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While you're not doing anything else ... help locate the pilgrim shelter in The Way

Kathar1na

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@Bert45 plays the Cunning Mastermind who's plan to take over the world will be successful unless the riddle is solved
­čÖé

While one chapter closes, another chapter opens, perhaps with new actors. @Bert45 is still looking for the location of the shelter where the movie pilgrims spent the night. To get things going, below is a screenshot of this place as shown in the movie, and next to it is a screenshot from Google Earth. Where is it? ­čĄş

I know where it is.jpg
 
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Jeff Crawley

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Currently on a "Virtual" Camino and striding out across Castile y Leon!
­čÖé

While one chapter closes, another chapter opens, perhaps with new actors. @Bert45 is still looking for the location of the shelter where the movie pilgrims spent the night. To get things going, below is a screenshot of this place as shown in the movie, and next to it is a screenshot from Google Earth. Where is it? ­čĄş

View attachment 73270
It's like playing chess with a Grand Master when you've only just grasped the rules for Dominoes.
 

Bert45

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So why havenÔÇÖt the camino sleuths started hunting for the shelter that @Kathar1na threw down the gauntlet? I wouldnÔÇÖt even know where to begin, but I like to follow along.
Me too! I thought it must be somewhere between Torres del R├şo and Bargota. When I got that area on Google Maps I noticed Ermita del Poyo not far away. I had a look at it on Streetview, adding it as a destination in 'Directions'. I saw that it was not the place they spent the night and I thought I had deleted it. But when I followed the blue line, which I thought was taking me to Bargota, I ended up at the ermita. So I went back and followed the blue line to Bargota, and didn't see the structure along the way. Then I went to bed.
 
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So why havenÔÇÖt the camino sleuths started hunting for the shelter that @Kathar1na threw down the gauntlet? I wouldnÔÇÖt even know where to begin, but I like to follow along.
I like the challenges of online searches but I have a crippled desktop and laptop and I'm not crazy enough to try this search on my smartphone.
 

Kathar1na

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I like the challenges of online searches but I have a crippled desktop and laptop and I'm not crazy enough to try this search on my smartphone.
I sympathise.

Once you know where it is it is very easy to see in Google Earth Street View even on the tiny screen of an iPhone. All the clues are in this thread where there is also a link to the whole movie. And the fact that we now know that it is visible on Google Street View level should make things a lot easier. ­čĄş
 
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Bert45

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"Once you know where it is" That's the important part of that sentence! If you don't know where it is you have hundreds of miles of road to navigate in Streetview.
 

VNwalking

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Kathar1na

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Maybe not - that's only so if you're searching at random. But: All the clues are in this thread where there is also a link to the whole movie.
Or, to spell out more explicitly what is now known:
  • they filmed only in those locations for which they thanked a competent authority/owner in the credits
  • the "shelter" is visible at GE Street View level
One could of course also ask whether they said something about the "shelter" location in the comments on the DVD to which most of us don't have access. I'd be curious to know as I am a curious person but I don't need to know. ­čĄş
 
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peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
I moved these posts out of the ÔÇťidentify the churchÔÇŁ thread because with the questions about the golf course and the Clinton movie credits being thrown in, this quest seemed to be getting lost. As our camino quests are limited these days, this is a challenge I would love to see someone else solve, since I could never do it.
 

Bert45

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Just a small detail. It was not Kathar1na's gauntlet that was thrown down originally. She has found the answer to my question, posted on While you're not doing anything else ... help identify this church! at Post #128, but, so far, she has not told anybody that answer. She kindly offered the pictures at Post #1, originally on the aforementioned thread, kindly extracted from it by peregrina2000. If you want some more places to search for take a look at So what do we do for the rest of the week? My list of about 50 locations can be found here: Locations used in "The Way". I do not take credit for actually finding most of them, hardly any of them, in fact. I just compiled the list and asked readers to find the ones I didn't know.
 

VNwalking

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So, @Bert45, does that mean you're not interested in this? And BTW, she is the one who asked about the shelter. Since it's a long scene in the movie I'm surprised no-one's jumping on this.
 

Kathar1na

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Just a small detail. It was not Kathar1na's gauntlet that was thrown down originally.
Different gauntlets, @Bert45 ­čśç.

You threw yours down while saying: "Where's the shelter."

I threw mine down while saying: "Find the shelter. I know where it is." Ôś║
 

Kathar1na

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Since it's a long scene in the movie I'm surprised no-one's jumping on this.
I think we may have lost our search crew, and also our observers. Ôś║

I just noticed that I did't get email notifications when a new post appears in this thread, I guess that setting did not get transferred when the thread was split.

@Jeff Crawley, @mark connolly, @Smallest_Sparrow, @LesR, @Rick of Rick and Peg, @Raggy, @Saint Mike II, @Pelegrin, @wisepilgrim, @everybody-I-didn't-mention-by-name, juhu, we are over here. Ôś║
 
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Bert45

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So, @Bert45, does that mean you're not interested in this? And BTW, she is the one who asked about the shelter. Since it's a long scene in the movie I'm surprised no-one's jumping on this.
Take a look at Post #1 on this thread. To save you the trouble, it says: While one chapter closes, another chapter opens, perhaps with new actors. @Bert45 is still looking for the location of the shelter where the movie pilgrims spent the night.
This was extracted from the earlier thread: While you're not doing anything else ... help identify this church! to avoid confusion, as members were posting all sorts of other stuff there -- about Bill Clinton, the shelter, other churches, even after the church had been identified. See peregrina2000's post #158 on that thread.
Kathar1na acknowledges that I am the one looking for the location of the shelter. I am absolutely interested in this. Until Kathar1na gives us (me) more powerful hints, I shall be watching and waiting. I too am surprised nobody has come up with the answer. Perhaps, as you yourself said, it's too hard.
 
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VNwalking

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Perhaps, as you yourself said, it's too hard.
Well, she managed to find it, and it didn't take long, so it can't be that hard.

Given this:
Or, to spell out more explicitly what is now known:
  • they filmed only in those locations for which they thanked a competent authority/owner in the credits
  • the "shelter" is visible at GE Street View level
It's obvious that the place to start is the credits, eliminating the places where you know what was filmed there.

Then once the places are narrowed down, to then start searching Google Earth.
 

NorthernLight

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Le Puy to Santiago via the Frances 2012-2013. EPW2015
Aragonese & Frances 2016
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I recall on one of my caminos, walking along and wondering where the sheltered porch was. I never espied it, but perhaps it is at an angle that didnÔÇÖt catch my eye.

By memory, the next morning, the boys in the film show up with food from a nearby farm, the angle suggesting that the porch is not facing the path.
 
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Bert45

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You make it sound so easy, VN! We can't eliminate places where we know what was filmed there (or think that we know). They could have filmed two scenes within the same parish. There may be scenes filmed in some parishes that never made it to the final edit, but the parishes are nevertheless thanked in the credits. The shelter appears to be by the side of a metalled road, not a dirt track, but it seems to be isolated ÔÇô nothing on the other side of the road. Each parish covers a wide area, a tiny hamlet or village in the middle, with several roads leading in and out. That still leaves many miles of road to cover. If we go to Google Earth and get a wide shot, we are unlikely to recognise the shelter from so high up. If we go in close, where we might recognise the shelter by what we think it would look like from above, we will be looking at miles of road again.
You say "it can't be that hard." ÔÇô so what's stopping you? I don't care who tells me where it is.
 
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Bert45

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I recall on one of my caminos, walking along and wondering where the sheltered porch was. I never espied it, but perhaps it is at an angle that didnÔÇÖt catch my eye.
By memory, the next morning, the boys show up with food from a nearby farm, the angle suggesting that the porch is not facing the path.
The porch is clearly facing a metalled road. In the draft script, the scenes in the shelter are 92 and 93. In the list of locations scenes 92 and 93 are listed : 90, 93, 92 (sic) CAMINO CAMPSITE. [In the script, by scene 91 it says OMIT.] The next box (on the right) which shows where the scene actually takes place (as opposed to where the scene is supposedly taking place) is blank. Scene 94, which comes before 90,93, 92 in the list is listed: 94 CAMINO COUNTRYSIDE 2 with the next box (on the right) blank. Scene 95 (which comes after scenes 83 [Camino Los Arcos], 84, 85, 86 [Camino Countryside, near Los Arcos], 87 [Camino Torres del Rio], 88, 89 [CASA DE SANTA BARBARA (El Ram├│n) is listed: 95 CAMINO VIANA with the next box (on the right) showing VIANA. Does that help?
 

RENSHAW

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2/4 weeks every year on CF reaching Burgos or Leon. Hospitalero San Anton June 2016.
I remember a similar shelter between Zubiri and Pamplona - Just sowing a seed here.
 

Bert45

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I remember a similar shelter between Zubiri and Pamplona - Just sowing a seed here.
So give us the co-ordinates, please.
 

Kathar1na

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By memory, the next morning, the boys in the film show up with food from a nearby farm, the angle suggesting that the porch is not facing the path.
Food from a nearby farm in the movie, in reality most likely food from a production team van. Ôś║
 

VNwalking

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It's not the hermitage on the hilltop before heading down to Viana...the right neck of the woods, but there's no lean-to there.
Nor does it seem to be the obe after Viana. There does not seem to be a lean-to there, either.
 

Kathar1na

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88, 89 [CASA DE SANTA BARBARA (El Ram├│n) is listed: 95 CAMINO VIANA with the next box (on the right) showing VIANA. Does that help?
Well, I was trying to put this information into an Excel sheet to get a better idea of what is what but then I go sidetracked. Has anyone identified the house yet that they used as Ram├│n's house in the movie?
 

Bert45

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Well, I was trying to put this information into an Excel sheet to get a better idea of what is what but then I go sidetracked. Has anyone identified the house yet that they used as Ram├│n's house in the movie?
Oh yes! I've seen stuff on the net about it on somebody's blog. It was demolished some time in the past 10 years (i.e. I don't whether it was demolished recently or a long time ago, but obvs since the film was made). The same somebody put a photo of the site on his blog. I'm sure with enough words you or I could google it. You could follow the steps of the pilgrims from the corner identified on my Locations list to find a blank space where the house used to be.
 

Aniello

New Member
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Francese 2009 2010 2011 2013 2014 2015 la.plata 2016 francese 2018 maggio francese 2018 agosto porto
Well, I was trying to put this information into an Excel sheet to get a better idea of what is what but then I go sidetracked. Has anyone identified the house yet that they used as Ram├│n's house in the movie?
La casa di el ramon e situata in calle el sepulcro 24 31229 torres del rio ad agosto 2019 era ancora l├Č con l interno come nel film..
 

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Kathar1na

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So to sum up, here is what we know that may be relevant for finding the "pilgrims' shelter":
  • They filmed in Torres del Rio, Bargota and Viana - all in Navarra.
  • They thanked a number of entities in Navarra (see screenshot below); lots of them are ayuntamientos - administrative entities at municipal level.
  • An ayuntamiento is not just one village or one town. It may encompass several villages or towns. It includes all the ground, i.e. also fields, vineyards, orchards, meadows and so on.
  • Apparently, the movie people referred to the structure as a "disused church" or a "church that gets used once per month", in short as a structure that is or was a religious building.
  • A Google Earth car drove past the structure at one point in time and filmed it.
  • You will hate it if I tell you outright where it is and what it is.
Credits.jpg
 
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Kathar1na

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It was demolished some time in the past 10 years (i.e. I don't whether it was demolished recently or a long time ago, but obvs since the film was made).
I think we are in danger of getting confused here.

Ram├│n Sostres was a real person, described in numerous pilgrim reports and books who, in the early years of the camino revival, offered pilgrims a roof over their heads in his derelict home in Torres del Rio. He had moved there from Barcelona where he had been a school teacher or professor afaik.

I don't know why they picked the name "Ram├│n" for the person in the movie because as far as I understand it the movie personality is a gross exaggeration of Se├▒or Sostres' personality. Maybe because he was no longer alive and had no family who could sue them :rolleyes:.

The house that is shown in the movie is not Se├▒or Sostres' house and the passport stamp that is shown in the movie is not Se├▒or Sostres' passport stamp. The house shown in the movie is still standing in Torres del Rio. It is just off the official camino trail in Torres del Rio. It ought to be in the locations list. A major contribution to the quest for movie locations, thank you @Aniello!
 
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Kathar1na

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A description that deviates from the usual narrative is an encounter of a Spanish pilgrim staying with Ram├│n Sostres in his home in Torres del Rio. It is narrated by Julio Luis Ezpeleta in his book El Camino de Los Momentos. It can be read online (p. 95, 111 and 113 mention Se├▒or Ram├│n). It was published in 2005 and it's even available in a Kindle version. He and his wife walked the Camino Franc├ęs in 1990.
 
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Bert45

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I've been taking a look at TdR on Streetview. Unfortunately, the street the pilgrims walk up was closed off when Sv went there. On Google Maps that street is called Calle Desfiladero, but you can zoom in on the street sign in Sv and see that it is Calle Jes├║s Ord├│├▒ez. I haven't found the house (yet) but I'm hoping this screenshot will show what they have to contend with:
1587465041986.png
Oops!
 

Galloglaigh

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Terrible parking spot.
 

Kathar1na

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As to the house in Torres del Rio where the "Ram├│n" scenes were filmed, here were are (first image from the movie, second image from Google Earth Street View):

House in Torres del Rio.jpg
 
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RENSHAW

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Are you thinking of this place RENSHAW? At the top of the hill near Zabaldika? The bloke said that scenes from the move had been shot there
Yes , that's the one although it does not look like our riddle does it? What I did notice is that this shelter is always clean?
 
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I sympathise.

Once you know where it is it is very easy to see in Google Earth Street View even on the tiny screen of an iPhone. All the clues are in this thread where there is also a link to the whole movie. And the fact that we now know that it is visible on Google Street View level should make things a lot easier. ­čĄş
But the E64 question is "where does one look"??? Are you prepared to give a clue?? I currently have GE up with the Ermita (N,S,) del Poyo and even with 3D I can't reconcile that location. So it has to be further West (if we keep the faith that they did not return to an earlier location). Now I have cycled and walked the section from Torres del Rio to Burgos and still can't place it. Cheers
 

Bert45

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Thanks (yet again, Kathar1na), it's 21 Calle el Sepulcro, TdR. It is now in the Locations list! Btw, that list is getting very long. Is there any way of making it shorter? Would anyone want that, i.e for it to be shorter? so you don't have to scroll so much to get from the start to the end.
 

Bert45

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But the ÔéČ64million question is "where does one look"??? Are you prepared to give a clue?? I currently have GE up with the Ermita (N,S,) del Poyo and even with 3D I can't reconcile that location. So it has to be further West (if we keep the faith that they did not return to an earlier location). Now I have cycled and walked the section from Torres del Rio to Burgos and still can't place it. Cheers
Exactly what I said, seems like weeks ago, Mike. Last night I went through those ayuntamientos and looked within the red line boundaries and just outside them, from Arma├▒anzas to Valcarlos (I didn't look at Aioz, because it seems so unlikely), on Google Maps. I went in quite close, but never saw anything that looked like a ruined church or that was marked as an ermita (except one that wasn't the shelter).
You will hate it if I tell you outright where it is and what it is. ÔÇô No, I won't, Kathar1na.
 
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Kathar1na

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You are really wearing me down ­čĄş but I appreciate it very much that you are trying ­čÖé.

The "shelter" is not on the Camino Franc├ęs trail. Just like Bargota is not on the Camino Franc├ęs trail. Or the church in Santa Maria de Figueiras is not on the Camino Franc├ęs trail.

The "shelter" is on the land of one of the municipalities that are mentioned in the credits.
 
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Kathar1na

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Look what I found! ­čśŐ

A photo of the real "Casa Santa Barbara" of Ram├│n Sostre(s) in Torres del Rio! There are more photos with details of the house here: https://tomas-misfotos.blogspot.com/2019/03/torres-del-rio-navarra.html . I've not read the whole entry on the website. It looks genuine, though. What do you think?

Edited to add: It turned out a few days after I had posted this that the blogger/photographer got it wrong. See later posts.

Casa Ram├│n Sostre.jpg
 
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Aniello

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Francese 2009 2010 2011 2013 2014 2015 la.plata 2016 francese 2018 maggio francese 2018 agosto porto

Bert45

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Look what I found! ­čśŐ

A photo of the real "Casa Santa Barbara" of Ram├│n Sostre(s) in Torres del Rio! There are more photos with details of the house here: https://tomas-misfotos.blogspot.com/2019/03/torres-del-rio-navarra.html . I've not read the whole entry on the website. It looks genuine, though. What do you think?

View attachment 73515
You are amazing, Kathar1na! How do you do it? The house was still there in 2019, so it appears that I have been misinformed, or had a dream that seemed like reality :). I read it in translation. The sign on the door is dated 2002.
 
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Kathar1na

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Last night I went through those ayuntamientos and looked within the red line boundaries and just outside them, from Arma├▒anzas to Valcarlos (I didn't look at Aioz, becuse it seems so unlikely), on Google Maps. I went in quite close, but never saw anything that looked like a ruined church or that was marked as an ermita (except one that wasn't the shelter).
Which eremita was that?

Don't forget that the "shelter" is on one of the blue lines, i.e. roads that you see when you activate Google Street View in Google Earth. And that the movie crew did not travel forwards and backwards much, they just travelled sideways sometimes. And although some scenes are out of sequence in the final version of the movie, they did film more or less in geographical sequence.
 

Raggy

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I wasn't as active in this search - Couldn't work up the motivation to hunt for a basic shelter from the comfort of my living room. (When I'm outside in a heavy rain, I have no problems motivating myself to hunt for a basic shelter).

It's roughly in the area that I expected (as per my initial comments). With the most recent discussions, I was able to spot it quickly. You don't need Google Earth to find it. StreetView in Google Maps will do.

I expect everyone can get it now, so I won't deprive you of the joy of discovering it. But by way of an extra clue, I offer you a glorious aerial perspective (from Google Earth) looking North-West. A distinctive landscape, I think.

Screen Shot 2020-04-21 at 23.16.47.png
 

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Raggy

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Have you noticed that these locations often have plenty of space to park vehicles?
 
Camino(s) past & future
First one in 1977 by train. Many since then by foot. Next one ASAP.
I don't know why they picked the name "Ram├│n" for the person in the movie because as far as I understand it the movie personality is a gross exaggeration of Se├▒or Sostres' personality. Maybe because he was no longer alive and had no family who could sue them :rolleyes:.
I seem to recall reading that they picked it as a joke -- because "Ramon" was Martin Sheen's baptismal name!
 

Bert45

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Which eremita was that?

Don't forget that the "shelter" is on one of the blue lines, i.e. roads that you see when you activate Google Street View in Google Earth. And that the movie crew did not travel forwards and backwards much, they just travelled sideways sometimes. And although some scenes are out of sequence in the final version of the movie, they did film more or less in geographical sequence.
At last, I found it! I didn't get the sense of achievement that you and Raggy must have done, as Raggy's photo from Google Earth, with that distinctive field, practically took me there. But it's miles (1.3 miles) from Arma├▒anzas and nearly three miles from Bargota, and over two miles from Torres del R├şo, in the wrong direction for anybody following the Camino Franc├ęs. Yes, it's on a blue line, but you would never see it till you get close, and then you have to keep moving along the blue line, not knowing if you're in the right parish, heading in the right direction. It's in my List of Locations now. And that's about it! So what do we do for the rest of the week?
 

Aniello

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Francese 2009 2010 2011 2013 2014 2015 la.plata 2016 francese 2018 maggio francese 2018 agosto porto
At last, I found it! I didn't get the sense of achievement that you and Raggy must have done, as Raggy's photo from Google Earth, with that distinctive field, practically took me there. But it's miles (1.3 miles) from Arma├▒anzas and nearly three miles from Bargota, and over two miles from Torres del R├şo, in the wrong direction for anybody following the Camino Franc├ęs. Yes, it's on a blue line, but you would never see it till you get close, and then you have to keep moving along the blue line, not knowing if you're in the right parish, heading in the right direction. It's in my List of Locations now. And that's about it! So what do we do for the rest of the week?
Grazieeeeeee....stavo impazzendo..
 

Bert45

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
(2003) Franc├ęs, (2014) Franc├ęs, (2016) Portugu├ęs , (2016) Aragon├ęs, (2018) del Norte to Primitivo,
Which eremita was that?

Don't forget that the "shelter" is on one of the blue lines, i.e. roads that you see when you activate Google Street View in Google Earth. And that the movie crew did not travel forwards and backwards much, they just travelled sideways sometimes. And although some scenes are out of sequence in the final version of the movie, they did film more or less in geographical sequence.
There were two, actually. The Ermita de San Blas just west of the red line around Los Arcos, and Ermita del Calvario, west of the red line around Villamayor de Monjard├şn. A couple of places I just searched gave a very large area within a red line, whereas, last night, the red line was just around the village I put in the search box. There were 16 ayuntamientos listed. If you tackled them in alphabetical order, ignoring Aoiz, you might have struck lucky with Arma├▒anzas. Or not.
 
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Kathar1na

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I pointed out a few times that an ayuntamiento includes all the ground, i.e. also fields, vineyards, orchards, meadows and so on. You can see the administrative area of any ayuntamiento in Google Earth if you chose the right settings. It is easier to see in IGN maps. Below is a map view that shows the borders of Bargota, Ama├▒anzas, Torres del Rio etc. It even shows the location of the Eremita de San Juan aka as "the pilgrim shelter in The Way".

Armananzas.jpg
 
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Kathar1na

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I seem to recall reading that they picked it as a joke -- because "Ramon" was Martin Sheen's baptismal name!
I don't buy that. I think that's what people say, or believe, with little knowledge of recent Camino history. The sorry state of Ram├│n Sostres' house in Torres del Rio, including the outdoors "bathroom", is described in numerous pilgrim reports of the early days, including Jack Hitt's book on which the script of the movie "The Way" is largely based, as well as in at least one other earlier book. Ram├│n Sostres was dedicated to serving pilgrims.

His house was listed in the early accommodation lists. He was known as the "Crazy One from the Albergue" in Torres del Rio, see here, where the albergue is listed as "Albergue Casa Santa Bárbara de Ramón Sostres". The Tom character reads from his guidebook while the group walks into Torres del Rio: "There is an albergue called Casa Santa Barbara" and "It's the only one".

Ram├│n Sostres was a solitary man and a stranger to the villagers but he was not that kind of crazy. I didn't know him, obviously, but for a strange reason I feel compelled to defend his memory.

I gather that Ram├│n Sostres died in 2002 or 2003. His house is no longer in its original state as far as I can tell. I may check this out a bit more.
 
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Bert45

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I pointed out a few times that an ayuntamiento includes all the ground, i.e. also fields, vineyards, orchards, meadows and so on. You can see the administrative area of any ayuntamiento in Google Earth if you chose the right settings. It is easier to see in IGN maps. Below is a map view that shows the borders of Bargota, Ama├▒anzas, Torres del Rio etc. It even shows the location of the Eremita de San Juan aka as "the pilgrim shelter in The Way".

View attachment 73532
You can see the administrative area of any ayuntamiento in Google Earth, if you choose the right settings.
It's like playing chess with a Grand Master when you've only just grasped the rules for Dominoes. I think the analogy would be better with 'Draughts' instead of Dominoes, but you are talking to somebody who can just about manage to email and copy and paste. IGN maps? If I'd been able to find the entire area covered by an ayuntamiento, it would have just given me more blue lines to explore. It would have taken forever! How did you find it so fast? It's like talking to Stephen Hawking, if he'd still been alive, when you've just got a '3' in GCSE Physics.
 

Kathar1na

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A photo of the real "Casa Santa Barbara" of Ram├│n Sostre(s) in Torres del Rio! There are more photos with details of the house here: https://tomas-misfotos.blogspot.com/2019/03/torres-del-rio-navarra.html .
View attachment 73515
The comment of the photographer says: In this building began perhaps the modern hospitality for the pilgrims going to Santiago as practiced by Ramon Sostres and described on the wooden sign of the facade.

This is the site of the first and very original and initially one and only pilgrim albergue in Torres del Rio, called Casa Santa Barbara. Donativo if not totally free of any charges. It was a two story house, derelict but pilgrims stayed there. No plumbing. It was a true "pilgrims shelter". ­čÖé

What we see today in 2020 must be a partially renovated part of the original building. There is a sign to the left of the door in commemoration of Se├▒or Sostres.

The house that was used for filming in the movie "The Way" and is referred to as Casa Santa Barbara is a different building in Torres del Rio.

Edited to add later: The photographer got it wrong. This is not the site of Se├▒or Ramon's house. It is just a building that has a plaque to commemorate him.
 
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Kathar1na

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I am not sure what the sign says, corrections welcome, I think it is: En memoria de D. Ramon Sostre (2002). Pionero de la hospitad en Torres del Rio. Ultreia 2002.

In memory of Mr. Ramon Sostres (died 2002). Pioneer of the hospitality in Torres del Rio. Ultreia 2002.

Wooden sign.jpg
 
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Kathar1na

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This is the real sello that you would get if you had stayed in the Casa Santa Barbara in Torres del Rio. Not the joke sello that they show you in the movie.

It says: Ramon Sostres, friend of the Camino and of the pilgrims.
Sello.jpg
 
Camino(s) past & future
First one in 1977 by train. Many since then by foot. Next one ASAP.
The sorry state of Ram├│n Sostres' house in Torres del Rio, including the outdoors "bathroom", is described in numerous pilgrim reports of the early days, including Jack Hitt's book on which the script of the movie "The Way" is largely based,
Here is something of Hitt's early-1990s description [p. 83 and ff.]

"The Wild Bunch directs me to a street on the edge of town. Casa Santa Barbara is a stunning mansion, a wide boxy symmetry of two-story windows... A set of hedges frames an impressive entrance of twin doors. Every inch of the yellow stone is blanketed in luxurious green ivy. Above the door is a colorful tile depicting Santa Barbara, the patroness of military artillery. On the ground is a curled wrought-iron boot scrape...."

Is that the house pictured in item 43, above? I don't think so.
 
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Bert45

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Here is something of Hitt's early-1990s description [p. 83 and ff.]

"The Wild Bunch directs me to a street on the edge of town. Casa Santa Barbara is a stunning mansion, a wide boxy symmetry of two-story windows... A set of hedges frames an impressive entrance of twin doors. Every inch of the yellow stone is blanketed in luxurious green ivy. Above the door is a colorful tile depicting Santa Barbara, the patroness of military artillery. On the ground is a curled wrought-iron boot scrape...."

Is that the house pictured in item 43, above? I don't think so.
Here is what a chap wrote in 2014 (caminodesantiagolite.blogspot):
Approaching Torres del Rio, I have a mini mission. In "The Way" a Ramon offers free beds in his house but guests discover his rather unusual behavior. The actual Ramon lived in this town and did something similar. At the bar we stop for snacks, I ask the elderly owner where Ramon's house is. He instantly recognizes that I am talking about that man, but unfortunately he speaks no English and my WiFi hotspot does not work, so I resort to an alternative to Google Translate called the body language. I end up with a hand-drawn map but finally understand that Ramon is dead and his house no longer stands.
There is a photo of where the house used to stand, allegedly. It is an empty field of grey-brown soil, not worth showing here.
 
Camino(s) past & future
cycled from Pamplona Sep 2015;Frances, walked from St Jean May/June 2017. Plans to walk Porto 2020
At last, I found it! I didn't get the sense of achievement that you and Raggy must have done, as Raggy's photo from Google Earth, with that distinctive field, practically took me there. But it's miles (1.3 miles) from Arma├▒anzas and nearly three miles from Bargota, and over two miles from Torres del R├şo, in the wrong direction for anybody following the Camino Franc├ęs. Yes, it's on a blue line, but you would never see it till you get close, and then you have to keep moving along the blue line, not knowing if you're in the right parish, heading in the right direction. It's in my List of Locations now. And that's about it! So what do we do for the rest of the week?

I am now going mad, I have Armananza & Bargota up on my screen but can't locate the building. If possible can you advise a street name or route name??/ Thanks
 

Bert45

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Frustrating, isn't it? If you can find my list of "Locations used in "The Way" [https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/locations-used-in-the-way.67359/#post-845855 will make it easier], and go to the time of the sleepover, you will find the latitude and longitude of the ermita. It is north of Arma├▒anzas on the NA-7200. I just sent you a PM too.
You have to zoom in quite a way before the name (Ermita de San Juan) appears on the Google Map. But you have to be already in the right area, otherwise you will be zooming in to a place where the ermita isn't. OR you can just search in Google Maps for "Ermita de San Juan" ÔÇô it seems that it is the only Ermita de San Juan in all of Spain, which is surprising ÔÇô and that will take you straight there. Simples!
 
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Kathar1na

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Here is what a chap wrote in 2014 (caminodesantiagolite.blogspot): I end up with a hand-drawn map but finally understand that Ramon is dead and his house no longer stands. There is a photo of where the house used to stand, allegedly. It is an empty field of grey-brown soil, not worth showing here.
Some people really have a knack of sitting on information ­čĄú;). The photo of this blogger is worth looking at. It helped greatly to finally find a photo of Se├▒or Ram├│n's house! The house is indeed now completely demolished and gone for good. The house was a rather grandiose affair, as described in numerous narratives.

The photographer quoted in post 54 above got it wrong. The building he photographed is actually part of the Pata de Oca albergue in Torres del Rio and merely has a commemorative plaque for Se├▒or Ram├│n.

I'll produce and edit some screenshots and post them later. A very satisfying ending to the quest! We found a real house with a camino history and not just a movie prop. ­čĄş
 
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Kathar1na

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Is that the house pictured in item 43, above? I don't think so.
No, it is not. The photographer got it wrong. The house pictured in item 43 above has a plaque commemorating Ram├│n Sostres but it is not the site where his house stood. I corrected earlier comments because IÔÇÖve now found the right location and even a photo of the derelict house. This topic has come up several times over the years and this conundrum is now finally solved.
 
Camino(s) past & future
First one in 1977 by train. Many since then by foot. Next one ASAP.
Some people really have a knack of sitting on information ­čĄú;). The photo of this blogger is worth looking at. It helped greatly to finally find a photo of Se├▒or Ram├│n's house! The house is indeed now completely demolished and gone for good.
The splendid photo in question. No address is given, and there are no landmarks visible in the photo to help other curiosity seekers to find the site.
 

Attachments

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Camino(s) past & future
First one in 1977 by train. Many since then by foot. Next one ASAP.
The photographer quoted in post 54 above got it wrong. The building he photographed is actually part of the Pata de Oca albergue in Torres del Rio and merely has a commemorative plaque for Se├▒or Ram├│n.
Stayed in the excellent Pata de Oca albergue in 2017, and if I'd known the plaque was there I'd have paid my respects to El Ramon's memory. Will certainly do so next time.

ADDENDUM

To find the plaque go past the entrance to the Pata de Oca (shown below) and promptly turn left onto Calle San Andres. Go just a stone's throw and the plaque will be visible on the facade of the modest building to your left. Numero 14.

1587651890673.png
 
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Kathar1na

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The splendid photo in question. No address is given, and there are no landmarks visible in the photo to help other curiosity seekers to find it.
Ooh, we can turn this into another little challenge Ôś║. Below is a view of the cadaster map for Torres del Rio for the year 2004. Three sites are marked:
  1. the house shown in the photo posted on http://caminodesantiagolite.blogspot.com/2014/10/day-9-camino-ii-los-arcos-to-logrono.html
  2. the house used in the movie "The Way"
  3. the house shown in the photo posted on https://tomas-misfotos.blogspot.com/2019/03/torres-del-rio-navarra.html
Google Earth and the above location information is all you need to find a view of both the derelict home of Ram├│n Sostres and a view of the empty space that is there now. Sounds odd? Pay attention to dates. ­čĄô

Cadaster Torres 2004.jpg
 
Camino(s) past & future
First one in 1977 by train. Many since then by foot. Next one ASAP.
Google Earth and the above location information is all you need to find a view of both the derelict home of Ram├│n Sostres and a view of the empty space that is there now.
Both derelict home and empty space? Using Google Earth but having a bit of difficulty there....
 

Aniello

New Member
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Francese 2009 2010 2011 2013 2014 2015 la.plata 2016 francese 2018 maggio francese 2018 agosto porto
[QUOTE = "Kathar1na, post: 846063, membro: 15378"]
Perch├ę c'├Ę questo View attachment 73673 e questo View attachment 73674 e non viaggiano durante gli stessi periodi di tempo.
[/CITAZIONE]
Ecco...trovata..
Here ... we found ..
 

Attachments

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Aniello

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Francese 2009 2010 2011 2013 2014 2015 la.plata 2016 francese 2018 maggio francese 2018 agosto porto
[QUOTE = "Aniello, post: 846096, membro: 94778"]
[QUOTE = "Kathar1na, post: 846063, membro: 15378"]
Perch├ę c'├Ę questo [ATTACH = full] 73673 [/ ATTACH] e questo [ATTACH = full] 73674 [/ ATTACH] e non gli scambi durante gli stessi periodi di tempo.
[/ CITAZIONE]
Ecco ... trovata ..
[/CITAZIONE]
Calle la carrera n 6 torres del rio
 

Aniello

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Francese 2009 2010 2011 2013 2014 2015 la.plata 2016 francese 2018 maggio francese 2018 agosto porto
[QUOTE = "Aniello, post: 846097, membro: 94778"]
[QUOTE = "Aniello, post: 846096, membro: 94778"]
[QUOTE = "Kathar1na, post: 846063, membro: 15378"]
Perch├ę c'├Ę questo [ATTACH = full] 73673 [/ ATTACH] e questo [ATTACH = full] 73674 [/ ATTACH] e non gli scambi durante gli stessi periodi di tempo.
[/ CITAZIONE]
Ecco ... trovata ..
[/ CITAZIONE]
Calle la carrera n. 6 torres del rio
[/CITAZIONE]
Rebus..il satellite vede la casa distrutta..la macchina di Google ha fatto le riprese quando la casa era ancora in vita
 

Bisnieta

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(2021)
Yep, Aniello. The satellite photo with the empty lot at 6 Calle la Carrera was taken this year, the Google Street View car last went by way back in 2012, apparently. Are those trees growing out of the roof in the 2012? No wonder the film's producers had to come up with a different location in 2010/2011, it was no doubt too far gone a year earlier than when this picture was snapped.
Let me see if I can get a picture to attach here:Casa Santa Barbara Senor Ramon Torres del Rio.png
 
Camino(s) past & future
First one in 1977 by train. Many since then by foot. Next one ASAP.
When did Ramon Sostres die? Where is he buried? Anyone able to point us to an obituary, or a photograph of him? Or to a photograph of the Casa Santa Barbara in his day?
 

Aniello

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Francese 2009 2010 2011 2013 2014 2015 la.plata 2016 francese 2018 maggio francese 2018 agosto porto
[QUOTE = "rappahannock_rev, post: 846116, membro: 16153"]
Quando ├Ę morto Ramon Sostres? Dove ├Ę sepolto? Qualcuno in grado di indicarci un necrologio o una sua fotografia? O a una fotografia di Casa Santa Barbara ai suoi tempi?
[/CITAZIONE]
Qui si fa interessante la
Here it gets interesting
 
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Bert45

Active Member
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(2003) Franc├ęs, (2014) Franc├ęs, (2016) Portugu├ęs , (2016) Aragon├ęs, (2018) del Norte to Primitivo,
Yep, Aniello. The satellite photo with the empty lot at 6 Calle la Carrera was taken this year, the Google Street View car last went by way back in 2012, apparently. Are those trees growing out of the roof in the 2012? No wonder the film's producers had to come up with a different location in 2010/2011, it was no doubt too far gone a year earlier than when this picture was snapped.
Let me see if I can get a picture to attach here:View attachment 73700
My picture on Google Earth says that the date of the imagery is 6/20/2015. It is copyrighted 2020. But, no matter, the house was there in 2012, but in ruins, and it wasn't there is 2015. I did not understand Karthar1na's comment: The photo of this blogger is worth looking at. It helped greatly to finally find a photo of Se├▒or Ram├│n's house! I thought she was saying that the photo shows Se├▒or Ram├│n's house, but that is not what she is saying. She says that the photo helped her to find a photo of the house. Two separate photos.
 

Bert45

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[QUOTE = "rappahannock_rev, post: 846116, membro: 16153"]
Quando ├Ę morto Ramon Sostres? Dove ├Ę sepolto? Qualcuno in grado di indicarci un necrologio o una sua fotografia? O a una fotografia di Casa Santa Barbara ai suoi tempi?
[/CITAZIONE]
Qui si fa interessante la
The plaque on the house in Calle San Andr├ęs says that he died in 2002. The + in "+2002" indicates that 2002 was the year of his death.
 

Bert45

Active Member
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La casa di el ramon e situata in calle el sepulcro 24 31229 torres del rio ad agosto 2019 era ancora l├Č con l interno come nel film..
Aniello wrote: The house of el ramon is located in calle el sepulcro [21] 31229 torres del rio in august 2019 it was still there with the interior as in the film. The house at Calle el Sepulcro 21 appears to be single-storied, from the view we have in the film and on Streetview, whereas the house in the film had a second storey. However, if you follow Streetview around to the side of the house in Calle los Fueros, you can see that there is a second storey. You can see the gate at the back from the outside:
1587684353441.png1587684421072.png
which matches up with the partial view of the back wall of the garden/bathroom seen in the film.
 

Kathar1na

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directs me to a street on the edge of town. Casa Santa Barbara is a stunning mansion, a wide boxy symmetry of two-story windows... A set of hedges frames an impressive entrance of twin doors. Every inch of the yellow stone is blanketed in luxurious green ivy. Above the door is a colorful tile depicting Santa Barbara
Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the house of Se├▒or Ram├│n in Torres del Rio has been found. Not only was it in the location as described by the elderly bar owner ("turn right just before the church - get off the Camino - and look for the empty lot past the bank"), it also fits Jack Hitt's description to a t. It is at the edge of town. It is a mansion. It has two stories. There is a twin door entry on one side and another door on the other side and, above this door, one can still see the place where the sculpture of Santa Barbara must have been.

House 2012.jpg
 
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Kathar1na

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I even found an older satellite image (2007) of Se├▒or Ram├│n's house where the roof is still intact, apart from one section where the roof has already fallen in and is open to the sky. I remember that one author described it as such. You can also see the neighbouring house with the characteristically shaped red roof that is shown in one of the blog photos and provided such a useful clue for the search. I reread part of Hitt's description of Ram├│n and I see that the scriptwriters for The Way copied it fairly accurately. However, there are other authors than Hitt and they give a different, more gentle description of Se├▒or Ram├│n. I, too, wondered whether he is buried in the cemetery up on the hill just after Torres del Rio. If I ever get there again, I will pay a visit.

House with roof.jpg
 
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Kathar1na

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Let me see if I can get a picture to attach here
It was only while I was viewing your screenshot that I noticed the sign on the wall of the top floor. The writing is covered by cables but one can clearly make out some of the letters. The last word is Barbara.

Barbara.jpg
 
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Bert45

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I, too, wondered whether he is buried in the cemetery up on the hill -- who was the other person who wondered the same thing, Kathar1na?
It's certainly been a week of wonders! So many mysteries solved!
 

Aniello

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Francese 2009 2010 2011 2013 2014 2015 la.plata 2016 francese 2018 maggio francese 2018 agosto porto
[QUOTE = "Bert45, post: 846135, membro: 76926"]
Aniello ha scritto: La casa di El Ramon si trova in calle el sepulcro [21] 31229 torres del rio nell'agosto 2019 era ancora l├Č con l'interno come nel film. La casa in Calle el Sepulcro 21 sembra essere un piano solo, dal punto di vista che abbiamo nel film e su Streetview, mentre la casa nel film aveva un secondo piano. Tuttavia, se segui Streetview intorno al lato della casa in Calle los Fueros, puoi vedere che c'├Ę un secondo piano. Puoi vedere il cancello sul retro dall'esterno:
[ATTACH = full] 73705 [/ attach] [attach = completa] 73706 [/ attach]
che coincide con la vista parziale della parete posteriore del giardino / bagno vista nel film.
[/ CITAZIONE]
La casa l
[QUOTE = "Bert45, post: 846180, membro: 76926"]
Anch'io mi chiedevo se fosse sepolto nel cimitero in cima alla collina - chi era l'altra persona che si chiedeva la stessa cosa, Katharna?
├ł stata sicuramente una settimana di meraviglie! Cos├Č tanti misteri risolti!
[/CITAZIONE]
Ciao bert mi sono attivato scrivendo una mail all ufficio di torres del rio chiedendo dove era sepolto il.sign sostres...e se avessero foto di archivio..vediamo se mi rispondono..
Hi bert I activated by writing an email to the torres del rio office asking where il.sign sostres was buried ... and if they had archive photos .. let's see if they answer me ..
 
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Kathar1na

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To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Franc├ęs; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
mi sono attivato scrivendo una mail all ufficio di torres del rio chiedendo dove era sepolto il.sign sostres...e se avessero foto di archivio..vediamo se mi rispondono..
Thank you for keeping us posted. And look what I've found: A photo with the inscription "Pino Toniolo in Torres del Rio with Ram├│n Sostres". It is published in the edition of "Peregrino" of 1 May 1990 and was taken in the summer of 1989, I think. Pino Toniolo is apparantly an Italian pilgrim who wrote an article about his pilgrimage in this edition of the Boletin of the Spanish Camino association. Se├▒or Sostres looks to me like I had imagined him from what I had read about him, a rather modest and gentle person.

Ram├│n Sostres 1990.jpg
 

Aniello

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Francese 2009 2010 2011 2013 2014 2015 la.plata 2016 francese 2018 maggio francese 2018 agosto porto
GraZie a te kthar x le preziose informazioni che hai dato insieme a bert ed altri appassionati...sto cercando il.massimo dei particolari perch├ę ad agosto ritorner├▓ sul cammino x la dodicesima volta e voglio dedicarlo ai luoghi che abbiamo condiviso su questa chat

GraZie to you kthar x the precious information you gave together with bert and other fans ... i am looking for the maximum of details because in august i will return on the way x the twelfth time and i want to dedicate it to the places we shared on this chat
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Raggy

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2017, 2018, 2019
I'm glad that I learned about Ram├│n Sostres from this thread. We owe a lot to those pioneers with their "build it and they will come" vision for the Camino.

I think, though, that El Ramon, as portrayed in the film, owes less to Ram├│n Sostres than it does to Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho. When "El Ramon" goes upstairs to serve himself wine and conduct both sides of a conversation, he is like Norman voicing the dialogue of a son and mother. It's said that Hitchcock chose the name Norman because it sounds like "Normal" and the name Marion was chosen as an "almost mirror" of Norman. Perhaps Estevez had all of that in mind when he planned this scene - and the fact that his father's name is Ramon may have convinced him that it was a good idea. Unfortunately, I don't think that he really establishes a reason for the pilgrims to be scared. You feel Jack's discomfort at the lack of an inside privy, for sure, but there's nothing creepy about El Ramon or the albergue. Until I realized that Estevez was playing back a snippet of Psycho at us, I couldn't really understand why they didn't want Tom to leave them behind downstairs (a nonsense, since he was the one going alone). Now that I know that there was a real Ramon, I don't know if it was such a good thing to throw in this flight of fancy.


Other movie and theatre references / homages -

Emilio Estevez has spoken about the plot's resemblance to The Wizard of Oz. (Dorothy on a journey with three companions - Scarecrow, Lion, and Tinman - who are all hoping to fix their problems in the Emerald City). I think this might be a half truth. I doubt that Estevez was thinking too much about The Wizard Of Oz. Literature and film is filled with "Hero's Journey" plots (e.g. The Odyssey, Lord of The Rings, ) so it's inevitable that they resemble each another. The Tom as Dorothy theory might have been a joke among the cast and crew during filming, rather than a real source of inspiration.

I'm convinced that the character of Jack draws from The Melancholy Jaques in As You Like It. When the trio meet Jack, he's lost in thought in the middle of a field - like Jaques who gets lost in his thoughts in the forest of Arden, Jack is introduced to us through an "almost monologue" about all the metaphors of the Camino - very much in the style of verbal prestidigitations of Jaques. (e.g. The Seven Degrees of Lying, The Seven Ages of Man). Apparently the part of Jack was originally written as an Englishman but James Nesbitt was excited about the film and asked for the part. Estevez decided not to ask Nesbitt to play an Englishman, but to have him do the part in his own voice.

Now that we've found (almost) all of the locations, how about finding all of the artistic references? We could map the Inside Camino of The Way.
 
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Raggy

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2017, 2018, 2019
which matches up with the partial view of the back wall of the garden/bathroom seen in the film.
Are you saying that they filmed the scene in the derelict house with the view of the actual garden? It seems unlikely to me, but stranger things happen.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Franc├ęs; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
I think, though, that El Ramon, as portrayed in the film, owes less to Ram├│n Sostres than it does to Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho.
I fail to be convinced. Did you read Jack Hitt's book that served as a basis for some of the movie content? Jack Hitt who was not a run-of-the-mill pilgrim who turned his diary notes into a self-published account available on Amazon for a handful of ÔéČ's or $'s but an accomplished journalist and author who wrote a book of camino stories that sold?

All I want to add is this: Emilio Estevez is no Quentin Tarantino. ­čĄö­čĄş
 

Camino Chrissy

Take one step forward...then keep on walking..
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 2015;
Norte/Primitivo 2016;
Frances 2017;
Le Puy 2018;
Portuguese/FishermanTr. 2019
I just noticed that I did't get email notifications when a new post appears in this thread, I guess that setting did not get transferred when the thread was split.
This happens to me eventually on most threads with the red notification bells and I never know why. The notifications hum along nicely for awhile and then seem to get very inconsistent or nonexistent and is sometimes frustrating. Do you or anyone else know what causes this? I am very techy challenged.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Us:Camino Frances, 2015 Me:Catalan/Aragonese, 2019
Unfortunately, I don't think that he really establishes a reason for the pilgrims to be scared. You feel Jack's discomfort at the lack of an inside privy, for sure, but there's nothing creepy about El Ramon or the albergue. Until I realized that Estevez was playing back a snippet of Psycho at us, I couldn't really understand why they didn't want Tom to leave them behind downstairs (a nonsense, since he was the one going alone).
I agree that Estevez missed the mark on making the scene scary but by having the trio want Tom's company he reinforces Tom as the central character (as he does again at the hotel).

Now that we've found (almost) all of the locations, how about finding all of the artistic references? We could map the Inside Camino of The Way.
I'm currently working on a webpage version of most everything (but it is a do when I feel like it project). It will be built off a database and some code so it will be easy to modify the presentation. I'll ask for comments on a draft version later.
 

Camino Chrissy

Take one step forward...then keep on walking..
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 2015;
Norte/Primitivo 2016;
Frances 2017;
Le Puy 2018;
Portuguese/FishermanTr. 2019
I'm currently working on a webpage version of most everything (but it is a do when I feel like it project). It will be built off a database and some code so it will be easy to modify the presentation. I'll ask for comments on a draft version later.
Wow, Rick, this is like a foreign language to me.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Us:Camino Frances, 2015 Me:Catalan/Aragonese, 2019
This happens to me eventually on most threads with the red notification bells and I never know why. The notifications hum along nicely for awhile and then seem to get very inconsistent or nonexistent and is sometimes frustrating. Do you or anyone else know what causes this? I am very techy challenged.
Sorry. You asked me about this earlier. I've been seeing this a lot myself recently. I can't think of a reason.

Sometimes when bugs like this happen it is jokingly blamed on the phase of the moon. A word processor I used actually did fail due to the phase of the moon.
:eek:o_O

It had a little add-on feature to display the phase (because the editing program was for nerds and programmers, so why not?). At a certain phase when the add-on was used it effected the main program.
 

Kathar1na

Member
Camino(s) past & future
To Santiago and beyond (from home; Voie de Tours; Camino Franc├ęs; Biskaya; Manche; Via Brabantica)
I agree that Estevez missed the mark on making the scene scary but by having the trio want Tom's company he reinforces Tom as the central character (as he does again at the hotel).
It's probably because I am not American, ie I don't have the cultural background of having grown up in America, that I also fail to see that 'The Way' retells the story of the 'Wizard of Oz'. Emilio Estevez claimed this repeatedly in 2011 in interviews when they promoted the movie and it made a good angle for headlines. 'My dad Martin Sheen is Dorothy ...'. But other than that? A few people meet who didn't know each other, travel together to some distant destination, have adventures, experience some conflict within the group, learn to understand each other better, become friends and undergo some inner change for the better ... aren't these the basic ingredients of hundreds if not thousands of story lines all over the world and throughout the centuries?
 

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Franc├ęs ('14/'15)
San Olav/CF ('16)
Baztan├ęs/CF ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/CF/Invierno ('19)
Do you or anyone else know what causes this? I am very techy challenged.
Maybe ask @ivar.
I have always assumed it's a way of encouraging thread obsolecence - to keep people moving to new threads instead of staying in one place. Forums grow faster that way, right?;)
 

Camino Chrissy

Take one step forward...then keep on walking..
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 2015;
Norte/Primitivo 2016;
Frances 2017;
Le Puy 2018;
Portuguese/FishermanTr. 2019
Maybe ask @ivar.
I have always assumed it's a way of encouraging thread obsolecence - to keep people moving to new threads instead of staying in one place. Forums grow faster that way, right?;)
Interesting thought/answer, VN...hmmm.
 

Raggy

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2017, 2018, 2019
... aren't these the basic ingredients of hundreds if not thousands of story lines all over the world and throughout the centuries?
Sure, because there are only seven stories in the world. Or is it three? Or eleven? Or ...

That said, The Way has maybe more in common with The Wizard of Oz than you're stating.
1) Like WOZ, the central character picks up his companions one-by-one, along the way, until they form a group of four.
2) Each of Tom's traveling companions has something missing (or thinks they have something missing) that they hope can be resolved by reaching Santiago (the Emerald City).
3) Tom, like Dorothy, didn't mean to be there at all. He was blown in by an ill wind (his son's death).
4) The journey they're on is distinct from, say, the journey in LOTR, which is defined by the destination and the task to be performed. In The Way and WOZ, for sure, there's a destination but, the journey is defined by the road - the yellow bricked/arrowed road.

Naturally, I could make a list of the things that differ - The lack of a big, bad, beast to conquer. The fact that Tom isn't trying to get home. In fact, he abandons his practice at the start of the film and he seems never to go back to his old life - He becomes a world traveler. The fact that the territory they pass through is mostly friendly, not hostile. The lack of large chorus numbers....
 

Bert45

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
(2003) Franc├ęs, (2014) Franc├ęs, (2016) Portugu├ęs , (2016) Aragon├ęs, (2018) del Norte to Primitivo,
I'm glad that I learned about Ram├│n Sostres from this thread. We owe a lot to those pioneers with their "build it and they will come" vision for the Camino.

I think, though, that El Ramon, as portrayed in the film, owes less to Ram├│n Sostres than it does to Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho. When "El Ramon" goes upstairs to serve himself wine and conduct both sides of a conversation, he is like Norman voicing the dialogue of a son and mother. It's said that Hitchcock chose the name Norman because it sounds like "Normal" and the name Marion was chosen as an "almost mirror" of Norman. Perhaps Estevez had all of that in mind when he planned this scene - and the fact that his father's name is Ramon may have convinced him that it was a good idea. Unfortunately, I don't think that he really establishes a reason for the pilgrims to be scared. You feel Jack's discomfort at the lack of an inside privy, for sure, but there's nothing creepy about El Ramon or the albergue. Until I realized that Estevez was playing back a snippet of Psycho at us, I couldn't really understand why they didn't want Tom to leave them behind downstairs (a nonsense, since he was the one going alone). Now that I know that there was a real Ramon, I don't know if it was such a good thing to throw in this flight of fancy.


Other movie and theatre references / homages -

Emilio Estevez has spoken about the plot's resemblance to The Wizard of Oz. (Dorothy on a journey with three companions - Scarecrow, Lion, and Tinman - who are all hoping to fix their problems in the Emerald City). I think this might be a half truth. I doubt that Estevez was thinking too much about The Wizard Of Oz. Literature and film is filled with "Hero's Journey" plots (e.g. The Odyssey, Lord of The Rings, ) so it's inevitable that they resemble each another. The Tom as Dorothy theory might have been a joke among the cast and crew during filming, rather than a real source of inspiration.

I'm convinced that the character of Jack draws from The Melancholy Jaques in As You Like It. When the trio meet Jack, he's lost in thought in the middle of a field - like Jaques who gets lost in his thoughts in the forest of Arden, Jack is introduced to us through an "almost monologue" about all the metaphors of the Camino - very much in the style of verbal prestidigitations of Jaques. (e.g. The Seven Degrees of Lying, The Seven Ages of Man). Apparently the part of Jack was originally written as an Englishman but James Nesbitt was excited about the film and asked for the part. Estevez decided not to ask Nesbitt to play an Englishman, but to have him do the part in his own voice.

Now that we've found (almost) all of the locations, how about finding all of the artistic references? We could map the Inside Camino of The Way.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
 

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