What's so special about SJPP?

[WGroleau]

I think that there are a number of reasons for the place that SJPP has gained in contemporary Camino walking. In no particular order:

• [nice list skipped]

There are probably more reasons of this sort. I would not look too far into the past when searching for plausible explanations.

In my opinion, the three biggest reasons are that SJPdP gets the most “press,” that most people start there, and that the facilities are the to support that. And each of these reasons tends to increase the others in a circular fashion.

 

[Barbara]

I don't understand. Maybe we are talking about different paths?

I was referring to the path(s) or way(s) as they are described in Book V of the Codex Calixtinus, commonly known nowadays as the Pilgrim's Guide, and the blueprint for today's Camino Francés. That's what Elias Valiñas and the Camino pioneers from the Paris association and the Estella association and other early walkers in the 1960s-1980s used as their guiding line. In this 12th century document, various towns in France are mentioned, also Geneva, and these are mostly places with important relics of various saints and should be visited for this reason, but there is no detailed description for travelling to or through these places.

The detailed description of a way to Santiago with a long list of towns, villages and a few 'hospitals' (albergues) covers only what we know today as the Camino Francés, with its two initial "arms", known today as Camino Aragonés and Camino Navarro, although the latter name is rarely used and not widely known. In the medieval document, this detailed description starts with the names of villages/towns in the northern foothills/parts of the western end of the Pyrenees, i.e. in the wider SJPP and Somport areas.

BTW, there are easily accessible copies of the original text in Latin and of various translations into French, Spanish and English on the web. It's best to read the Latin version because of the sometimes liberal translation of geographical names. One English translation for example uses "Camino de Santiago" which is of course an expression that did not exist in this sense in the Middle Ages! But all this has already been mentioned earlier in the thread ...

Yes, thank you. I have actually read it, many years ago, though I struggled with the Latin and ended up reading a translation in parallel. I was just being a little (I thought) humorous. Maybe I should have used some smileys? I was simply playing on the idea of the Camino starting from home. Parthenay is where, as I am sure you know, the writer lived. The whole codex is a significant work, of course, of which the route description is quite a small part. Paizay le Sec is where I used to live, and could well have been used as a stop by pilgrims, it's old enough and in a suitable place, but despite the Mayor being convinced of this, the only proof he has is that it's where I started on my first Camino. Saint Savin, 5 km from my current home, has definite Camino links. An eastern variant of the Tours route, to be precise. There is a guide available to download from the Confraternity of Saint James, which I do know something about, as I actually collated rather a lot of information from various pilgrim associations in order to write it. Probably best to cycle it as there isn't much infrastructure.
I still maintain that if you tried to use the codex as an actual guide you would find it difficult, even if the tracks still existed and weren't covered by tarmac.

 

[David Tallan]

I'll put my oar in here and say not all that much detail, as far as the route goes. Anyway, it starts in Antigny in the Vienne. Must do, that's where I live. Or possibly Paizay le sec, where I used to live. Or Canterbury, because why not? Or Parthenay.

Certainly people's personal Caminos can start in these spots. But this post isn't asking about people's personal Caminos but rather the shared route: the Camino Frances (as distinguished from the Camino Portugues, the Via de la Plata, the Camino Primitivo, and all the other Camino routes). I'm not sure why you suggest the Camino Frances might start in Canterbury.

 

[Barbara]

Certainly people's personal Caminos can start in these spots. But this post isn't asking about people's personal Caminos but rather the shared route: the Camino Frances (as distinguished from the Camino Portugues, the Via de la Plata, the Camino Primitivo, and all the other Camino routes). I'm not sure why you suggest the Camino Frances might start in Canterbury.

Because, although it's a more recent pilgrimage there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't, and I was trying to make the point that this discussion hasn't got a point....That's where the community of walkers has decided it starts so that's the way it is. Plus there was rather a good book written using the Thomas à Beckett pilgrimage as its framework. So, having gone even further off topic I will leave you all with

"
Whan that Aprille with his shoures soote,
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licóur
Of which vertú engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours y-ronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open ye,
So priketh hem Natúre in hir corages,
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages,
And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
And specially, from every shires ende
Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,
The hooly blisful martir for to seke,
That hem hath holpen whan that they were seeke."

Because on Tuesday I'm being even more unreasonable and starting a Camino Santiago in Worcester after a short holiday in the UK. By bike. With bell. Bye bye for now.

 

[Kathar1na]

Certainly people's personal Caminos can start in these spots.

Thank you, @David Tallan, I think that we have a thread about this topic elsewhere. It is the epic The Camino does NOT start in SJPdP - discuss thread, started by @Tincatinker in September 2019, 439 posts so far, and still open for discussion - yeah .

I myself followed the principle of setting out for Santiago from my front door, fashioned after the medieval tradition. But I am not a medieval pilgrim with medieval beliefs and medieval means and a medieval life and so I had no qualms about doing what so many of my co-peregrin@s do today: travelling to Santiago and back in instalments. On foot and by boat in my case. In fact, I’ve still not finished the coming home part and I intend to cover some 20 km of this part on foot today.

But as mentioned, this thread is more about why did the way that we know as Camino Francés, the most popular of the revived or recreated Caminos, acquire SJPP as its starting point, which has now become a traditional starting point for so many peregrin@s from around the world.

 

[Kathar1na]

That hem hath holpen whan that they were seeke."

And four lines later it reads:

At nyght was come into that hostelrye​

Wel nyne and twenty in a compaignye​

Would that be the late medieval version of a Camino family or of a Camino bus tour group?

 

[David Tallan]

And four lines later it reads:

At nyght was come into that hostelrye​

Wel nyne and twenty in a compaignye​

Would that be the late medieval version of a Camino family or of a Camino bus tour group?

I think a Camino bus tour group. After all, they were all riding. They had a tour operator and guide who was organizing things, even ways for them to amuse themselves en route, if I recall correctly.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I think a Camino bus tour group. After all, they were all riding. They had a tour operator and guide who was organizing things, even ways for them to amuse themselves en route, if I recall correctly.

Mediaeval equivalent of a bike pilgrims Camino family.

Those ad hoc companies formed at certain crossroads where pilgrims from multiple towns an villages would congregate, for geographical and infrastructural necessaries -- bridges in particular.

That the most experienced pilgrim in a Camino family should emerge as a guide and leader and helper is quite natural -- even in similar circumstance into this 21st Century.

 

[David Tallan]

Mediaeval equivalent of a bike pilgrims Camino family.

Those ad hoc companies formed at certain crossroads where pilgrims from multiple towns an villages would congregate, for geographical and infrastructural necessaries -- bridges in particular.

That the most experienced pilgrim in a Camino family should emerge as a guide and leader and helper is quite natural -- even in similar circumstance into this 21st Century.

I would totally agree with you except that I seem to recall that the "leader" wasn't just one of the pilgrims who happened to meet up, but rather "our host" who was professionally employed in the tourism and hospitality industry, and so more like a tour operator.

If I am misremembering, I withdraw this exception.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I would totally agree with you except that I seem to recall that the "leader" wasn't just one of the pilgrims who happened to meet up, but rather "our host" who was professionally employed in the tourism and hospitality industry, and so more like a tour operator.

If I am misremembering, I withdraw this exception.

Decided to check in my copy of the Riverside Chaucer -- really should re-read it.

In Southwark at the Tabard as I lay
Ready to wenden on my pilgrymage
To Caunterbury with ful devout corage,
At nyght was come into that hostelrye
Of nyne and twenty in a compaignye
Of sondry folk, by adventure yfalle
In felaweshipe, and pilgrimes were they alle,
That toward Caunterbury wolden ryde.

So it's a chance meeting or ad hoc group.

I won't quote it at length, but "Our Hooste" is clearly equivalent to a Hospitalero.

But inspired by their pilgrimage, he decides to ride with them, and for the soul of his dead father, offering also to act as their guide.

And Southwark was indeed immediately south of London Bridge -- so pretty much I was right, not an organised group, but an ad hoc Camino family coming together at a bridge -- including two sub-groups around the Knight and the Prioress, and some others that had come there in pairs.

 

[Ricardo Moretti]

Okay, so my title is intentionally a little provocative but the question is a serious one.
Why does the Camino Frances begin in SJPP?

It does NOT but it is a popular starting point.

 

[Kathar1na]

It does NOT but it is a popular starting point.

The walking trail that was created, waymarked and promoted as the "pilgrimage road to Santiago" in the latter half of the 20th century and that is commonly known as the Camino Francés has its starting point in SJPP nowadays. Very obviously, it does not mean that everybody and their dog have to start there for it to be a meaningful experience!

"Camino Francés" is a label that stands for a century old major communication and trade road that connected Spain with France and neighbouring countries. It is quite unique due to its cultural-historical significance in this context. I guess that for the global traveller who flies to Pamplona via Madrid and then takes the taxi to Saint Jean Pied de Port this is not so obvious but it is this significance and uniqueness, as well as the skills of local, regional and national politicians who made, and still make, use of this unique asset that led to the current Camino boom that has now spread to other trails in Spain and elsewhere - not only in Europe but worldwide.

 

[Kathar1na]

While looking for something else, I came across an informative website that has a chapter about "From medieval itineraries to walking trails". May be of interest for those who see a point in talking about "history and heritage" ...

A few quotes (from their point of view and based on their level of knowledge):

• The pilgrimage to Compostela belongs to the Christian tradition, but its renewal over the past thirty years stands as a reaction to the excesses of our individualist, hyper-technological and ultra-consumerist Western society. This reaction, above and beyond religious dogmas and the mistrust which they engender, reflects a need to be rooted in tradition, and shows that spiritual quest is alive and well. It also expresses the need to be part of a community with others, and to test oneself at a slower pace.
  
  [...] modern facilities for fast travel have turned walking from a daily need into a leisure activity and pursuit of well-being. The success of the Camino de Santiago itinerary is an example of this: long-distance walking gains a meaning by being part of a tradition, following routes laden with collective memories, in a spirit of openness to others and of finding oneself.
  
  
• Obviously, routes specially intended for pilgrims never existed in the Middle Ages, at least not in France. Nevertheless, material or financial donations for building a bridge took on a pious dimension by facilitating a river crossing for pilgrims for example. Pilgrims were a significant part of the traffic on these roads. Pilgrims would choose the safest route and, on leaving their home, would get on to the major routes where they would find albergues and other accommodation, the protection of town walls at night, and alms if needed.

(continued in next post ...)

 

[Kathar1na]

(More from "From medieval itineraries to walking trails"):

• In the Middle Ages, the "St. James' Ways" or "Caminos de Santiago" did not exist. Pilgrims used the usual itineraries to get from A to B and they were road users just like any other traveller.
  
  
• Drawing maps of "pilgrim roads" means simplifying and condensing into one single version a historic reality which had been changing constantly. This was done in the 20th century, based on Book V of the Codex Calixtinus [today known as "Pilgrim's Guide"]. This 12th century manuscript lies at the origin of the contemporary Camino to Santiago.
  
  
• It is up to those who walk the paths today to delve into the history books in search of this universe, and to encounter these humble devotions and local traditions for themselves. Nowadays, the signposted Ways to Santiago de Compostela are an invitation to push open church doors to meet with History…

Please note before you grasp a single sentence or single word to prove me wrong : These are quotes, slightly modified for better understanding, of the English webpages of the site https://www.chemins-compostelle.com/ that have clearly been translated from French. Pay attention to the CONTEXT and to the original text. Bonne lecture.

 

[Kathar1na]

Just puzzling over this ... the website https://www.chemins-compostelle.com/ also writes that proper guidebooks for pilgrims and other travellers became only available after printing had been developed, i.e. after 1450 when the medieval period ended and when the period of medieval pilgrimage traditions had largely come to an end, too. The 12th century "Pilgrim's Guide" is just another singularity in this context. The website has a copy from a page from such a guidebook for the way from Arles.

I can see that it describes the way in/of Navarra: Saint-Palais to Ostabat; to SJPP; to Roncesvalles; to ???; to Pamplona; to Puente la Reina; and so on.

What does Rassima (???) stand for?

 

[dick bird]

As to the Oloron to Canfranc train line, there is an ongoing project and plan to reopen it -- that's years in the future

A very long time, I fear. The new road up the Vallee D'Aspe seems to have cut through a lot of the engineering work of the railway line so it would mean rebuilding bridges, embankments etc etc at astronomic cost.

 

[Pafayac]

On the website shown by @Kathar1na the following sentence should be noticed:
"The rich and fascinating history of these devotions and sanctuaries confirms their importance. Destinations in their own right, one cannot reduce them all to the status of a mere staging-post on the way to the prestigious sanctuary of Saint James in Galicia."
Indeed, local sanctuaries, which were target of pilgrimages has often been embedded in the Camino, despite the fact there were "destinations in their own right".
For those who read french, here follows an URL telling what buildings has been wrongly related to Saint James way, namely when promoting it for Unesco:
World Heritage Property 868 from 1998 to 2018

 

[JabbaPapa]

Obviously, routes specially intended for pilgrims never existed in the Middle Ages, at least not in France.

That's actually not quite true -- they were rare, but some local roads in the environs of some minor pilgrimage destinations came into existence because of those pilgrimages.

So there were very few of such roads, and they were short and local, but some did exist.

Nevertheless, what you say about there being no Camino de Santiago different to the normal road network is 100% correct. Nor was there even a singular Francès route in that network, but there were instead some more or less definite traditional itineraries and multiple variants in every portion of it -- except for the necessary congregation points at bridges, cities, and so on -- which, truth be told, is the same today, despite the massive dominance of "the" "official" route ...

 

[Kathar1na]

https://www.chemins-compostelle.com/ has some quite good information for those who are interested in knowing what is established old myth or modern myth and what reflects reality. A few more quotes:

• The idea of the 4 Ways to Compostela, each one with its specific departure point (Paris/Tours, Le Puy, Vezelay, Arles), is a purely modern idea.
  
  
• The development of rambling (walking in nature for leisure, hiking leisurely) as a popular activity from the 1950's onwards inspired the idea of re-establishing the mediaeval tradition. In a world dominated by cars, the creation of footpaths enabled ramblers' itineraries to be made safe.
  
  
• From 1970 onwards, the St. James itineraries inspired by the 12th century manuscript (dubbed "Pilgrim's Guide") and mapped out on the basis of itineraries suggested by historians were implemented in the form of footpaths. The routes they follow, a guarantee of convenience and security, are a compromise between history and present-day reality. It is a question of avoiding tarmac roads, cars and private property, of taking into account availability of accommodation and the esthetic interest of places along the way.

This is actually a good point: a guarantee of convenience and security. Isn't it a bit of an illusion when we think of walking the Camino Francés as walking into the big unknown, where the universe unfolds as it should, where we don't know where we put our head tonight? We are walking in a populated cultural landscape, with lists of albergues, satellite-guided maps, instant online access to spot-on information and either the physical capabilities to walk on a few more kilometres or the security of a credit card or a handful of euros that will guarantee a bus trip or a taxi trip to our bed for the night.

 

[JabbaPapa]

From 1970 onwards, the St. James itineraries inspired by the 12th century manuscript (dubbed "Pilgrim's Guide") and mapped out on the basis of itineraries suggested by historians were implemented in the form of footpaths. The routes they follow, a guarantee of convenience and security, are a compromise between history and present-day reality. It is a question of avoiding tarmac roads, cars and private property, of taking into account availability of accommodation and the esthetic interest of places along the way.

This is actually a good point: a guarantee of convenience and security. Isn't it a bit of an illusion when we think of walking the Camino Francés as walking into the big unknown, where the universe unfolds as it should, where we don't know where we put our head tonight? We are walking in a populated cultural landscape, with lists of albergues, satellite-guided maps, instant online access to spot-on information and either the physical capabilities to walk on a few more kilometres or the security of a credit card or a handful of euros that will guarantee a bus trip or a taxi trip to our bed for the night.

No such guarantees on half of my 1994 ; a good portion of my 2005 ; and significantly more than half of my 2019 - 2021 - 2022-23.

I've spoken to pilgrims who did theirs in the 1950s and 1960s, and most of the French portion of my 1994 and the pre-Arles portion of my 2005 was quite like theirs -- waking every morning with no idea what the day would bring.

And very long sections of this latest were very similar indeed to my earlier ones.

 

[Barbara]

https://www.chemins-compostelle.com/ has some quite good information for those who are interested in knowing what is established old myth or modern myth and what reflects reality. A few more quotes:

• The idea of the 4 Ways to Compostela, each one with its specific departure point (Paris/Tours, Le Puy, Vezelay, Arles), is a purely modern idea.
  
  
• The development of rambling (walking in nature for leisure, hiking leisurely) as a popular activity from the 1950's onwards inspired the idea of re-establishing the mediaeval tradition. In a world dominated by cars, the creation of footpaths enabled ramblers' itineraries to be made safe.
  
  
• From 1970 onwards, the St. James itineraries inspired by the 12th century manuscript (dubbed "Pilgrim's Guide") and mapped out on the basis of itineraries suggested by historians were implemented in the form of footpaths. The routes they follow, a guarantee of convenience and security, are a compromise between history and present-day reality. It is a question of avoiding tarmac roads, cars and private property, of taking into account availability of accommodation and the esthetic interest of places along the way.

This is actually a good point: a guarantee of convenience and security. Isn't it a bit of an illusion when we think of walking the Camino Francés as walking into the big unknown, where the universe unfolds as it should, where we don't know where we put our head tonight? We are walking in a populated cultural landscape, with lists of albergues, satellite-guided maps, instant online access to spot-on information and either the physical capabilities to walk on a few more kilometres or the security of a credit card or a handful of euros that will guarantee a bus trip or a taxi trip to our bed for the night.

I'm very much inclined to agree with this as far as the Frances is concerned. Not so much twenty years ago on the Norte with a donkey. Populated certainly, culture and beauty, plenty of tiny tiendas but no lists, very little waymarking, no useable map and you try taking a donkey on a bus! That said, it still wasn't the third world, and not many people refused a corner of a field or garden and a bucket of water. The donkey and I duly arrived, though she didn't get a Compostela.
When all is said and walked, that's what it is, a walk in a first world country, whatever your motivations may be. Those coming from countries where walking apparently needs special training and clothing may disagree. Dare I suggest that if you were to walk out of your front door with no preparation at all, other than a determination to get from point a to point b on foot, you would eventually get to point b? Though I expect it would help if you had comfortable shoes and a toothbrush, and remembered to keep heading in the right general direction. On the Norte that involves keeping the sea on your right...

 

[Flatlander]

This is actually a good point: a guarantee of convenience and security. Isn't it a bit of an illusion when we think of walking the Camino Francés as walking into the big unknown, where the universe unfolds as it should, where we don't know where we put our head tonight? We are walking in a populated cultural landscape, with lists of albergues, satellite-guided maps, instant online access to spot-on information and either the physical capabilities to walk on a few more kilometres or the security of a credit card or a handful of euros that will guarantee a bus trip or a taxi trip to our bed for the night.

I wholeheartedly agree.

An illusion it may be, but for many, many people it is a great adventure in the sense that there are all kinds of risks, arrival is not guaranteed and unusual physical demands are placed upon us. For many Pilgrims, especially from the more developed world, it is a very different slice of life to the "normal".

I think most human minds do not enjoy the sensation of a "big unknown" and it is normal, maybe even instinctive, to attempt to put some kind of order on that unknown - hence the talk of "best this" and "best that", the reservations of beds and the like.

For each person what is "unknown" varies and can expand or shrink depending on mood or attitude.

On the other hand, entering the "unknown" can be an exciting, challenging and rewarding experience. The fears and anxieties we have at home are different in reality.

There are fewer, safer, better resourced places to challenge ourselves physically and emotionally and possibly spiritually than on one of the popular Camino routes.

Dare I suggest that if you were to walk out of your front door with no preparation at all, other than a determination to get from point a to point b on foot, you would eventually get to point b?

Hear hear!

There's only one problem with that;
A focus on the destination can distract from the journey to get there

Thankfully, there has always been a streak within humanity to venture into the great unknown. Sometimes that was fuelled by desire, sometimes by desperation, but since we no longer live in caves we know it exists.

For anyone approaching a Camino as a scary unknown, a great adventure, full of risk and struggle and challenge, they have a wonderful opportunity to succeed in a very safe environment.

I'm of the opinion that the "real" Camino comes afterwards. What do we do with the achievement, the success, the lessons learned? What exactly do we bring home from our Caminos? Has our attitude to the "great unknown" changed?

One thing I will say about SJPP is that I found a magical atmosphere there. I was absolutely charmed by the excitement in the air and sense of anticipation. Pretty much everyone else was "starting" there and I would have no hesitation in recommending it (or any other major starting point) for that factor alone. Nothing to do with history and everything to do with humanity. Sitting on a low wall and watching a trail of people tramp past me, hearing the conversations, watching the expressions and sensing all the different emotions in the air is a vivid memory.
Of course, it was all the more tangible for me since I arrived after a few weeks on the road.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Isn't it a bit of an illusion when we think of walking the Camino Francés as walking into the big unknown, where the universe unfolds as it should, where we don't know where we put our head tonight? We are walking in a populated cultural landscape, with lists of albergues, satellite-guided maps, instant online access to spot-on information and either the physical capabilities to walk on a few more kilometres or the security of a credit card or a handful of euros that will guarantee a bus trip or a taxi trip to our bed for the night.

And yet, large numbers still insist that they can't start walking unless they know where they will sleep that night.

 

[Pafayac]

All this is right, but in counterpart, I think we have an erroneous view, perhaps too romantic, of what were the pilgrimage during previous centuries:

"From the beginning of the 17th century, Cervantés observed with lucidity "these pilgrims, who used to come in large numbers each year to visit the sanctuaries of Spain, whom they look at as their Great Indies, as they are so sure to make their profit there. They go through it almost entirely, and there is no village from which they do not come out, as they say, full of drinking and eating, and with a real at least in money. At the end of the trip, they return with a hundred ecus of remains, which, changed into gold, and hidden, either in the hollow of their bumblebees, or in the rooms of their pilgrims, or in any other way, leave the kingdom and pass to their country, despite the guardians of the ports and passages where they are visited."
(...)

"This greater "crowd" is not to the taste of all Spaniards. The Cortés of Castile in 1523, 1525, 1528, introduced constraints to limit the right of entry for foreigners, and in June 1590, Philip II required foreigners to authorize civil and religious authorities, as well as the duty not to deviate from the "right way". In 1598, Don Cristobal Perez de Herrera vigorously wrote his impression of this upsurge of pilgrims that did not suit him at all:

"We see passing and we host every year at the hospice of Burgos, where we give them free food for two or three days, eight to ten thousand French and Gascons who come to our kingdoms on the occasion of the pilgrimage... In France, it is said, they promise as a dowry to their daughters what they will have amassed during the trip"

Triomphe de Compostelle (Mollaret Péricard-Méa)

Document de présentation.

www.xacobeo.fr

According to me, the sense of the Camino is not the adventure, nor the suffering, but finding myself, living more simply than at home, with basic concerns, mind opened to others...

 

[JabbaPapa]

FWIW, Codex Calixtinus names Saint-Michel (a village close to Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port) as the starting point of its Pyrenean stage, not SJPP nor Saint-Jean-le-Vieux ; and to Viscarret rather than Roncesvalles.

 

[dougfitz]

FWIW, Codex Calixtinus names Saint-Michel (a village close to Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port) as the starting point of its Pyrenean stage, not SJPP nor Saint-Jean-le-Vieux ; and to Viscarret rather than Roncesvalles.

That would have been a substantial day. I can find a walking route between the two on OSM that looks like about 36 km, with just over 2000 m of climb and 1400 m of descent. Depending on how you interpret Naismith's rule, that would be the flat equivalent of well over 50 km.

 

[Kathar1na]

That would have been a substantial day. I can find a walking route between the two on OSM that looks like about 36 km, with just over 2000 m of climb and 1400 m of descent. Depending on how you interpret Naismith's rule, that would be the flat equivalent of well over 50 km.

Bear in mind that chapter II of book V of the Codex Calixtinus, nowadays known as "Pilgrim Guide", divides the distance of 800 km from the Pyrenees to the Apostle into 13 dietae itineris sancti Jacobi which gives us an average of 60 km daily. However, these "stages" are of uneven length.

Book V was not used as a pilgrim guidebook and it was not written with people "walking every step of the way" in mind.

 

[dick bird]

Book V was not used as a pilgrim guidebook and it was not written with people "walking every step of the way" in mind.

I have heard it suggested that the writer assumed his audience would be travelling on horseback, he frequently mentions horses e.g. how they were conveyed by ferries, but 60 km a day on bad roads would still be a long stretch for a horse.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I have heard it suggested that the writer assumed his audience would be travelling on horseback, he frequently mentions horses e.g. how they were conveyed by ferries, but 60 km a day on bad roads would still be a long stretch for a horse.

They likely changed horses regularly -- though some well-trained travel horses could (and even more rarely can) do very long distances indeed.

 

[Pafayac]

Book V was not used as a pilgrim guidebook and it was not written with people "walking every step of the way" in mind.

I agree. Now we are focused on what to eat, where to sleep... but the Book V of Codex Calixtinus were more focused on where to pray, where to find relics, sanctuaries...
Therefore the stages it describes should be understood as steps between holy places, no matter how many days it takes, than in steps between albergues, like today.

 

[David Tallan]

I have heard it suggested that the writer assumed his audience would be travelling on horseback, he frequently mentions horses e.g. how they were conveyed by ferries, but 60 km a day on bad roads would still be a long stretch for a horse.

That was my understanding as well, having read it. They clearly were using horses for at least some of the stages.

 

[Kathar1na]

Just for fun (and for a reality check), below are the 13 distances in the "Pilgrim Guide". I rounded the distances to the nearest 10 km or 5 km; any higher accuracy would be ridiculous, given that we don't even know the exact trajectory of roads in the year 1140 or thereabouts. As already mentioned, the so called "Pilgrim Guide" was not widely known at the time it was written and neither was it widely known in the next few centuries, then it became completely forgotten for hundreds of years and it was only about eighty years ago when it was translated from Latin into a modern language for the first time, namely into French, that it became more widely known to scholars and interested amateurs. Today, this medieval document is mentioned in next to every Camino guidebook and every second Camino blog, and scores of Camino pilgrims wrongly believe that it is the Mother of all Camino guidebooks.

If it was indeed meant for aristocracy and high-level clergy to entice them to come to Santiago, then I don't think that they raced along at neck-breaking speed on their horses because for all I know they travelled with a large retinue and goods and supplies of all sorts etc etc.

1. -- 35 km
2. -- 30 km
3. -- 45 km
4. -- 80 km
5. -- 95 km
6. -- 70 km
7. -- 60 km
8. -- 45 km
9. -- 70 km
10. -- 60 km
11. -- 50 km
12. -- 65 km
13. -- 70 km

 

[JabbaPapa]

As already mentioned, the so called "Pilgrim Guide" was not widely known at the time it was written and neither was it widely known in the next few centuries

Yes -- but there are numerous examples of written pilgrim itineraries and Camino memoirs, some of which are collected in Chemins de Compostelle, 2009, Éditions Cosmopole.

So it seems not unlikely, that whilst there were no such things as "guide books", some pilgrims would have travelled with their own copies of those itineraries for getting from A to B. But of course, these itineraries could have sometimes diverged from each other in various details.

Nevertheless, the itinerary given by the Seigneur de Caumont for his 1417 Camino is :

Caumont
Roquefort
Mont-de-Marsan
Saint-Sève
Hagetmau
Orthez
Sauveterre
Saint-Palais
Ostabat
SJPP
Caperon Rouge (?) (Possibly Arnéguy ? Or an old half-way point or name of a mediaeval gîte on the Napoleon Route ?)
Burguete via Roncesvalles
Larrasoaña
Pamplona
Puente la Reina
Estella
Los Arcos
Logroño
Navarrete
Nájera
Santo Domingo de la Calzada
Villafranca
Burgos
Hornillos del Camino
Castrojériz
Frómista
Carrión de los Condes
Sahagún
Mansilla de las Mulas
León
Puente or Hospital de Órbigo
Astorga
Rabanal del Camino
Ponferrada
Cacabelos
Trabadelo
La Faba
Triacastela
Sarria
Portomarín
Palas de Rei
Melide
"Doas Casas" near Arzúa
Santiago de Compostela
"Salhemana" (?) Negreira ?
As Maroñas
Fisterra

He also gives his itinerary for the return journey, also on the Francès, though sometimes he slept in different places than on the way there, and he chooses a slightly different itinerary in the Landes near home.

So it's good to be cautious -- but not overly so, as it seems very clear that the Camino Francès, roughly as we know it, was quite well established in the Middle Ages, so that an early 15th Century pilgrim followed it exactly, even the Camino to Fisterra.

 

[dougfitz]

If it was indeed meant for aristocracy and high-level clergy to entice them to come to Santiago, then I don't think that they raced along at neck-breaking speed on their horses because for all I know they travelled with a large retinue and goods and supplies of all sorts etc etc.

I am now imagining that the retinue would have been run like a military operation:

a. a scouting party of perhaps one or two trusted lieutenants sent a couple of days ahead seeking out the best route and accommodation, with riders or runners going back and forth with details of the route discovered
b. an advance party run by a major domo sent forward to the chosen accommodation to prepare rooms and obtain food, wine, beer, and other supplies for the main party
c. the main body of the group arriving to find all the comforts of home set up, food prepared etc
d. and perhaps a rear party that packs everything up, auctions off any surplus to the locals, and prepares to move forward as the next advance party.

I can imagine the composition of the main body including skilled musicians and other entertainers, depending on the wealth and status of the pilgrim.

And consider how we can achieve all of this today with a smartphone and a little trust in the local accommodation and culinary establishments.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I am now imagining that the retinue would have been run like a military operation:

Yes.

There is a very good description of such a retinue in Priez pour nous à Compostelle, an excellent late 1970s work by two French journalists (and foot pilgrims) previously serialised in a glossy French weekly, and which kick-started the modern revival of the French routes, the Le Puy one especially.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I am now imagining that the retinue would have been run like a military operation:

a. a scouting party of perhaps one or two trusted lieutenants sent a couple of days ahead seeking out the best route and accommodation, with riders or runners going back and forth with details of the route discovered
b. an advance party run by a major domo sent forward to the chosen accommodation to prepare rooms and obtain food, wine, beer, and other supplies for the main party
c. the main body of the group arriving to find all the comforts of home set up, food prepared etc
d. and perhaps a rear party that packs everything up, auctions off any surplus to the locals, and prepares to move forward as the next advance party.

I can imagine the composition of the main body including skilled musicians and other entertainers, depending on the wealth and status of the pilgrim.

And consider how we can achieve all of this today with a smartphone and a little trust in the local accommodation and culinary establishments.

The only significant details missing in your spot on suppositions are the large canopy tents and the furniture carried along in case of no suitably spacious accommodations locally.

 

[JabbaPapa]

As already mentioned, the so called "Pilgrim Guide" was not widely known at the time it was written and neither was it widely known in the next few centuries, then it became completely forgotten for hundreds of years and it was only about eighty years ago when it was translated from Latin into a modern language for the first time, namely into French, that it became more widely known to scholars and interested amateurs.

Been looking at the already mentioned Chemins de Compostelle book a bit more.

It includes a 1726 Camino memoir, with an 1890 introduction.

That 1890 text states :

A la même époque (12th Century), un Français, Aimery Picaud, compose le Codex de Saint-Jacques et, pour lui donner plus de crédit, l'attribue au pape Calixte II. Après avoir traité en quatre livres : de la translation du corps de Saint Jacques, de ses miracles, des chants composés en son honneur et de l'expédition de Charlemagne, l'auteur donne, dans le dernier livre, un véritable guide à l'usage des pèlerins.

So, 50 years earlier than you suggest, it was known to scholars, and part 4 already being thought of as a "Pilgrim Guide".

---

Another unrelated tidbit from the same 1890 text on pilgrim numbers. Santiago pilgrims passing through Paris and registered in their records for 1368 were 16,690. Numbers on the Francès in the 14th Century were likely massive.

 

[JabbaPapa]

In 2023, thanks to more extensive and more accurate research, we know that it never served as a guide for pilgrims!

Hard to know if any pilgrims didn't consult copies of it in libraries for that purpose. That only one full copy exists doesn't mean that others didn't -- indeed some incomplete ones do survive.

But people did carry copied itineraries as guides, the most popular one seeming to have been a 12th Century collection of pilgrims songs with an appendix giving an itinerary of the route from Paris to Santiago (via Bayonne > Vitoria > Burgos) -- though carrying this volume obviously became more common as copying became more industrialised, especially after the invention of printing. By the late 16th and the 17th Centuries it was commonly carried in printed form as a booklet by less wealthy pilgrims, Parisian ones anyway.

The author of that 1890 preface does state that, whilst travel guide books had become very popular by the 17th Century (tourism as such being an invention of the 16th), no guide books as such for the Way of Saint James existed in the early 18th Century period of the Camino memoir it was published for, and he notes that the itinerary given in that memoir is far more detailed than any other itinerary, mediaeval or modern, that he had been able to consult.

But people did carry itineraries as guides, much like most pre-smartphone pilgrims in the late 20th Century would carry photocopied itineraries to help along the way, devise plans for the day's hiking target and look for where to sleep.

Apologies to everyone else for even answering. I usually let this kind of petty stuff roll off my back and don't bother to react.

??? It's just some information.

 

[Kirkie]

Hard to know if any pilgrims didn't consult copies of it in libraries for that purpose. That only one full copy exists doesn't mean that others didn't -- indeed some incomplete ones do survive.

But people did carry copied itineraries as guides, the most popular one seeming to have been a 12th Century collection of pilgrims songs with an appendix giving an itinerary of the route from Paris to Santiago (via Bayonne > Vitoria > Burgos) -- though carrying this volume obviously became more common as copying became more industrialised, especially after the invention of printing. By the late 16th and the 17th Centuries it was commonly carried in printed form as a booklet by less wealthy pilgrims, Parisian ones anyway.

The author of that 1890 preface does state that, whilst travel guide books had become very popular by the 17th Century (tourism as such being an invention of the 16th), no guide books as such for the Way of Saint James existed in the early 18th Century period of the Camino memoir it was published for, and he notes that the itinerary given in that memoir is far more detailed than any other itinerary, mediaeval or modern, that he had been able to consult.

But people did carry itineraries as guides, much like most pre-smartphone pilgrims in the late 20th Century would carry photocopied itineraries to help along the way, devise plans for the day's hiking target and look for where to sleep.


??? It's just some information.

I trust @Kathar1na. I have yet to find her posts contain anything less than validated content.

 

[Kathar1na]

I trust @Kathar1na. I have yet to find her posts contain anything less than validated content.

Thank you, @Kirkie. I do make mistakes and I have no problems with it being pointed out to me. I am more than happy to go back to a comment, edit it and correct it.

I also like to think of myself as having the patience of a saint but occasionally I do run out of patience. I don't even mind when a few words or a line get quoted and the person uses this quote to go off on a tangent - I do this myself and it is sometimes misunderstood as being addressed to one person instead of to everyone. And of course I love to share what I know or what I have discovered; I try to keep it short and not bore everyone to death with it more than I already do.

It's these replies that make me think "what the heck did I write", then make me go back to my comment and where I then see that I wrote nothing of the sort. I then force myself to make me think "whatever" but it does not always work.

But we've moved far away from SJPP now ...

 

[dick bird]

But we've moved far away from SJPP now

As indeed we have. The information about earlier pilgrimages and guides has been entertaining and illuminating and we thank everyone who has contributed but it is time to close the thread.