What and Whom is this Forum for?

[Priscillian]

This is a backpack, shoes, poles, bed bugs, blisters and I had a wonderful experience forum.

I just received this in a PM from a member I shall obviously not name here. It concerns an ongoing thread in another area. I will not be answering this message as I believe I have already done so more than once.
If this is the case then 80% of my posts and comments have been gratuitous and most likely a waste of time. A good percentage of yours too...
I have spent a LOT of time here... most valuable time I have always believed, and although I have had my detractors (and been a naughty girl and had to eat humble pie on occasion) I have also had a lot more very nice messages and comments from members who DO enjoy my posts. Some have been about the topics above (including one on constipation); most have not.
I wonder if anyone would like to comment upon just what the parameters of this forum are perceived to be and just whose concerns we should include and who not.
Most sincerely and with no intention to antagonise,
Tracy Saunders

 

[sillydoll]

Someone obviously hasn't learned very much if they think its only about "backpack, shoes, poles, bed bugs and blisters". You can get all of that from any backpacking forum. This forum is "Where past pilgrims share and future pilgrims learn" anything and everything to do with pilgrimage and pilgrims.

 

[Tia Valeria]

I agree with you Sil.
One of the best threads was 'Fear'. So open and honest. For me the forum isn't just about "backpack, shoes, poles, bed bugs and blisters" but about anything that helps a fellow pilgrim before, during and after the Camino. (Encouragement not judgement) Our moderators do a great job keeping some threads from straying; either off topic or into personal comments/sniping. We all can stray off track sometimes - there is always the edit button. Some threads can annoy, but they are not compulsory reading, and different things annoy different people. Don't let it get to you Priscillian.
I have probably already said too much but I like it how we are. I wonder what Ivar's view is on this.

 

[lynnejohn]

I am very happy with our forum - I look forward to reading just about every day - it's my Camino fix when I'm not actually walking the Camino. Some threads interest me more than others, and I would think that is the case for all of us. The only type of thread that does not interest me is the one that becomes very mean-spirited or sarcastic. Other than that, there is no topic on sharing and learning about the Camino that does not belong here. Ivar and our other moderators keep things in line with a very light hand compared to other forums and allow us a good deal of latitude when a thread is generating a lot of interest and participation. Walking the Camino has changed my life in many ways, and this forum and its members have had a significant role in that change. It's a wonderful, unique and caring community and I wouldn't change it for anything.

lynne

 

[AJ]

I too agree with Sil.

 

[KiwiNomad06]

I had lots and lots of really basic questions before I left on the Camino in 2008. I asked them on the Forum, and was patiently answered here by people who had already walked. I asked them in PM, and I was even able to talk on the telephone to a few 'locals' I 'met' via the Forum. There's nothing wrong with questions about backpacks and blisters and where to stay and how far to walk each day: they are quite normal concerns for someone who hasn't walked the Camino yet.

Even better, some of the same people who had patiently answered my questions kept in touch with me while I was walking- via my blog or e-mail. (Sil was one of those). I found it incredibly encouraging to have contact from Forum people who had walked it, who knew what it was like, who understood about the hard days and the special joys...

Since I have been home I have reflected on my experience, but often those thoughts are too personal for me to share with the open Forum. I have shared them via e-mail with various people. I think it can be difficult for people to share more deeply felt thoughts on the Forum just because of the nature of forums in general. As soon as you mention something like religion on any internet forum at all, all hell tends to break loose and some people become quite savage. Sad but true.

I think we are incredibly lucky here on the forum that so many people are prepared to patiently answer the questions of people who are planning to walk in the future.
Margaret

 

[Lydia Gillen]

This forum has been for me a place of learning, help, encouragement,fun, camaraderie and so much more. Thanks to all the moderators and the regular participants who have shared their wisdom and insights.
Let us all continue to be a blessing to each other.

 

[andy.d]

I echo all this. It was tremendously useful in preparing for my first Camino two years ago - it would have been much harder without all the wise advice and encouragement. It's also useful now as I limber up for the Ingles. I also enjoy the pilgrim comradeship on here.

Andy

 

[bromeliad]

I agree wholeheartedly with the comments.

I think any questions, concerns or comments should be welcome, as long as they are respectful of others. Those topics which are of no interest to the community will die naturally -- and nobody is forced to read them anyway.

Humor is great, but sarcasm isn't: it makes well-meaning people to feel bullied and unwelcome. Nobody should be made to feel they "don't belong" because they had the courage to come here and expose their vulnerability and their insecurities. Nobody should be told to take a bus and just go home because they aren't tough enough, good enough for the Camino.

Responding to someone's post with hostile, aggressive and/or authoritarian remarks is the first step to destroying even long-established communities, and people no longer feel safe to voice their doubts and concerns. People should have the freedom to do that without fear of incurring the wrath of the Pilgrim Patrol, simply because their ideas are not in line with the ideas of those who think they are the Pilgrim Patrol. Everybody's concerns deserve our support, as nobody's concerns are holier or more "pilgrim-worthy" than anybody else's.

But I suspect this has been discussed before to no avail, so my advice to newbies like myself is to participate fully nevertheless, ignore crankiness when it comes, and enjoy the kindness and support that fortunately set the tone to this forum... :wink:

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Everyone who is respectful and polite to fellow pilgrims even when we may think that their point of view is a load of tosh.

I personally fail to see how we can avoid getting into spiritual and religious matters from time to time given that the Camino was founded for the purpose of getting to a place of worship where the body of a saint is believed to be laid to rest.

You may not agree with my spiritual viewpoint, but at least treat it with respect. You may not agree with the way I undertake the Camino, but.... you get the message.

Tracy just use the foe button to block the person sending you the unwanted and unhelpful PM messages. That is why it is there.

I suspect I have been, am and will be in contact with both yourself and that person. I have no problems with being forum friends with either of you, but it is not my place to say, kiss and make up.

What I would say is, use the button and put an end to this matter because it would be best for the both of you.

philip

 

[Priscillian]

Don't want no foes. Ain't got no gripes. Perhaps all a misunderstanding. I've put in my (devalued but I hope valuable) two cents worth. That's it. My posts are always a bit controversial but I seem to be tolerated a bit like the old mad maiden aunt (from Wiltshire): I says 'em like I thinks 'em and sometimes I 'as to take 'em back see.
C'est la Vie.
I do like the track this thread has taken though.
TS

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Tracy, I recognised some time ago that you are "mad, bad and dangerous to know".

That is why you are so interesting and always worth reading.

ps. if this offends you say so and I will delete it. However, I think you have a sense of humour and will see where it is coming from.

 

[Priscillian]

That's me! Crazy as a (little) fox! :wink:
Don't stop here, though. Lots of visits to this thread but relatively few posters. It IS something worth discussing, don't you think? Even if only to avoid future misunderstandings.
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.blogspot.com

 

[+@^^]

without breaking the creativity of this thread
id be interested to hear it from the administrator
or moderators
.
the question then being - under what circumstances
would they lock a thread
evict a member
edit out a post
.
that would probably give the outside parameters
then within that, all thats left is to remain relevant and kind
? maybe

 

[Debinq]

Is there some disingeniousness (sp?) here? Strikes me that the question is why something someone said in a PM found its' way onto the forum? Was that 'something said' so shocking? So insulting? So inappropriate? So disagreable? .... seems to me the characterisation of this forum was only partially applicable and accurate - it is about that (blisters, boots etc) *and* about a great deal more too

After all: "There are many things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." (Hamlet, 1.5)

happy trails
Peter

 

[ivar]

As it sais at the top of each page "Where past pilgrims share and future pilgrims learn". It includes a lot of types of conversations related to the Camino de Santiago. The (sometimes difficult) work for the moderators (and me) is to decide once a post is not for this forum. There is no "one rule" that guides us. We know it when we see it. I have avoided setting up detailed forum rules, since this will become a long list of "You can not A", "You can not B", .... Instead I have decided to think that as adults, we can figure this out as we go.

Greetings from Santiago de Compostela,
Ivar

 

[colinPeter]

I will not be answering this message ...

"Private message, or PM for short, is a message sent in private from a member to one or more other members..... Private messages are generally used for personal conversations." wikipedia

I think this forum is an excellent vehicle for both public and private opinions on many diverse aspects of the Camino.

One is done via a "Post" the other is via a "PM". Posts are public, PMs are private.

A reader could be excused for thinking that this "Post", actually is an answer to the "PM".

I don't think the forum is best served by the unnecessary merging of private and public messages.

 

[Priscillian]

Ordinarily I would agree with you both, but the comment surprised me so much that I thought it was a worthwhile one to generate discussion about what this Forum really did represent and whom. If members act as moderators and state online whether a certain thread should or should not be started, belongs or does not belong, then that would appear to indicate that that member has a specific idea of what the content of the Forum should be, hence my repost and question above. I am quite happy to state here that in my opinion members should not co-opt the job of the moderators and say what should be posted and what not and I have said so, nicely. It was my understanding that pretty well anything which would help past and present pilgrims "learn" - about the Camino AND themselves - was permitted. The quote with which I began would seem to bring that into dispute. I asked for your opinion...on the question... not whether or not I had a right to phrase it.
I also made it clear that this was a genuine question with no intent to antagonise.
I came to the aid of someone who had clearly been hurt by a certain unthinking (and likely unintentional, as I have also stated) comment. I have not answered the last message here or in private because there seemed to be little point in further arguing when I have already asked the poster not to make personal remarks about my character when he or she knows nothing about me. I did not initiate the PMs. I simply defended myself and I was never disrespectful. I suggested that we agree to disagree but instead was called names. I would not even be answering in this way here (and may remove this once I have made my point) were it not for the fact that I feel that I have somewhat come under attack from the two of you rather publically.
It's not Open Season on Matron you know.

 

[sillydoll]

If we are to learn a lesson from this, it will be not to use Abusive ad hominem (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) when discussing any subject on this forum.

Wiki : Ad Hominem usually involves insulting or belittling one's opponent in order to attack his/her claim, or invalidate his/her argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions. People who use this tactic usually lack the necessary skills to debate a subject in an objective and intelligent manner.

Even school kids on a debating team are taught the following when entering a debate:

DON’T let your emotions get the better ofyou.
DO stay calm
DON’T attack your opponents
DO be polite
DON’T use inappropriate language

 

[colinPeter]

Apologies :?

 

[Priscillian]

Perhaps all a misunderstanding.

And that's the way it might have stayed had two of you not brought my integrity into question.
I too apologise if I have caused any offence. That was never my intention as I stated in the original post.

Now can we please stop throwing spit balls at Matron and get back to the topic!

 

[Trudy]

What I love about this forum is the support and encouragement given to new, and repeat, pilgrims by others who've walked the Camino and know what it's all about.

Yes, it can be a

This is a backpack, shoes, poles, bed bugs, blisters and I had a wonderful experience forum.

but this is simply because most of us are not backpackers or hikers, do not habitually go on long distance endurance treks, and are not mountain climbers. Therefore we do not frequent "backpacker" or "trekking" websites but rely on pilgrimage sites such as Santiagobis for our information on what gear to take, and how to wear/use it, how to combat little critters and blisters, because we haven't come across this sort of thing before.

Most of the pilgrims I met might have done the occasional weekend hike, but had never taken up hiking as a hobby, that is until they make the decision to walk to Compostela. And this includes me, my knees still haven't forgiven me! So when we decide to walk the Camino it's all new to us. We need all the help we can get.

Many of us don't have the experience we envisaged on the Camino, sometimes due to injury, illness, or just mentally being unable to continue. I didn't manage to walk into Santiago de Compostela until my third attempt of the Camino. And I'm sure I'm not the only one, there seemed to be quite a large drop-out rate each time I was there. But this doesn't mean I had a bad experience. Each pilgrimage was a good experience for me, and each with positive long-term outcomes. And the experiences were wonderful, I get flashbacks to Camino people, places, and experiences everyday.

And surely that's what this forum is about. A place where novices can ask "silly" questions and not be judged, where others understand the fears and elations of walking the Camino. It's one of the few places where these things can be discussed freely, because only people who know about the Camino and have either walked it, or have an interest in it, can understand.

Trudy

 

[Debinq]

So we can expect the 'old maiden aunt from Wilts again, who 'says 'em like she thinks 'em?

happy trails
P

 

[Deleted member 3000]

there seemed to be quite a large drop-out rate each time I was there

You were able to observe the ones that quit after a few days. I ended one walk at St. Jean Pied de Port, and at the train station was able to observe the ones that barely started. They were limping in flip-flops, several with brand new boots dangling from their packs. I took away at least three lessons: 1) it is not easy; 2) do not show up with new boots; 3) bring flip-flops.

 

[koby]

"Where past pilgrims share and future pilgrims learn".

I don't have a clue what is going on. I wonder if others new to the forum like me might wish to ask that this dispute/argument/collision of thought be taken elsewhere. My very senior years of experience tell me that this is a no-win situation and it will only be resolved (on this thread) by one who has the grace to bow out. The interesting title "What and whom is this forum for?" is misleading as it now stands.

I was attracted to this forum by the title as Ivar pointed out: "Where past pilgrims share and future pilgrims learn" and I thought "what a beautiful way of putting it."

 

[Sojourner47]

"Where past pilgrims share and future pilgrims learn".

I don't have a clue what is going on. I wonder if others new to the forum like me might wish to ask that this dispute/argument/collision of thought be taken elsewhere.

Well, it has been taken elsewhere, into this "miscellaneous" section.
It is after all, quite a fundamental debate about what is, and is not discussed on this forum.
All the other forum sections are working as usual, so anyone can tune into whatever they're looking for, be it backpacks, albergues or whatever.
It's all about discussion, surely?

 

[Telluridewalker]

Koby (and other newbies),

Don't be put off by a single thread. We, as a diverse group, sometimes get a little navel-gazey and wander off topic a bit. But don't worry- soon someone will mention plastic bags, dogs or blisters and we'll be back on track, opinionated and relevant* as ever. :lol:

*relative term

 

[koby]

I guess I misunderstood the meaning and reason for the title. I look forward to "being back on track."

 

[Debinq]

Koby
That's easy to do - it seems many people have been confused or thrown of late by the many labels ("Miscell Topics", "Miscellaneous abt Santiago" "Medical - " "mental issues") carrying the same topic under discussion.

When I posted mine 2 days ago it struck me first that an important principle had been transgressed - i.e comments expressed in a PM should remain private ! That's the only point I was making! (and will continue to defend)

If I had realised that principle was actually peripheral to the issue raised by Priscillan I would likely have couched my comment in different terms! (ha, there's always that 20/20 hindsight benefit toddling along!)

I therefore put out a plea for an unambiguous stand-alone new topic label "Psychological aspects of 'pelegrinage' Can do Ivar? Where apposite material can be discussed- there must be heaps as shown by Sabine and that hugely positive SA fellow (posted under "Medical") .... plainly it would go along way to demystify, destigmatise and remove any 'taboo' that apparently causes many to tip=toe around the subject of mental health.

Clearly there is a very good case to be made for a new heading - I say again: witness Tamtamplin and Sabine's insightful posts based on their own experiences.

I regret that my comment has been characterised as "abuse" by Priscillan and perhaps by others whom I am unaware of. Sorry! But hope that this goes some way to explaining that it resulted from confusion and being uninformed.

I do realise that it is virtually impossible to keep things private once they are on the Inetrnet but I choose to keep deluding myself that in some forums there are still people who believe and subscribe to an important principle that in my view underpins desirable gentlemanly- / -womanly behaviour! Comments expressed privately must stay out of a public forum! It's as important a principle as being confident about professional confidentiality - what is said in the privacy of a consulting room 'under 4 eyes' will remain there!

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Two things.

PM. By and large I think we do have a right to expect that PM's should be privtae.

However, we also have a duty. That duty is not to send PM's that are abusive, rude, aggressive, dismissive or hurtful, especially to people we do not know except through being forum members.

If we want to engage in dialogue with others on contentious issues through the PM system then we have a duty to ask, may we debate this? Sending a hostile PM out of the blue is disrepectful and asking for trouble.

If the other person says, yes, that still does not allow us to forget good manners. I suspect that the Internet allows us to speak to others in a way that we would never dare speak to them face to face.

If we will not be careful in exercising our duties we cannot expect others to respect our rights.

 

[methodist.pilgrim.98]

Second issue.

What is this forum for?

It is for dealing with pilgrim's queries in the knowledge that pilgrimage involves body, mind and spirit.

I am certain that when I am physically ill it impacts upon my mind and my spirit. I am brought low by blisters, pain, tendonitus. When my feet are well, I'm good.

I have not suffered from mental illness but those whom I know have an illness that is as real as anything can be. This forum is definately a place for a discussion on whether pilgrimage is for people who suffer.

When I get blisters or foot problems I know how to cope, both from practical experience but also from tips picked up on this forum. I value people's input.

Why should we not extend the same courtesy and help to people whose illness may not be visible but is very real? It cannot be restricted to PM's because it then continues to remain hidden and the hiding is one of the problems that makes sufferers problems even worse.

On the Camino I have met people who were going to give up, not because they were physically injured but because their mental and spiritual health was battered. I have tried to help them to the best of my ability and we have had threads here where we have encouraged people to go on pilgrimage despite their mental and spiritual reservations.

It is as important for us to be able to support one another through mental and spiritual advice as it is through blisters and the way we get from Bilbao to SJPP.

Does that answer you're question Tracy?

 

[daesdaemar]

This thread bothers me. It seems much too judgmental...
People walk the Camino for many reasons and people "don't" walk the Camino for many reasons (I have known people to drive the Camino in an automobile and then brag about the dozens of sellos they've collected).
Likewise, this forum serves different purposes for different people. Some care for nothing more than to get a recommendation for a good pair of boots. Others want to deeply share their experience and those of others. Each to their own.
Bottom line is that it's a great forum. Participate for your own reasons. Don't worry about others unless they are being disruptive, and then the moderators will take care of the problem.

 

[Priscillian]

Debinq writes:
"I therefore put out a plea for an unambiguous stand-alone new topic label "Psychological aspects of 'pelegrinage' Can do Ivar? Where apposite material can be discussed- there must be heaps as shown by Sabine and that hugely positive SA fellow (posted under "Medical") .... plainly it would go along way to demystify, destigmatise and remove any 'taboo' that apparently causes many to tip=toe around the subject of mental health."

Surely NO! This is EXACTLY the sort of thing I wrote about which caused all the controversy in the first place. Again this marginalises (at the very least) the topic and keeps it all nice and tidy for those who don't want their backpack forum disturbed with ...disturbing things! I am not going to repeat myself here and I am TIRED of defending myself againstaccusationsof "disengenuousness" - Mental health issues ARE Medical Issues. That is FACT, not opinion. Psychological issues stem from faulty brain chemistry which can be assisted with medication (and behavioural and cognitive therepy) in exactly the same way as other more glaringly physical one.
The comment Debinq makes here really doesn't belong on this thread and neither does this reply.

The original post on the other thread asked simply whether the Camino could be recommended for people with depression and/or panic attacks. 20% of the readers surveying this thread qualify! (And I'm seriously wondering if there are a few with more servious issues!!!)

Mods: I started this. Now I am suggesting that unless posters can stick with the - very innocent - question that we lock it down?

 

[Priscillian]

Removed (by Priscillian) as no longer necessary.

 

[RENSHAW]

without breaking the creativity of this thread
id be interested to hear it from the administrator
or moderators
.
the question then being - under what circumstances
would they lock a thread
evict a member
edit out a post
.
that would probably give the outside parameters
then within that, all thats left is to remain relevant and kind
? maybe

My thread on Cyclists was locked due to an Ego issue where someone could just not behave like a Gentleman and had to put last say and ego first .....me thinks :mrgreen:

 

[RENSHAW]

Renshaw: with the very greatest of respect, I am trying to have the greatest of resepct both given and received. I've come under a lot of cristicism for defending another forum member and I am still rolling with the punches. I won't stop doing what I believe to be right. Whatever I might think in private, you don't do my case any good by this post above.
Maybe you might like to re-think it???
TS

Sorry Matron - but a spade is a spade - there was no intention in hurting those special souls like you on the Forum.

 

[Priscillian]

How did this thread get into "Miscellaneous about Santiago?" I didn't post it here... I posted in MISCELLANEOUS. Are there Gremlins out there too?
No need for duplication. Mods?

 

[David]

I think the 'problem' is more to do with the limitations of plain text. It isn't that there are subject boundaries not to be crossed but more how a thread can deteriorate into a slanging match. When it comes to differing points of view it is really fun over a bottle of wine or two where one can actually see the other person and pick up on all the nuances and laughter that are missed in text. The emoticons are there of course, and I use them in the hope that people will temper how they read what I write, but they don't really have that effect.

Anyone who has studied English will know of 'death of the author', basically that once a work is written and printed the author is separated from it and people will come to their own assumptions by internalising what they read and projecting their own mindset onto it. If Shakespeare, for instance, were here to take a degree level course in Shakespeare he would fail abysmally.

So if it is a simple reference to boots or bedbugs then there is no problem but if it is a subject that people hold strong opinions about then plain text is a difficult medium with which to get one's views across. Yes, it can be done in a book, but in a book one has hundreds of pages to lay out the whole argument, and there aren't any pages set aside for counter-arguments!

To pm when the issue is hotly contested is definitely the right way to go. Personally I have never sent a pm to anyone about "This is a backpack, shoes, poles, bed bugs, blisters and I had a wonderful experience forum" but I have sent messages asking for more information about something and also to ask others not to be rude and personal in threads.

I think the whole thing works rather well considering that we are an eclectic bunch of mainly strangers - the moderators work hard, we mostly have fun, people are helped, sometimes there is great laughter - I can think of one particular poster whose responses I wait for - he always makes me laugh like a drain, a clever mind (but a weird haircut :lol: ) (Note emoticon - laughing, meant with good will and camaraderie).

Just my point of view :wink: (note emoticon - wink, nothing horrid meant, just between friends etc)

 

[Priscillian]

I think the whole thing works rather well considering that we are an eclectic bunch of mainly strangers - the moderators work hard, we mostly have fun, people are helped, sometimes there is great laughter

I agree with David. I really do!

 

[David]

:wink:

 

[tyrrek]

There are so many good points on here that I relate to.

This is the first internet forum I've ever joined. I only ever read the forum before I left for the Camino (for boots, blisters advice etc), but didn't start writing on it until I got back. For me it is a way of enjoying my memories and experience, while (hopefully) providing advice and support for those who have still to enjoy their Camino. Also for 'meeting' people who already know and understand in their own, personal way what it means to undertake this pilgrimage.

I try to think carefully about what I'm writing, and re-read it before I press the 'submit' button. Even then I know that some of my posts have not been interpreted the way that they were intended, and I'm sure I've misinterpreted those of other members. As already noted, the strength of a forum like this is the relative anonymity that it gives people to ask 'silly' questions of others with more experience. The weakness is that you don't have the eye-to-eye contact.

 

[RENSHAW]

I think the 'problem' is more to do with the limitations of plain text. It isn't that there are subject boundaries not to be crossed but more how a thread can deteriorate into a slanging match. When it comes to differing points of view it is really fun over a bottle of wine or two where one can actually see the other person and pick up on all the nuances and laughter that are missed in text.

Mmmm - Think I may have had too much wine the other night and lost my Tolerance
Unconditional Apologia to all - mind you , for this thread only. :mrgreen: