Women and personal safety on the Camino

[Chacharm]

I am really surprised that the thread started by a woman who was concerned about a man in a Mercedes had such a condemning response and so much haranguing about laws in Spain about which side of the road to walk on.
So I just want to say a thing or two about (and to) women walking the Camino - alone or in groups.

Women live in a different world than do men. It does not matter our age or relative attractiveness - we are targets for a lot of men. We have a heightened sense of danger that other people, particularly males, tend to ignore or find silly. I once ignored a bad feeling I got from a passing car when I was out for a run near my home - and nearly got myself raped or worse for it.

A man exposing himself or masturbating in public might not seem like a terribly threatening thing in and of itself to some people - but for most women it should indicate a potential for sexual/predatory violence.

Pay attention to your surroundings. Do not ignore your intuition. Stay aware. If a situation seems suspicious assume that it is and move away. Take pictures of people and vehicles that are alarming on any level and text them to friends or family. Ask people who are in the know about the road ahead when you are on Camino. Find out if there are stretches that might be worrisome for a woman alone or walking with a younger person. If so, join a group as you walk that day.
Don't be paranoid - be prepared. Be smart. Don't let another person tell you that a man is staring at you because you are not walking on the correct side of the road or that you have nothing to worry about when you are alarmed.
It is easy to feel safe and let your guard down completely when you're on the Camino meeting so many nice people and feeling so happy out in fresh air every day - and that is a wonderful aspect of the Camino. It also makes it easy to tell yourself you don't hear the warning bells going off in your head.
And if someone tells you about her concern about a particular person or car or place you might try believing that she is not a silly worry wart and pay her heed.

 

[JohnMcM]

I am really surprised that the thread started by a woman who was concerned about a man in a Mercedes had such a condemning response and so much haranguing about laws in Spain about which side of the road to walk on.
So I just want to say a thing or two about (and to) women walking the Camino - alone or in groups.

Women live in a different world than do men. It does not matter our age or relative attractiveness - we are targets for a lot of men. We have a heightened sense of danger that other people, particularly males, tend to ignore or find silly. I once ignored a bad feeling I got from a passing car when I was out for a run near my home - and nearly got myself raped or worse for it.

A man exposing himself or masturbating in public might not seem like a terribly threatening thing in and of itself to some people - but for most women it should indicate a potential for sexual/predatory violence.

Pay attention to your surroundings. Do not ignore your intuition. Stay aware. If a situation seems suspicious assume that it is and move away. Take pictures of people and vehicles that are alarming on any level and text them to friends or family. Ask people who are in the know about the road ahead when you are on Camino. Find out if there are stretches that might be worrisome for a woman alone or walking with a younger person. If so, join a group as you walk that day.
Don't be paranoid - be prepared. Be smart. Don't let another person tell you that a man is staring at you because you are not walking on the correct side of the road or that you have nothing to worry about when you are alarmed.
It is easy to feel safe and let your guard down completely when you're on the Camino meeting so many nice people and feeling so happy out in fresh air every day - and that is a wonderful aspect of the Camino. It also makes it easy to tell yourself you don't hear the warning bells going off in your head.
And if someone tells you about her concern about a particular person or car or place you might try believing that she is not a silly worry wart and pay her heed.

How I truly wish that posts like this one were not necessary.

 

[grayland]

The "other thread" referred to by the OP has been closed because of remarks directed at other members and becoming off-topic.

Do not use this thread to continue the discourse or it will also be closed.

 

[julia-t]

I too wish posts like this were not necessary, but sadly it seems to be a fact of life that we need to be so much more aware and cautious. As I write this, a picture of missing Denise is on the right side of the screen.

I've not yet even started my Camino, and I will be walking short stretches over many years. But it is always good to be alert and aware. It does seem to me that would-be 'predators ' could view the Camino as an easy target for solo walkers if they were so inclined.

It's not just in Spain on the Camino though. This sort of thing can happen anywhere. I have felt very vulnerable when walking solo on remote footpaths in England. And women are not necessarily the only targets/victims.

Take care, my Camino friends, and be safe.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

I too wish posts like this were not necessary, but sadly it seems to be a fact of life that we need to be so much more aware and cautious. As I write this, a picture of missing Denise is on the right side of the screen.

I've not yet even started my Camino, and I will be walking short stretches over many years. But it is always good to be alert and aware. It does seem to me that would-be 'predators ' could view the Camino as an easy target for solo walkers if they were so inclined.

It's not just in Spain on the Camino though. This sort of thing can happen anywhere. I have felt very vulnerable when walking solo on remote footpaths in England. And women are not necessarily the only targets/victims.

Take care, my Camino friends, and be safe.

Hi Julia, you are so wright.
I wish you happy trails and a wonderful Camino.

 

[Dondee]

What i have found is thats everyone looks out for eachother. You walk one day and have an extended family of 20+. Its safe. Just keep your wits and listen to your gut and you will be fine. Walk within sight of people in front or behind you if you feel uncomfortable. You can still experience the walk alone without being the only person in the trail. Buen camino!!

 

[Seabird]

Pay attention to your surroundings. Do not ignore your intuition. Stay aware. If a situation seems suspicious assume that it is and move away. Take pictures of people and vehicles that are alarming on any level and text them to friends or family. Ask people who are in the know about the road ahead when you are on Camino. Find out if there are stretches that might be worrisome for a woman alone or walking with a younger person. If so, join a group as you walk that day.
Don't be paranoid - be prepared. Be smart. Don't let another person tell you that a man is staring at you because you are not walking on the correct side of the road or that you have nothing to worry about when you are alarmed.
It is easy to feel safe and let your guard down completely when you're on the Camino meeting so many nice people and feeling so happy out in fresh air every day - and that is a wonderful aspect of the Camino. It also makes it easy to tell yourself you don't hear the warning bells going off in your head.
And if someone tells you about her concern about a particular person or car or place you might try believing that she is not a silly worry wart and pay her heed.

Well said and smart advice. I was once given the book "The Gift of Fear," which provides good advice about following your intuition.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

I am really surprised that the thread started by a woman who was concerned about a man in a Mercedes had such a condemning response and so much haranguing about laws in Spain about which side of the road to walk on.
So I just want to say a thing or two about (and to) women walking the Camino - alone or in groups.

Women live in a different world than do men. It does not matter our age or relative attractiveness - we are targets for a lot of men. We have a heightened sense of danger that other people, particularly males, tend to ignore or find silly. I once ignored a bad feeling I got from a passing car when I was out for a run near my home - and nearly got myself raped or worse for it.

A man exposing himself or masturbating in public might not seem like a terribly threatening thing in and of itself to some people - but for most women it should indicate a potential for sexual/predatory violence.

Pay attention to your surroundings. Do not ignore your intuition. Stay aware. If a situation seems suspicious assume that it is and move away. Take pictures of people and vehicles that are alarming on any level and text them to friends or family. Ask people who are in the know about the road ahead when you are on Camino. Find out if there are stretches that might be worrisome for a woman alone or walking with a younger person. If so, join a group as you walk that day.
Don't be paranoid - be prepared. Be smart. Don't let another person tell you that a man is staring at you because you are not walking on the correct side of the road or that you have nothing to worry about when you are alarmed.
It is easy to feel safe and let your guard down completely when you're on the Camino meeting so many nice people and feeling so happy out in fresh air every day - and that is a wonderful aspect of the Camino. It also makes it easy to tell yourself you don't hear the warning bells going off in your head.
And if someone tells you about her concern about a particular person or car or place you might try believing that she is not a silly worry wart and pay her heed.

Thanks so much. I completely agree with you.

Today, for the first time ever, I told my husband the complete story of a very bad experience I had with a flasher. He was surprised, and noted that I'd never told him before--and we've been together for fourteen years.

I find such incidents irritating, upsetting, and disgusting, but I told him because he asked about it. He brought it up--so he got the full story with detail. I also mentioned what I learned from it, and he was cheering when I got to the part of the story of the perp getting a few thousand hours of community service and a blemish on his record. Husband was delighted that I saw it through to court.

Yes---we live in a different world. I'm glad to have such wonderful and supportive friends who will look after me on Camino, and I plan to be alert, happy, and prepared!

 

[nellpilgrim]

Look out for each other. And if you're walking with a friend, or group of friends, and see a solo female pilgrim- let her know (even with body language if need be) that it's ok to tag along on lonelier/more difficult stretches. Who knows she could become one of your 'besties'. Sometimes, even if you've a neck like a jockey's bottom, it can be a bit hard to break into a 'tight' group of friends- especially if that friendship has been forged sharing intense experiences over a long distance. Being a little mindful of solo pilgrims starting their Caminos after your own, in places like Burgos, Leon or Astorga etc, will help all our journeys.

 

[zzotte]

I agreed, even as a men in a solo walk found at times in certain cities the need to follow a small group when I felt very uneasy.

Zzotte

 

[SafariGirl]

Well said and smart advice. I was once given the book "The Gift of Fear," which provides good advice about following your intuition.

I also read this Seabird, as a lone runner on country lanes, and I found it very helpful.

 

[Chacharm]

Look out for each other. And if you're walking with a friend, or group of friends, and see a solo female pilgrim- let her know (even with body language if need be) that it's ok to tag along on lonelier/more difficult stretches. Who knows she could become one of your 'besties'. Sometimes, even if you've a neck like a jockey's bottom, it can be a bit hard for to break into a 'tight' group of friends- especially if that friendship has been forged sharing intense experiences over a long distance. Being a little mindful of solo pilgrims starting their Caminos after your own, in places like Burgos, Leon or Astorga etc, will help all our journeys.

OK - I love "a neck like a jockey's bottom" so much - but WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?!

 

[Chacharm]

Thanks so much. I completely agree with you.

Today, for the first time ever, I told my husband the complete story of a very bad experience I had with a flasher. He was surprised, and noted that I'd never told him before--and we've been together for fourteen years.

I find such incidents irritating, upsetting, and disgusting, but I told him because he asked about it. He brought it up--so he got the full story with detail. I also mentioned what I learned from it, and he was cheering when I got to the part of the story of the perp getting a few thousand hours of community service and a blemish on his record. Husband was delighted that I saw it through to court.

Yes---we live in a different world. I'm glad to have such wonderful and supportive friends who will look after me on Camino, and I plan to be alert, happy, and prepared!

Good on ya!
Younger women might not be aware of it - but most of us who have some experience under our belts have ignored what didn't do us physical harm to some extent. It seems polite and level headed to ignore a "flasher" (cute word for a loathsome person) or a man who is just staring or who said something creepy and then moved on - we all do it. We don't want to be alarmist or squeeky! My husband is also shocked when these stories come out...I think men who don't behave that way have absolutely no idea how many men do - nor how often.
The man who followed me in that car was a serial rapist who stalked me for over a year. Even the police were concerned that I wasn't taking him seriously enough. And I wasn't until he tried to break into my house.
Even as I write this I worry that I sound alarmist. Sigh.
Alert, Happy and Prepared needs to be the slogan!

 

[Seabird]

Even as I write this I worry that I sound alarmist. Sigh.

No, you don't. And even if you did, you had a sadly good reason to be. Hope all is OK now.

 

[julia-t]

OK - I love "a neck like a jockey's bottom" so much - but WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?!

Seems to me to be a great alternative way to say if you have the confidence to stick your neck out (as jockeys stick their bums out of the saddle) ...etc. I shall remember that and try to use it in future conversation!

 

[nellpilgrim]

OK - I love "a neck like a jockey's bottom" so much - but WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?!

Actually it's a slightly ruder, though perhaps more accurate, word than bottom…….but I was conscious of not offending anyone but the phrase means you aren't slow at coming forward and pushing your own agenda and/or you believe that you automatically deserve something without any reference to skill or merit. I'm afraid that there are many examples of this kind of behaviour in public life…….

 

[november_moon]

My husband is also shocked when these stories come out...I think men who don't behave that way have absolutely no idea how many men do - nor how often.

Yes, I think you are right. It really does only happen when women are alone, or with other women, not when other men are around. How often does it happen that some man will be relentlessly hitting on a woman, and then stop as soon as that woman's husband, boyfriend, male friend, etc. arrives? He won't stop when SHE says she is uninterested, but as soon as another man shows up (who has a "prior claim") he stops. Men just don't witness this type of behavior from creepy men because the creepy men stop being creepy immediately when other men are around.

 

[Chacharm]

No, you don't. And even if you did, you had a sadly good reason to be. Hope all is OK now.

Oh yes. That was years ago.

 

[Chacharm]

Yes, I think you are right. It really does only happen when women are alone, or with other women, not when other men are around. How often does it happen that some man will be relentlessly hitting on a woman, and then stop as soon as that woman's husband, boyfriend, male friend, etc. arrives? He won't stop when SHE says she is uninterested, but as soon as another man shows up (who has a "prior claim") he stops. Men just don't witness this type of behavior from creepy men because the creepy men stop being creepy immediately when other men are around.

Too true.
When my son was little - about 9, he used to ride his bike alongside me as I ran around a trail at the park opposite our house. Men would drive by SCREAMING and honking their horns...once scaring my son so badly he wiped out on his bike. So he grew up with a healthy (?) understanding of the world women live in. Another time I stopped on our way home from school to get gas. After I pulled into our driveway and got out a police car pulled up behind me. The cop said he had run my plates from the gas station and had come to my house to see if I was single and if I wanted to go out for dinner? My son got out of the car and the cop didn't bat an eye - said he could arrange for a sitter if I needed one. A man who also had a son on my son's Little League team wrote his number down on my son's palm asking me to call him if I was interested in a date. The children of single mothers often see what others do not. To his credit it made an excellent feminist of him!

 

[Albertagirl]

I am reporting an incident where my personal safety was threatened but Idid not think I could report it to the police. I am a single woman walking the Camino Frances alone. Yesterday I st ahead in the municipal albergue Cluny in Sahagun. In the afternoon, I walked to the plaza mayor to find a restaurant offering a pilgrim's menu at a reasonable price. A man came up to me in the plaza asking me something in thickly accented English. I did not understand him, until he pointed to his watch and I realized that he was asking me the time. I said brusquely, "If you have a watch you don't have to ask me for the time" and I moved away. In the evening, after a good dinner, I found tha t I had stiffened up so I could not stand up until I leaned on the table for a few minutes. I regretted that I had not brought my wali g stick for support. When I could finally stand I went outside and in a moment I saw this same man coming out of a dark doorway opposite me. I joined a family group moving along the square, then a mother and child, but eventually I found myself walking alone up a street toward the albergue. As a consequence of this experience, I have decided not to visit the bank that I had checked out for today's opening hours when I first went to the square. I do not know for how long this man had been following me. And I shall carry my walking stick with me at all times for support and defence. Men like this are everywhere.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Yesterday as my two companions and I were walking into Leon, we had a man following us all the way to Santa Maria. We walked slow, we walked fast, finally we lost him. Just two blocks shy of Santa Maria, he reappeared. I told my friends let's go – – and they sped up. They are much smaller than I am. He walked behind them and I was watching him because he was acting pretty weird. Next, they passed in but he grabbed me by both shoulders and tried to pull me in for a kiss on the mouth. I gave him a quick shove which was very effective since my upper body is so strong at this point.

This was not the European kiss on both cheeks as a good luck and buen Camino.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I wonder what the law in Spain says about knocking a creep like that over the head with your walking sticks!?

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Ha ha! Honestly, my husband was amused because he was surprised that I didn't really give him a big clout upside the head ! Interestingly, my husband just not worry very much for my safety because he knows that I am very capable of taking care of myself. I seriously pity the person that tries to do that again. Again, I am not talking about the very respectful and courteous kiss kiss on either side of the face from a decent European man. I am talking about a full on grab and attempt!

 

[vegoodrich]

Just back from the Camino last Wednesday and overall as a solo walking woman had no issues at all. If anything I found that men traveling in groups tend to make sure to look out for solo female pilgrims. One night I was in an albergue with about a dozen male Spanish road bikers and they all made a point of ensuring that I felt comfortable. There was only one time while starting off in the dark (the sunrise was not until about 8:30 when I was there) that I came upon a male on the way in front of me stopped. He said something about dogs and being worried ahead. I simply told him I needed to get a friend and went back to the albergue to get a 'beard' as some of us called a guy that you may need to walk with for a bit. It turns out this man was just a little slow and looking to walk with people with headlamps for a bit that morning. No harm in going to get someone else to walk with if you aren't sure. Overall, be aware but not alarmed.

 

[ShellsG]

I only had one issue on the Camino, on one of the final days heading out of Lavacolla actually. As I went by the steps of the church I saw a young man (17 - 19 maybe) in sunglasses and a blue shirt with a yellow arrow on it sitting on the steps. There was an older gentleman selling trinkets out of his van right there as well. I stopped to look at his wares and then purchased a couple of items. I then noticed this young man at the fountain. Really didn't think anything of it and started on my way out of town. I found the way marking poor and when I got to the highway this young man was there, I asked if he knew the way and he shrugged and said no. I went to a nearby Tabac shop down the block and asked them for directions, when I came out this young man was sitting on a bench outside the door. Weird ... but harmless. I started down the path on a beautiful day when at one point I turned around and there was this young man. He had no pack, no water bottle, nothing. I picked up my pace up the hill because there were no other pilgrims around and he was making me nervous and I saw him wave back down the road and yell "this way". I walked he walked. I stopped for a drink of water and he would stop. Soon he was joined by 3 young girls (15 - 16 maybe). They either always walked right in front of me or right behind. Again, its the trail so there wasn't any reason to be to suspicious but my mind was really getting the best of me and I tried to not let them be behind me if I couldn't see any other pilgrims. Just before Monte de Gozo the three girls came right up to me very close and wanted to know if I was going to such and such a place (I couldn't really understand what she was saying) and I firmly said no. Meanwhile the young man was coming up to me from my left side and I just backed up and turned and walked away. A german fellow asked me if there was a problem and I said they wanted to know if I was going to such and such. He said they will figure it out. That was the last time I saw them. Now in fairness, there was a group of young people all walking together that stopped at the albergue there but these four never seemed to be a part of them. Maybe I was just paranoid .... it was broad daylight !! Even now as I think about it I am not sure what the deal was.

 

[Icacos]

I only had one issue on the Camino, on one of the final days heading out of Lavacolla actually. As I went by the steps of the church I saw a young man (17 - 19 maybe) in sunglasses and a blue shirt with a yellow arrow on it sitting on the steps. There was an older gentleman selling trinkets out of his van right there as well. I stopped to look at his wares and then purchased a couple of items. I then noticed this young man at the fountain. Really didn't think anything of it and started on my way out of town. I found the way marking poor and when I got to the highway this young man was there, I asked if he knew the way and he shrugged and said no. I went to a nearby Tabac shop down the block and asked them for directions, when I came out this young man was sitting on a bench outside the door. Weird ... but harmless. I started down the path on a beautiful day when at one point I turned around and there was this young man. He had no pack, no water bottle, nothing. I picked up my pace up the hill because there were no other pilgrims around and he was making me nervous and I saw him wave back down the road and yell "this way". I walked he walked. I stopped for a drink of water and he would stop. Soon he was joined by 3 young girls (15 - 16 maybe). They either always walked right in front of me or right behind. Again, its the trail so there wasn't any reason to be to suspicious but my mind was really getting the best of me and I tried to not let them be behind me if I couldn't see any other pilgrims. Just before Monte de Gozo the three girls came right up to me very close and wanted to know if I was going to such and such a place (I couldn't really understand what she was saying) and I firmly said no. Meanwhile the young man was coming up to me from my left side and I just backed up and turned and walked away. A german fellow asked me if there was a problem and I said they wanted to know if I was going to such and such. He said they will figure it out. That was the last time I saw them. Now in fairness, there was a group of young people all walking together that stopped at the albergue there but these four never seemed to be a part of them. Maybe I was just paranoid .... it was broad daylight !! Even now as I think about it I am not sure what the deal was.

Hmmmm........it does seem a bit strange. Thanks for posting.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Just back from the Camino last Wednesday and overall as a solo walking woman had no issues at all. If anything I found that men traveling in groups tend to make sure to look out for solo female pilgrims. One night I was in an albergue with about a dozen male Spanish road bikers and they all made a point of ensuring that I felt comfortable. There was only one time while starting off in the dark (the sunrise was not until about 8:30 when I was there) that I came upon a male on the way in front of me stopped. He said something about dogs and being worried ahead. I simply told him I needed to get a friend and went back to the albergue to get a 'beard' as some of us called a guy that you may need to walk with for a bit. It turns out this man was just a little slow and looking to walk with people with headlamps for a bit that morning. No harm in going to get someone else to walk with if you aren't sure. Overall, be aware but not alarmed.

I'm having similar experiences. There is an interesting handful of foreign beggars, sometimes in remote locations---

I only had one issue on the Camino, on one of the final days heading out of Lavacolla actually. As I went by the steps of the church I saw a young man (17 - 19 maybe) in sunglasses and a blue shirt with a yellow arrow on it sitting on the steps. There was an older gentleman selling trinkets out of his van right there as well. I stopped to look at his wares and then purchased a couple of items. I then noticed this young man at the fountain. Really didn't think anything of it and started on my way out of town. I found the way marking poor and when I got to the highway this young man was there, I asked if he knew the way and he shrugged and said no. I went to a nearby Tabac shop down the block and asked them for directions, when I came out this young man was sitting on a bench outside the door. Weird ... but harmless. I started down the path on a beautiful day when at one point I turned around and there was this young man. He had no pack, no water bottle, nothing. I picked up my pace up the hill because there were no other pilgrims around and he was making me nervous and I saw him wave back down the road and yell "this way". I walked he walked. I stopped for a drink of water and he would stop. Soon he was joined by 3 young girls (15 - 16 maybe). They either always walked right in front of me or right behind. Again, its the trail so there wasn't any reason to be to suspicious but my mind was really getting the best of me and I tried to not let them be behind me if I couldn't see any other pilgrims. Just before Monte de Gozo the three girls came right up to me very close and wanted to know if I was going to such and such a place (I couldn't really understand what she was saying) and I firmly said no. Meanwhile the young man was coming up to me from my left side and I just backed up and turned and walked away. A german fellow asked me if there was a problem and I said they wanted to know if I was going to such and such. He said they will figure it out. That was the last time I saw them. Now in fairness, there was a group of young people all walking together that stopped at the albergue there but these four never seemed to be a part of them. Maybe I was just paranoid .... it was broad daylight !! Even now as I think about it I am not sure what the deal was.

it sounds like you were really aware of what was happening around you. We all have to be aware. Not looking for trouble, but not ignoring it either.

 

[oursonpolaire]

I wonder what the law in Spain says about knocking a creep like that over the head with your walking sticks!?

The internet, a source of all that which is true and valid, tells us: Legitimate Self Defence has certain requirements essential to be recognised as such by the Spanish State legal system. Those requirements are as follows (article 8, number 4 of the Spanish Criminal Code) : There must be prior unlawful aggression, There must be a rational response used to repel such aggression, and The Defendant must not have provoked the aggression.

That's not legal advice, of course, but we are talking about self-defence, not retribution.

 

[Kanga]

Interesting the subtle differences between countries. In Australia self defence only requires "a reasonable apprehension" of violence. It sounds as if the standard is stricter in Spain, if there has to be actual prior unlawful aggression.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Interesting the subtle differences between countries. In Australia self defence only requires "a reasonable apprehension" of violence. It sounds as if the standard is stricter in Spain, if there has to be actual prior unlawful aggression.

Honestly, how we feel about a situation does not really justify becoming violent! That's why I tend to just distance myself, yell, get rude, and also why the fellow who grabbed me simply got grabbed and shoved back. I'm not out for hurting people, just for making sure that I don't become a target for their perversion whatever that maybe!

An interesting sidenote: I helped a very pretty young woman many years ago back in the USA, and as it turns out she and her sister were both incarcerated felons, and I was probably in worse danger from a small woman in the USA then I was from this big guy over here in Spain. Just a side note, mind you!

One time in Cambodia when I got mugged, I told the guy who is searching me with a gun held on me that I was the same age as his grandmother. He immediately stopped searching me and let me keep a very expensive ring. That didn't stop him from tweaking a certain part of my body.

OK! Only 293 km to go until Santiago. I'm off!

 

[Kanga]

@CaminoDebrita self-defence (at least in Australia) is that, i.e. defence. It can only be proportionate to the threat.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Good. Here in the USA some folks go over the top.

 

[JillGat]

Good. Here in the USA some folks go over the top.

To put it mildly!

 

[jumpingin2014]

@CaminoDebrita self-defence (at least in Australia) is that, i.e. defence. It can only be proportionate to the threat.

I'm not saying what you say Kanga isn't reasonable or logical. I wonder how you assess proportionate when someone grabs you after following you for a number of hours. Especially right in the heat of the moment - when they grab you. I don't think a bash on the head with a walking stick is out of line with what some would consider proportionate. I'm just thinking of proximity of the danger versus getting to safety. I agree with AnnieSantiago.

Mark

 

[Kanga]

Eeeek! How people do jump to conclusions. I'm not making a comment about any particular behaviour. Or judgements about what is right or wrong, good or bad. Simply that there are differences between countries in the law and, as a lawyer, that is technically interesting.