you for your comment and support on this subject. I admire you for your bravely protest the hostility which was not appropriate among people who share the same love and passion for the Camino. That was what brought me here in the beginning.

The hostility attitude of some of the members and the unwelcoming of this subject on this forum made me realize it is time to move on. I will take my campaign out of this forum.

No, I won't abandon it. I will take Anniesantiago's advise, she is right I should spearhead on this just cause somewhere else.

I am thinking of a blog or open a facebook group. If you are interested please keep in touch with me on PM in the next couple of days to exchange contact info for further updated.

I will leave the forum within a few days, leaving me just enough time to say thank you and exchange contact with those who had expressed interest in the subject.

I wish you all the best,

Buen Camino.

 

[camino4me]

Gailsie, I hope you will reconsider and stay.

I realize the conversation about safety on the Camino got heated and I may be one of the people whose posts upset you.
If so, I apologize.

I quickly saw my post felt out of line to some people and I removed it right away for that reason - so my strong emotional input would not upset anyone else. It was not meant to be an attack. I was weary of hearing about the dangers of the Camino, and I guess had reached my saturation point. But I could have said it with more tact.

I found it unfortunate that people continued to refer to my post, even after it had been removed.

I still remain passionate about the Camino being safe for women, much safer than anyplace else I can think of.
I believe that with all my heart.
That has not changed.
And I realize when I'm passionate, I speak with my hands waving in the air.
Sometimes, though, the words on the written page can feel stronger than what I'm actually trying to say.
And I do need to be more careful.

In any case, this forum is filled with a wonderfully diverse group of people on many levels.
I think it's normal we won't always agree.

If you need to take a break, that's your decision.
But your input here, as with every forum member's input, is valued.
Annie

Anniesantiago,

I conclude that although your initial reaction was harsh, but I am very much appreciated by the fact that you firstly, were graciously apologized and edited your comment, then, eventually proceeded to remove most of it from the thread and stayed out of it.

I thank you and am very appreciated for your courtesy, fairness and respectful gesture on my thread. I apologize that your comment was referred to even after its removal, unfortunately, the effect of it resonates longer than you'd think.

I have no interest or energy to endless verbal war on this forum. It ruins the purpose. I will take your advise and proceed it somewhere else. I am glad that my thread though short-lived had stirred some awareness and it is undeniable that many among the members are very interested in the subject. I am confident that the subject of sexual violence will come up again. I am more interested in taking action against it.

Even though we don't share the same view on women's safety on the Camino, I applaud you for having stepped back and demonstrated courtesy and democracy on the forum and your right attitude to "agree to disagree". I want you to know, it is much appreciated and what an outstanding example you have set in this case. People should have the right of speech and entitle to have their own opinions. It always has two sides to the conversation don't you think?

After all, we do share some commonality which is the passionate love for the Camino.

Best to you,

 

[jpflavin1]

Somehow I have to learn to wean myself from this forum. I still am interested in keeping Denise and her family in my thoughts and checking in on the latest news. However, the many of the discussions on this forum that have resulted from her disappearance have become hostile and I find them very difficult to read. I am still hopefully able to walk another camino in the next few years so I want to keep up with Camino news but I have to learn to step back from reading and responding to some of the threads and their posts.

Gailsie:

This is a bridge many of us come to at some time on this forum.

I believe that most of the comments on both sides of the subject in question are well intentioned and sometimes taken out of context. Several times, I have found myself on the other side of a conversation with someone I have met in person or have developed a level of respect for through this forum. Additional probing questions or a PM can bring clarity to a position if not agreement.

Another consideration is that while we are all English speakers, English is not everyone's first language and some words are interpreted differently.

Do not be discouraged by perceived hostile responses. These comments, imo, are defensive statements. Some feel Spain, it's Police force and the Camino are being attacked. Others, imo, think a few allegations are creating a fearful environment. IMO, Spain is a beautiful safe country, it's police force as competent as any other, the Camino safer than most places on Earth, the threads valuable and not based in fear but what if?

The threads seem to be looking for some type of official guidance. What should I do if something does happen? While I think it is unlikely or rare anything will happen, I understand it could be reassuring to have such guidance. That said, this is an opinion forum and such guidance is unlikely to be found here.

Whatever decision you make going forward, I wish you well.

Best regards,
Joe

 

[Ottawa123]

Gailsie,

I share your dismay at the behaviour of some of the members (of all levels). To me, there were some knee-jerk reactions that seemed to convey a "don't touch my camino" attitude. Which I understand. I, too, become testy when someone has a differing attitude on a subject close to my heart. But there were other, more troubling reactions that honestly angered me. The ridicule, the hostility, the us vs them attitude. Especially the curt demands from some corners that a thread be closed. They comment nine, ten times, then demand it be closed because they're "done with it"?! I find this highly disingenuous.

Sadly, something has been broken for me vis-à-vis this forum, and like Humpty Dumpty, it probably won't ever be put back together again. I won't be leaving, but I won't be investing much in it either. Not for a bit, anyway. Sadly.

Bon chemin, Gailsie.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Gailsie, I hope you will reconsider and stay.

I realize the conversation about safety on the Camino got heated and I may be one of the people whose posts upset you.
If so, I apologize.

I quickly saw my post felt out of line to some people and I removed it right away for that reason - so my strong emotional input would not upset anyone else. It was not meant to be an attack. I was weary of hearing about the dangers of the Camino, and I guess had reached my saturation point. But I could have said it with more tact.

I found it unfortunate that people continued to refer to my post, even after it had been removed.

I still remain passionate about the Camino being safe for women, much safer than anyplace else I can think of.
I believe that with all my heart.
That has not changed.
And I realize when I'm passionate, I speak with my hands waving in the air.
Sometimes, though, the words on the written page can feel stronger than what I'm actually trying to say.
And I do need to be more careful.

In any case, this forum is filled with a wonderfully diverse group of people on many levels.
I think it's normal we won't always agree.

If you need to take a break, that's your decision.
But your input here, as with every forum member's input, is valued.
Annie

Who could not love you?

Well said.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Gailsie,

I share your dismay at the behaviour of some of the members (of all levels). To me, there were some knee-jerk reactions that seemed to convey a "don't touch my camino" attitude. Which I understand. I, too, become testy when someone has a differing attitude on a subject close to my heart. But there were other, more troubling reactions that honestly angered me. The ridicule, the hostility, the us vs them attitude. Especially the curt demands from some corners that a thread be closed. They comment nine, ten times, then demand it be closed because they're "done with it"?! I find this highly disingenuous.

Sadly, something has been broken for me vis-à-vis this forum, and like Humpty Dumpty, it probably won't ever be put back together again. I won't be leaving, but I won't be investing much in it either. Not for a bit, anyway. Sadly.

Bon chemin, Gailsie.

You put this quite well.

Recently, I deleted an entire thread that I had posted. I had a veteran write and tell me that he hoped I would be able to "overcome my fear" enough to walk the Camino. That was a huge leap in logic: as an ex-embassy warden and a past resident of Cambodia (during some of the dangerous days, to be honest), I am not a fearful person. The person had done a superficial read of my post and come to the wrong conclusion. Kind of like mixing the colors blue and yellow and coming up with orange.

I thought "*&^% it" and just deleted the thread. I am sorry to say that I've come to learn that if it doesn't pass muster with the veterans, it could be embarrassing .

In terms of safety, I'll run your way if you blow your whistle, but I do not plan to ever--and I mean ever--ask anyone for information or advice in a thread again, pertaining to safety.

 

[Ottawa123]

Recently, I deleted an entire thread that I had posted. I had a veteran write and tell me that he hoped I would be able to "overcome my fear" enough to walk the Camino.

Exactly.

That's the thing with trying to convey a whole slew of emotions and nuances using only a keyboard. I would have been insulted to be contacted with such a condescending comment. Like you, I have lived a full and sometimes unquiet life. I think of myself as a prepared person; not worried, fearful, and certainly not in need of some condescending pat on the head "there, there, I hope you feel better soon."

I am already looking for a different forum for safety concerns during urban and non-wilderness hiking, even if it has nothing to do with the camino. If I find something, I will PM you. Likewise, I would not ask advice here for anything related to safety or life-and-death. I'll keep this forum for logistics and paths tips, which seems to be the comfortable and safe subjects most are used to.

You blow your whistle, you'll see me running to you. Always.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Exactly.

That's the thing with trying to convey a whole slew of emotions and nuances using only a keyboard. I would have been insulted to be contacted with such a condescending comment. Like you, I have lived a full and sometimes unquiet life. I think of myself as a prepared person; not worried, fearful, and certainly not in need of some condescending pat on the head "there, there, I hope you feel better soon."

I am already looking for a different forum for safety concerns during urban and non-wilderness hiking, even if it has nothing to do with the camino. If I find something, I will PM you. Likewise, I would not ask advice here for anything related to safety or life-and-death. I'll keep this forum for logistics and paths tips, which seems to be the comfortable and safe subjects most are used to.

You blow your whistle, you'll see me running to you. Always.

Thanks. I think you understood me perfectly.

 

[s. brown]

Somehow I have to learn to wean myself from this forum. I still am interested in keeping Denise and her family in my thoughts and checking in on the latest news. However, the many of the discussions on this forum that have resulted from her disappearance have become hostile and I find them very difficult to read. I am still hopefully able to walk another camino in the next few years so I want to keep up with camino news but I have to learn to step back from reading and responding to some of the threads and their posts.

You beat me to it. I, too, have been contemplating leaving this forum. What started out as a delightful discovery in finding this forum has deteriorated into a cringing, head-shaking experience when I read some of the responses to women who have had frightening experiences or who are concerned for their safety on the camino.

Women who have come foreword to post experiences of assault or attempted assault have been ridiculed, dismissed, and invalidated. For those who are unaware of what this does to traumatized women (or men, for that matter), it is the recipe for re-trauma. It also strikes fear in the hearts of many other women. It is no wonder some slink off and are never heard from again, or don't respond to demands to explain what exactly they mean by "molestation," or have their posted experiences or concerns removed. In recent weeks I sent a PM to one woman who got bombarded with negative comments about her concern for her safety. She answered that she had been crying all day over this and was profuse in her gratitude that I expressed some small concern and compassion for her treatment. If that happened to me I might just turn off my computer, take a shower to try to wash off the dismissive comments, and never return.

It doesn't help to write, "don't worry, the camino is safe, you'll be just fine." Yeah, you'll be just fine unless you're the next one assaulted. The fact is: assault has happened on the camino. This is a truth; it isn't a hypothetical. And any worried woman is afraid she could be the next victim. Women are only warning others of what has happened to them or asking what they might do to protect themselves. It isn't fear mongering or paranoia. I realize many, many women walk the camino and only have wonderful, safe experiences, but it isn't the only experience to be had.

And men aren't the only offenders here. There are some female writers who are the equivalent of loud-mouthed bullies who carry big sticks and attempt to bash those who dare bring up safety concerns.

If men and women don't come forward with the realities of the camino then this forum will be a sanitized version of the truth.

My hat is off to Camino4me. You took a lot of abuse -- and it was really hard to read --but you stood up to it beautifully.

 

[camino4me]

Thanks

You beat me to it. I, too, have been contemplating leaving this forum. What started out as a delightful discovery in finding this forum has deteriorated into a cringing, head-shaking experience when I read some of the responses to women who have had frightening experiences or who are concerned for their safety on the camino.

Women who have come foreword to post experiences of assault or attempted assault have been ridiculed, dismissed, and invalidated. For those who are unaware of what this does to traumatized women (or men, for that matter), it is the recipe for re-trauma. It also strikes fear in the hearts of many other women. It is no wonder some slink off and are never heard from again, or don't respond to demands to explain what exactly they mean by "molestation," or have their posted experiences or concerns removed. If that happened to me I might just turn off my computer, take a shower to try to wash off the dismissive comments, and never return.

It doesn't help to write, "don't worry, the camino is safe, you'll be just fine." Yeah, you'll be just fine unless you're the next one assaulted. The fact is: assault has happened on the camino. This is a truth; it isn't a hypothetical. And any worried woman is afraid she could be the next victim. Women are only warning others of what has happened to them or asking what they might do to protect themselves. It isn't fear mongering or paranoia. I realize many, many women walk the camino and only have wonderful, safe experiences, but it isn't the only experience to be had.

And men aren't the only offenders here. There are some female writers who are the equivalent of loud-mouthed bullies who carry big sticks and attempt to bash those who dare bring up safety concerns.

If men and women don't come forward with the realities of the camino then this forum will be a sanitized version of the truth.

My hat is off to Camino4me. You took a lot of abuse -- and was it was really hard to read --but you stood up to it beautifully.

S. Brown,

Thank you for your compliment, I tried my best.
In a short moment Ivar will delete my account upon my request.
Good bye all and it has been an interesting experience.
I'm out of here
Best

 

[s. brown]

Thanks

S. Brown,

Thank you for your compliment, I tried my best.
In a short moment Ivar will delete my account upon my request.
Good bye all and it has been an interesting experience.
I'm out of here
Best

I am very sorry to read this. I wish you all the best.

 

[Lise T]

Wow! S.Brown.

Beautifully written. Thank you.

Helen.....thank you again for raising this issue. Big hug fellow sister Pilgram. Big hug!

 

[Gailsie]

It very unfortunate that camino4me felt she had to leave because of bullying and harassment on this forum. Where is the Camino spirit in those who saw fit to attack. At least the person whose post horrified me so much had the decency to withdraw her remarks and apologize. Too bad others could not see how their remarks could hurt pilgrims or future pilgrims. I thought that this forum was about helping others not tearing them down, guess I was wrong.

 

[David]

Could someone tell me which thread is being written about and that has upset so many people? I would like to read all of it - thanks

 

[CaminoCruiser]

Hi David I think it's this one: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...-harassment-rape-attempt-on-the-camino.34242/

Some posts were deleted but you'll get the general tone of it.

 

[Ottawa123]

Hi David I think it's this one: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...-harassment-rape-attempt-on-the-camino.34242/

Some posts were deleted but you'll get the general tone of it.

Not only in posts. Camino4me showed me private messages she has received that made my hair stand straight up: the language, the vitriol...the completely inappropriate call for her to consult a mental health professional?! Inexcusable. If this were my venue, there would have been a good round of virtual slaps upside the head and bans. And I don't buy the "but I'm passionate about this or that".

You got it on the head, s.brown: bullies.

Anyway. I hope she manages to fight the inertia where she is now.

 

[Gailsie]

I also communicated with Camino4me thru PM and that prompted my last posting on this thread. I was absolutely astonished at what some of the forum members had the nerve to write to her in PMs- no wonder she left. I am so sorry that she felt that was her only choice but I understand after reading some of the PMs that were sent her way. The Camino spirit was certainly not in evidence in some people - passionate be damned - it was pure vindictiveness that she did not agree with them and kept trying to return to here original idea.

I have been waiting for those people to start harassing and bullying me as I continued to write about what I saw as really inappropriate posts by some of the members on the forum. Hopefully they will learn from the heightened awareness that some of us will not stand for such treatment on this forum.

My mother did teach me that if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all. However I cannot watch and see what is happening without speaking out. Some of us would have liked to have the original thread continued with constructive ideas. Please can we have some civility on the subject about what has been happening to some women on a camino, even if there is one a few incidences, they are important those women and for those of us who care about what happened to them.

 

[CaminoCruiser]

Not only in posts. Camino4me showed me private messages she has received that made my hair stand straight up: the language, the vitriol...the completely inappropriate call for her to consult a mental health professional?! Inexcusable. If this were my venue, there would have been a good round of virtual slaps upside the head and bans. And I don't buy the "but I'm passionate about this or that".

You got it on the head, s.brown: bullies.

Anyway. I hope she manages to fight the inertia where she is now.

Are you serious? People were telling her to see a psychiatrist? And some people say the Camino is supposed to make you a better person. Sadly it's very easy to bully someone hiding behind a keyboard. It makes unhappy people feel empowered to insult and upset others. They always seem to get away with it too.

I agree with you - the "passionate" argument is just a cop-out.

 

[Magwood]

No, I won't abandon it. I will take Anniesantiago's advise, she is right I should spearhead on this just cause somewhere else.

I am thinking of a blog or open a facebook group. If you are interested please keep in touch with me on PM in the next couple of days to exchange contact info for further updated.

I will leave the forum within a few days, leaving me just enough time to say thank you and exchange contact with those who had expressed interest in the subject.

I wish you all the best,

Buen Camino.

Having just returned home from my latest camino, I, like @David, have missed a great deal of what has been happening on this forum over the last few weeks.

But I am interested in helping spread useful information for solo women walking the camino, and have many contacts through my blog and Facebook page.

I think it is too late for me to pm @camino4me, but if someone knows how we can be in touch, please let me know.

 

[Maz]

You beat me to it. I, too, have been contemplating leaving this forum. What started out as a delightful discovery in finding this forum has deteriorated into a cringing, head-shaking experience when I read some of the responses to women who have had frightening experiences or who are concerned for their safety on the camino.

Women who have come foreword to post experiences of assault or attempted assault have been ridiculed, dismissed, and invalidated. For those who are unaware of what this does to traumatized women (or men, for that matter), it is the recipe for re-trauma. It also strikes fear in the hearts of many other women. It is no wonder some slink off and are never heard from again, or don't respond to demands to explain what exactly they mean by "molestation," or have their posted experiences or concerns removed. In recent weeks I sent a PM to one woman who got bombarded with negative comments about her concern for her safety. She answered that she had been crying all day over this and was profuse in her gratitude that I expressed some small concern and compassion for her treatment. If that happened to me I might just turn off my computer, take a shower to try to wash off the dismissive comments, and never return.

It doesn't help to write, "don't worry, the camino is safe, you'll be just fine." Yeah, you'll be just fine unless you're the next one assaulted. The fact is: assault has happened on the camino. This is a truth; it isn't a hypothetical. And any worried woman is afraid she could be the next victim. Women are only warning others of what has happened to them or asking what they might do to protect themselves. It isn't fear mongering or paranoia. I realize many, many women walk the camino and only have wonderful, safe experiences, but it isn't the only experience to be had.

And men aren't the only offenders here. There are some female writers who are the equivalent of loud-mouthed bullies who carry big sticks and attempt to bash those who dare bring up safety concerns.

If men and women don't come forward with the realities of the camino then this forum will be a sanitized version of the truth.

My hat is off to Camino4me. You took a lot of abuse -- and it was really hard to read --but you stood up to it beautifully.

Hi s.Brown,
I'm a newbie on this forum and I have read some of the concerns and some of the replies with interest. The point I would like to make is that what seems to be forgotten is that a lot of women have grown up having to deal with unwanted attentions. And these unwanted attentions can start at a a very young age around puberty. And not just from peers but from older men which is even more disturbing. These would be remarks about your development. As you get older there is the verbal sexual abuse or being groped whilst trying to buy a glass of wine, or when standing on a crowded metro. All these experiences stay with you. So women know about how it feels and always have to be aware of who is around them. There will always be a minority of men that think this kind of behaviour is okay. I worked for the police for a number of years and dealt with victims of this type of crime. I don't think there are any hard and fast answers to this problem. Apart from being aware of surroundings and as has already been suggested walking in groups. Personal alarms (I have a charm alarm on a key ring. Just tested it and now I think I need new eardrums) etc. Head up, shoulders back and walk like you own the road.

 

[Saramago]

I missed much too having left home end of first week of April and returning last week. I was aware of Denise Thiem and walked her section after her (if she did indeed go past Astorga). My preferred method of travel is solo, though at home I do group hiking as well. It is my preference not to follow in a crowd so both years I walked spring. At no time did I feel afraid, witness bad behavior on the Frances or hear of it in cafes or at night. This doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just my experience. I carried no method of protection, whistle or otherwise, though am not saying it's not a good idea. Everywhere I met kind people, always inquiring if all was well, watching my back while not even being asked to, inviting me to join them, which I declined. I felt very safe. My experience only, this year and last year the same. The comraderie amongst pilgrims and kindness of the Spanish people I found extraordinary. Again, my experience only. Buen Camino to all!

 

[Pabloke]

I believe we all have to respect and understand every opinion, that's why we are here. If someone wants to read just what he/she thinks, there are other ways.

I didn't like some things Camino4me said, maybe because of the way she did, maybe because I missed the point completely, but I understand it just expressed the way she feel and I think she tried to be respectful. I made her know what I think about some things she said, could there be another reason to stay here? One asks, others respond; one tells, others give their opiniion. That's the meaning of a forum, I think.

I maintain what I said even if it upsets. And if you don't mind I would like to add that nothing on the net should be so important or transcendenal, life's too short to waist it with some things. Let's enjoy what we've got and what we do.

The first and very best lesson on the Way.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

I believe we all have to respect and understand every opinion, that's why we are here. If someone wants to read just what he/she thinks, there are other ways.

I didn't like some things Camino4me said, maybe because of the way she did, maybe because I missed the point completely, but I understand it just expressed the way she feel and I think she tried to be respectful. I made her know what I think about some things she said, could there be another reason to stay here? One asks, others respond; one tells, others give their opiniion. That's the meaning of a forum, I think.

I maintain what I said even if it upsets. And if you don't mind I would like to add that nothing on the net should be so important or transcendenal, life's too short to waist it with some things. Let's enjoy what we've got and what we do.

The first and very best lesson on the Way.

I appreciated your comments, and largely agree with them. I would say, though, that Camino4me was communicating in a second language: as an Asian American woman, she was doing her best to communicate well, and I think that given what was appearing in her personal messages, she did quite well. I understand well why she left.

Everything in moderation, though--and choose battles wisely: this isn't where I come to do battle.

This is where I come to learn about backpacks, blisters, and Barritz.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Not only in posts. Camino4me showed me private messages she has received that made my hair stand straight up: the language, the vitriol...the completely inappropriate call for her to consult a mental health professional?! Inexcusable. If this were my venue, there would have been a good round of virtual slaps upside the head and bans. And I don't buy the "but I'm passionate about this or that".

You got it on the head, s.brown: bullies.

Anyway. I hope she manages to fight the inertia where she is now.

Before this goes any further, I'd like to state that I have never sent Camino4me any private messages.
Your post feels like you are saying that I was the one that did this.

I made 1 post that upset the original author and a few others.
I retracted that post.
Not because I didn't believe what I said was true, but because the way it was written was upsetting a few people, and that's not what I intended.

I was not bullying anyone.
I have never sent Camino4me a private message.

I removed the post.
I apologized for the misunderstanding.
She accepted.

Is there something more I can do to ease your discomfort outside of changing my opinion that the Camino is safe?

 

[Gailsie]

Since I have been in contact with Camino4me I can confirm that the PMs that she quoted to me were not from Anniesantiago.

I am one of the "few others" that that was upset with one statement in Anniesantiago's original port. I respect her for deleting the post and for apologizing. I did not like to be told to stay home but that was my beef and I did not consider that bullying or harassment. I hope that Anniesantiago did not take it that way, if so I apologize.

 

[David]

Well, this is becoming a rather warm topic. I went to the thread that was mentioned but I think the serious negative posts have been removed or edited as I couldn't find anything antagonistic, only differing opinions.
Though, I have read with some concern that posters have received vile trolling via private messages - for why? because they had a valid opinion that some others didn't like? Is this the Camino spirit? Crikey!

I would prefer it if members who write such private mails were banned and the recipients were encouraged to stay. Mind you, I would also prefer it if people allowed other people to have different opinions on a subject.

If individuals wish to leave because they are in a huff then that is there choice, certainly better than holding one's breath and going blue until the world changes in their favour - but personally I think that if they have been attacked on the forum via pm and feel so upset by this and this is why they are leaving I think that instead they should report it to a moderator and get it sorted, which would stop such behaviour and then leave only disagreement, which is quite normal behaviour. Come on now, stay with the forum!


Buen Camino to you all.

 

[brkdn2]

It's very hard to hear anything bad about the Camino. I walked CF with my daughter and the time spent there will always be one of the most special times of our lives. People react differently to bad news ... Anger, Prayer, Denial , or Tears. The things that we love the most test our hearts to the extremes and this forum is made up of people, have faith that their hearts are in the right place .

 

[ivar]

PMs sent in the forum are private, so there is no way anyone can see what is sent and what is not. If anyone receive any unpleasant PM, please click the "Report" link and report it to the mods.

On a related topic. One thing that was suggested to me in a PM today was that we should have more women moderators. I agree. We used to have a few a while back, but no longer so. Next time we add a moderator, I hope we will be able to find a woman.

Please let me know (Private message) if you have idea on how the forum can get better, or handle situations like this in a better way. We are not perfect, and good advice are always welcomed.

Greetings from Santiago,
Ivar

 

[Gailsie]

OK what is one of the offending posts was from a moderator??????

 

[ivar]

OK what is one of the offending posts was from a moderator??????

The "Woman moderators" and the "PMs are private" are two separate topics. I mention them here since I am trying to make the forum a better place.

If you are interested in knowing who the PMs were from, please send me a PM with the reasons why this is something you need to know.

Saludos,
Ivar

 

[Gailsie]

"What I want, what I really really want", or wanted was a really good discussion on Camino4me's original thread on women' safety on the camino. It seems to have degenerated into a slew of statistics on how safe the camino, or that you should have no fear when walking, comments that women should have no more fear than walking in their own home town/province/state/region/country, etc. There were some good comments as well but because of so many negative posts and concerns it was probably the best that it got cut off.

That is unfortunate. I completely understand now why no one would report an incident to the police and certainly not on this forum.

I have tried to say what I wanted with as much diplomacy as possible (with the exception about staying home if you are afraid of walking the camino, that really got the hair on the back of my next standing up and I probably should have toned down my reply).

I am 66 years old and have seen a great deal of changes on how women are treated, mostly for the better. However I have a great deal of concern with many of the comments on the forum. I have said enough and sent enough PMs out.

Here are some suggestions in my humble opinion :
1. Respond kindly, reread your post, checking for tone. If too angry or does not answer the question, then rewrite it toning it down.
2. Write a post as though your mother, father, sibling, child, etc. were reading it.
3. Lastly and most important of all, please be kind to one another.

Enough said by me in my effort to make the forum post more civil.

 

[simply B]

Here are some suggestions in my humble opinion :
1. Respond kindly, reread your post, checking for tone. If too angry or does not answer the question, then rewrite it toning it down.
2. Write a post as though your mother, father, sibling, child, etc. were reading it.
3. Lastly and most important of all, please be kind to one another.

Well said, @Gailsie!

You have done a pretty close re-cap of Socrates' "Triple Filter Test". In short, he was only open to communication that was: True, Useful and Good.

My limited observations here inform me that the threads which tend to go "pear-shaped" into a steaming muddle are those that originate from or depend upon "feelings".

These are tricky because feelings cannot be necessarily or objectively "True". Someone owns them. A friendly discussion of them might help change the feelings; questioning their validity at the outset is not only rude but a practical dead-end street.

Also, sometimes it helps to remember that there may be no "Useful" answer. Silence can be golden....and Good.

The rest of the world is going crazy and people seem angrier by the day almost anywhere one looks. It would be regrettable if that seeped into the pilg community.

Especially here, in this forum, I believe that most expect the "Good" - - in the sense of agreeing to disagree and supporting other pilgrims as one's abilities allow. That is what a lot of us brought back from the Camino. IMHO it is far more important than any sense of personal achievement, our 'Camino expertise' and even that Compostela.

And with that, I note that my "Donating" status has lapsed and needs to be addressed. I have faith in the forum, its members and the need of new pilgrims for this service.

B

 

[Ottawa123]

Well, @Gailsie, I wanted to wish you a great camino and thank you for starting this thread. This will be the last comment for me as I have asked Ivar to delete my account as well. I find that the disappointment just won't subside, the joy just won't return.

I hope you all have a wonderful journey, wherever it may take you. All the best.

N

 

[Gailsie]

Two forum members lost in two days. What a shame. Is this what forum members really want!!! or do you folks care at all.

 

[ricitosdeplata]

I care that you and Ottawa are leaving. I think I understand. Written communication without the benefit of facial expressions and body language can seem stronger than intended. And we don't have the advantage of knowing other members personality style. A firm no holds barred comment from someone you don't know, or have not had time to build a savings account of good will, comes across jarring, unfriendly or even hostile. The image of the camino as a warm place has been tarnished beginning with Denise ' s disappearance followed by reports of inappropriate behavior toward women. Some members have the need to ventilate while others might feel that one must be stoic and enough already with the fear.
There is a lot to be gained from this forum but like all families there are misunderstandings. I hope after some time to let hurt feelings dissipate you will return to the forum. Your contributions to our ("our" includes you) discussions will be missed. We'll be here to welcome you back.

 

[ricitosdeplata]

I should add that inappropriate PMs should be reported and are not acceptable behavior on this forum. Report them and block those members.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Before this goes any further, I'd like to state that I have never sent Camino4me any private messages.
Your post feels like you are saying that I was the one that did this.

I made 1 post that upset the original author and a few others.
I retracted that post.
Not because I didn't believe what I said was true, but because the way it was written was upsetting a few people, and that's not what I intended.

I was not bullying anyone.
I have never sent Camino4me a private message.

I removed the post.
I apologized for the misunderstanding.
She accepted.

Is there something more I can do to ease your discomfort outside of changing my opinion that the Camino is safe?

Ain't that the problem: anyone whi has not agreed with the intensity of the need for action is now being fingered by these posts and each one of us is now suspected of being bullies. After all, I have been quoated as "demading" that thread be closed when a) i asked if we were not done with the topic as we were going in circles and b) as if little old me would be able to snap her fingers and control this forum and those who have nirtured it all thse years. I still stand behind all I have said on th topic and have no issue statng my opinions publically.

 

[ivar]

I will close this thread now.. let's get back to helping new pilgrim that are looking for some help.