Words Do Not Lie

[scruffy1]

I have written more than once concerning a subject which continues to frustrate me, namely, the mis-orientation of the maps offered in guide books for the Camino. As one who loves maps and orienteering, a pilgrim who carries the compass given to him by his father 50 years ago I cannot bear a map which is "wrongly" positioned. John Brierley is guilty and has even invented a sun-reckoning justification, José María Anguita Jaén also is guilty, only the Michelin handbooks for the French Chemins remain true. I realize the constrictions of page size and shape, I am still unhappy. Which brings us to the word Azimuth. Azimuth stems from the Old French azimut, from Arabic as-samt, from al ‘the’ + samt ‘way, direction.’ So from an Arabic word meaning The Way, oh dear (!), we find in translation, El Camino. Zenith, that position in the visible sky or universe directly over your head, comes from the same root. Words do not lie.

 

[wayfarer]

Have to agree with you scruffy1 that is why I like the Michelin Guide even though it hasn't been updated since 2012 for albergues etc, but you can get all that info in the Resources Section here. (I also like "Track Up" orientation.)

 

[BethC]

Interesting and scholarly information. That map orientation part does make things unnecessarily difficult - I've been turning the book all around trying to line them up with google maps.

 

[Felice]

Quite agree, I hate those misorientated schematic maps, but then I am a map lover. I took the Red guide last year, which has proper maps with N at the top of the page and no distortion. Those maps saved me one day when I took a wrong turn and went all the way down a substantial hill before I knew for sure that I was wrong when I came to a road. Using my compass and the map, I was able to work out where I was and find the way again without having to resort to climbing all the way back up the hill again.

I realise that lots of people find maps quite difficult, which is why satnavs are so popular. Brierly's maps are orientated in the direction of travel to help those who feel less confident with maps.

Recently, I was in Croydon, and was totally confused by some 'you are here' maps next to a bus stop. They were orientated in the direction of travel (to the south), and initially I could not understand them as my mental map was orientated the opposite way.

I assume that you have visited the Madaba mosaics and seen the 6th century map of the world, with Jerusalem at the centre and north to the left. Just goes to show that North to the top is just a convention!

 

[waveprof]

As someone with a PhD in English married to someone with a PhD in Spanish, Ive always been trained that the only constant about words is that they always lie!


But I agree with what you have to say about the maps.

 

[Tincatinker]

As an ex Ordnance Survey surveyor I can assure you all that maps lie all the time. Depicting the curved surface of the Earth on flat paper produces some interesting distortions. There all those arbitrary decisions on Map North as opposed to Geographic (Polar) North and Magnetic North. The graphic representation of geographic features can lead to all sorts of problems. Nicholas Crane's description, in Clear Water Rising, of searching for a conical peak in the Picos de Europa close to the Camino Vadiniense that turned out to be an Hoyo, a sink-hole, is a telling account of the lies that maps can tell.

 

[Kanga]

All I know is that the sun rises in the east, sets in the west, and the sun comes through north facing windows....

But I completely agree with @scruffy1 about maps.

 

[Felice]

Splitting hairs, I know, but let's be accurate since you are talking about words not lying - azimuth is from the plural of سَمْت, al sumut, pronounced assumut, so it means the ways, rather than The Way.

 

[Icacos]

All I know is that .......the sun comes through north facing windows....

And it comes through the south facing windows up North.

 

[wayfarer]

Unless you are in Ireland at the moment, in which case it doesn't come through any window.

 

[Mark Lee]

The Camino Frances can, and is, walked by many who do it sans any map or guidebook at all. And for those that do use a guidebook, any of the guidebooks, the maps within are more than adequate for the task at hand. That being pointing the average pilgrim, who has little or no knowledge in maps, orienteering, land navigation, etc in the right direction and getting him or her from point A to point B.

 

[Kanga]

@Icacos exactly. Which is why all you northerners get lost.

 

[dougfitz]

And it comes through the south facing windows up North.

I have always wondered how people in the northern hemisphere can live with the sun coming into their houses from the wrong direction. It must be so difficult for you all!

 

[dougfitz]

@Icacos exactly. Which is why all you northerners get lost.

@Kanga, I have to admit that I normally get lost for the first few days when I travel to the northern hemisphere. It takes me that long to realise that they have been incredibly careless, and let the sun wander around so that it is in the south. How careless of them.

 

[Icacos]

I have always wondered how people in the northern hemisphere can live with the sun coming into their houses from the wrong direction. It must be so difficult for you all!

@Icacos exactly. Which is why all you northerners get lost.

We've been through this before... At least we in the north stand on our feet. Can't say the same for you guys down south.

 

[Castilian]

they have been incredibly careless, and let the sun wander around so that it is in the south. How careless of them.

What adjective would you use for those in the Arctic (and in the Antartic) who have the sun working for them full time for days without giving it a break?

 

[Anemone del Camino]

And it comes through the south facing windows up North.

Thank you, I was tryng to figure this one out and was uterly confused.

 

[Kanga]

What adjective would you use for those in the Arctic (and in the Antartic) who have the sun working for them full time for days without giving it a break?

Tired.

 

[Icacos]

The sun works in Antarctica for six months, then it gets six months off. I think the Aussies call that 'long service leave.'

How did we get on to this nonsense?

 

[Bernard duffy]

I wake up on the Camino,point my nose in the direction i want to go and just walk,simple.Maps are for old folk anyway

 

[TerryB]

I love maps and useless bits of info
Use logic!
There is a square house somewhere in the world.
Four walls with a window on each wall.
All the windows face south.
A bear walks past the window.
What colour is the bear?

Tio Tel.

 

[Icacos]

I love maps and useless bits of info
Use logic!
There is a square house somewhere in the world.
Four walls with a window on each wall.
All the windows face south.
A bear walks past the window.
What colour is the bear?

Tio Tel.

White ??????????????

 

[bystander]

I have always wondered how people in the northern hemisphere can live with the sun coming into their houses from the wrong direction. It must be so difficult for you all!

But, dougfitz, regardless of hemisphere it still rises in the east and sets in the west!

 

[dougfitz]

But, dougfitz, regardless of hemisphere it still rises in the east and sets in the west!

That is a very rough generalisation! It's only strictly true at the equinoxes, when it is true around the whole world. At other times the sun rises and sets north or south of east and west. In the extreme, it rises and sets in the north or the south!

 

[bystander]

Pedantry rules supreme!!

I surrender.

 

[dougfitz]

Pedantry rules supreme!!

I surrender.

It's not pedantry, it's science

 

[Icacos]

...... and let the sun wander around so .......

That is a very rough generalisation! It's only strictly true at the equinoxes, when it is true around the whole world. At other times the sun rises and sets north or south of east and west. In the extreme, it rises and sets in the north or the south!

Gosh, Doug, the sun is wandering around in your own mind!

 

[TerryB]

White ??????????????

Correct! Go to the top of the geography class

Tio Tel

 

[Kanga]

You guys make me laugh. Good stuff, even if completely off topic.

 

[Kitsambler]

For those of us North Americans of a certain vintage, who were raised using the Automobile Association end-on-end "tripTik" maps, the orientation to direction of travel seems perfectly normal. I think we do ourselves a considerable disservice by always conceiving the world with "north at the top". If any other configuration is intolerable, I must assume that you never drive in a southbound, eastbound, or westbound direction. Besides, exercising your spatial imagination improves your brain flexibility!

 

[whariwharangi]

I have written more than once concerning a subject which continues to frustrate me, namely, the mis-orientation of the maps offered in guide books for the Camino. As one who loves maps and orienteering, a pilgrim who carries the compass given to him by his father 50 years ago I cannot bear a map which is "wrongly" positioned. John Brierley is guilty and has even invented a sun-reckoning justification, José María Anguita Jaén also is guilty, only the Michelin handbooks for the French Chemins remain true. I realize the constrictions of page size and shape, I am still unhappy. Which brings us to the word Azimuth. Azimuth stems from the Old French azimut, from Arabic as-samt, from al ‘the’ + samt ‘way, direction.’ So from an Arabic word meaning The Way, oh dear (!), we find in translation, El Camino. Zenith, that position in the visible sky or universe directly over your head, comes from the same root. Words do not lie.

If your destination is Santiago why would you begin to care which way is North? The Brierley Map has figured that out.

Else you should carry a sextant, a star almanac or solar ephemeris, and a watch.

 

[Coleen Clark]

What adjective would you use for those in the Arctic (and in the Antartic) who have the sun working for them full time for days without giving it a break?

Cold.

 

[jmcarp]

Just think of Brierley's maps as one of the automotive GPS units which give an option of "North Up" or "Direction of Travel Up". Being something of a map geek myself, my first inclination in setting up my GPS was to go with "North Up," but I soon realized that "Direction of Travel Up" was much more intuitive -- at least for me -- when glancing at the GPS while driving. If I'm not mistaken, even the moving map displays used in aircraft use the direction of travel up orientation. I've come to the conclusion that a large percentage of the population just isn't spatially-oriented in their understanding of maps; i.e., they think in terms of up-down/left-right rather than north-south/east-west. Perhaps such people don't think in terms of the big picture, and are only concerned with their immediate surroundings or how to get from Point A to Point B. For instance, my wife always turns a paper map around to "destination up" to get oriented when reading a map; whereas I'm OK with either concept as long as there is a north arrow somewhere to let me know which way is north.

Maybe we should all just walk the Camino Portugués -- then the maps would be oriented correctly for everyone.

(By the way, in addition to the Michelin and other guides mentioned in previous posts, the Dintaman/Landis Hiking the Camino de Santiago guidebook for the CF as well as the no longer available Pili Pala Press Camino de Santiago Map for the CF are are oriented "correctly" with north up maps.)

 

[AJ]

Words do not lie.

Oh yes they do!!

 

[Felice]

Oh yes they do!!

Words are slippery things.

Some words mean one thing to you and another to me.

Some words mean different things in different contexts.

Some words have changed their meaning over time.

Words are living evolving things, just like the humans who created them.

Words can turn around and bite you or haunt you, they can bewitch or deceive you, or they can sooth and comfort or support and encourage you.

Bit like us, really

 

[dougfitz]

To orient a map meant placing the East at the top.

Today, I think it would be more common for the phrase 'orienting a map' to mean turning it so that the map points align with the cardinal points, ie east on the map facing to the east, etc. To this extent, the maps in guides like Brierley's are already pretty much oriented for use by a pilgrim.

The other 'defence' of this layout is that raised by @Kitsambler. With a conventional portrait layout, it is possible to get far more on a strip map by aligning it to the direction of travel. Brierley's mapping is much more in this tradition than anything else. Certainly it is not to scale, and in many places the depiction of the line of the path is very general. But I have been accused of pedantry here already so I won't go into all the details!

 

[Felice]

So East is up on this map.

I took a bit of a liberty to say north was to the left. All I can clearly remember is that the Nile is to the right of Jerusalem, so directions follow from that, but as the map is somewhat distorted, I can't recall what was above Jerusalem.

The thing that strikes you about the mosaic is the representation of Jerusalem at the centre. You notice the orientation of the rest only after that.

If you ever go to Jordan, try and visit Madaba as well as Petra and Wadi Rumm. I imagine that tourist numbers are way down this year. When we last visited 3 years ago, the constant theme we heard was that whilst they welcomed the refugees, their schools and hospitals were way overstretched. 3 years on, I shudder to think how the economy is managing.

 

[Bundeena Kris]

All I know is that the sun rises in the east, sets in the west, and the sun comes through north facing windows....

But I completely agree with @scruffy1 about maps.

Kanga (surname Roo?) everybody knows that, and what a sun it is here in the middle of winter.

 

[dougfitz]

All I know is that the sun rises in the east, sets in the west, and the sun comes through north facing windows....

But, dougfitz, regardless of hemisphere it still rises in the east and sets in the west!

For those who want to see the effect of season and increasing latitude on the direction of the sunrise, here is a site that does that.

 

[Albertagirl]

Orientation can be very individual and very confusing. I have admitted on another thread that I have no sense of direction, but that is actually an over-simplification. I lived most of my adult life in Edmonton, on the south side of the North Saskatchewan River, so "river" and "north" equated for me. After ten years living in Montreal - "river all around," ten years ago I moved to Calgary, on the north side of the Bow River. I still don't know which way is up.

 

[whariwharangi]

I'm one of those people who don't understand how people can't read a map, regardless of how it is oriented. To me, its another form of illiteracy.

 

[Kanga]

Gee @whariwharangi that's harsh! But my husband would agree with you. He says learning to read plans (which includes different planes as well as orientations) is the first thing civil engineers learn. It kills him when he's driving and I'm directing from a map I'm turning round.

 

[jmcarp]

I'm one of those people who don't understand how people can't read a map, regardless of how it is oriented. To me, its another form of illiteracy.

I secretly subscribe to this belief as well, although I try to be politically correct in this instance lest someone should call me illiterate because I can't read music. In my pre-retirement career I was an architect, and you'd be amazed at how many of my clients couldn't "read" a set of building plans, much less visualize them in three dimensions.

 

[Icacos]

I'm fairly sure I read not too long ago that research has shown that some persons' brains are just not wired to read maps. I'm sure we all know perfectly intelligent and educated persons who can't read maps or, as @jmcarp has said, can't read a set of building plans. We all have our strengths and our weaknesses. I don't think literacy has anything to do with it.
Edited for punctuation

 

[Albertagirl]

some person's brains are just not wired to read maps

I suspect that I am one such person, but the brain deficiency is greater than just an inability to read maps. I remember my days in geometry class in secondary school. Each night I would try to do the problems. I would draw each problem and look at it for some time. Ultimately, I might figure out two problems out of six, not necessarily correctly, but at least I would make my best guess. I never did figure out this mysterious thing about shapes, and that certainly applies to maps.

 

[JennyH94]

Kanga (surname Roo?) everybody knows that, and what a sun it is here in the middle of winter.

Hi Bundeena Kris - you have a 'pilgrim cousin' across the water! I'm at Cronulla!
If you have time before you leave, the next Pilgrims in Sydney lunch meeting is Saturday, 1 August, 12 noon, at the City of Sydney RSL Club in George Street, near cnr. Liverpool Street. It would be fantastic if you did have the time to join us all and we could wish you Buen Camino!
Cheers - Jenny

 

[MTtoCamino]

I use to think my internal compass was dead on, till I got very lost in the mountains, never go anywhere without a compass especially cities.

 

[whariwharangi]

Gee @whariwharangi that's harsh! But my husband would agree with you. He says learning to read plans (which includes different planes as well as orientations) is the first thing civil engineers learn. It kills him when he's driving and I'm directing from a map I'm turning round.

You're right of course. Map skill is a learned skill and I guess I learned it when I was quite young. I should have chosen words that are less harsh. No insult is intended.

 

[Kanga]

None taken @whariwharangi . That was a compliment compared to what my husband says (or rather, mutters under his breath).

 

[Felice]

I'm one of those people who don't understand how people can't read a map, regardless of how it is oriented. To me, its another form of illiteracy.

Unfortunately, I suspect that with GPS and satnav, the ability to read a map is going to go the way of being able to use a typewriter or do mental arithmetic. It will become a 'quaint skill', until, of course, technology fails.

 

[scruffy1]

Oh yes they do!!

Words don't lie, people who mis-use them do.

 

[Felice]

I have seen many a GPS user get lost in my mountains. I have also seen a GPS user get disconnected all of a sudden from the satellite while walking in my mountains during the first Gulf War in thick fog. If it had´t been for my map and compass he´d still be lost up there. Luckily I found him walking around in circles for hours.

You always need a compass with a map. They never let you down. I always carry them.

Ondo Ibili !

Absolutely agree with you. That's why it is so unfortunate that fewer and fewer people can read maps. In the UK, plenty of people have gone walking in the Lake District using their phone GPS. What they forget is that phone coverage is not brilliant up there in some places.

 

[bystander]

In my pre-retirement career I was an architect, and you'd be amazed at how many of my clients couldn't "read" a set of building plans, much less visualize them in three dimensions.

Me, too (an architect).
I'm just astonished that you found any clients who could read a set of plans let alone visualise them in 3D.

My personal experience is that many architects can't visualise in 3D either - just look at the unrelated facades of many buildings!

(I don't know how true it is but I was told, when first at architecture school, that less than 5% of the population can think in three dimensions.)

 

[Felice]

Words don't lie, people who mis-use them do.

Words are tools, invented by humans, so they are neutral - they can neither lie nor tell the truth.

They are also fairly poor tools as well. There are plenty of words that mean one thing to me and another to people on the other side of the pond. There are words with several different meanings only distinguishable by context and even then, that is not always enough. There are words that have technical meanings that do not agree with normal usage. And there are words whose meaning has changed over time.

All in all, plenty of scope for mischief, misunderstanding and confusion.

 

[Felice]

Words don't lie, people who mis-use them do.

And as a neat example, take your original post! (And I don't mean you, I mean the person who first used azimuth in Europe)
I looked up way' in the online almaany dictionary. It gave this entry:
Way (method or plan for attaining an object) and in the list of words is سَمْت, samt. For azimuth, the entry is السّمْت, assamt.
The first use of the term in Europe, is apparently in 13th century Spain, when a set of astronomy books used acimut, from السموت, as-samut (with a long u), the plural of samt.
So when we talk about azimuth (in the singular) we are using a borrowed word that means 'the directions' (in the plural).

 

[Urban Trekker]

Not to brag but I can honestly say, I have never been lost. I have been temporarily confused a few times but never lost. In the case of the Caminos I just follow the little yellow arrows and camino markers (see picture on left). The maps in guide books are just that, guides. Their intent is to help guide and keep you on the way. If you must have acurate maps you'll need to get topographical maps of the area your trekking through. Buen Camino

Happy Trails.