What time is the service with the incense swing

[DeniseT]

hi, hearing so many variation should on the friday the weekly service happens with the swinging invent vase. I am 2 wks out of Santiago and keen to find out what time is it and is it in a Friday. I know we can pay to have the ceremony but would much rather be there for the whole service.
Thanks all in advance

Buen Camino

 

[Bradypus]

The botafumeiro is no longer used at every Friday evening mass. The cathedral publishes a list of dates when it will definitely be in use. Otherwise it is unpredictable and depends on whether a group or individual has made a special payment to the cathedral.
http://www.catedraldesantiago.es/en/node/482

 

[Deleted member 3000]

It can swing at any mass (or no mass). In the past you could show up toward the end of a mass. Now you must be in place at the start.

 

[SYates]

The Botafumeiro is used at the BEGINNING of the masses on the liturgical feast days mentioned here: http://www.catedraldesantiago.es/en/node/482

And at the END of any mass when somebody sponsored it.

Buen Camino, SY

 

[MileHighPair]

I would like to hear what other folks have found the ACTUAL frequency butafumeiro to be at the daily noon pilgrim mass. We have attended the noon pilgrim mass about a dozen times in the last 4 years and there has only been once when it did NOT swing. None of these days were feast days, or special in any way that we knew of. I know there is no guarantee on any given day (other than feast days), but my experience makes me think that on most days it does swing.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

In the past you could show up toward the end of a mass. Now you must be in place at the start.

Since when?

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I may be in the cranky minority, but I really like it this way. So much of the Camino is utterly random. This oughtta be, too. Programming it cheapens the experience; it turns into another banal tourist performance piece where the Mass is lost somewhere among the I-cameras and Booking dot Com.

 

[domigee]

Very much a minority but definitely cranky I'm part of it too

 

[SYates]

Count me into the Cranky Camino Crowd ;-) BC SY

 

[SabsP]

Ha Cranky is my middle name .

 

[t2andreo]

IMHO, here is no substitute for seeing the Botafumeiro "fly" after you have completed an arduous Camino, at least once. This is particularly the case if you are an observant Christian, or anyone who appreciates the history and traditions behind the use of this oversized censer.

However, and NOT trying to be snarky, you can easily see the Botafumeiro fly on You Tube. There are probably hundreds of videos shot by pilgrims and tourists available there. The only difference is that you are not THERE. Smell is optional too. The incense does have an odor...

This said, and counting myself in the "cranky crowd" as well, I will impart one piece of advice. As has been said already, the Cathedral sponsors using the Botafumeiro on Catholic holy days and other significant days as determined by the Archbishop. Again, as stated above, these dates ARE published in advance. You COULD plan your Camino around these dates.

Alternatively, I have found over five-years that determining if some large group or organization will be attending Mass at the Cathedral for some purpose or another is a very good indicator that the Botafumeiro will be used. For example, each June, the Spanish military holds a commemorative Mass, or several. The Botafumeiro is used.

Throughout "the season" (Easter to October) one pilgrim or tourist group, or another entity will pay to have the Botafumeiro used at a Mass the group attends. For example, a large group of pilgrims from a parish, civic organization, club, or pilgrim society will sponsor the Botafumeiro. If you can watch the local newspaper for upcoming events like this, it would also be a good indicator that the Botafumeiro. Conversely, a tourist company, having brought several hundred tourists into Santiago, might easily pay the cost to have the Botafumeiro used.

Just as an FYI, the six fellows who pull the ropes also clean and prepare the Botafumeiro for each use. They are lay people (non-religious) who must be paid. I was informed a couple of years ago, that the overall cost for all aspects of the Botafumeiro ceremony is about €400. This explains why the Cathedral is not able to afford to fly it everyday.

In previous years, the local hoteliers & restaurant association funded the Friday 19:30 Mass use of the Botafumeiro. Their reason was simple, people would come to Mass to see the Botafumeiro. Then these folks would eat in the hundreds of fine restaurants and stay in their hotels. However, and as indicated by one posted above, this practice has apparently been discontinued. So, we are back to chaos theory and chance...

If anyone has the straight story on the Friday evening use issue, please contribute it to the dialog. I will return to work as a volunteer for a month at the Pilgrim Office, in three weeks. When I arrive, I will certainly learn the current state of affairs. But, knowing sooner, and in the forum, would help others.

I hope this helps.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

If anyone has the straight story on the Friday evening use issue, please contribute it to the dialog.

I thought a Galician doctor now living in the South of Spain is now paying for the Friday evening swing. Has this changed?

 

[t2andreo]

News to me! Does anyone have more specific information?

I had heard that (about the doctor) some months ago as well.

 

[SYates]

I thought a Galician doctor now living in the South of Spain is now paying for the Friday evening swing. Has this changed?

Yes it has changed, he is not any longer doing this according to a nun I spoke with at the cathedral. Buen Camino, SY

 

[Bradypus]

I thought a Galician doctor now living in the South of Spain is now paying for the Friday evening swing. Has this changed?

The cathedral's own website says that the botafumeiro will not be used at the Friday 19:30 mass "until further notice". It was widely reported that Doctor Leonardo Nortes had offered to pay for it to continue after commercial sponsorship had ended. However, I do not recall ever seeing any confirmation that the Cathedral had accepted the doctor's offer.
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...afumeiro-19-30-friday-mass.45019/#post-473528

 

[MileHighPair]

I guess it's easy to be cranky if you have already seen the Botufumeiro swing once or even several times before and/or live so close that you can go see it on the fixed liturgical feast days if you wanted to and/or know that you can visit again any time soon. Please have some empathy for @DeniseT from Australia who I believe is going to visit Santiago for the first time ... . And didn't it swing for the pilgrims of old every day ... ?

Good to hear from you again and buena suerte to @DeniseT .

Thanks for the reminder. I think of the lady who was sitting next to us at mass in 2016. She had walked the entire Camino Frances in honor of her niece, and was already emotional from all of those feelings. When she realized that the butafumiero would swing, it was obvious that it meant a great deal to her and the tears flowed. If this is a once in a lifetime event for a person, then missing it would be disappointing.

On the other hand, I agree with other comments that we do not want to turn the Cathedral or the city into any more of a circus that it already is. Considering the challenge of the millions of visitors each year, I think they do a pretty good job.
Mike.

 

[domigee]

I guess it's easy to be cranky if you have already seen the Botufumeiro swing once or even several times before and/or live so close that you can go see it on the fixed liturgical feast days if you wanted to and/or know that you can visit again any time soon.

@Katharina, as a tentative apology for all the cranky ones on here... I see the botafumeiro as a BONUS. If it swings, woh, wonderful. If it doesn't, it doesn't! EXPECTING it to swing is - in my eyes - the problem....The Camino is no Disneyland

Sorry if this is off topic and it certainly is not meant to disrespect the OP

 

[domigee]

I don't see that anyone indicated in this thread that they were expecting it to swing for them at a certain day and for free (to them). .

Point taken.
Told you I was cranky!

 

[jmcarp]

I may be in the cranky minority, but I really like it this way. So much of the Camino is utterly random. This oughtta be, too. Programming it cheapens the experience; it turns into another banal tourist performance piece where the Mass is lost somewhere among the I-cameras and Booking dot Com.

Well said, Rebekah. The Botafumeiro has become something of a secular icon associated with a pilgrim's arrival in Santiago, much in the same way that many now see the Camino experience as "incomplete" unless they continue on to Finisterre and/or Muxia. All pilgrims--regardless or spiritual or religious beliefs--would be wise to understand the significance of incense in general and the Botafumeiro in particular in the Catholic liturgy. This quote from the Cathedral's website explains it well:
"The Botafumeiro is used for liturgical reasons, in the same way as a priest would use a censer at the altar. It operates during the Cathedral's main solemnities during the entrance procession or at the end of the Eucharist. The purpose of this great censer is to symbolise the true attitude of the believer. In the same way that the smoke from the incense rises to the top of the temple's naves, so must the prayers of the pilgrims rise to reach the heart of God. And in the same manner that the aroma of the incense perfumes the entire basilica, so must Christians, with their virtues and the testimony of their lives, impregnate with the good scent of Christ, the society that they live in."

 

[Deleted member 3000]

This quote from the Cathedral's website explains it well:

That is a bit coy! If it were completely about the symbolism, the hand-held thurible would do quite nicely. It is a "show" by the Catheral, and I don't see any reason for them to be ashamed of that. It can be designed as a show and still be an important part of the solemnity of the mass.

 

[jmcarp]

That is a bit coy! If it were completely about the symbolism, the hand-held thurible would do quite nicely. It is a "show" by the Catheral, and I don't see any reason for them to be ashamed of that. It can be designed as a show and still be an important part of the solemnity of the mass.

Yes, you could perhaps say that it is a bit (or maybe more than a bit) of a show. I'm not sure what you mean by "them" being ashamed of it, though. I was merely attempting to make those not familiar with the use of incense in the Catholic liturgy to understand the meaning behind it. I doubt that anyone beyond the first few rows of pews would be able to see a hand-held thurible.

 

[HikingGeo]

hi, hearing so many variation should on the friday the weekly service happens with the swinging invent vase. I am 2 wks out of Santiago and keen to find out what time is it and is it in a Friday. I know we can pay to have the ceremony but would much rather be there for the whole service.
Thanks all in advance

Buen Camino

We caught it on back to back masses on a Saturday in May. Double treat for us. Masses were 10:45 and noonish.

 

[alaskadiver]

It swung at the beginning of our noon mass on Sunday May 28th when we attended. But they were displaying something during the processional. I never quite saw what it was from where I was sitting. SYates told me that was the reason it swung at the beginning of our mass and not the end. The Cathedral was packed to the rim with tourists from several tour buses. It was a nice mass but the huge crowd was a total turn off for us. I don't see myself returning to that church for mass the next time I'm in Santiago.

 

[SYates]

... I don't see myself returning to that church for mass the next time I'm in Santiago.

Just choose one of the other mass times and not the 12:00 one ;-) the others tend to be much quieter! http://www.catedraldesantiago.es/es/horarios-misas
Buen Camino, SY

 

[christy wharton]

I would like to hear what other folks have found the ACTUAL frequency butafumeiro to be at the daily noon pilgrim mass. We have attended the noon pilgrim mass about a dozen times in the last 4 years and there has only been once when it did NOT swing. None of these days were feast days, or special in any way that we knew of. I know there is no guarantee on any given day (other than feast days), but my experience makes me think that on most days it does swing.

wrong, it swings when a group pay to have it done outside of the feast days. The 5-6 people who operate the device have to be available and may have to get off their normal work etc. They have lives too. I am just back and I did not see it swing 0ver quite a few masses but I have seen it before.

 

[MichaelSG]

I would like to hear what other folks have found the ACTUAL frequency butafumeiro to be at the daily noon pilgrim mass. We have attended the noon pilgrim mass about a dozen times in the last 4 years and there has only been once when it did NOT swing. None of these days were feast days, or special in any way that we knew of. I know there is no guarantee on any given day (other than feast days), but my experience makes me think that on most days it does swing.

That has been close to my experience too, except that our dozen times at the masses have been in three Santiago Caminos over five years, rather than over four years and include some masses earlier on Sundays - I only recall two masses when the botafumeiro wasn't used. Maybe we are just lucky but I appreciate the folk who paid for it.

wrong, it swings when a group pay to have it done outside of the feast days. The 5-6 people who operate the device have to be available and may have to get off their normal work etc. They have lives too. I am just back and I did not see it swing 0ver quite a few masses but I have seen it before.

What is "wrong"?

 

[Gillean]

My experience has been that if you go into the cathedral an hour or so before the mass and the botafumiero is hanging, it will swing. If it isn't hanging it won't. Trying to predict whether it will swing or not much further in advance seems to be a mug's game. I think there is a good chance at the 1200 mass in the summertime if there are cruise ship bus tours arriving from the coast. It may well be a selling point for the bus tours that the tourists will get to see the botafumiero swing so the tour agencies will pony up for the cost. I don't think the church will publish dates or times for the botafumiero other than special feast or saint's days. It would certainly be counterproductive to getting a good turnout for masses if they announced that the botafumiero would not swing.

 

[HedaP]

Both times I’ve walked the CF, by some mystical circumstance the pilgrim grapevine has always known when the botafumiero will swing. For anyone walking in future, listen to your fellow peregrinos. Of course the pilgrim grapevine is not always correct but it often is. And if it should be correct, listen to above advice from @Gillean and get to the cathedral to find a seat at least an hour before the service starts.

 

[Marge666]

IMHO, here is no substitute for seeing the Botafumeiro "fly" after you have completed an arduous Camino, at least once. This is particularly the case if you are an observant Christian, or anyone who appreciates the history and traditions behind the use of this oversized censer.

However, and NOT trying to be snarky, you can easily see the Botafumeiro fly on You Tube. There are probably hundreds of videos shot by pilgrims and tourists available there. The only difference is that you are not THERE. Smell is optional too. The incense does have an odor...

This said, and counting myself in the "cranky crowd" as well, I will impart one piece of advice. As has been said already, the Cathedral sponsors using the Botafumeiro on Catholic holy days and other significant days as determined by the Archbishop. Again, as stated above, these dates ARE published in advance. You COULD plan your Camino around these dates.

Alternatively, I have found over five-years that determining if some large group or organization will be attending Mass at the Cathedral for some purpose or another is a very good indicator that the Botafumeiro will be used. For example, each June, the Spanish military holds a commemorative Mass, or several. The Botafumeiro is used.

Throughout "the season" (Easter to October) one pilgrim or tourist group, or another entity will pay to have the Botafumeiro used at a Mass the group attends. For example, a large group of pilgrims from a parish, civic organization, club, or pilgrim society will sponsor the Botafumeiro. If you can watch the local newspaper for upcoming events like this, it would also be a good indicator that the Botafumeiro. Conversely, a tourist company, having brought several hundred tourists into Santiago, might easily pay the cost to have the Botafumeiro used.

Just as an FYI, the six fellows who pull the ropes also clean and prepare the Botafumeiro for each use. They are lay people (non-religious) who must be paid. I was informed a couple of years ago, that the overall cost for all aspects of the Botafumeiro ceremony is about €400. This explains why the Cathedral is not able to afford to fly it everyday.

In previous years, the local hoteliers & restaurant association funded the Friday 19:30 Mass use of the Botafumeiro. Their reason was simple, people would come to Mass to see the Botafumeiro. Then these folks would eat in the hundreds of fine restaurants and stay in their hotels. However, and as indicated by one posted above, this practice has apparently been discontinued. So, we are back to chaos theory and chance...

If anyone has the straight story on the Friday evening use issue, please contribute it to the dialog. I will return to work as a volunteer for a month at the Pilgrim Office, in three weeks. When I arrive, I will certainly learn the current state of affairs. But, knowing sooner, and in the forum, would help others.

I hope this helps.

I know this original posting was 5 years ago BUT I wondered if there is a link to find out the dates of the "swing" please. Thanks

 

[Vacajoe]

I know this original posting was 5 years ago BUT I wondered if there is a link to find out the dates of the "swing" please. Thanks

It is part of the traditional Catholic Mass at the Cathedral in Santiago. The only guaranteed days it will be used is on official Church Holy Days celebrated by the diocese. At other times, it’s use may be sponsored by visiting pilgrim groups, but those occurrences are not publicized and you will not know until it is actually put into use.

 

[t2andreo]

Even if they knew in advance, the people at the Pilgrim Office who coordinate subscriptions (paying) to have the Botafumeiro used at particular Masses NEVER tell anyone. When I am volunteering there, the sole clue is when two or three of the staff quietly close up shop and leave for the Cathedral slightly after noon. These fellows are among the eight tirabuleiros (the rope pullers) for the ceremony.

I have been working there every year since 2014, sans 2020 for COVID, and I can never get advance knowledge. So, if you are not there for Mass on a major Catholic solemnity or Holy Day, you just need to have faith.

That said, if you go to You Tube and search for Botafumeiro, Santiago de Compostela, you will find dozens of videos of the ceremony recorded by irreverent pilgrims. Incidentally, this is precisely why the ceremony was moved from the start of the Mass where it would be traditionally, and after the Mass has formally ended. Once the ceremony starts, all control over the spectators is lost.

Hope this helps.

Tom

 

[David Tallan]

Even if they knew in advance, the people at the Pilgrim Office who coordinate subscriptions (paying) to have the Botafumeiro used at particular Masses NEVER tell anyone. When I am volunteering there, the sole clue is when two or three of the staff quietly close up shop and leave for the Cathedral slightly after noon. These fellows are among the eight tirabuleiros (the rope pullers) for the ceremony.

I have been working there every year since 2014, sans 2020 for COVID, and I can never get advance knowledge. So, if you are not there for Mass on a major Catholic solemnity or Holy Day, you just need to have faith.

That said, if you go to You Tube and search for Botafumeiro, Santiago de Compostela, you will find dozens of videos of the ceremony recorded by irreverent pilgrims. Incidentally, this is precisely why the ceremony was moved from the start of the Mass where it would be traditionally, and after the Mass has formally ended. Once the ceremony starts, all control over the spectators is lost.

Hope this helps.

Tom

They can't post a schedule because, in addition to the very few days that they know it will be used, it is also used whenever an individual or group pays the cost to have it swung.

I guess one advantage of never telling anyone is that they might get multiple groups to pay that cost for swinging in the same mass.

 

[Flog]

They can't post a schedule because, in addition to the very few days that they know it will be used, it is also used whenever an individual or group pays the cost to have it swung.

I guess one advantage of never telling anyone is that they might get multiple groups to pay that cost for swinging in the same mass.

And multiple groups would all get the same front pews? They don't post a schedule simply because if they did, and everybody knew, the botafumeiro masses would be overwhelmed (and perhaps the non botafumeiro masses, underwhelmed).

 

[Scott Sweeney]

Count me into the Cranky Camino Crowd ;-) BC SY

Count me in also.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

I know this original posting was 5 years ago BUT I wondered if there is a link to find out the dates of the "swing" please. Thanks

The Botafumeiro operates during the following Solemnities:

• The Epiphany: 6 January
• Resurrection Sunday
• The Apparition of the Apostle-Clavijo: 23 May
• pentecost
• The Martyrdom of Saint James: 25 July
• The Assumption of Mary: 15 August
• All Saints: 1 November
• Christ the King
• The Immaculate Conception: 8 December
• Christmas: December 25
• Transfer of the remains of the Apostle: 30 December

 

[Kathar1na]

Not too long ago, the Cathedral started live streaming from the Cathedral. This is in addition to the two webcams of the Galician TV that show views from the central and lateral naves.

Live streaming of the pilgrim mass works great. Occasionally the server or network is down or switched off. Quality of sound and image are excellent.

Although all four of the daily masses at 7:30, 9:30, 12:00 and 19:30 are labelled as Misa del Peregrino, they appear to be a bit different. At noon and in the evening, the Cathedral is packed and some people appear not to have a seat - or perhaps they just want to stand near the front.

At the 7:30 mass, the Cathedral is next to empty, I had a look this morning and counted a mere 7 people on the pews in the transept! Similar at 9:30, only 10-12 people there.

Outside, there is now also a CRTVG webcam that shows the Praza da Quintana and the entry to the Holy Door. There was no queue when I had a look yesterday.

 

[Kathar1na]

Links:

Livestream of pilgrim masses:

• http://catedraldesantiago.es/retransmision-en-directo/

Webcams inside of the Cathedral:

• lateral nave:
  http://www.crtvg.es/crtvg/camaras-web/catedral-nave-lateral
  
  
• central nave:
  http://www.crtvg.es/crtvg/camaras-web/catedral-de-santiago-nave-central

Webcams outside of the Cathedral:

• Praza do Obraidoiro (main square)
  http://www.crtvg.es/crtvg/camaras-web/praza-do-obradoiro
  
  
• Praza das Praterias (main entrance if you want to enter the Cathedral)
  http://www.crtvg.es/crtvg/camaras-web/praza-das-praterias
  
  
• Praza da Quintana (Holy Door entrance)
  http://www.crtvg.es/crtvg/camaras-web/praza-da-quintana

 

[KJFSophie]

I might join in with the 'cranky' group. Knowing the schedule ahead of time creates a circus, pilgrims and tourists not interested in the mass at all with cameras ready and clicking as if a show was taking place. Having said that, I've been fortunate to witness this event several times and it was very emotional. I have also witnessed the huge disappointment of a walking companion who did not get to experience this unique ritual after completing the walk of a lifetime. This year, I've such limited time in Santiago before returning home that I'm already preparing my walking companions for the likelihood that we won't see this. On the one hand, knowing ahead creates a circus, on the other, not being able to plan creates a bit of anxiety and disappointment, especially for first time pilgrims.

 

[Kathar1na]

Knowing the schedule ahead of time creates a circus, pilgrims and tourists not interested in the mass at all with cameras ready and clicking as if a show was taking place

I've recently watched a few pilgrim masses online. Yesterday evening (May 23) was one of the days where one of those masses was held where it is known beforehand that the Botafumeiro will swing. It was not any different from other days: When the censer starts to swing, the smartphones are held up and start to record.

If pilgrims don't want any of this they ought to go to the Misa del peregrino at 7:30 or 9:30 when there are plenty of empty seats in the pews and no action. But of course most of them don't. Many if not most of them hope to see the Botafumeiro swing and going at 12:00 or 19:30 optimises their chances and many if not most will know it.

The Cathedral authority does not publicly announce when the censer swings because why should they bother with making such daily announcements. I personally would not interpret much meaning into this. Perhaps the answer is simple: "We've never done this in the past, why should we start doing it now?"

 

[Dani7]

They can't post a schedule because, in addition to the very few days that they know it will be used, it is also used whenever an individual or group pays the cost to have it swung.

I guess one advantage of never telling anyone is that they might get multiple groups to pay that cost for swinging in the same mass.

Any idea of how much that cost is?

 

[Bradypus]

Any idea of how much that cost is?

According to another post earlier this month it costs €450

Post in thread 'Botafumeio' https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/botafumeio.74811/post-1029873

 

[Kathar1na]

A Santiago based blog writes that they contacted the Oficina del Peregrino recently to ask how much it would cost for a small family group. They shared the answer as follows (translation):

1.- The cost of the Botafumeiro flight for a family group is 450€ to be paid by bank transfer.​

​

2.- When booking the Botafumeiro, they reserve 2 benches with a capacity for 4 to 5 people each.​

​

We asked if there was the possibility of reserving more space, even if we had to pay more, and they told us that the Cabildo of the Cathedral did not allow it.​

​

By the way, as a bit of gossip, we had been told on another occasion that if a group has a priest to concelebrate the mass it is a little cheaper and that if it is arranged for on behalf of a medical, tourist or pharmaceutical congress, etc. ... it is much more expensive.​

 

[Kathar1na]

I'm a little surprised to see how empty the Cathedral is every day at the time of the Misa del Peregrino at 7:30 and 9:30. The left transept that is fully visible in one of the webcams has several dozens of seats, perhaps 80-100 in total. Only 3 of them were occupied at the first mass today and only 8 at the second mass right now at 9:30. And if I understood correctly I think that the priest has just announced the name of the person who is going to offer the Botafumeiro ...

PS: Yes, indeed, at 9:30 in the morning in a largely empty Cathedral, the Botufumeiro is made to swing so that, as the priest announced, el incienso se lleva a Dios - incense may rise like our prayers may rise to God ... the meaning of this century-old tradition.

 

[Former member 49149]

I'm a little surprised to see how empty the Cathedral is every day at the time of the Misa del Peregrino at 7:30 and 9:30. The left transept that is fully visible in one of the webcams has several dozens of seats, perhaps 80-100 in total. Only 3 of them were occupied at the first mass today and only 8 at the second mass right now at 9:30. And if I understood correctly I think that the priest has just announced the name of the person who is going to offer the Botafumeiro ...

Thank you again, your attention to fact and detail allowed me to catch the swinging of the Botafumeiro just now. A welcome moment of reflection in a busy morning. I have noted the website for the masses.

 

[Kathar1na]

Thank you again, your attention to fact and detail allowed me to catch the swinging of the Botafumeiro just now. A welcome moment of reflection in a busy morning.

At first, I was intrigued by this new live streaming option that the Cathedral had announced in their newsletter. Then I got interested in some technicalities. Today I tried to pay more attention to the sermon. The spoken Spanish is clear and relatively slow but my Spanish is not good enough to allow me to follow easily and understand everything. And at the end, as I mentioned already, I caught this: el incienso se lleva a Dios [something something] oracion ... words and meaning that may sometimes get lost in all this quest to know dates and times in an effort to be there 'at the right time' ...